SA Firefighter

Technical Discussion => ALL Rescue => Topic started by: Darren on September 12, 2010, 05:18:47 PM

Title: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Darren on September 12, 2010, 05:18:47 PM
I have been told by people that the RCR upskills are being taught than rather than cut the B pillar in new cars to ram it, whilst this is interesting, and has a low success rate, is the CFS looking to upgrade the cutters or will they stick with the sub standard kit and just teach this?
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 12, 2010, 07:30:51 PM
Darren, you are sort of correct I did the RCR upskill today and another way is to do a roofline V shape relief cut near the top of the B pillar then use the RAM worked well and one of our brigade's in this region did  it not long ago and worked well. Mate CFS would need to get lots of MONEY to up date all 70+ RCR brigades with new gear and this is not going to happen over night. They still have brigades who's gear is pre 2000 and should be updated first.... We have along way to go and I am sure we will get there....
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Darren on September 12, 2010, 09:11:39 PM
I was just wondering why when they get new gear they don't go for the gear that can perform the task. Of course I understand it won't happen over night, but you have to start somewhere. The latest Lukas gear doesn't seem to perform much better than a basic set of RIV.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: crossy on September 12, 2010, 10:35:16 PM
hmm i disagree the new lukas equipment i used at STC would kill our old gear and the free flow couplings are much quicker to change tools and not to mention not having to have a pump operator. new dosen't have to mean more power, more efficent is better in my books..
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 13, 2010, 07:07:25 AM
The Lukas gear the STC have is the latest and works well we run lukas 2000 in Naracoorte and have never had a problem with it. As a rescue officer you have to have 2 if not 3 plans and that is what it is all about. Its not a matter of changing the cutter and spreaders you also have to change the pump and the couplings and at the momnet a full new RCR set is around $50,000 +

If you talk to a number of CFS RCR brigades tey all have their own choice of gear Lukas does have a bigger cut over Holmatro. In time I guess when funding is around we wil see the new gear.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Darren on September 13, 2010, 08:01:09 AM
A bigger cut than Holmatro.....I find that hard to believe. Ask the Mt Barker crew how they went using Lukas from another truck.

The cutters CFS provide from Lukas have the same cutting power as RIV. I am not saying Lukas can't do the job, but they need to spec the better cutter. Like it or not more and more of the basic cars are fitted with this higher tensile steel.

AGAIN what I said is not to replace the whole lot overnight, but surely if your buying new kits you would spec them to do this job. I know there are cutters that do this.

Has anyone seen the kit that comes on that rescue van..... :lol:
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Alan (Big Al) on September 13, 2010, 04:53:37 PM
The new lukas gear which is meant to be in competition with the core stuff from holmatro is not all that great from what i heard from a rarto! it wont cut through a b pillar on a ve commodore which the holmatro will!

Oh and on a side not it was nice to use our lukas gear today and not have it fail woo hoo
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: 6739264 on September 14, 2010, 12:54:15 AM
Darren, you are sort of correct I did the RCR upskill today and another way is to do a roofline V shape relief cut near the top of the B pillar then use the RAM worked well and one of our brigade's in this region did  it not long ago and worked well.

Where do you ram it from/to? Why not just pie cut the top and rip out the base?

hmm i disagree the new lukas equipment i used at STC would kill our old gear and the free flow couplings are much quicker to change tools and not to mention not having to have a pump operator. new dosen't have to mean more power, more efficent is better in my books..

"Free flow" couplings? What crazy equipment did you invent? Multistage simultaneous operation pumps and streamlined couplings are the norm now and are certainly not something that is exclusive to Lukas. If anything the Lukas/Hurst Streamline couplings are bulkier than most others on the market.

The Lukas gear the STC have is the latest and works well we run lukas 2000 in Naracoorte and have never had a problem with it. As a rescue officer you have to have 2 if not 3 plans and that is what it is all about. Its not a matter of changing the cutter and spreaders you also have to change the pump and the couplings and at the momnet a full new RCR set is around $50,000 +

If you talk to a number of CFS RCR brigades tey all have their own choice of gear Lukas does have a bigger cut over Holmatro. In time I guess when funding is around we wil see the new gear.

You most certainly DON'T have to change the pump and couplings. As long as you are using the same pressure across the system there is no issue. New style couplings can be retrofitted for around $150 per set.

