SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SAAS => Topic started by: Para101 on August 29, 2010, 09:53:39 PM
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just having a discussion with some guys and girs the other day and its come to my attention that volunteers want to be up skilled and trained, are there any volies that dis/agree or have any ideas? as para's do you think this is a good idea?
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:-D I believe vollies should be able to upskill. such a course to a volly of say 4 years exposure for more advanced care eg canulla, less restriction on their current drug use would be good. this would be more life saving for pts who are a long time from hospital and paramedic help.
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love to see an advanced stream that people have to apply and be selected for.....just breathing shouldnt be one of the criteria however. Theres certainly more than enough talented vollies to put 20 or 30 a year through a Diploma course, with an upgraded Authority to Practice....maybe we could call them Alhphas of something similar...lolol.... :evil:
sadly, not going to happen......present Country Manager is dead against it, as is the Clinical Hierachy
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Could you imagine a vollie doing 1 shift per week or fortnight? This course being paid by SAAS/government who would like a turn around on their investment of around $20000+ per volly, they would expect a big return on their investment. Therefore it aint going to happen especially with SAAS management and the AEA.
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I think SAAS get their money out of volunteers. If the volunteer has been dedicated in their duty then they should be rewarded by extra training and upgrading if they want it. Yes there should be strict criteria meet to ensure this. Even if they are trained in canullation and require consult to use it life can be saved. Then they could possibly be called an advanced care ambulance officer or something like that.
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Could you imagine a vollie doing 1 shift per week or fortnight? This course being paid by SAAS/government who would like a turn around on their investment of around $20000+ per volly, they would expect a big return on their investment. Therefore it aint going to happen especially with SAAS management and the AEA.
volleys are already expected to do a 10 or 14 hr shift a week, plus training 2 nights a month....if you want to see return vs investment, I reckon the Govt is already waaaaay ahead
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as a volunteer I agree that SAAS get their far share of money from us with the work we do. By the looks they are now reducing reimbursments for volunteers. How is this fair when some of us go without to help the local community even when we dont live in the town but travel far and wide to help. Without being rude some of the paid staff dont realise how we go without to help and it costs volunteers money, from people who own their own biz, through to travelling to stations then they say we are a waste of space and time. How maqny paramedics want to work in the middle of the country away from main civilization :? and not a lot of support.
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Upskilling is good idea we do this already with RCR when the guys come down from STC and we are about to do it with the launch of BFF1 v 2...I am all for it...
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There is another way of upskilling but does not involve SAAS. Many advanced courses are run in Adelaide on a yearly or twice yearly basis. For example:
Pre Hospital Trauma Life Support
International Trauma Life Support
Advanced Cardiac Life Support
Assessment and Treatment of Trauma
and all of the courses run by the Australian College of Emergency Nursing
All of these are accessible to SAAS (and other) volunteers who wish to upskill. Of course with our generous government you will need to pay out of your own pocket. Also SAAS clinical hierarchy will probably not recognise them with their NIH (not invented here) attitude.
Good luck chaps.
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There is another way of upskilling but does not involve SAAS. Many advanced courses are run in Adelaide on a yearly or twice yearly basis. For example:
Pre Hospital Trauma Life Support
International Trauma Life Support
Advanced Cardiac Life Support
Assessment and Treatment of Trauma
and all of the courses run by the Australian College of Emergency Nursing
All of these are accessible to SAAS (and other) volunteers who wish to upskill. Of course with our generous government you will need to pay out of your own pocket. Also SAAS clinical hierarchy will probably not recognise them with their NIH (not invented here) attitude.
Good luck chaps.
Some of these courses are instructed by members of volunteer first responder group who have acquired instructor certification in PHTLS and ITLS when the course come to Adelaide.
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Either way the government has got a real cheap emergency service, provided by volunteers yet we scream for more funding and we have to fight for it!!!
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There is another way of upskilling but does not involve SAAS. Many advanced courses are run in Adelaide on a yearly or twice yearly basis. For example:
Pre Hospital Trauma Life Support
International Trauma Life Support
Advanced Cardiac Life Support
Assessment and Treatment of Trauma
and all of the courses run by the Australian College of Emergency Nursing
All of these are accessible to SAAS (and other) volunteers who wish to upskill. Of course with our generous government you will need to pay out of your own pocket. Also SAAS clinical hierarchy will probably not recognise them with their NIH (not invented here) attitude.
Good luck chaps.
Some of these courses are instructed by members of volunteer first responder group who have acquired instructor certification in PHTLS and ITLS when the course come to Adelaide.
no..it's about quality control.
