SA Firefighter
Technical Discussion => ALL Rescue => Topic started by: 6739264 on January 08, 2008, 02:19:21 PM
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The CFS BA and Hazmat course both reinforce the principles of having two people(min) ready, at incidents, to effect the rescue of persons already involved in combating the incident.
This is great, yet it was never pointed out that you may need more than just people power to help others. There was no real discussion of tools/techniques to assist those trapped/disorientated.
What do you do in you brigade/group for this sort of thing?
Is the rescue crew outside sitting around with the thumb in their behind or do they have the necessary equipment on hand to rapidly effect the rescue of downed personnel? If so, what do they carry? Should different equipment be made standard stowage to allow properly equipped rescue teams?
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well it would be great if we could have someting similar to the US with there huge RIT trucks but i agree that much more shuld be implemented in training to pull ff out if needed.
however it was mentioned at a recent trining session i atended that in BA we only realy train for dragging FF out if they run ut of air for example. Should we train for getting crews out of colapsed buildings or traped under faling stuff and using appropriate tlls eg hydrualic in those enviroments.
I know we try to avoid most of these events but mabey they should be ooked at more.
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however it was mentioned at a recent trining session i atended that in BA we only realy train for dragging FF out if they run ut of air for example. Should we train for getting crews out of colapsed buildings or traped under faling stuff and using appropriate tlls eg hydrualic in those enviroments.
well i spose that then turns into a USAR in a sense doesnt it?
re; safety crews for BA, we've never had any firm procedure other than having a crew available... i suppose these new 'rescue mats' could become something that the crew may hang onto, along with tools for forcing entry. But other than that, i dont believe anyone carries any specialist tools (not in SACFS anyway...)
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As Mack said collapsed buildings are USAR, mind you if it is a burning building and it suddenly collapses and you can't effect a "snatch type" rescue, then what is your plan?
Any type of rescue that requires the use of hydraulic equipment (either HOH or powered) or Air bag lifting equipment is going to take time. The same as heavy cutting equipment or winches etc.
Also your equipment needs increase markedly - shoring, cribbing etc.
Will it all fit on a standard pumper?
And different training - the type of rescue training that SES does for example :wink:
So I'm curious What type of rescues are we talking about? And How often does this type of incident happen in SA? (trapped fire fighters)What are the real & perceived risks?
And if the risks are so great & rural brigades don't have the people or equipment then why aren't the local rescue services responded to structural fires?
cheers
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yeah it does turn into a USAR job with fire and i know that my 24 is not caperble of doiing that work.
and once again it turns into a who should carry what discussion.
However i remember watching a video abut emergency airpacs carried by US crews so that they culd keep supplying air to trapped crew while they are rescued as you wll always have the time limmit of air. should this equipment be brught into CFS?
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However i remember watching a video abut emergency airpacs carried by US crews so that they culd keep supplying air to trapped crew while they are rescued as you wll always have the time limmit of air. should this equipment be brught into CFS?
sounds interesting... id never heard of that.
i guess if you got desperate and it was a case of waiting on a rescue being effected, then a hot change could be doen with cylinders anyway.
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However i remember watching a video abut emergency airpacs carried by US crews so that they culd keep supplying air to trapped crew while they are rescued as you wll always have the time limmit of air. should this equipment be brught into CFS?
CFS would need new airsets to achieve this, as the current SABRE Centurions don't allow emergency buddy breathing. I'm all for it, but it'd be a huge cash outlay. The CFS could bridge the gap in the interim by supplying spare facemasks and extension airhoses.
As Mack said collapsed buildings are USAR, mind you if it is a burning building and it suddenly collapses and you can't effect a "snatch type" rescue, then what is your plan?
Any type of rescue that requires the use of hydraulic equipment (either HOH or powered) or Air bag lifting equipment is going to take time. The same as heavy cutting equipment or winches etc.
Also your equipment needs increase markedly - shoring, cribbing etc.
Will it all fit on a standard pumper?
And different training - the type of rescue training that SES does for example :wink:
So I'm curious What type of rescues are we talking about? And How often does this type of incident happen in SA? (trapped fire fighters)What are the real & perceived risks?
And if the risks are so great & rural brigades don't have the people or equipment then why aren't the local rescue services responded to structural fires?
cheers
If part of the building collapses (most commonly the roof in a domestic situation) then yeah, you can have your USAR incident, but only once the fire is out - A little late for our poor crispy fireman. Then its not a rescue is it?
