SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: car31 on November 22, 2007, 10:37:07 AM
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I was just on the promo site and looking at the call statics for 06/07. For the year Morphett Vale did 460 calls and Salisbury did 445, i could not see too many other brigades that came close to this. The concern I then had was looking at the equipment that these two brigades are running, they both have old 24p's that probally run to the majority of those 440+ job's, Why does the CFS not recognise this and issue them with new 34P's or type two pumpers, these two brigades are pulling higher stats than some MFS brigades and look at the equipment they are having to work with to do this, hardly seems right. I would suggest that their 24P's are no longer the right applinace for them to run with for the workloads and type of jobs they are attending on a daily basis.
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I think strategically, Morphett vale and Salisbury have the right appliances. MFS do cover a lot of the area with 2WD pumpers, while the CFS brigades offer off road capability.
Something similar to Dalkeith 34P would suit them...being a PTO/Pump&roll pump. Have to wait and see..over the next few financial years.
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sure Matt could confirm, but im under the impression MV are getting a type 2 sometime in the nearish future???
but as Zippy said, it comes down to SFECs and i guess in theory (or at least on paper) these brigades have the correct appliances to cover there patches...
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The concern I then had was looking at the equipment that these two brigades are running, they both have old 24p's that probally run to the majority of those 440+ job's, Why does the CFS not recognise this and issue them with new 34P's or type two pumpers, these two brigades are pulling higher stats than some MFS brigades and look at the equipment they are having to work with to do this, hardly seems right.
Vote 1 for GD as Prime Minister.
Morphett Vale 24P did 337 runs out of the 460 we did last year, and our 24 goes on most of the strike teams in Region One and has travelled interstate a number of times, it is currently 17 years old and is up to 55,000 kms. As a regular strike team vehicle we would really prefer a dual cab with some of the more modern safety features.
If you look at the risks in our area you will see we have a reasonable amount of B and A class risks. We have 15 premises with boosters, some of which are six in six out, we have a couple of multi story buildings as well as approximately 25,000 residents in our primary response zone. Unfortunately our 24P has proved on a number of occasion's that is not up to the rigours of heavy duty boosting or relay pumping, we have also run out of room to carry any more equipment on it and have stuff left off of it that we would like to carry.
They make an ok appliance for a small country town that is not likely to ever have to boost but for a busy urban environment they are slow and the pump is poorly configured. Our own tests using highly calibrated equipment showed the 1900LPM pump only able to deliver around 1600LPM at its peak, I think some of the plumbing from the pump could be to blame for the loss in performance.
The good news is that Region are currently working with us and have been quite supportive of our push to replace one of our appliances with a more suitable urban vehicle. Whether it gets through the Strategic Leadership Group (SLG) or not is another question, once dollars are discussed things can change very quickly.
A change in the mix of appliances we have is fairly likely, hopefully all will be revealed in the next 6 - 12 months.
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We've been told were getting a pumper, but it's in the 8 year plan. :lol:
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"there is no funding and there is no plan" stated a famous person.
Its all about how much effort our brigade is prepared to put in towards justifying your needs. Also there is a lot of luck involved. Morphett Vale can easily justify a type 2, getting it is a different thing. Especially when they aren't building any. The least they could do is turn over those brigades appliances regularly. They have missed the boat with the 24, but the 24P is only 7 years old so now is the time to be trying to get rid of it. The 24 is a 1994 model, so that makes it 13 (not 17 :-P, you must be thinking of the other 24 you used to have), they have refurbed older trucks than that, might be worth a try.
Either way its crap having a truck doing that much work, they really are a bucket of snot. They plumbing is very restrictive, the pump never realises its full potential.
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yeh i agree with ya pumprescue...plumbing is very restrictive. am i right that the 24P's and 34P's only turnover what a 100mm pipe can feed in?
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Its the way things are. Brigades that do a handful of jobs a year, get brand new appliances, while brigades that are out daily have to hold their appliances for years.
