SA Firefighter

Ha Jaff you forget I'm already employed as a spin doctor I work in OHS for a large multinational - do you really think we do anything else? :wink:

Quite right Firefrog - there are many volumns written on human behaviour & the causes of incidents. Even down to the design of control panels, layout of equipment, logical sequences etc. For example we had a double fatal the other night (it started as a search). The cause will be human error, however they were foreign students (who drive on the wrong side of the road), brand new car(familiarity with equipment), poorly lit windy road with sharp corners & a large unprotected irrigation channel. The root cause will be driver error (speed+alcohol), however there are a number of contributing factors which if removed may have prevented their deaths or at least reduced the severity - including the channel being full of water to celibrate the 50th birthday of the weir! Normally it would have been empty at this time of year. As an aside the nuclear power industry did some land mark research on this subject (for obvious reasons) in the 60's, petrochemical & aviation has followed as well as the US navy, to try and reduce the likelyhood of human error. And finally if you think about the control of a major incident, a look at the amount of information coming in & going out (inputs/outputs)& decisions that have to be made (& timeframes)people wonder why there are mistakes/ or their radio call isn't answer immediately! Some thing to consider!
cheers

Thanks Andrew, an interesting read. And a pretty poor "snap shot" of the organisations involved & interesting that one of the comments of the UFU was a single service is a long term vision - & the replies to that comment!
Interesting times ahead I think :wink:

I doubt it Gasman - the fire services hardly ever acknowledge the existance of SES officially in any state. SAMFS actually works with SESSA cat 2 USAR operators(incase you didn't already know), so I doubt that is the problem - more likely too many applicants not enough spaces. As Jaff said keep trying & good luck next time :-)
cheers

Hmmm - yes Numbers I see what you mean :-)
Sooo are these new pagers going to have a tracking device?
Thought it may be handy for resource tracking etc :wink:
Or even better they could transmit subliminal messages - you know along the lines of"the government is great! everything is peachy!, all hail SAFECOM!!!".
Sorry Robert - just not sure how new pagers will fix the issues discussed in this thread, you are actually lucky to have the ones you do (or any at all!).
Anyhow - time to put the evil twin away & move on with some sensible stuff :-D
(hope you get the new pagers soon Robert - without the Spook mods of course)
cheers have a good one :wink:

So you are using a RFA type system? - about time, as for AIIMS it is taking too long to implement. Mate I have heard about AIIMS type structures within SES for ages (remember I've only been gone less than 12 months) & the Request for assistance stuff may have been used by HQ but not at any of the events I was associated with (not in a formal way anyway). The trouble is everything is taking too long - for example I notice that a swift water rescue team has been developed - marvelous! We have it here to - difference is the course is available to all who have flood boats & are fit!
Eventhough I don't believe in throwing heaps of money & technology at every conceivable problem, there are some very good simple systems about the place that SESSA & SA in general could adopt (without having to reverse engineer/re-invent). It shouldn't be too hard to use an online system, that can generate RFA's locally & resource track, task track & monitor crews from any LHQ in the state. Afterall we were almost there already :wink: (saw some pretty cool resource/ task tracking on one of the tasks wew were on a while ago!)
Anyway mate keep up the good work - see ya :-)

Not quite Crash - you also mentioned to set up regional comcens/cads etc (like the Americans do). But as far as sectorising command & control locally yep similar idea - in-fact it is already covered off in some of the training we already do & is already done (just no body makes a big song & dance about it). And it was how large operations were managed prior to the advent of personal PC & mobile phones.
So no you dont have to wrap anything in Glad wrap :wink:
You still exist numbers? Nice to hear from you again :-D