As for what type of rescues we are talking about, well:
Persons pinned under furniture/collapsed building sections
Entanglement in wires/cables
Crews disorientated
Low air/No air and unable to exit
Any situation where a firefighter is down and need extrication from the structure
Chook, of course the gear won't fit on a standard pumper, but things like Omni Tools/Halligans/Stokes Litters will. Crews can also have this gear out and on standby at the incident itself.
I don't know why the local Fire Service rescue appliance isn't responded chook, it a point that could certainly be looked at for larger incidents.
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I am not from a fire background, but one of the hardest & basic requirements in rescue is Recce and determining accurately the location of the victim within the structure.
I would imagine the use of frequent location reports as the BA crew proceed through the structure can assist create a mud map of the building layout. Especially difficult when it is a two or more storey building.
I have assisted in training scenarios where crew go through the inside of a dark building they do not know and bring a mud map out within 10 minutes. It is amazing the differences in the mud maps.
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...Is the rescue crew outside sitting around with the thumb in their behind or do they have the necessary equipment on hand to rapidly effect the rescue of downed personnel? If so, what do they carry? Should different equipment be made standard stowage to allow properly equipped rescue teams?
Because I am not from a fire background, but rescue is basically to remove the victim from the danger as fast as possible while the rescue crew is safe.
So on this basis, it would be get to the victim quickly and grab the overalls in a drag or 'fore n aft' carry. Maybe a three handed seat carry if coming down stairs.
I would suggest:
* charged line or some sort of quick fire extinguisher
* equipment to complete victim grab (gloves, mud map, rope, hooligan, radio, etc)
* first aid kit for treatment of victim when out of building.
* stretcher & blanket to place victim on to reduce shock. Stretcher should enable easy transfer to SAAS (eg rescue litter).
* SAAS response ability (eg time to arrive).
* Rescue response ability (SES, CFS or MFS)
* clean water to cool victim burns & irrigate eyes
* trained crew so response is automatic & confusion limited (maybe do part of a SES Basic Rescue course)
I would have thought majority is already on the CFS vehicles or can be quickly obtained at the incident. eg if no rescue litter, adapt by using a door or chair.
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For lifting partially collapsed structure off victim, who much weight can the standard jack (to change tyres) on CFS vehicles support ?
I personally would be worried about using hydraulic hoses & fluids in a heated space for risk of punctured hoses.
Grab wooden chocking materials from the building or surrounds. If a victim is down and the Rescue truck with equipment is not on scene, then start breaking things to adapt to your needs. A chain saw cuts all wood very quickly. :evil:
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yeah i guess that is the idea innovation in the heat of the moment.
bajdas in CFS BA operations when crews exit the building they draw a map so that crews going in can suposedly have some form of orrientation and what to expect. however this map never seems to match from crew to crew.
however i think this semst to be a bigget problem and emerges from the atutide in cfs that is largely "get readly for the fire season" " when the fire season comes" and not much that covers structural work.
could somone who has used them add to the reality of using hydrualic tools in fires?
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yeah i guess that is the idea innovation in the heat of the moment.
bajdas in CFS BA operations when crews exit the building they draw a map so that crews going in can suposedly have some form of orrientation and what to expect. however this map never seems to match from crew to crew.
however i think this semst to be a bigget problem and emerges from the atutide in cfs that is largely "get readly for the fire season" " when the fire season comes" and not much that covers structural work
could somone who has used them add to the reality of using hydrualic tools in fires?
The Mud maps should match, but sadly it just goes to show that some people are better at mud mapping than others, especially in the heat of the moment.
You should know by now that the CFS only attend bush fires and only work from November to April :Wink:
As far as using hydraulic tools in fires, you'd be mad to do it where there was a possibility of flame impingement, but in an area made safe for rescue work to commence, I don't see a huge issue.
For lifting partially collapsed structure off victim, who much weight can the standard jack (to change tyres) on CFS vehicles support ?
Good luck finding a CFS truck with a trolley jack on board. They seem to be few and far between these days. This may not be the case in rural areas though.
I would suggest:
* charged line or some sort of quick fire extinguisher
* equipment to complete victim grab (gloves, mud map, rope, hooligan, radio, etc)
* first aid kit for treatment of victim when out of building.
* stretcher & blanket to place victim on to reduce shock. Stretcher should enable easy transfer to SAAS (eg rescue litter).
* SAAS response ability (eg time to arrive).