As far as Lukas having a bigger cut, sure the highest rated, S511 Cutter can chop out 119t of force, compared to Holmatro 4055's 103.8t, but the 4055's Blade opening and geometry shits all over that of the S511. Also, are there any S511's in service? I believe the standard issue is the Lukas S510. Seeing as though we are actually getting the Holmatro 4055's in service, surely we should be comparing only the tools which the CFS are actually buying?

The cutters CFS provide from Lukas have the same cutting power as RIV. I am not saying Lukas can't do the job, but they need to spec the better cutter. Like it or not more and more of the basic cars are fitted with this higher tensile steel.

AGAIN what I said is not to replace the whole lot overnight, but surely if your buying new kits you would spec them to do this job. I know there are cutters that do this.

Ahhh... not quite. The highest rated Holmatro and Lukas Combi-Tools still falls far short of the Lukas S510's 90ton cutting power.

Personally, I don't like the Lukas gear, but yes it does work and it does do the job. I'd take Holmatro any day of the week, but that's not always realistic.

It's good to hear the CFS are starting to teach alternative techniques, but I don't think its going far enough.

How many operators can pull a car apart by hand? Can you destroy the car with just airtools? What about the recip saw? Does anyone teach tunneling from the boot/hatch?

Honestly the pie cut on the top of the B post has been around for years, why is it only just being taught? What about C/D Post pie cuts? Even the basic things like spreading a door from places OTHER than the hinge/lock (god forbid you use the roof rail!)

I don't quite understand the "Cut/Ram" B post maneuver? Where are you ramming from? The rear gusset? Front gusset? Middle of the A Post? Middle of the C Post? Opposite side? There are some great alternatives that leave the B Post intact, although I'm not a fan of this. Surely a B Post rip would achieve a positive outcome? Or even cutting the B Post out with the Recip saw (Oh wait, CFS don't issue Recip blades that can do that...)

There are a variety of alternatives that can be used that do not require the immediate purchase of brand new cutters. I've had a WRX with a Boron B post happily cut with a Holmatro GP cutters. Just a matter of isolating the Boron strips in the B Post and cutting them individually. It can be done and it doesn't need the latest and greatest gear...

Are the CFS teaching roof ramming? Cutting the roof out along the rails with the Recip or Air Chisel? There are many simple techniques that are going untaught...

Two days for an "RCR" Course, and then get a Fischer Price My First Rescue Truck Stowage kit...

Road Crash Rescue in CFS - Its a joke, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 14, 2010, 07:20:10 AM
Hey Numbers where did you get that price of $150 per coupling?? try $450 per coupling if it was that cheap we and other brigades would have done it by now....Spoke to a RARTO lst night and he said homatro will still not cut the B pillar in new tech cars....That is why they are going down the path of showing RAMMING and CROSS RAMMING....
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Darren on September 14, 2010, 11:55:31 AM
Are you sure, I have personally cut a new generation B pillar with the new Holmatro Core,whilst it was tough it certainly cut through it. It all depends on what kit you buy, if its the bottom end kit then its not going to happen.

See links listed

http://www.holmatro.com/rescue/en/Document/Download?baseModuleId=1360&documentId=5551

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2mdjz7Ptc

In my attempt to be unbiased I was unable to find anything of substance on google or youtube on Lukas.

It's good to see CFS teaching stuff to help you deal with the limitations of the equipment you have, but lets hope they realise that saving a few grand isn't always best in the long term.

I guess its a bit like Ford and Holden, I like Holmatro, found it better to use, simple as that.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: 6739264 on September 14, 2010, 04:31:52 PM
Hey Numbers where did you get that price of $150 per coupling?? try $450 per coupling if it was that cheap we and other brigades would have done it by now....Spoke to a RARTO lst night and he said homatro will still not cut the B pillar in new tech cars....That is why they are going down the path of showing RAMMING and CROSS RAMMING....

Shop around.

I'd suggest that your RARTO buddy doesn't know what he is talking about...

You would be aware though that the CFS are issuing Rams that are NOT capable of cross ramming wouldn't you? The current CFS standard rescue stowage is abysmal - you cannot cross ram, roof ram, floorpan flap or inverted ram with it due to the fact that CFS went with the cheap option, rather than the capable option.

So yes, we currently have techniques being taught on RCR courses that Brigades are unable to perform with the equipment they are being issued...