SAAS (yes there will be those who disagree) needs to ensure that there is a consistent approach to the level of education (be what it may!) that is delivered to it's staff across the board.
Just because a course is taught under an RTO provider - doesn't mean it's up to scratch....just so long as the boxes are ticked on the RTO paperwork!
and WJW - if the first responder group you usually refer to on this forum is the one providing the course...then I will pass thanks!
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bored is very right. There are some training RTO's out there who just want their $.
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There is another way of upskilling but does not involve SAAS. Many advanced courses are run in Adelaide on a yearly or twice yearly basis. For example:
Pre Hospital Trauma Life Support
International Trauma Life Support
Advanced Cardiac Life Support
Assessment and Treatment of Trauma
and all of the courses run by the Australian College of Emergency Nursing
All of these are accessible to SAAS (and other) volunteers who wish to upskill. Of course with our generous government you will need to pay out of your own pocket. Also SAAS clinical hierarchy will probably not recognise them with their NIH (not invented here) attitude.
Good luck chaps.
Some of these courses are instructed by members of volunteer first responder group who have acquired instructor certification in PHTLS and ITLS when the course come to Adelaide.
no..it's about quality control.
SAAS (yes there will be those who disagree) needs to ensure that there is a consistent approach to the level of education (be what it may!) that is delivered to it's staff across the board.
Just because a course is taught under an RTO provider - doesn't mean it's up to scratch....just so long as the boxes are ticked on the RTO paperwork!
and WJW - if the first responder group you usually refer to on this forum is the one providing the course...then I will pass thanks!
The group that I was refering to started in the 90s and they are not an RTO certified organisation. The 2 instructors got the ITLS through Queensland Health and AREMT one has MEd and the other nothing.
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Good luck chaps.
no..it's about quality control.
SAAS (yes there will be those who disagree) needs to ensure that there is a consistent approach to the level of education (be what it may!) that is delivered to it's staff across the board.
Just because a course is taught under an RTO provider - doesn't mean it's up to scratch....just so long as the boxes are ticked on the RTO paperwork!
and WJW - if the first responder group you usually refer to on this forum is the one providing the course...then I will pass thanks!
you mean as opposed to the current SAAS system, where RTLs hand out the answer sheets with the booklets, where people who are assessed by Station staff as not fit to even look at an ambulance, are passed as competent by RTLs and the curious band of travelling trainers, because we need Cert 2 bums on seats, who 9 months later, still cant pass a CPR yearly assessment, but are still allowed to crew as a second. The same system that provides one instructor to 24 students for a practical day of training, and then wonders why none of them know or can do anything.
There are many more good training organisations around SA, and more good RTOs than there are bad. Most of the good ones make SAAS look second rate. Considering the amount of problem SAAS had with their last RTO audit, and I'm sure you have read the comments in the RDSP review, I'm not sure I would be holding them up as any shining light.
For the record, anything/one endorsed by AREMT makes me wonder too
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Teddy what's the solution then to these problems? It's easy to identify the problems but do you gave a suggestion or plan?
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well NoCare, as you might have deduced from my earliest post on the matter, it's something that a Group of us have taken up the Chain several times now.
It comes down to the fact that SAAS are digging in on the Cert IV is all that is needed path. It's about money, its about the fact they cant do anything else with their RTO status becuse of the cost to increase the scope, and it's about the Union....they are all blockers to an expanded skill set/scope for Vols. What do we do about it, well, having beaten my head up often enough over it, I have chosen to fork out the $$ myself and go to Uni and not rely on SAAS to provide it - but then SAAS dont recognise it so its for my personal betterment, rather than any change in my SAAS pratice. For others that dont want Uni there are a couple of providers that can do the Diploma, one in NSW, and one in WA. Unless you have a $$ tree in your backyard, then avoid the WA company. They also have at least one complaint outstanding against them as an RTO based on their practices. $10000ish for the Diploma is rubbish
and so NoCare, I dont have any easy answer....it's for all of us as Vols to continue to remind the General at every opportunity, that learning shouldn't stop 12 months after we join at the completion of Cert IV, PDWs are not career progression they are skills maintenance, and that people in the country deserve the opportunity for the highest trained people they can get. The only way that will all happen, is if enough people bang the gong
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Teddy
Fair call. Its great to see some of you want to expand your knowledge and skills for the rural community. But are you a minority? does the average farmer at timbucktoo just need and want Certificate 4 training? I mean SAAS vollys can do more Rx than most ambulance volunteers around Australia. Would the average country folk struggle to work, have a family life, volunteer and study already?
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Surely this would put SAAS RTO status at risk.
As opposed to anymore than it already is?
MisterTed- for the record I wasn't holding it out to be the standard- was simply pointing out that as an organisation they have an obligation to their 'model' to ensure some sort of consistency.
I can't help it that they don't want to recognise anything else! i must admit there has been a lot of change in the last 5 years.....and like most things ambulance(being 10 years behind other professions like nursing) - i believe it will eventually swing your way. Registration is but the first step.......
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Boredy....I know you werent, you arent all that isolated from the same crap. And yes...registration (and regulation) should help, at least it's a great place to start
No Care..... I would approach it a slightly different way. I would rather suggest that its the Community that demands SAAS finds a way to provide a more equitable service. SAAS has an obligation to recruit, educate, support and retain staff to as close to as possible, the same standard skill base regardless of Metro or Country. It's not about WOULD the farmer in Timbucktoo want or need it.....their Community deserves it, and if the farmer WANTs to, and can meet the requirements of the process, then SAAS should find a way. SAAS only has 1500 Vol staff, plenty of companies have more staff than that, with less training staff than SAAS and have individualised learning plans for each person.....
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Anyone who gives the answers and does not train volunteers effectively should be taken from their position and possibly face retraining of their own. This could put lifes at risk and the RTO status. As a volunteer I would love to upskill and since I have further career wishes have done dip para at own expense. Still wont be saas recognised but it is a start. I agree WA way to expensive even with RPL. Make sure you shop around on the net and ring people and let them know you ahve Cert 4 SAAS qual. This makes a huge difference.
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Teddy et al.....
Maybe the problem is that too many people have their fingers in the education pie?
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have the vollys on here had a look at the new certificate 4 manuals on SAASnet?
one of the ESS guys was showing me the other day. alot of the A&P stuff is at the level we had to be at when I did my diploma in the 1990's. I was reading the IV and medication one and noted that cert 4 guys can now flush IV's and start IV's on people already cannualted with a bung insitu under consult. Plus RN's who volunteer with SAAS can now cannualte , give morphine, follow paramedic protocols ect (again on SAASnet).
SAASNet is difficult to find anything on at the best of times, do you have a link to the manuals or the policy recognising nursing qualifications?
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what about a cert IV whon actually has a dip and adv dip of para can they do the same as an RN. Do you think if they are the only people available no paramedic available they should be able to consult :?
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Only if they go through an appropriate RPL process and appropriate clinical challenge. As previously noted - if u can get through an online diploma with no practical experience or exposure....it doesn't really mean diddly squat!
Holding out isn't a crime yet so you could prob pull the wool over someone's eyes....but eventually you'll get caught. :evil:
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.....Considering the amount of problem SAAS had with their last RTO audit, and I'm sure you have read the comments in the RDSP review, I'm not sure I would be holding them up as any shining light.
Do tell Bored, I have long had my suspicions about the quality of vollee education and the manipulation of AQTF paperwork to fit the course (rather than the other way round). Where can we read of said shortcomings? (don't know what "RDSP" is - unless it is ""Real Dense Sulky Paramedic") - and more important - has SAAS done anything about them?
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I feel for SAAS sometimes they are dammed if they do and they are dammed if they don't. Ambos can be a weird bunch sometimes, many complain, few step up to the plate and make a change or get involved
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And it might well be that those who have tried have been so hamstrung by politics, management egos and red-tape that they just give up in disgust and stop caring!
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And it might well be that those who have tried have been so hamstrung by politics, management egos and red-tape that they just give up in disgust and stop caring!
yep.....what he said....
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I here what your saying lads Teddy should you put your hand up to become a REN instructor? And Bored have you apply to become a CE educator ? Perhaps that way you can make changes to education at grass roots level with the students?
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I here what your saying lads butmikee than every SAAS needs people who are doers and thinkers! Teddy should you put your hand up to become a REN instructor? And Bored did you apply recently to become a CE educator ? Perhaps that way you can make changes to education at grass roots level with the students?
Hahahahahaha.......
Er...no. Been there and got the t-shirt. The aforementioned post might well have something to do with me being a happy lemmings doing what the great EOC commands and then going home and forgetting everything.
you however..can keep bashing your head against the wall and the best of luck to you driving that far to work everyday!!
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Just got it guys - Regional Sponsored Degree Program - sorry - really am a Really Sulky Dense Paramedic!
What threw me a bit was the talk about SAAS being a RTO and upskilling volunteers, and figured you were talking about the quality of Cert II/IV stuff. RSDP is run by a different set of boffins isn't it? I have not had anything to do with Volunteer Training for a few years but would not be surprised if the AQTF auditors found a few things wanting.