A plan to rotate appliances? Bah! Don't need that. :roll:
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No one can argue the fact that Morphette Vale need more urban appliances, but I think G D was making a point about number of responses, not location.
I agree that busier brigades should be getting new equipment to play with, but how would you decide who deserves it? Should a brigade that does 450 calls a year get first preference over a brigade that only does 400, or 350? It would just make the politics worse.
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I agree that busier brigades should be getting new equipment to play with, but how would you decide who deserves it? Should a brigade that does 450 calls a year get first preference over a brigade that only does 400, or 350? It would just make the politics worse.
There is not that many brigades doing 250/300+ these days.
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Theres usually 2 MFS pumpers running to most of their jobs anyway, add in SEAF00's pumper and now give MV a type 2 and your going to have 4 pumpers responding to calls. Same goes for Salisbury. On one hand people cry about duplication of resources, yet your saying lets give type 2s to brigades surrounded by pumpers.
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Theres usually 2 MFS pumpers running to most of their jobs anyway, add in SEAF00's pumper and now give MV a type 2 and your going to have 4 pumpers responding to calls. Same goes for Salisbury. On one hand people cry about duplication of resources, yet your saying lets give type 2s to brigades surrounded by pumpers.
Yes, lets start responding rural trucks to house fires so we don't duplicate resources...
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Theres usually 2 MFS pumpers running to most of their jobs anyway, add in SEAF00's pumper and now give MV a type 2 and your going to have 4 pumpers responding to calls. Same goes for Salisbury. On one hand people cry about duplication of resources, yet your saying lets give type 2s to brigades surrounded by pumpers.
Did you know that SAMFS 20 Stn is surrounded by other stations all running Pumpers? I think there should be a parliamentary inquiry into duplication of resources like this.
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Yes, lets start responding rural trucks to house fires so we don't duplicate resources...
Responding rural resources to urban incidents is what happens everywhere else in the state. Its just that everywhere else in the state you don't have
3 full kit pumpers arriving before or shortly after a particular hick brigade arrives with their 15 year old 24 with only 2 BA.
Did you know that SAMFS 20 Stn is surrounded by other stations all running Pumpers? I think there should be a parliamentary inquiry into duplication of resources like this.
Oops sorry your right, after all we need 4 pumpers going to a car fire
1908973 01:23:40 13-11-07 MFS: INC # 2 - 13/11/07 01:23,RESPOND Vehicle Fire,SOUTH RD,OLD NOARLUNGA, MAP 195 Q 15 ,,COMMODORE ON BRIDGE,
RIVERRD,MRPH00*CFSRES:
1908967 01:14:55 13-11-07 MFS: INC # 2 - 13/11/07 01:14,RESPOND Vehicle Fire,SOUTH RD,OLD NOARLUNGA, MAP 195 Q 15 ,,ON TOP OF THE BRIDGE, COMMODORE,SEAF00 CDN431 CDN439*CFSRES:
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Theres usually 2 MFS pumpers running to most of their jobs anyway, add in SEAF00's pumper and now give MV a type 2 and your going to have 4 pumpers responding to calls. Same goes for Salisbury. On one hand people cry about duplication of resources, yet your saying lets give type 2s to brigades surrounded by pumpers.
Yes, lets start responding rural trucks to house fires so we don't duplicate resources...
haha start??? you mean keep doing it. lets not forget that brigades outside of region 1 & 2 get urban jobs as well..
HF14 - is the standard MFS response (in MFS area) to a VF 1 or 2 pumps?
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..... is the standard MFS response (in MFS area) to a VF 1 or 2 pumps?
It is my understanding that they are sending Two pumps minimum to every Vehicle Fire, due to the risk of LPG tanks, and the fact that some "charming" deliquents who burn cars are putting BBQ Gas bottles in the boot, or passenger compartments of Vehicles.