Go Figure.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 14, 2010, 07:55:05 PM
Numbers we did shop around and as there is only one firm that is CFS approved to do any work on RCR gear we are unable to use other firms.... However we are all now thinking that next year when that firm comes around that we ask them to give us a quote well before the service to do the change over in couplings....As for Lukas VIA Holmatro each RARTO has their own likes and dislikes of the gear I agree about the RAMS....
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: 6739264 on September 15, 2010, 07:38:43 PM
Numbers we did shop around and as there is only one firm that is CFS approved to do any work on RCR gear we are unable to use other firms.... However we are all now thinking that next year when that firm comes around that we ask them to give us a quote well before the service to do the change over in couplings....As for Lukas VIA Holmatro each RARTO has their own likes and dislikes of the gear I agree about the RAMS....

Only one firm approved to service ALL the different RCR sets that are around? Ok... Never thought I'd see a Lukas dealer working on Holmatro, but sure.

As for personal choice, not only do RARTO's have their personal choices, we all do. There are some things that don't come down to personal choice - Things like the capabilities of different tools. Statements like "Holmatro will still not cut through the B Pillar on New Tech Cars" are blatantly untrue and show more about the lack of skill and capabilities of an operator than they do of the tools.

I continue to be concerned about the skill, abilities and knowledge of some of our RARTO's.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: safireservice on September 15, 2010, 07:52:40 PM
I thought the company that did the servicing was PT Hydraulics?
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Darren on September 15, 2010, 08:05:18 PM
PT Hydraulics service Lukas, Chubb service Holmatro.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 15, 2010, 08:24:49 PM
PT will and do service both gear......
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: BundyBear on September 20, 2010, 12:22:15 PM
I have been told by people that the RCR upskills are being taught than rather than cut the B pillar in new cars to ram it, whilst this is interesting, and has a low success rate, is the CFS looking to upgrade the cutters or will they stick with the sub standard kit and just teach this?

Darren, I think your mates were not listening at the upskill ramming from the sill to the cant rail to pull away the B pillar from the roof section of the vehicle is just another technique shown to give Rescue operators/officers more options.Same as the tunneling techniqueto show access the rear of a sedan.

Streamline couplings

Are an extra cost and yes they make connecting tools to hoses easy and can be done whilst under pressure. This can all be acheived by the Holmatro core gear and is way less bulky and cumbersome than the Lukas streamline coupling but for the Lukas gear they are better than connecting two hoses.

As for the Holmatro cutters not cutting through i think this may be a false statement as I've had no issues with cutting through B pillars and the Holmatro cutters have a better geometry design than the Lukas and the dead man handle to open and close tools seems to be nicer to use than the control mechanism on the Lukas gear.

I think most of the RARTO's seem to favour the Lukas gear as most of them are from stations that have either new Lukas gear or older generation Holmatro. I think there is only a couple of CFS brigades and MFS that use the new Holmatro gear with core technology hoses.

Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Alan (Big Al) on September 20, 2010, 03:21:43 PM
Are there any CFS out there using the CORE Holmatro gear??
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Darren on September 20, 2010, 07:56:22 PM
I know at least TTG is using it, they were trialling the kit, I heard that Crystal Brook also has some, but can't be 100% sure.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: 6739264 on September 21, 2010, 11:13:23 AM
I have been told by people that the RCR upskills are being taught than rather than cut the B pillar in new cars to ram it, whilst this is interesting, and has a low success rate, is the CFS looking to upgrade the cutters or will they stick with the sub standard kit and just teach this?

Darren, I think your mates were not listening at the upskill ramming from the sill to the cant rail to pull away the B pillar from the roof section of the vehicle is just another technique shown to give Rescue operators/officers more options.Same as the tunneling techniqueto show access the rear of a sedan.

So why then are the CFS again teaching a technique and then issuing equipment that is unable to perform the task?
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: pumprescue on September 21, 2010, 11:19:59 AM
Because Arthur refuses to buy them proper kit, in fact I heard his latest effort is to remove a ram from the kit, so you get 1 ram now.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 21, 2010, 05:09:48 PM
Number I rang around today to see who would do the coupling change over and NO ONE will touch it as CFS have a Contract with PT that is what 3 firms in SA have said...One firm said if they where to do it they would no longer be able to do any work for Holmatro .....
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: bajdas on September 22, 2010, 10:38:32 AM
For my curiosity.... is the RCR kit in SES vehicles (eg Murray Bridge & Mt Gambier) and MFS retained stations able to do what is being discussed ?

