SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Alex on September 14, 2009, 11:11:56 PM
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filtered hell boys, lets all get over it. there is an RCR directory that decides where everyone goes... this was signed off on by all services... now grow up, we cant all have all the gear and be into everything.
Eeeerrr... and isnt the latest that east torrens gets disolved and merged with other groups in the giant reshuffle anyway? Then you can all be friends, no little empires to protect.
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Eeeerrr... and isnt the latest that east torrens gets disolved and merged with other groups in the giant reshuffle anyway? Then you can all be friends, no little empires to protect.
You must have waaaaaaaaay different mail too mine!
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so we havent all seen the little map yet? made its way to us at training tonight and wow... although im sure its not exactly what will end up happening, some very interesting things to be seen. for those in region one with no clue what im talking about, think 12 groups being reshuffled into about six.
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Thats gonna stir more scheiße than it will remove.
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An interesting map to be sure, to be sure.
Some of it made no sense at all. Random squiggly lines on a map designed to
provoke "discussion" perhaps? Other bits might be what should have happened
10 years ago but didn't.
I'd say 6 groups in R1 is unrealistic ambit claim by the bean counters.
Intolerable workload on groupies. Serious North Tce parking lot material if
forced through.
8 or 9 groups is more realistic, allowing for a South Coast Group, and some
randomly altered squiggly lines in the north.
Who remembers the recent Regional Directive that command-cars-present-with-
strike-teams can/may/will-be-commandeered-by-the-IMT-for-management-purposes ?
Now imagine 1/3 of R1's group vehicles eliminated from "the system" by a stroke
of an administrative pen. And also the Groupies who did the work.
Same is planned/proposed for the other 5 regions, or so the story goes.
All in the name of cost cutting.
Meanwhile, the political capital tied up in hideously expensive leased aircraft
continues to grow. As I understand it, we could have an extra 6 or 8 AT802Fs
with the money that goes into leasing a single Aircrane. Enough to give first response air cover to the mid north & riverland, not just SE, MLR & EP.
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I saw the map last night, seems very interesting.
Merging the Mawson and Kyeema Groups (ex Happy Valley who now end up in Sturt Group) would create a Group doing around 1500 jobs a year, who would want to be the Group Officer of that ?? Not to mention the Group Finance or Admin officer. You would really want a paid support person to be doing a lot of that of admin stuff for a group of that size, your looking after about 500 people!!
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I saw the map last night, seems very interesting.
Merging the Mawson and Kyeema Groups (ex Happy Valley who now end up in Sturt Group) would create a Group doing around 1500 jobs a year, who would want to be the Group Officer of that ?? Not to mention the Group Finance or Admin officer. You would really want a paid support person to be doing a lot of that of admin stuff for a group of that size, your looking after about 500 people!!
Yeah that is very unpractical...
500 people....thats out of volunteer league, thats over half of the MFS personnel..
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MODS suggest you create another thread "Region 1 group boundary rationalisation proposal" as the current flavour of this thread has changed from original post and this current subject will gather steam!
Burnside being part of East Torrens should stop the nuff nuffs fighting! :-D
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Well if they want 6 groups they can staff them with paid staff and leave us vols to fight the fires, you can't expect a volly to manage a super group..........
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Imagine how much money could be saved by installing paid Groupies - people
answerable to the minister rather than the vols...
"We want to buy a..."
"NO"
"We need a..."
"NO"
:evil:
Then there is the reduced time impost on Regions & HQ in arguing / discussing
issues with vols. The hired lackey does what they are told. I'd suggest it
would all need to be handled verrrry carefully to avoid a walkout by a large
number of those pesky volunteers...
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Maybe they wouldn't mind losing those pesky vols, they don't like us now, so what would it matter if we walked out :-(
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Well if they want 6 groups they can staff them with paid staff and leave us vols to fight the fires, you can't expect a volly to manage a super group..........
Here we go already now Darrens group is a "super group", well I bet my group will be superer, maybe even the superest! :-D
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I can hear it now, Adelaide Fire, This is ACDC Group Duty Officer Over...
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Maybe they wouldn't mind losing those pesky vols, they don't like us now, so what would it matter if we walked out :-(
Aaah Darren, i know why your upset... I would be to.