* Rescue response ability (SES, CFS or MFS)
* clean water to cool victim burns & irrigate eyes
* trained crew so response is automatic & confusion limited (maybe do part of a SES Basic Rescue course)
Even for you Bajdas, a non-firefighter, its all so very basic, yet so often at CFS structure fire jobs the 'rescue crew' is simply two people standing around. There is very rarely any move to throw a salvage sheet on the ground and start unloading gear that may be needed. This then means that if an emergency arrives, the so called 'rescue crew' needs to then run around attempting to find the necessary equipment to effect the rescue.
Its odd that we look at how to protect ourselves, as bittenyakka pointed out, in a rural situation, yet nearly nothing is done in terms of structure fire. Urban services country wide have rescue appliances arrive at larger structure fires purely to maintain the safety of interior crews. Why not the CFS?
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For lifting partially collapsed structure off victim, who much weight can the standard jack (to change tyres) on CFS vehicles support ?
Good luck finding a CFS truck with a trolley jack on board. They seem to be few and far between these days. This may not be the case in rural areas though.
OK, so if a CFS truck gets a flat tyre in the bush they have no way of jacking the vehicle to change a tyre !! ....
I doubt if many SES volunteers would know how to change a truck tyre properly as well (this includes me), but we have the jack to lift the vehicle on the Field Command bus... :|
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....Even for you Bajdas, a non-firefighter, its all so very basic, yet so often at CFS structure fire jobs the 'rescue crew' is simply two people standing around. There is very rarely any move to throw a salvage sheet on the ground and start unloading gear that may be needed. This then means that if an emergency arrives, the so called 'rescue crew' needs to then run around attempting to find the necessary equipment to effect the rescue....
If happens with SES metro volunteers as well... I attended a partial collapsed male (heat & alcohol) at Clipsal500 track several years ago when walking around. Called a crew to assist on the GRN and they attended with very little equipment. They did not think...all OK in the end because the St Johns van that attended had everything.
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In the metro area, I have seen SAAS attend going house fires. I have also seen St John first aid and SAAS to rural fires.
This is to protect by providing medical/1st aid to the volunteers attending the tasking. I understand that only a few CFS volunteers in each brigade have 'senior first aid' certificates, where all SES volunteers should have the qualification.
Is the dispatch of SAAS or St John's resources automatically done to a confirmed structural fires has part of the CFS incident upgrade process ?
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Sorry but your comments on changing tyres on trucks are C**p. Every truck driver should know how to change tyres, if they don't they need to be trained & shouldn't be driving until they do.
Secondly there is hydraulic fluid rated for fire scenarios.
Third any rescue involving the use of specialist equipment one would assume the fire is not close by, therefore anything related to the fire itself is not relevant. As was said previously if a stokes, Combi tool (OMNITOOL?) - which is hydraulic & a halligan tool is all that is required then so be it.
Chainsaws you carry are petrol? same as disk cutters are you starting to see where I'm heading?
And the real issue is fire crews not getting gear ready to go in, is that correct?
So to fix the problem, we start building more rescue trucks (or relocating them :-(), buy more gear (see previous comment) & issue them to CFS units.
I have only one word to say - duplication.
When are you guys going to learn you don't have to do everything!
As I have said previously, we can & have provided specialist capabilities at fire incidents, all you have to do is ask.
By the way I have seen a CFS crew try and lift 3 Tonne of concrete off a guys leg with the truck jack- it don't work - that is why we have equipped and trained rescue units (who assisted getting the concrete off)
Anyway I've said enough cheers
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In the metro area, I have seen SAAS attend going house fires. I have also seen St John first aid and SAAS to rural fires.
This is to protect by providing medical/1st aid to the volunteers attending the tasking. I understand that only a few CFS volunteers in each brigade have 'senior first aid' certificates, where all SES volunteers should have the qualification.
Is the dispatch of SAAS or St John's resources automatically done to a confirmed structural fires has part of the CFS incident upgrade process ?
What you say about SAAS attending going structure fires is true. I have been to three going structure jobs in my 20 months in the CFS, and we have had SAAS at all three. Not just for any occupant who may need it, but for us fire fighters. The last one I went to, was upgraded before arrival, and as I was in the radio room at the time, after ringing Adelaide fire to upgrade, I rang SAAS to confirm that they had been dispatched to the job for stand by.
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Chook
I am not suggesting we strip SES of its rescue roles they do a good job.
however if we are to adequetly equip CFS to carry out rescues of downed ffs either CFS will need more trucks and equipment, we train more CFS in rescue equipment and SES bring it or we train SES in FFing.
now most SES i have spoken to don;t want to be involved in fire and in my area at tleast SES do not have the response times to get the trucks to our urban jobs and be usful in the rescue role.
so the only solution (in my area) is eqquping CFS if we could get the money amongst everything else. Or by all means can you give me a reason SES can undertake these roles?