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Oops sorry your right, after all we need 4 pumpers going to a car fire
1908973 01:23:40 13-11-07 MFS: INC # 2 - 13/11/07 01:23,RESPOND Vehicle Fire,SOUTH RD,OLD NOARLUNGA, MAP 195 Q 15 ,,COMMODORE ON BRIDGE,
RIVERRD,MRPH00*CFSRES:
1908967 01:14:55 13-11-07 MFS: INC # 2 - 13/11/07 01:14,RESPOND Vehicle Fire,SOUTH RD,OLD NOARLUNGA, MAP 195 Q 15 ,,ON TOP OF THE BRIDGE, COMMODORE,SEAF00 CDN431 CDN439*CFSRES:
Don't get yourself all confused. There is a difference between allocation of resources to a given area to cover the risk in that area, and allocation of resources to a single job.
Not to mention "2 pumps to a Vehicle fire in case of LPG" Thats crap. Can you only run one line of hose off your own pump? If so, I'd invest in buying some more hose or a bigger pump.
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Not to mention "2 pumps to a Vehicle fire in case of LPG" Thats crap. Can you only run one line of hose off your own pump? If so, I'd invest in buying some more hose or a bigger pump.
Ahh, but in the country, they go to car fires in basic 14's with a single hoseline, and if there are 3 other pumpers in the area, upgrading yours to handle 2 hoses would be duplication of resources... ;)
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Not to mention "2 pumps to a Vehicle fire in case of LPG" Thats crap. Can you only run one line of hose off your own pump? If so, I'd invest in buying some more hose or a bigger pump.
Ahh, but in the country, they go to car fires in basic 14's with a single hoseline, and if there are 3 other pumpers in the area, upgrading yours to handle 2 hoses would be duplication of resources... ;)
Wait... My pump as got 8 road cones stowed on board. Does that mean that there is a 8x duplication of resources in the offside front locker alone?
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..... is the standard MFS response (in MFS area) to a VF 1 or 2 pumps?
It is my understanding that they are sending Two pumps minimum to every Vehicle Fire, due to the risk of LPG tanks, and the fact that some "charming" deliquents who burn cars are putting BBQ Gas bottles in the boot, or passenger compartments of Vehicles.
First question is 2 MFS Pumpers Mack
Secondly they are leaving 9kg gas cylinders in industrial bins too :-o
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MV also have to back up MFS to jobs in MFS area, ie lonsdale industrial area / colonnades etc. I think its time they get an upgrade in trucks.
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Salisbury could give up some area that would drop there calls down dalkeith did it others have done it i understand that some times they are required but do cfs brigades in urban areas need such a big urban primary area mfs can get there faster.
it sucks that the busy brigades dont always get what they want but least they have something that can do the job. i know quorn ses require a new truck well there first truck they have a hilux and a trailer and they have to wait till 08/09 to get a truck so i think cfs has it pretty good when it comes to trucks etc.
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Salisbury could give up some area that would drop there calls down dalkeith did it others have done it i understand that some times they are required but do cfs brigades in urban areas need such a big urban primary area mfs can get there faster.
it sucks that the busy brigades dont always get what they want but least they have something that can do the job. i know quorn ses require a new truck well there first truck they have a hilux and a trailer and they have to wait till 08/09 to get a truck so i think cfs has it pretty good when it comes to trucks etc.
Salisbury could do well to be shut down. Its surrounded by MFS stations. The CFS doesn't have it too good mate. There are stations out there attending 350+ jobs a year, with 1 7 year old truck, 1 15+ year old truck, and 3 20+ year old trucks. Go figure.
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If the brigade and its members are happy to do these calls let them,but at some point if they want to give something up then should be suported by all.I think alot of people forgot that these busy brigade's are able to do what they do with shift workers and yes there are days that they cant get out the door so they are lucky that MFS is not that far away.....