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So being a glass half full kinda guy(slow drinker :wink:), what would be the positive aspects of the rationalisation?
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Errrrrrrrm, save on stationary and GO taxi's (Group cars) ?
Less GRN talkgroups?
Less group AGM's for Region staff to attend ?
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Fewer GO's to argue with, and take up precious paid staff time, on irrelevancies such as response capability & community safety... :evil:
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Fewer GO's to argue with, and take up precious paid staff time, on irrelevancies such as response capability & community safety... :evil:
I hope for the 13 Brigade Groups, that Two Group Officers & 4 Deputies come into existance...and a north/south duty officer system. A Single person just cant keep up with the going on's with 13 separate brigades...
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so we havent all seen the little map yet? made its way to us at training tonight and wow... although im sure its not exactly what will end up happening, some very interesting things to be seen. for those in region one with no clue what im talking about, think 12 groups being reshuffled into about six.
is the map and the proposal available electronicaaly so that it can be posted here for all to see or is this just CJM RC1 wanking on again?
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is the map and the proposal available electronicaaly so that it can be posted here for all to see or is this just CJM RC1 wanking on again?
A bit harsh PJ
I hope that the idea flows to the rest of the regions as some of the regions have some group boundaries that just don't make any sense no more. With councils that have amalgamation and the change in funding the old boundtries just don't cut it.
Then again it is the spring horse racing carnival upon us so it would not be surprising some power jockeys have decided to mount up for pleasing their need for control.
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Interesting concept.
Some comments from a Volly NOT in Region 1.
i understand the concerns raised re some body looking after brigades doing 1500 jobs a year and perhaps loosing some command cars etc.
on the other side some good comments re the number of GO regions would have to "deal" with etc. might make it easier for all to operate
When you have such a large diversity in number of brigades in groups i can understand why such a proposal has been floated (i expect it to go to all regions in due time)I think one of the smallest groups has 4 brigades(5 appliances) (2 command/ logistical vehicles) up to the largest with i think 20 brigades (23 appliances) and 4 command/ logistical vehicles. The "balance" is just not there.
The point raised re no one would want to be the GO etc in "super" groups all boils down to 2 words
Delegation and
Management
The GO needs to Manage the group, and he needs to delegate responsibilities out to others.(not happening in some groups)
Now i know these comments will cause some discussion but that is what this forum is for isn't.?
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Simple answer to the problem is start all over again. Don't both consulting with group as they are just protect themselves start with the Brigades as they know who are like minded in their ways.
In fact the CFS may already have the data in terms of those incident statistics so they have a tool to confirm what the brigade say.
BUT this is the biggie so floating the nice idea and now provide the real facts rather than the hot air blah blah blah. If you say you are going to do it then do it. We don't need any more hot plasters as we have plenty of them called politicians!
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So back to my question . Is there a map & document available electronically that can be posted here or is this all bull shite? (see picture)ephemeralthoughts.com/tag/humor/
So far no-ne has provided any evidence to suggest otherwise! At the moment it is all being tossed around with huge amounts of emotion etc.
I think before long, daisies and other plants will be growing out of this thread due to the high amont of fertiliser.
There you go the challenge is out there to prove me wrong :evil:
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PJ - the map and theory behind it exists... don't know about an electronic copy floating around, or if only the groupies have the handout.
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All group officer should have a copy of the map, that went to the meeting.
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so what ever happened to the bastion of Resource Management....AIIMS, and the span of control concept.
You know....you can only effectively manage 5 resources before u sectorise etc etc.... or do we conveniently forgoe principles when there is $$ concerned?..
GOs are pissed with the way it was dumped on them at the last minute, with little time for discussion with the person concerned (who did the dumping)......with management skills like that, no wonder its behind the popular opinuion curve and unlikely to catch up.
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so what ever happened to the bastion of Resource Management....AIIMS, and the span of control concept.
You know....you can only effectively manage 5 resources before u sectorise etc etc.... or do we conveniently forgoe principles when there is $$ concerned?..
The counting of beans is done in base 10, not base 5.
Therefore it is not subject to arcane operational concerns such as span of control.
And yes, a great many principles are forgone by a great many people when there is $$ involved... :-D
cheers
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I can see a lot more people opting to stay at the yellow helmet level.
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we are still talking about a document that may or may not exist. Well my money is on it doesn't exist.
As we would sure have a GO who is part of this forum with the document and they may or may not have a available to them a scanner that would allow them scan and post the document concerned.
If they are going to be putting more on the red helmets guess what logic or in the CFS case fuzzy logic tells me that yellow helmets will be getting a lot more piled on top of them. I be sticking to what I have got.
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Our captain mentioned that the documentation had been sighted at a group meeting, but was not allowed to be released.... apparently it promptly left with the GO...
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fridgemagnet it is out in the wild this document, I have seen it.
Not sure why it is a big secret
Oh, yes i am. the document plan is cr@p
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Its these sort of *severe* changes that CFS have filtered up in the past, and are continuing too...
i can hear those worms in the can wanting fresh air!!!
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Yes I have also seen the document, its a PDF map with lines drawn around the proposed areas, from what I can see, lofty, kyeema, Onkaparinga, mundoo and victor group cease to exist, with brigades broken up and sent to other groups. As to the new names, I guess we will wait and see. Assuming all this goes ahead.
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As the Fridgemagnet said surely somone has a copy that could be scanned?
all we need is someone with Balls .
Otherwise my theory of its all crap is TRUE
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From the map I have, it's as follows:
Group 1
Athelstone
Basket Range
Carey Gully
Cherryville
Greenhill
Montacute
Norton Summit / Ashton
Piccadilly
Summertown and District
Aldgate
Burnside
Stirling
Group 2
Belair
Blackwood
Cherry Gardens
Coromandel Valley
Eden Hills
Ironbank
Bradbury
Upper Sturt
Happy Valley
Group 3
Brukunga
Echunga
Hahndorf
Littlehampton
Mount Barker
Nairne
Bridgewater
Mylor
Lenswood / Forest Range
Lobethal
Oakbank / Balhannah
Woodside
Group 4
American River
Western Districts
Haines / Macgillivray
Kingscote
Parndana
Penneshaw & District
Wisanger
Group 5
Aldinga Beach
McLaren Vale
Range / Hope Forest
Sellicks
Willunga
Yundi
Blewitt Springs
Clarendon
Kangarilla
McLaren Flat
Morphett Vale
Seaford
Group 6
Mount Compass
Middleton
Port Elliot
Cape Jervis
Hay Flat
Inman Valley
Myponga District
Parawa
Rapid Bay & District
Yankalilla and District
Hindmarsh Valley
Lower Inman Valley
Waitpinga
Group 7
Ashbourne
Blackfellows Creek
Clayton
Langhorne Creek
Milang
Strathalbyn
Woodchester
Currency Creek
Meadows
Macclesfield
Goolwa
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Have a look at the map again, Burnside had no home.
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The post list is correct, the map is slightly out!
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Just like the plan, slightly out
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Screw it, just merge Group 1 + 2 + 3...
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Or just go Yankee style and get rid of Groups altogether, just brigades with their own chiefs their own budgets and their own set of rules - actually that almost sounds like the way some are run now.
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For thems as hasn't, I've applied the lists above to a map.
The mainland ones anyway. KI's boundaries are pretty much self-defining.... :-D
Anyway, it looks pretty much like the original.
In my opinion, some of the revisions make sense. Much of it does not.
Incidentally, the original was on A3 - not too many brigade or domestic
scanners would handle A3 I think.
Before this could be done, sect.68 of the SAFECOM Act would need to be complied
with - dissolving of SACFS organisations. To turn 12 into 6, 6 Groups would
have to be dissolved. the Act says mucho consultations with community, CFSVA &
members. Also says that the matter must be put to a vote at a public meeting.
However, it says the CO can ignore the results of any vote, but must provide a
written report to the minister... Methinks it would need to be a -very- good
business case put to community, MPs & minister to push this through without
handing the opposition a large knobbly stick with which to beat the Govt.
cheers
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Q: How will this affect established & upcoming Level 3 IMT Group Bases.
Q: Will there be a need to broaden the Group duty Officer role, to a North/south DO role...to ensure local knowledge is among duty officers...
Q: By how much will Volunteer Hours on Non-operational work increase? two fold??
Q: What are the chances of CFS pulling this off without stuffing up.
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Well this is starting to maek a fair bit of rational sense. it might even allow us to have a normal alarm system rather than a 4th alarm calling in group strike teams.
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Well this is starting to maek a fair bit of rational sense. it might even allow us to have a normal alarm system rather than a 4th alarm calling in group strike teams.
These are proposed administrative boundaries nothing else, Cascading responses and strike teams would still function as (ab)normal.....I believe
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i mean more as currently a 4th alarm is a Strike team often from another group and hence not closest trucks. it would make it easier to have a 4th alarm be 2 more trucks 5th be 2 more etc.
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One region in discussion about changes in the boundries only five more to go till we have a sensible management system in place and common through all the regions
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Alan J must have the Balls spoken about earlier. Has anyone noticed that these groups have more than twice the span of control 1:5 some are 1:12 ????
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Span of control form operation point of view yes it has been exceeded. If we have 1 GO but how many DGO will there be.
If we have a group of 12 with 3 DGO's then the ratio is 1:4. The sad but highly like fact that this is driven by the almighty $ not from an operation point of view. From an ops point of view this has worked quite well in some of the other regions that have groups of 10 or more brigades quite well for the last few years. Maybe the groups with five or less brigade are not the flavour of the month as they are to expensive to run.
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True Mallee fire, but, if you look at Groups with large numbers of brigades, the bulk of those brigades attend less than 20 calls a year - often less than 10 calls a year, with perhaps one more brigade doing 50 calls a year, and maybe one doing 100 calls a year.
So some existing large groups do less calls as a group, than one busy Adelaide Hills brigade.
So while there are Groups with 20 odd brigades in them, the call out rate is much lower, and hence less operational work required by GO's.
Put 20 of the busy brigades together, then the GO's & DGO's can potentially have a massive operational & administrative workload!!
Pip
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Somebody can't read very well... I merely mapped out the list posted by Hicks
Flat. I didn't scan in The Map. Have only seen a copy - don't possess one.
In theory, these changes should make little difference to responses.
Not if the nearest available appropriate resource is genuinely being applied in
response plans.
Where it's a killer is in administrative work-load for Groupies. While some can
probably be devolved to DGO's, there will be a bucket-load of extra travel time
for good GO's who keep up with all their Brigades. Any savings in Group
vehicles is a complete crock of bovine manure - it will be even more essential
that all DGO's, and probably some other group admin positions will need regular
and extensive access to a vehicle. That is unless the savings are to be
achieved by transferring postage & delivery costs from Region budget into Group
budgets and volunteers' personal costs.
IF groupies were full-time paid employees of the service, there would be some
savings here in labour costs. But as Groupies are vollies, my take is that savings
are an illusion, or at worst, a cynical push of costs out of the regional admin
balance sheet & into the the (reduced) Group budgets & personal pockets.
Q. isn't March 2010 a state election ?
cheers
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Q. isn't March 2010 a state election ?
cheers
ahhh....what guy Al....always with the salient points..lol
does this mean that the next working bee at Salisbury the boys had better have clean PPE for the media camera run?
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Are the libs offering anything better?
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Are the libs offering anything better?
Anything is better than what we are getting now.
Remembering that the leader of the libs is from the hills area.
I think we would be better off.
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Remembering that the leader of the libs is from the hills area.
I think we would be better off.
Yeah, and the Labor leader is a CFS vol. Don't get your hopes up.
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If memory serves me right we had a few minsters and leaders who have been members of an emergency service we are lead to believe or have lived in CFS area like
Brokenshirer
Brown
Olsen
and the list can go on beyond my blank memory or interesting pollies
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Are the libs offering anything better?
Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum.
So probably not.
However, I am merely suggesting that any push to change is unlikely before the
end of fire season 09/10. Not good electioneering to have the non-metro
electorates with their dander up & crying "Foul!!" Quite aside from the
admin nightmare which the Act says is the responsibility of the Chief Officer
to arrange, chair & sign-off. I'd suggest Euan may have other issues on his
plate at the moment.
On top of that, the Act says that every Group WILL have a Group Officer and
from 1 to 3 deppitty GO's. Kinda hard for a group to comply with the Act if no-
one puts their hand up to be elected. Would look slightly egg-on-face-ish
if the CFS had a very public (by law) party, and were very publicly told to
stick it where the sun don't shine...
Of course, after the election, IF the minister is involved, expect the corporate
gloves to come off...
Perhaps the real plot is to abolish Groups altogether ? As in: "Divide & Conquer".
Isn't this second-guessing game fun !!?
cheers
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Jeeeez, it got political real quick, arent we just looking at the pro's and con's of a group boundary rationalisation proposal?, not bringing the government to its knees!
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how many bikies can we rustle up out of the cfs ;)
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Jeeeez, it got political real quick, arent we just looking at the pro's and con's of a group boundary rationalisation proposal?, not bringing the government to its knees!
Not exactly.
More like the GO's were handed a map at the very end of a weekend conference &
told "this is what we want - make it happen". I heard this instruction/request
was repeated the following weekend at another gathering, but have no details.
Political ?
Money supply to government departments is always political.
I note in the Act, by omission rather than by expression, that the community
and organisation consultation palaver can be avoided if the volunteers go up
to the CFS with a request for a boundary change. Whereas, if the CFS officially
initiates the change, it has to be 'sold' to the community, the brigades AND the
sitting member for the area.(politics again - right there in the Act!!)
So, CFS attempts to convince the volunteers that they want to initiate the
change. So far, not terribly successfully...
cheers
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Mr Martin tells us that he was brought into region 1 to shake things up and put us back in our place, also to save money. I guess this is all part of the grand plan.
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Mr Martin tells us that he was brought into region 1 to shake things up and put us back in our place, also to save money. I guess this is all part of the grand plan.
given the crapfight in the media in the last 6-12 months....I'd be guessing whoever is doing his annual reviews SHOULD be putting lots of crosses, not ticks down then wouldn't they./.
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Politics only creates the smoke screen that something would of or had happen all for reelection. The result is what we have now and instead of art it is all in the eye of the beholder. If volunteers are meant to do then it will never happen were to busy complaining about the problems rather than looking for solutions and then making it happen
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posture posture posture, so as an organisation that works in a dynamic environments and constantly(as per SOPs) evaluating our safety(sic) and situation, does this discussion paper have merit! Teritorial and grandiose plans aside! :-)
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G'day Jaff
As Region/HQ are proposing the change, it is up to them to do the cost/benefit analysis.
So far, it would appear that all which has been presented is a demand for
change for its own sake. And a demand that volunteers put up the time, effort,
& costs of developing both the change and the business case for it.
Not good enough.
Remember too, that CFS volunteers already did a major rearrangement of Region 1
Groups only 10 years ago. While there may well be a case for some minor
alterations to that restructure, have things *really* changed so much that we
need to do all that again?
cheers
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G'day Jaff
As Region/HQ are proposing the change, it is up to them to do the cost/benefit analysis.
So far, it would appear that all which has been presented is a demand for
change for its own sake. And a demand that volunteers put up the time, effort,
& costs of developing both the change and the business case for it.
Not good enough.
Remember too, that CFS volunteers already did a major rearrangement of Region 1
Groups only 10 years ago. While there may well be a case for some minor
alterations to that restructure, have things *really* changed so much that we
need to do all that again?
cheers
maybe our life would be easier if we re-arranged Regions :wink:
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finally the best idea has shown itself!!
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Now were on the money change the regions.
If memory serves me right this may be a bit of a problems not for the volunteer for the paid staff members. Government boundaries have shifted already except for the CFS in Regions 2 and 4 where some staff might of been displaced. This has it own problems those that are displaced what do you do with.
Considering the liner between the services (SAAS, SES and CFS) is blurring rapidly for me maybe we should start thinking about a new services. This is no mater a case of through the baby out with the bathwater so to speak but a matter of improving the bathing of that baby.
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Not exactly.
More like the GO's were handed a map at the very end of a weekend conference &
told "this is what we want - make it happen". I heard this instruction/request
was repeated the following weekend at another gathering, but have no details.
the story now is that it is merely a proposal or a starting point for discussions (who can say if that's back-pedalling in the face of many grumpy GOs). Anyway here's the map, had to reduce it quite a bit so it's not very good quality.