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In the metro area, I have seen SAAS attend going house fires. I have also seen St John first aid and SAAS to rural fires.
This is to protect by providing medical/1st aid to the volunteers attending the tasking. I understand that only a few CFS volunteers in each brigade have 'senior first aid' certificates, where all SES volunteers should have the qualification.
Is the dispatch of SAAS or St John's resources automatically done to a confirmed structural fires has part of the CFS incident upgrade process ?
SAAS have been to every going house fire that I have attended, as well as being at anything reported as a possible house fire. They are there for both the fire crew and anyone pulled from the building.
As far as the Senior first aid certificate goes, I'd suggest it depends on the brigade. 99% of our members have the first aid qualification and a large number also have the adv. oxy resus/AED qualification.
Secondly there is hydraulic fluid rated for fire scenarios.
Third any rescue involving the use of specialist equipment one would assume the fire is not close by, therefore anything related to the fire itself is not relevant. As was said previously if a stokes, Combi tool (OMNITOOL?) - which is hydraulic & a halligan tool is all that is required then so be it.
Chainsaws you carry are petrol? same as disk cutters are you starting to see where I'm heading?
And the real issue is fire crews not getting gear ready to go in, is that correct?
So to fix the problem, we start building more rescue trucks (or relocating them :-(), buy more gear (see previous comment) & issue them to CFS units.
I have only one word to say - duplication.
When are you guys going to learn you don't have to do everything!
As I have said previously, we can & have provided specialist capabilities at fire incidents, all you have to do is ask.
By the way I have seen a CFS crew try and lift 3 Tonne of concrete off a guys leg - it don't work - that is why we have equipped and trained rescue units (who got the concrete off)
Anyway I've said enough cheers
Chook, just because a fire is not close by doesn't mean that everything fire related is irrelevant. The fire may be in the next room, the floor below/above, etc etc. You still need trained fire crews internally conducting the rescue. What about heat? What about smoke? What about possible close proximity exposure to fire? To suggest that the SES could possibly begin to provide anything along the lines of fire related rescue is insane. If the building comes down and turns into a USAR job then you'll be the first people I call to come and oversee and assist us with any body removal operations.
There is really no limit on the amount/type of equipment needed. There are the basics of the BA + Sledgehammer/Halligan and stokes litter. Hydraulics and Motors would certainly be a worst case scenario kind of thing. As for the Combi Tool/Combi Cutter/Omni Tool - same thing.
Chook, we may not have to do *everything* but I'm pretty sure that the buck stops with the fire service when fires are involved.
As for the CFS crew trying to lift the concrete, well if there was reasonable doubt they could do it, then of course they should have called the local rescue resource. Don't tar all of us with the incompetence brush.
The CFS should, at the very minimum, be able to ensure the safety of their own crews.
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Guys, in those two posts you have come up with the solutions to your problem :wink:
Firstly train relevant CFS crews in rescue. And reinforce the training regularly, if crews are not doing the right thing then that is not accepted.
Second respond rescue (CFS/SES) to incidents when its required & in a timely manner. CFS provides the people, SES provides the required equipment & if required specialist guidance.
In urban areas where SES response times are too slow, fix the problem.
If RCR rescue units must respond ( first truck rolling) in 6 minutes, so should other rescue units.
If they can't, then CFS needs to be correctly resourced with equipment & people.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that we suddenly get involved in fire tasks, after all you guys have the training - so if there is smoke and/or flame we stay out :wink: We are just the mobile equipment store! Just like SAAS providing medical support.
Finally I don't suggest or imply those guys were incompetent, they were trying their best with the gear they had. On the whole I admire what you guys do & appreciate the specialist knowledge you have (afterall my father was an Airforce fire fighter so it would be wierd if I didn't :-D).
Its just sometimes it takes a bit of lateral thinking to fix problems rather than just throwing money at a problem :wink: Anyway there are my thoughts & thanks for your input - cheers
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I have read all the posts provided and there are pros and cons in all of them.
Oxy Viva-Have been campaigning to have this on our appliances for 5 years
Answer-Not standard stowage
Even offered to pay for the training ourselves-Still NO
Rapid Intervention Tool-A snowballs chance in hell
We will just wait almost an hour for rescue as MFS are extremely busy :-o
Was offered a complete RCR kit at one stage,and offered to pay for the training
Answer-NO SFEC doesnt allow it
Defibralators-Every appliance will have them by end 2008-Quote First Aid Intsructor
We can not get the tools to save our own skin,let alone anyone elses and it WILL take the DEATH of a FIREFIGHTER to make Region wake up :x
We are worse off budget wise now than ever before,but what's your life worth!!