Ah now you may have nailed it Jaff! Storm/Flood events that are not occuring in Adelaide are not managed the same way as a normal day. Normally a Field HQ is setup (Renmark, Pinnaroo)etc. The tasks are handled by that HQ & the tasks are given out either by voice or radio (on an allocated TG) & yes AF does still pass on tasks but the local HQ deals them out (that would handle the brigades/units that can't attend e.g. default pages)as the HQ would know what resources it has & what is coming. The RFA system formalises this process even further, every task is documented & a "pink" handed to the responding crew. It has the task, address & other info on it - this helps to free's up the radio network.
Also this allows for multi agency crews to attend the task, with the right number of people & the right mix of skills & equipment. I understood Adelaide events can be managed the same way - once the HQ group becomes operational of course. Bare in mind RFA's are not used in SA - yet! This system works elsewhere as well, it ensures proper allocation of resources, proper prioritisation & enough relief crews to provide extended operations over days or weeks e.g QLD/NSW Flood/storm events. If you think about it similar to what crash was talking about. It is a pity that this system isn't used more often. cheers

Fair enough Zippy - sometimes I wonder whether moving was really worth it(trouble is I've signed on with the devil now so I'm stuck :wink: ) However new responsibilities will mean I will be spending more time in SA - for now! And no won't be renewing my membership of the SA emergency services :-D
Yep its a big call & until the smoke clears (pardon the very poor pun), I would be keeping well away from the emergency services in Vic.
cheers

Think they were advertising a few weeks ago Zippy - so why didn't you apply?

No Crash at what point did I say "can't trust the overseas types"?
And the 132500 number is the NATIONAL number for storm & flood emergencies (last time I checked SA was part of Australia) - why do you find that a problem?
If the population actually used the above number for that purpose then 000 would not over flow during storm events!
I didn't say decentralisation was a bad idea but it ain't happening in this country & have a look at the areas in the US (who do major emergency management so well), they have huge populations. If you decentralise CAD/COMMS how do you coordinate? how do you equip them? how do you fund them? Yes there needs to be improvements, but as I said previously there is a big Investigation currently going on over the border & have a feeling that when the recommendations come out of it that a lot of what we are talking about here will be examined by SAFECOM & the Chiefs (just like in every other state) to ensure that the same mistakes/problems are not repeated. And the last I heard SA was looking at the NSW RFA system (which is live online) for storm/flood/tempest events. This would also free up the comcen/dispatch system. So yes there are solutions, including getting rid of the filtered states in the first place so we can have one system & use regions rather than stupid artificial state borders for "sectorising".
cheers

No mate - just reflecting on some stuff I did about teamwork & change management(3 day leadership cse) & the fact that you can't have a successful team if everything is in the negative. And a wise person on this site (wouldn't know who they might be :wink: )gave me some very sage advice a while ago when I had a very black outlook on the emergency services in SA. So whilst I agree that things are not perfect & should be improved, people need to remember where we were (by the way things are not perfect here either - had to borrow a ute from council as ours wasn't allowed to be driven!). And with some other potential changes coming latter in the year in SA, it might not pay to be seen as the naysayers all of the time - if you know what I mean! And everyone is quite right - quietly accepting below standard performance isn't the way to go, starting fights over every conceivable subject isn't either (fight the important fights & the one you are guaranteed to win was what I was always told). Anyway mate take it easy cheers

So Zippy & Crash are you promoting the Vic model? The same one that is being criticised in the commission now? And you keep pointing to a Summer time "big one" - that may not be the incident that will cause the call/comm centre to fall over - think earthquake, tempest that sought of thing. And having sub comm cens located in rural/semi rural areas would have to be co-ordinated a lot better than the Vic model
Finally yeah we were all sad to see the demise of the local SAAS comcen, however its happened move on! The same thing is happening in every state, comms being centralised in the city, why? cost & control. As I said the system ain't perfect & there is always room for improvement - but there are much bigger issues. You can have a 21 century communications system, not much point when you have nothing to dispatch :wink:
For emergency help in floods and storms, call the SES on 132 500  :wink:
cheers