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Oops sorry your right, after all we need 4 pumpers going to a car fire
1908973 01:23:40 13-11-07 MFS: INC # 2 - 13/11/07 01:23,RESPOND Vehicle Fire,SOUTH RD,OLD NOARLUNGA, MAP 195 Q 15 ,,COMMODORE ON BRIDGE,
RIVERRD,MRPH00*CFSRES:
1908967 01:14:55 13-11-07 MFS: INC # 2 - 13/11/07 01:14,RESPOND Vehicle Fire,SOUTH RD,OLD NOARLUNGA, MAP 195 Q 15 ,,ON TOP OF THE BRIDGE, COMMODORE,SEAF00 CDN431 CDN439*CFSRES:
Whos area is that HF ?
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if its on the bridge would be CFS area
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That would be seafords area, and it looks like seaford have defaulted.
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Hmmmmmm interesting stuff. Being in one of those urban fringe brigades and speaking to other's in neighbouring brigades most have told me they are happy with the appliances they have got and some like the versatility of the 24P's and 34P's compared to Type 2 pumps that cant go off road if needed.
These brigades as you all would be aware of have strategic planning in place to replace appliances when required and when their appliances have done enough hours and Km's, we get new ones and the old ones are retro fitted and sent to brigades that don't do many calls a year.
Burnside have only looked into replacing their Volvo over the last few years and T.T.G. have recently got rid of their R.F.W. that had been in service for 20+ years that they were happy with but she was just getting to old.
I've seen a lot of the other states appliances I think we do pretty well considering the services size. Just my opinion!
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Just love that RFW drives well and it would not take much to get it back into action if needed....
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Salisbury could give up some area that would drop there calls down dalkeith did it others have done it i understand that some times they are required but do cfs brigades in urban areas need such a big urban primary area mfs can get there faster.
it sucks that the busy brigades dont always get what they want but least they have something that can do the job. i know quorn ses require a new truck well there first truck they have a hilux and a trailer and they have to wait till 08/09 to get a truck so i think cfs has it pretty good when it comes to trucks etc.
Salisbury could do well to be shut down. Its surrounded by MFS stations.
On face value lots of people say Salisbury is in the middle of MFS stations and so should be shut down or not receive new pumpers etc. What people dont see is the following, the amount of times Salisbury are covering for MFS who at Salisbury are out of area more than they are in area, the amount of jobs CFS run as the primary pump, the amount of jobs that they support MFS at, often at the request of MFS who dont seem to be able to effectively manage their resources in the northern suburbs without a significant reliance on CFS running as the second pump etc. With all this in mind if these urban interface brigades are being used the way they currently are they need to be equipped with the right equipment, regardless to what MFS stations are based around them.
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In regards to that G D is it best to supply the CFS with a new pumper for Salisbury or provide the MFS with more funding and a 4x4 Pumper? And close or downgrade Salisbury to a completely rural station?
This is looking at reducing duplication & improving coverage/response times - not a CFS vs MFS thing.
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Why not build a new station with mfs/cfs in it?????? save money on paying rent on the cfs station....
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MFS have a shortage of firies at the moment and are flat out just replacing retirements and trying to recruit for new stations. MFS utilise CFS so much in Adelaide as they probably need more appliances of their own but funds and resources just dont allow for it. CFS urban brigades will continue to be relied upon , you just cant shut them down that is ludicrous.
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MFS have a shortage of firies at the moment and are flat out just replacing retirements and trying to recruit for new stations. MFS utilise CFS so much in Adelaide as they probably need more appliances of their own but funds and resources just dont allow for it. CFS urban brigades will continue to be relied upon , you just cant shut them down that is ludicrous.
Which is why i stated that MFS be given more funds to acomplish this. There is no shortage of potential recruits, just need the machine to print more money.
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Well check this out courtesy of the UFU website
SAMFS At Breaking Point
As reported in the latest Wordback, budgetary adjustments continue to cut into our ability to deliver services to the public of South Australia.