Also, is the gear connectable to the CFS gear so equipment can be shared at a major incident (old issue identified between services from Granville Train Crash incident in 1977)
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: CFS_Firey on September 22, 2010, 11:20:29 AM
One firm said if they where to do it they would no longer be able to do any work for Holmatro .....

Good to hear Holmatro keep their workers pure!  We wouldn't want any filthy Lukas germs to soil our Holmatro! (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/One-drop_rule)
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: rescue5271 on September 22, 2010, 07:23:14 PM
For my curiosity.... is the RCR kit in SES vehicles (eg Murray Bridge & Mt Gambier) and MFS retained stations able to do what is being discussed ?

Also, is the gear connectable to the CFS gear so equipment can be shared at a major incident (old issue identified between services from Granville Train Crash incident in 1977)

In this region our gear is not connectable to SES as they have gone ahead with the coupling changes, it is the same if we go into Victoria as they are all running the new coupling system in CFA and SES rescues....
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: 6739264 on September 23, 2010, 12:19:53 PM
For my curiosity.... is the RCR kit in SES vehicles (eg Murray Bridge & Mt Gambier) and MFS retained stations able to do what is being discussed ?

Also, is the gear connectable to the CFS gear so equipment can be shared at a major incident (old issue identified between services from Granville Train Crash incident in 1977)

In this region our gear is not connectable to SES as they have gone ahead with the coupling changes, it is the same if we go into Victoria as they are all running the new coupling system in CFA and SES rescues....

It all depends on the local services in any area. There are places that have three adjacent brigades with different brand/pressure/couplings. Its a nightmare.

Mind you, you would hope that in a large scale incident, you wouldn't need to be connecting multiple sets of gear together, as each appliance with its Rescue gear should be an independent unit.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Big Yellow Gongbeater on October 28, 2010, 04:24:46 PM
Dead set no wonder some of you are volunteers and not paid to do the job, because you don't listen!

The verticle ramming was shown as a trial and you were privvy to providing input and to assess if its going to be a valid technique.

Tunneling is an advanced technique being reintroduced to experienced rescue operators as another method to work around new car technology

Yes Arthur is still stuck in Enerpak/Fag Lukas land and is only going to issue 1 ram (Give the man a Darwin award  :?)

Holmatro 3000 series cutters fitted with NCT blades are meant to be able to handle new technology materials (According to Holmatro)

Core Technology most likely won't be widely introduced to CFS due some issues with hoses overseas (one of them being not liking hot environments) and the inability to visually inspect the inner hose.

Streamline couplings have many advantages, even allowing a Lukas tool to run on a Holmatro pump and vice versa (Holmatro/Chubb are not particularly happy with this)

So maybe next time some of you should actually listen to what you are told, and not go off half cocked and making yourself look exceedingly stupid on the internet!
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: misterteddy on October 29, 2010, 06:26:55 AM
So maybe next time some of you should actually listen to what you are told, and not go off half cocked and making yourself look exceedingly stupid on the internet!

as opposed to opening one's mouth and removing all doubt  :|
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: bajdas on October 29, 2010, 12:49:29 PM
Dead set no wonder some of you are volunteers and not paid to do the job, because you don't listen!
......
So maybe next time some of you should actually listen to what you are told, and not go off half cocked and making yourself look exceedingly stupid on the internet!

Without being to identify the author of majority of the postings on this forum, I always take them has personal opinions. Because I do not know who you are, what you do or your experience.

Everyone is entitled to their person opinions and the are NEVER STUPID for expressing them.
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: Big Yellow Gongbeater on October 30, 2010, 03:20:53 PM

Everyone is entitled to their person opinions and the are NEVER STUPID for expressing them.
[/quote]

That would be true if many of the opinions proffered in these forums were not purported to be factual statements  :lol:
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: 6739264 on November 03, 2010, 10:51:19 PM

Everyone is entitled to their person opinions and the are NEVER STUPID for expressing them.

That would be true if many of the opinions proffered in these forums were not purported to be factual statements  :lol:
[/quote]

Awww look at the cute little hypocrite! :D
Title: Re: Interesting techniques being taught
Post by: pumprescue on November 04, 2010, 10:45:44 AM
Must be a CFS staff member.....