SAYING "NO" ALL THE TIME AINT GOING TO MAKE YOU CEO :wink:
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"SAYING "NO" ALL THE TIME AINT GOING TO MAKE YOU CEO"
RIGHT ON :-D
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Oxy Viva-Have been campaigning to have this on our appliances for 5 years
Answer-Not standard stowage
Even offered to pay for the training ourselves-Still NO
your group is like mine in that we will try the "official way" first but if no go and no valid reasons are presented why not, then we just buy the stuff ourselves. Given that hasn't occured in this case I'm thinking there must be more to it than I've heard so far.
Defibralators-Every appliance will have them by end 2008-Quote First Aid Intsructor
yeah right, at the speed CFS corporate moves? no doubt they are coming but maybe end of 2009 or 2010. I remember a first aid instructor said a similar thing about AEDs 2 years ago at the course I was on.
Unfortunately CFS corporate is almost entirely reactive, partly a result of budget cuts and partly due to legal arse-covering that is so common now in govt and large companies. Almost all of the innovation in CFS now either comes from, or is driven by, volunteers. The unfortunate fact is it will probably take someone's death to get things like this introduced.
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Seems like everyone agrees that mud maps are notoriously unreliable,what we need is something that is totally devoid of emotions to just record the facts, JONO'S helmet camera----just a thought.
Cheers Jaff
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Me thinks things are going to get worse, not better. I'm not sure why but there seems to be an increased focus on trying to save money.
Recent discussions I have had with different individuals, all seem to talk about better resource utilisation i.e. " we really don't think you need to keep this piece of equipment or we may redeploy that to somewhere else". And when a deficiency is identified & the official answer is NO, so other funds are used to secure its purchase, then this action is frowned upon :-(.
To find out the answers, I went to the very top (the minister)& the short answer is that there have been increases in budget not decreases.
Therefore what must be happening is that the costs of providing the various services must be increasing at an accelerated rate i.e. your appliance replacements are more expensive than the old ones, PPE costs more etc.
I know for example the cost of hydraulic equipment is unbelievable & that regardless of use its life expectancy is only about ten years.
So how many combitools, AED's, Oxyviva's are we talking? I'm not saying you shouldn't have them - you should but what are you going to give up to secure their purchase?
And you are right, government is reactive (just like the private sector) & it is difficult to justify spend on a risk if nothing has happened in the past.
So What are the answers? I have discussed a few previously & I have a number of other possible solutions (not prepared to discuss here though :wink:).
I know that the above is a little off topic, however it all revolves around equipment etc.
cheers
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Seems like everyone agrees that mud maps are notoriously unreliable,what we need is something that is totally devoid of emotions to just record the facts, JONO'S helmet camera----just a thought.
Cheers Jaff
Solves nothing.. - You ever been to a going job Jaff?.. - *EVEN* if someone was on hand to d/load all the video, and *even* if there was equipment on the truck (monitors, power supplies, cords, cables) and *even* if the camera managed to see anything through all the smoke, steam and soot.. - By the time you have reviewed the footage to make a mud map of the operators 15 minute wear in the house, you would look up at a pile of smouldering rubble!
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Solves nothing.. - You ever been to a going job Jaff?.. - *EVEN* if someone was on hand to d/load all the video, and *even* if there was equipment on the truck (monitors, power supplies, cords, cables) and *even* if the camera managed to see anything through all the smoke, steam and soot.. - By the time you have reviewed the footage to make a mud map of the operators 15 minute wear in the house, you would look up at a pile of smouldering rubble!
He heh, true. I had a dream a while ago about a structure fire (I have bizarre dreams about innovations - if I followed up on any one of them I'd be rich) - we currently have a system that can relay information back to the appliance about how much air you are consuming and at what rate, this is technology now. In my dream we rocked up at a going house fire and at the front of the house was a post that had a chip in it and you swipe across the post and it downloads an image of the floor plan onto a small screen hanging on your set (that doubles as a distress signal unit and also sends data back about your air consumption) and when you enter the building it tracked your location, so i had this little light where I was in the house on the map, and I could follow along a wall or into another room, etc. It also had a temperature reader in it, and you could point a laser at anything from the base of the unit and it told you what temp it was.