The sorry saga of the Operational Training Relief (OTR) shift is well documented in the wordback mentioned above. As well as the eight OTR positions disappearing, we have also lost one or more officers from USAR and CBR. All of these positions were deemed absolutely essential to the efficient running of this fire service only two or three years ago.
In fact, as recently as August 07, the commitment to "recall if necessary to maintain OTR numbers" was given. Sounds very similar to the commitment, "Mr ....... has our full backing", just before a political party dumps it's leader!!
As well as these staff cutbacks, various departments have had to make cuts to their previously approved funding - just speak to anyone in the Training Dept.
One ridiculous example of this is the recent email request for Departments to come up with a "Budget Efficiency Dividend" (corporate-speak for your funding has been cut by $50 or $100 thousand dollars!!!!!) If it wasn't so serious you would laugh your guts out at this inability to just face up to your employees and say 'Are you able to trim your budget?'
The only Budget Efficiency Dividend we can see is the possibility in the future of some bureaucrat or executive staff-member getting a performance bonus for reducing the budget of SAMFS??
The next episode in this tragic dismantling of one of the oldest and proudest fire services in Australia is to use an appliance from Adelaide (202) to staff the new Beulah Park station - due to open early in 2008! We are not so sure that the people who live or work in city buildings would accept this as an improvement.
In what way are the people of South Australia advantaged by opening a brand new station and using an existing appliance to staff it? Refusing to increase the Global Manning by four to enable the station to be properly staffed reduces even further the ability for firefighters to receive scheduled training.
Another station is due to open at Seaford in approx 2009. Are we to assume that it will be staffed by sending a Christies or St Marys appliance there? It wouldn't be surprising given the logic of the last couple of decades.
Currently we have approx 20 'pods' carrying essential equipment (portable hospital, CBR, etc) which need to be transported to incidents via the 'pod truck'. Will this be the next target for Budget Efficiency Dividends?
Bear in mind that all this comes after serious cuts to staffing ten or so years ago. At that time SAMFS lost a couple of front-line pumpers from the system as well as quite a few officer positions - mainly from the DO rank.
Also, the fireboat had it's crew reduced and this has had a detrimental effect on the ability to keep a pumper available for the protection of the residents of Lefevre peninsula (as well as the huge commercial development that is taking place there).
The ironic part of the last couple of decades is that the area and population covered by SAMFS has increased by around 10%. Is this all we can offer our community??
I think it is time that the SAMFS management and, more importantly, the SAFECOM board were called to account over these large deficiencies that have been allowed to build up over the last ten or fifteen years. The people of South Australia want and deserve much better allocation of SAFECOM funds to SAMFS thereby ensuring that they are properly protected from fire and other emergencies.
If SAFECOM & SAMFS are unable to improve the level of protection given by firefighters to the residents of SA, we believe some of these residents will start to apply pressure to instigate the required improvements.
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So at the same time the volunteer services are suffering from recruitment, retention & training problems - due to budget cuts, the one paid emergency service who by default support the current government (being union members and all)are suffering there own budget problems, this is a disgrace if its true.
If the SAMFS people can't improve the situation, what hope do the vollies have?
Another question though, why did the UFU members support the creation of the Seaford station if that means stripping appliances & personnel from existing Stations or departments?
Do they /would they support new stations being opened in the future?
Does that put the retained stations under further threat?
Does this truely put the community of Adelaide at increased risk?
What are the solutions? Obviously political pressure doesn't work, it certainly hasn't so far.
Finally is this situation putting the volunteer services under increased pressure &placing them in an unenviable position?
As I said before this is a disgrace if it is true, hard to believe from a Labour Government.
cheers
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They want their cake and be able to eat it as well! They are whining about low numbers and thinly spread resources, but they want to increase their workload by taking over CFS areas in the outer suburban areas. Why dont they stop constantly running their pumps into CFS areas to piddly litte bin fires in the middle of parks and the like? Maybe that might releive some of the pressure? It would save them some money also! (Looks like another thread gone off track again!!!!!!!!!)