No Jaff I don't support mediocrity - far from it! However as Bajdas said"there is a plan", it also seemed to work. And I would have thought not being tasked to MVA's in a timely matter, responding to task with untrained/poorly trained crews, responding with less than the minimum crew numbers, responding with inappropriate/out of date/damaged equipment was more likely see you in front of a coroner! And is OHS (Stop take five) trg being delivered to the troops, is OHS covered off on the teamleaders course yet? These are the thing that you will be hung on, as Andrew said when there was an emergency it was handled promptly.
There is always a bit of confusion at the start of an event (its part of the forming part of team building). And there is no need to rush about, afterall it still takes time to get things organised (as you know :wink: )
So I just curious what the real agenda is here - more operators? more money? more embarrassment for the government/Safecom? Does anyone know has SA adopted the excellent NSW RFA system?  I agree there is always room for improvement, but at least acknowledge that things have improved :-) cheers

Jaff, reading with interest what's coming out of the Black Saturday Inquest & this thread - both highlight the fact that the system can be overloaded.
400 plus jobs? Not a bad effort - Sydney/Newcastle 19000+, so I guess it really is scale!
The comcen answers to your questions were quite correct, prioritise & keep on calling! I'm not sure where you are heading with your recent threads, seems like you want major improvement (in fact a perfect world) & has been pointed out previously it may not be possible :wink:
Finally I too would like to express my best wishes & a speedy recovery to the person who was injured & a well done to all who were active yesterday.
cheers

Guys, you are confusing the difference between an audit & a checklist(very nice by the way Mallee). Audits(both internal & external) are a systems check & are usually carried out by an independant auditor (whether internal or external like SAI Global). The checklists are just that, used to see how things are progressing (or not). If you wanted a good 'snap shot' of how you particular brigade/station/unit stacks up, get hold of the WorkcoverSA Self Insurance Audit, the National Self Insurer Audit tool or Safety Map. This will high light how well the system is working but not the physical environment. As all emergency services in SA are self insured you would quickly see what an audit is! However having been through an audit in the private sector & seen how they are conducted in the public sector - I don't know!!!! :roll: No audit has legal standing except to provide evidence of performance/ lack of. This is due to the fact that an audit is a perception thing & everyone is different regardless of how well developed the audit tool is! (or how well trained the the tool is  :wink: )
But as I said those checklists are good & provide vital evidence for when things go bad - "yes we have reported that faulty door 3 times & nothing was done & here is the evidence!" Keep up the good work guys - cheers

Really!!! - filtered hell! And I so dislike bean counters :-D Can't say anything about parking inspectors though :wink: I think I may have JUST "burned" any chance of getting a job with SAFECOM :wink:

When I say front line I mean operational planning, training, operational management, & the conduct of operations.
SAFECOM should be administration, payroll, assets, combined OHS, Workers comp etc.
I get your point Alan, but the government is very good at arse covering & thats what Due diligence is - protecting your arse by knowing what you have that can bite you! In the broader sense of the words anyway (not just the stuff the bean counters go on about).
I thought that is what SAFECOM was formed for, to look after the combined administration functions of the 3 services - so that the 3 services could focus on the operational side! Even tenders, contracts, hire & fire(sacking) could be handled by them. They could even look after the RTO side of things instead of having 3 RTO's & the administration that goes with that! But at least they are starting to do something!
cheers

Fair point Crash 80%? Thinking of total numbers of paid CFS staff the subs gained wouldn't be worth the hassle - unless you wanted some influence within :wink: You wipe your arse on cotton? In fact most of the cotton water has been bought by the feds!
It's about time SAFECOM did something constructive, I find it incredible that the it has taken this long to actually audit what they have!
The front line services should be focused on well front line stuff!
It is normal when an organisation "inherits" assets, the first thing they do is risk assess what they have. Its called Due Diligence, otherwise how do you know if you have just bought a lemon so to speak? Anyway hopefully they will notice the faulty toilet block at Berri (including the moving walls) & that one toilet for females is not suitable for a regional office, incident management facility or regional training facility :-)
Hopefully it will all work out well for the services in SA - good luck!

And you Crash would know that it is quite easy for a union to change its rules to allow for more members e.g. CFS Staff! Other unions are doing this as I speak to get into new turf (=more funds).
You actually quoted the qualifier -"if its true", which I would doubt, afterall everyone knows how well the union looks after the retained guys :wink: Why would CFS staff pay fees to an organisation, that isn't really that powerful in SA?
Finally Crash - not sure about the garden centre comment - but there would be no point as there is no water in SA to grow gardens anyway :-D

Exactly Jaff, unions can be beaten just as easily as associations - management call it divide & conquer! If the service/government do feel threatened by recent bad press (I doubt it) then watch the real "trinkets" come out(new toys for those who are vocal)!
And you are right of course if people aren't happy with their association, fix it!
In retrospect I regret my actions against our association at the time (bad advice for someone I respected) - instead we should have joined and changed within!
And if all else fails, drive the vehicles to North tce and chuck all of the keys in a big bucket :-D

From memory 20 minutes wasn't exactly acceptable, just common! There are common themes across the state, however some brigades may not like the solutions.
Skills maintenance, equipment, buildings & training should be at a standard across the state based on risk & locations. But along with that must be an minimum standard for brigade/unit training, responses etc & there must be accountability!
I think that may be a bone of contention.
cheers

Great idea CFS staff joining the UFU (if its true), however be very careful being a vollie & joining the UFU not unless you want to see less vollies & more payed firies (remember the comments of the Victorian UFU after Black Saturday & the UFU campaign against the VRA in NSW). It goes against the union ethos to do something for nothing! And if you think working for the public sector is bad then the unions aren't much better. Far better to find out where the money has been spent, eg how much money was budgeted for training, how much training was planned & how much was delivered. There would be a start, another would be why CFS/SES stations cost far more to build than an equivilant "normal" buildings. The sweet heart state fleet deal that the emergency services were forced  into.
Anyway my guess is that senior staff will have more than enough to worry about, when the findings of the Black Saturday inquest are released.
cheers

And there lies your problem Bill, the public sees what looks like an abuse of privileges at the same time the CFS is asking for more money. The MFS on the other hand never complains about lack of resources, the union does! And the public can see the difference (most people are aware of how unions are supposed to work).
SAAS are the same, never complain - the union does their complaining for them when required :wink:
But when CFS wants money - it is reported as CFS officers/spokeperson are complaining. When the only people who should be saying anything on behalf of the vollies is the association/s. And sorry but the paid staff argument should be separated from the complaints of the volunteers. Instead maybe their union (if they have one) should be arguing for more staff, better conditions etc. The only time payed staff should be spoken of by the association, is "these tasks were once done by payed staff & now they are not". Finally your argument about being on call but having a family life, would not wash with the majority of the public as there are many in the private sector who are "on call" but don't get a tax payer funded company car to drive around in. They usually either a) get a car as part of their package or b) salary sacrifice one! I know it sucks but the public only sees what it wants to see - afterall it is their money thats being spent :wink: cheers

Thanks Alan - I was aware of your first point (even my HR manager has told me that :wink: )Due to some recent internal changes within our division (news release Friday re: NFL Riverland & redundancies & my boss quitting on Tuesday), I will be approaching senior management for reclassification ASAP.
Yep done some research - RFS & CFA has some jobs which would use my particular talents, however in SA there doesn't seem to be any vacancies within the EM sector.
As for your second point - I was aware of those points (the question was aimed at the general audience as a counter point to the argument on pay levels).
And knowing paid staff & vollies who have applied for paid positions, I know the reality of how much they get stuffed about & what some of them are expected to do!
The post was to point out that just because the pay might not be right, it doesn't mean that working in the public sector is all bad - as you quite rightly pointed out.
Anyway I will keep my eye out for any vacancies (I might be seriously looking for a new job in the near future depending on the outcome of point one :wink: ) cheers