All those that have done anything with satellites know that they are crap inside buildings - well this wasn't satellite driven per se, it was like it was triangulating off the appliance and off the pole at the front of the house, which were both using satellites to pinpoint their location or had a known location. Anyway, in the dream we were using it like it was standard stuff and nothing out of the ordinary.
So...anyone have a spare $300m so I can make a prototype?? :-D
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Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?
Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.
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RescueHazmat, I have been to one or two going jobs over the years thanks for caring and asking!As I read the thread it had turned to a "protracted" rescue of personel trapped/pinned in an urban rescue environment,not every incident turns into hosing off the house slab and making a carpark,also there was a hint of humour intended with my last post,sorry you missed it!
Cheers Jaff
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... The SES boys turned it into a 'protracted' rescue. As that would be the only situation in which they would ever be called to assist with a firefighter trapped as a result of a structure fire. Even then it would probably be less of a rescue and more of a body recovery. Again, the question is asked, would another agency really play a leading role? Doubtful.
My original post and question had nothing to do with a protracted rescue, and everything to do with rapid intervention.
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why don't CFS launch a big protest to get some good funds then.
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Just a slight correction - you guys first mentioned USAR which is a protracted rescue yes? And mentioned heavy equipment - yes?
Also if you guys are doing something which a) is of high risk & b) you obviously don't have the gear (& it it seems training for some) you need then from a risk management point of view Should you continue to do it?
So if I have got this right you need:
Rapid intervention tools, thermal imaging cameras, AED's, Oxyviva's, DSU's (do you have one each?), Radio's (in previous topics it was mentioned some had one each, some didn't). Not to mention other equipment you guys have identified as needed for other scenarios.
How many sets are we talking - 1 per urban appliance, 1 set of gear per brigade, a couple sets per group?
And in your last scenario (body recovery) why not? We do at MVA's that involve incineration. And in the Wildfire scenario we provide & operate boats, pumps etc.
Do the other Vollie fire services, provide this equipment & if so to what level?
As I keep saying if it is Rapid Intervention (Fire) then you guys should have the gear to get your self or your mates out of trouble (eg the gear that is carried on Berri 609). If however it is heavy rescue then there are other resources available & should be called upon.
cheers
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Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?
Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.
We don't have as many as the NSWFB but if you did some research you'd find CFS do have TIC.
http://www.ypct.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1865&Itemid=1
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USAR was only mentioned as Mack suggested that a collapsed building while involved in fire turns into USAR "in a sense". You then jumped all over it screaming USAR and SES, chook.
Chook, the point of this thread was to try to get an understanding of what other brigades/groups do for Firefighter Rescue in a structural fire scenario. It wasn't really to get into yet another discussion about 'Rescue' and who should do/have what.
I think that this is an area that the CFS really need to look at, and should have at least one appliance per group stowed with the appropriate gear to effect the rescue of fellow firefighters. One day something will happen and on scene crews will be caught out.
In terms of body recovery, I'd be all for you guys to come along and do shoring if you felt the need, but I can assure you that the only people that will lay hands on the body of a firie would be fellow firies. It's just the way things are done.
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Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?
Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.
We don't have as many as the NSWFB but if you did some research you'd find CFS do have TIC.
http://www.ypct.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1865&Itemid=1
No doubt CFS wouldn't have as many as SAMFS or MFB either. Great to see that they are being used effectively. I hope the other one is on Burnside Hazmat... or somewhere a little more useful than KI.
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RescueHazmat, I have been to one or two going jobs over the years thanks for caring and asking!As I read the thread it had turned to a "protracted" rescue of personel trapped/pinned in an urban rescue environment,not every incident turns into hosing off the house slab and making a carpark,also there was a hint of humour intended with my last post,sorry you missed it!
Cheers Jaff
Yep, missed it. - The joys of a forum where emotion and intent are unable to be relayed through text. - You obviously saw my reply as a dig at your experience or what jobs you have attended? .. Well it wasn't, more so using the comment to re-inforce the reasons why a camera wouldn't really be appropriate. Again, the joys of an internet forum. . . :)
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"You then jumped all over it screaming USAR and SES, chook." - slight exaggeration?
You started talking about a rapid rescue of a downed FF, others then expanded the scenario, which then increased the level of equipment required. Thats when I "jumped in".
As I asked in the previous post - do vollie fire services have this equipment interstate?
A responsible Employer would not expose its employees to an unacceptable risk, so therefore How did this situation develop?
When I look at the various angles you take in a number of different areas, you certainly have an opinion on who should be doing what (i.e. fire does rescue), all I was doing was pointing out that resources already exist so why duplicate? However you have made it very clear that one brigade in each group should have rapid intervention equipment.
Well the good news is in the group that look after this area one brigade has :wink:
However do they get responded to structural fires outside of their town - No.
You have also indicated/hinted that some of your fellow firies don't really do or know what to do - obviously a training problem within CFS.
Personally how you guys go about your business is - well your business, however if all of a sudden CFS received more funds to create another duplication in equipment/skills then that would really make no sense - SAMFS also have the equipment even retained(e.g609).
Anyway at the end of the day the decision is not mine or yours - SAFECOM will ultimately decide on all of this sought of stuff, after all it all comes down to dollars.
As far as your last comment goes it would depend on the location, circumstances & other factors. However from a human view point I agree with your statement.
Finally in SA SES = Rescue :-D cheers
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OK, if you go back through the thread I have made suggestions of what I would get out of a truck as standby:-
"I would suggest:
* charged line or some sort of quick fire extinguisher
* equipment to complete victim grab (gloves, mud map, rope, hooligan, radio, etc)
* first aid kit for treatment of victim when out of building.
* stretcher & blanket to place victim on to reduce shock. Stretcher should enable easy transfer to SAAS (eg rescue litter).
* SAAS response ability (eg time to arrive).
* Rescue response ability (SES, CFS or MFS)
* clean water to cool victim burns & irrigate eyes
* trained crew so response is automatic & confusion limited (maybe do part of a SES Basic Rescue course)
I would have thought majority is already on the CFS vehicles or can be quickly obtained at the incident. eg if no rescue litter, adapt by using a door or chair."
What would you suggest from a firie viewpoint, not from a rescuer viewpoint. :|
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Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?
Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.
We don't have as many as the NSWFB but if you did some research you'd find CFS do have TIC.
http://www.ypct.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1865&Itemid=1
No doubt CFS wouldn't have as many as SAMFS or MFB either. Great to see that they are being used effectively. I hope the other one is on Burnside Hazmat... or somewhere a little more useful than KI.
Last i heard, all the regions have a TIC in the office... definitely 1, 2 &3.
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At $18,000 each no wonder there is only one per region
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Isn't that $18,000 wasted if it's just kept in the office? At least give it to a brigade...
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yeah but then it would set a precedent and all brigades would need to have one :?
more seriously if it is at region then it is the problem that it could never be brought to a job quick enough
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more seriously if it is at region then it is the problem that it could never be brought to a job quick enough
I was talking to those using the thermal imaging camera at our last fire we had.
They stated it wasn't really effective on the first night after ignition as the ground was still too hot. The next night was more successful between midnight and day break.
Hair
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Hair we are talking in terms of structure fires these would need it withing the first 5 - 10 mins to really be effective.
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Last i heard, all the regions have a TIC in the office... definitely 1, 2 &3.
Niiice... Awesome waste of resources that is. I hope they don't mind coming when I call for it. But of course you can't give it to one brigade and not others, as multiple brigades in a region have a case for having one.
Bajdas, yeah your suggestions are great, no issue with them at all. :)
Chook, some volly brigades have that equipment interstate, but at the same time the CFS is pretty unique having the area of responsibility that it does (Fire, Rescue, Hazmat) and being 110% volunteer at brigade level.
How 'this' was allowed to happen is pretty simple. The CFS likes to focus on rural fires and tends to forget that it attends structure fires (For evidence look at the 'pumpers' and what they issue as a Halligan Tool) The CFS motto of "Come home safe" needs to be looked at in all senses of the job that we do, and unfortunately it too often comes down to the OIC because there are not SOP's written, apart from two in, two out.
In terms of me having my mind made up about certain things, yeah I do, but at the same time so do you. The last line of your post "in SA, SES = Rescue no matter how tongue in cheek could not be further from the truth. You have to realise that there are forms of rescue that the SES are just not capable of and entering a burning building to pull out firies and civvies happens to be one of them.
Having fellow firies not knowing what to do has nothing to do with training - as there is no formal traiing for rapid intervention. The problem arises when you have volunteer emergency services having to take what they get in terms of members. There are many people in my brigade that I don't feel that I can rely on, but they are available during the day and other hours, so they are voted in as members. Its the same thing in some of the local SES units. You obviously have your head around things but its a far cry from the units I've delt with. At the end of the day, you take what you can get so that you can provide a service to a minimum standard.
I don't quite see how you can view the procurement of funds to protect the lives of firefighters by training people in how to go about rescuing their own colleagues as not making sense. SAMFS have the equipment and the training because on the whole the are a decent fire service.
You talk of duplication if the CFS upskilled and re-equipped to deal with this issue as though its something that the SES could undertake now. For the SES to undertake the rescue of firefighters, wouldn't they need firefighting PPE? Training in firefighting and search and rescue techniques? As well as a multitude of other things that would essentially turn them into firefighters?
Of course the decision is not mine or yours, I did not start this topic of *discussion* for a decision to be made. I wanted to find out what other CFS (YES, CFS not SES) brigades did in terms of preparing for the possibility of having to rescue a downed firefighter.
Can we please try and leave the discussion as to which agency should do what out of every discussion of rescue?
Hair, the TIC's no doubt worked like crap as they are not really designed for use at bushfires. Take them into a structure and they are pretty much god's gift to firefighting - Both during and after the fire. If you use them to look at the ground after a bushfire has gone through, then all you're going to get is a nice white screen (because its ALL hot). Once you have a significant temperature difference between items, they work great. TIC's produced these days tend to be able to distinguish between 0.5 degrees Celsius. But I still am at a loss as to how they were used on KI as anything more than a PR exercise.
Bittenyakka, it depends what you want the TIC for. They are great for S&R as well as overhaul. Yeah, they will be useless for S&R if they are not there on the truck, but they still can be used and brought from the office for overhaul.
Phew... I'm done now!
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Excellent response, yes the Rescue bit at the end was tongue in cheek - well sought of :wink:
Only offered a quick short term solution - while your service soughts itself out, but as I said at the end of the day it's your problem :-(
Due to some potential changes within our service, I/we have other stuff to worry about!
Anyway another enlightening discussion, which helps re-enforce why I'm not a firie :wink: As we don't send people into harms way without having ways & means to get them out.
Just another question, If the CFS is so bad why do you stay? While I agree we have some issues- I trust the members of my team (Sacked the ones I couldn't :wink:)
Anyway thanks again for increasing my knowledge.
cheers
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I think it is often the people that make us stay and the result when things get done right. Of course the challenges that CFS presents both operationally and administratively sometimes suck you in.
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Yep same reason I stay (especially the challanges bit), at the end of the day we have similar issues in broad terms anyway.
Thats part of the fun of being a vollie I guess.
Anyway cheers
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Only offered a quick short term solution - while your service soughts itself out, but as I said at the end of the day it's your problem :-(
Due to some potential changes within our service, I/we have other stuff to worry about!
Anyway another enlightening discussion, which helps re-enforce why I'm not a firie :wink: As we don't send people into harms way without having ways & means to get them out.
Just another question, If the CFS is so bad why do you stay? While I agree we have some issues- I trust the members of my team (Sacked the ones I couldn't :wink:)
Anyway thanks again for increasing my knowledge.
cheers
You're not wrong about the fire service. It does need to sort it self out and either go with the RFS or the CFA model, not a mish mash of the two. Only time will tell, sadly.
As to why I stay in the CFS? I trust the core group of responders in my brigade with my life and they also happen to be my closest friends outside of the fire service. Those people without a great skill set are people that we can have on the pump, and work with to achieve the desired outcome. A little bit of mentoring and guidance never goes astray.
There is always going to be different level of skills, commitment and 'passsion' for the job, and thats just what you have to deal with - its teh nature of the volunteering beast.
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Yep your not wrong - a year ago had to stop and reassess my attitude, expectations towards the team I was expected to lead.
Coming from a full time military background, where people were highly trained & disciplined my expectations were a little too high, however I was lucky enough to spend 18 months with a very good rescue team who despite an outward appearance of casualness were very good at what they do. It showed me a different way of running a vollie unit. They had a very high entrance bar, their unit manager is on top of everything (you can't get away with anything :wink:)& they had everything they need to do the tasks required. I was able to take what I had learnt to a new unit which was like the ones you describe, however 12 months latter there has been a big turn around. I guess it really depends on what the CFS & the community wants from its fire service, I was going to mention the NSW model but that would be a major turn around for the CFS. Same as the Victorian system. And not just for the fire services!
Maybe as a matter of urgency SAFECOM needs to look at the whole issue, without the passion that raises its head everytime this is spoken of.
At the end of the day however the issue of rescue crews/RIT's at structural fires needs to be address now, otherewise one day it will all go "pearshaped" and there will be another enquiry. And no one wants that! Also I find it hard to believe that an esential piece of equipment (TIC)is kept at Regional headquaters, for us that is almost two hours away! Anyway I'm sure that one day it will all be fixed :-D
cheers