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Not really because all these calls that they are responding to increases the workload on an appliance,which going by the UFU letter is becoming increasingly unworkable.
But wait CFS will do a change of quarters for us :-P
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Another question though, why did the UFU members support the creation of the Seaford station if that means stripping appliances & personnel from existing Stations or departments?
Its not meant to. A new station should come with an appliance, and 12FF and 4SO positions. Along with all other necessary equipment.
Does that put the retained stations under further threat?
In all honesty there are only a couple of retained stations that should be kept, whereas as the others (eg: doing 30 jobs a year) should be cut. They are a waste of money.
What are the solutions?
If I was the UFU, I'd be going on strike, in a big way, about losing appliances and they kind of thing.
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It would be interesting to find out where these appliances were "lost" from.
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(Looks like another thread gone off track again!!!!!!!!!)
Slightly off topic :wink:. But on the one hand CFS brigades are talking about appliances (theirs) being heavily used and the need to rotate.
This links with other threads about payment for CFS vollies which some want.
And yet here are the paid full timers, claiming they are under manned, under equipped etc. I think they sought of fall in together, don't you?
I agree Retained stations that are under utilised should be closed, conversly CFS brigades who are heavily tasked - should have a full time component (SAMFS?). We as volunteers need to remember that these guys earn a livelyhood from this type of work. Also we must think of our employers etc, everytime we take off on a callout - it cost them money.
Maybe there needs to be a total review on how services are provided in the Adelaide metro area -- conducted by people who don't have hidden agendas.
cheers
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I thought you lads were talking about appliances!!!
Not kicking around the CFS/MFS football again.
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to all the people that think closing stations like salisbury down heres something to thinks about----------------
at this point in time where mfs is jumping up and down saying why are working to hard and dont have enought money to pay our fire fighters wing wing wing etc.............
salisbury cfs (and others eg mv) are always in the top 5 call getters every year. do you hear us complaining "we are doing to many calls" "we are under paid"
the answer NO
why would you close us down which would make mfs work harder, going to more calls, and cost mfs more money!!
we are doing this job for free and all we are asking is for the right equipment to do the job BETTER, to be able to support mfs better and to be better able to cover our own area.
and as for duplication of resources, there must be a need for that many resources as mfs are calling for support from pumpers, rcr equipment to do coq to cover their area when needed. How are we going to cover their are correctly with what they require if we dont have the equipment needed.
I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD THINK/LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE BEFORE SPITTING OUT "LET JUST CLOSE DOWN STATIONS AND THAT WILL SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS, as this would create more problems..............
my ideas only
firey9119
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The whole Emergency Services is a mess!
Currently you have volly ff's doing more work than SAMFS retained.
SAMFS short of staff, that short that they can't do all of their roles properly(as claimed by the UFU)
CFS payed staff saying that lessons have been learnt, when in fact I'm not so sure. And some aledgedly even deliberately trying to thwart efforts by units & brigades to work together by placing road blocks to stop co-operation
Some in SES & others within the community not really sure what its role is (in fact there are two SES's one metro one rural). Some SES units due to internal issues not even bothering to meet their standard of emergency response.
And everyone fighting over the same pot of gold.
I wasn't saying shut you down and all problems would be solved. What I was saying was that if you are so busy maybe there is a need for additional SAMFS resources. After all every time a volly leaves work/ self employment then it costs. Now for low to medium areas the costs aren't that high, however for brigades/units who have a high to very high call out rate then the costs to the employers/ self employed are massive and thats on top of ESL!
It is government cost shifting - simple. So unless there is significant improvements/ incentives to employers & the self employed, then there needs to be a higher full time presence.
And if you really need more rescue out there then SES Northern districts needs to be strenghtened.
By the way how many members do you have that regularly ride the trucks?
cheers
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bahaha northern ses do rescue haha was that a joke you would be waiting an hour :roll: