SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Camo on January 10, 2007, 05:02:42 PM
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It appears as though some brigades are only just completing their burnover training. What are your thoughts?
Should of been done along time ago but better late then never.
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It was meant to be completed before the fire season...... which this year started early, and caught many brigades on the hop...so I think it sort of defaulted to Dec 1st - and since we were well into the fire season by then, I think it is rather poor that people are now completing the training...
But, better late then never I suppose!
Pip
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in my opinion burn-over training is most probably the most important training you will ever do!!
i think it is irresponsible for brigades to have waited so long to do it, its not like it takes all that long to go through!!
*Pixie*
P.S. this training saved our crews life at the Mount Bold fire last night!!
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Can you tell us the story of wht happened last night? Did you get caught in a nasty spot?
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we were driving along either razorback or saddlebags roads, not too sure which one, all i can really remember is it getting f***ing hot, embers covering the truck, and me diving into the crew protection area with my branch spraying on a fog over the top of us...
i think it happened just as the southerly change came in. And it blew it back onto us. will find out full story from officer when we have a proper debrief (rather than the one held at 3:30 this morn)
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we were driving along either razorback or saddlebags roads, not too sure which one, all i can really remember is it getting f***ing hot, embers covering the truck, and me diving into the crew protection area with my branch spraying on a fog over the top of us...
i think it happened just as the southerly change came in. And it blew it back onto us. will find out full story from officer when we have a proper debrief (rather than the one held at 3:30 this morn)
we copped a similar thing. just huge ember attacks. fog made it better.
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not pointing the finger or directlyhaving a go at anyone... it sounds as though a lot of crews were putting themselves in unnecessary situations and high levels of danger yesterday...
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When the fire covers 3kms in 15 minutes you dont get much warning....and the wind also changed direction three times.
Asset protection mode was established by pretty much all the initial responding appliances and there were many great saves and some fab work by the helitacks who supported our efforts....and no loss of life :wink:
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not pointing the finger or directlyhaving a go at anyone... it sounds as though a lot of crews were putting themselves in unnecessary situations and high levels of danger yesterday...
Isn't that the domain of fire fighters :-D
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I'm not gonna get involved with this discussion because I wasn't at that fire in the hills although I did listen to the whole situation unfold courtesy of the online scanners
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not pointing the finger or directlyhaving a go at anyone... it sounds as though a lot of crews were putting themselves in unnecessary situations and high levels of danger yesterday...
Isn't that the domain of fire fighters :-D
true firefrog...... :wink:
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I'm not gonna get involved with this discussion because I wasn't at that fire in the hills although I did listen to the whole situation unfold courtesy of the online scanners
Thats interesting....have you done yours yet?
We have only been discussing it for the last 4 months :-D
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Do Group Officers do any Burnover training? Our Group Officer sent a team off to Mt Bold fire on a truck that no one has used before. It is last years model so no one nows how to use the Halo system or the Air Breathing System in it, none of them have used this truck at all. This sounds a bit dangerous to me and silly. We tried to tell the G O that they need a little bit of training just like we did when we got it but he said its going they need the twin cab and the air con. Who can we talk to?
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As our 34 is the same as yours and the only one in the group then it only goes on strike teams with a composite crew if there is someone of experience or a driver from our brigade!!! Putting a crew on a truck they have never used before is stupidity!!!! I think your GO needs to get a grip and look past the A/C and comfort and look at the safety of his firefighters.
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They where sent back early but they have stuffed up so much on the truck its unreal. they will be putting in about 15 near miss forms. They are also going to send in a letter of concern in to the Group so it can come up at the Group meeting. They also believe now that it should only be a composite crew, they ended up only driving at about 80kms too light on they steering for them.
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All our group officers have done the training as have all our brigades within the group...How ever there are still brigades in the region that have not done it and I dont think they will till someone gives them a BIG PUSH......
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All our group officers have done the training as have all our brigades within the group...How ever there are still brigades in the region that have not done it and I dont think they will till someone gives them a BIG PUSH......
You hit the nail right on the head blinky all they need is a big push
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All our group officers have done the training as have all our brigades within the group...How ever there are still brigades in the region that have not done it and I dont think they will till someone gives them a BIG PUSH......
You hit the nail right on the head blinky all they need is a big push
If they dont do it someone needs to give the Regional Commander the BIG PUSH for not enforcing a mandatory policy throughout the Region.OMG how many times have we discussed this.
OHS&W guys so if you are not doing Burnover Training you are also placing the other crews that have at risk because you are not up to speed with it.
EVERYONE REMEMBER THE LINTON FIRES 5 CFA FIREFIGHTERS DIED 12M FROM SAFETY
AFTER A BURNOVER......SO DO IT NOW :evil:
The front page of THE AUSTRALIAN 4th DECEMBER 1998 will be embedded in my mind forever of what happens :-(
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With the fires we have already had and the ones we may still have in this state, what brigate is silly enough not to do the mandatory burn over training. Burnovers do happen just ask some of the crews at Mt Bold last week.
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A lot of apathy is being shown with the "it wont happen to me attitude" and as professionals I would have thought burnover training would have been their priority.....but obviously NOT :evil:
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People are forgeting that burnover training isn't the only important training you need to do pre fire season, Deadman zone training is just as important as burnover training, if you can understand the concept of wind speed/change + slope + fuel loading, anchor points etc, you shouldn't find yourself in a position where you need to use your burn over training. Not saying that burnover training is not important,it should go hand in hand with deadman zone.
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I agree Jasec but unfortunately fires dont always follow the rules.
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Exactly Burnover Training and Deadman Zone Training go hand in hand.
Another point to make is when an appliance drives into the driveway of a house so we can turn around and face the exit point,dont follow right up our donkey only to discover you cant turn two appliances around in the same backyard :x :evil:
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People are forgeting that burnover training isn't the only important training you need to do pre fire season, Deadman zone training is just as important as burnover training, if you can understand the concept of wind speed/change + slope + fuel loading, anchor points etc, you shouldn't find yourself in a position where you need to use your burn over training. Not saying that burnover training is not important,it should go hand in hand with deadman zone.
What we do is watch the Deadman Zone video thn go out and do the burn over drill. thought that was what was meant to happen...
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As a GTO, it is pleasing to hear that people do take burnover drill seriously. This fire season has so far produced around 10 burnovers with some crew admitting that without the training they would have been in trouble. Those people who dont take it seriously and practice it often (i condone once a month during the fire season) should wake up to themselves.
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What we do is watch the Deadman Zone video thn go out and do the burn over drill. thought that was what was meant to happen...
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I think it is, but some brigades seem to have forgoten about Deadman zone since the burnover training has really come into play in the last couple of years.
Its been around since i started as a youngster, its just been revamped and made into an official training package.
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It was taught in Basic Firemanship in EFS 30 years ago :mrgreen:
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It was taught in Basic Firemanship in EFS 30 years ago :mrgreen:
Correct, so its by no means a new thing, just has had updates and improvements to keep it in line with the updates and improvements of our vehicles.
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One thing i have never liked about the way the burnover procedure is done is how you have to hold the branch out from under the rear cabin shield.
Would be nice to have something fitted to where the montiors go that squirts a fog of water over the crew deck.
Would this work?
Does the new cab halo system cover the rear crew deck also?
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cam,in the new 34 all crew must get into the cab and not stay on the rear but if they are on the rear they still have the deck lines to protect them....
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One thing i have never liked about the way the burnover procedure is done is how you have to hold the branch out from under the rear cabin shield.
Would be nice to have something fitted to where the montiors go that squirts a fog of water over the crew deck.
Would this work?
Does the new cab halo system cover the rear crew deck also?
Halo system is just directed on the cab windows mate.
As long as you had water, I would have thought you would be better off on the rear deck under the crew protection awning that comes down..(Talking new 34's etc here) Along with the safety lines and pump control.. You have the same protection as is being offered in the cab with the blinds, only you have 2 hoselines to protect you further?
Guess you would have to experience both in a burnover to work out which is best.. & Ideally none would be the answer..
8-)
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one thing that I didn't get taught at burn over training that has occurred to me now is that it isn't uncommon to be on 5 to 10 lengths of lay flat away from the truck. Chances are you wont hear the yelp and if you do it is any ware from 2-20 min walk to the truck thought scrub and goat country. not to mention that the conditions at the truck could be very different that the conditions at the end of the hose.
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so what is your point?
the theory is get inside the truck as fast as possible.... :-P
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The point is that I might be 7 lengths of hoe from the truck and on burnt ground in a safe environment where by the time i can get to the truck the threat has passed or staying at the end of the hose is safer than running through unburnt scrub to get to the appliance where i am more likely to get caught.
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mmm but cfs doesnt take logic into account.....
but ill let you in on a secret.... personally i wouldnt run through a wall of flame to get into the burning truck :wink:
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bearing in mind, the reason yopur on that line is becasue u are at the fire edge... now when the truck burns, its gonna melt the hose, and no more water for you..... butyeh
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The point is that I might be 7 lengths of hoe from the truck and on burnt ground in a safe environment where by the time i can get to the truck the threat has passed or staying at the end of the hose is safer than running through unburnt scrub to get to the appliance where i am more likely to get caught.
How long is 7 lengths of a hoe?
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Come on Cameron..surely you have 7 hoes on your truck, and can lay them out end for end, and work that out (taking into account that many hoes will have different length handles, due to some being broken and repaired numerous times....) :evil: :-D
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depends on the what sort of hoe you are talking about? :-D
We carry two rake hoes. Dont need any more as there is only ever two people on the truck willing to use them.
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The point is that I might be 7 lengths of hoe from the truck and on burnt ground in a safe environment where by the time i can get to the truck the threat has passed or staying at the end of the hose is safer than running through unburnt scrub to get to the appliance where i am more likely to get caught.
How long is 7 lengths of a hoe?
Er hello I think you mean 7 lengths of HOSE :-D
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HMMM yeh we can fit 7 hoes on our truck.....
there pimps get a bit upset though
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:lol:
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Haha :evil:very funny alright I meant Hose
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lol just wot i needed. :-D
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one thing that I didn't get taught at burn over training that has occurred to me now is that it isn't uncommon to be on 5 to 10 lengths of lay flat away from the truck. Chances are you wont hear the yelp and if you do it is any ware from 2-20 min walk to the truck thought scrub and goat country. not to mention that the conditions at the truck could be very different that the conditions at the end of the hose.
Id be asking some serious question about the decision making of your officer, sector comm, or strike team leader if they are putting you 5-10 hose lengths away from the truck in situation where a REAL burnover might happen. :?
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mmmmm now that is how people get hurt how can you be 5 to 10 lenghts into a fire and then have to race back to ya appliance??? mmmmm some mother do have em.......always take a radio with you
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Well our GO said if we use more than 2 lenghts of hose he will come up and cut the 3 hose.
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Well our GO said if we use more than 2 lenghts of hose he will come up and cut the 3 hose.
Correct, using anymore than that is stupid, they are 30mtr lenghts the only time you would use 3-4 lengths is to mop up whilst making an edge safe ie 100mtr blackout and defiantly not during direct attack on a fire, you have a death wish chasing a fire that far into the scrub.
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Well our GO said if we use more than 2 lenghts of hose he will come up and cut the 3 hose.
Correct, using anymore than that is stupid, they are 30mtr lenghts the only time you would use 3-4 lengths is to mop up whilst making an edge safe ie 100mtr blackout and defiantly not during direct attack on a fire, you have a death wish chasing a fire that far into the scrub.
I disagree... If you're working your way along the flank of a fire you can easily use 3-4 lengths while still having safe burnt ground nearby... 3-4 lengths to simply get to the fire is a different matter though... Is that what you mean?
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Well at onka gorge I was chasing the fire initially through thick scrub and then over burnt ground from behind so wasn't really in a burn over situation but that is an example.
In the Mt lofty rangers it is sometimes impossible to get a truck to within 60m of the fire anyway.
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I disagree... If you're working your way along the flank of a fire you can easily use 3-4 lengths while still having safe burnt ground nearby... 3-4 lengths to simply get to the fire is a different matter though... Is that what you mean?
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Thats a better way of putting it. :wink:
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>Quote from: backburn on January 31, 2007, 10:45:02 PM
>Well our GO said if we use more than 2 lenghts of hose he will come up and cut >the 3 hose.
>Correct, using anymore than that is stupid, they are 30mtr lenghts the only >time you would use 3-4 lengths is to mop up whilst making an edge safe ie >100mtr blackout and defiantly not during direct attack on a fire, you have a >death wish chasing a fire that far into the scrub.
Interesting. How are we meant to get to fires in scrub or plantations?
SE trucks carry 5 lengths of forestry hose, and often have to poach from other trucks. At a recent incident there was a CFS 34 pressure boosting a FSA fire king, which in turn was pushing through 30 lengths of forestry hose (30m a piece).
There's no was we'd get anything wrapped up if we were only allowed to use two lengths of hose.
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I'd hate to be the one making up 900+ metres of hose!! If the fires in that far just let it burn :evil:
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if only it was that easy get it quick and stop it spreading sounds good to me
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You must remember that this whole post is about burnover training, if you are at a fire that is slow moving, no wind and on flat ground you are most probably going to be in conditions that will lead to burnover, so yeah go in and chase it, but we are talking burnover, you don't go chasing fires that are moving fast with high winds or on sloping ground. :wink:
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I'd hate to be the one making up 900+ metres of hose!! If the fires in that far just let it burn :evil:
Forestry SA get quite knarky if they lose too many trees. A Forestry SA worker once told me (true or not, im not sure) each fully grown pine tree is worth $30 each. Thats quite a lot of dosh over a 1000HA(?) block of pines.
And they dont have a big enough budget to replace large amounts of trees that are lost by fire.
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Surely something growing to be sold would be insured if not then they're idgits.
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I'd hate to be the one making up 900+ metres of hose!! If the fires in that far just let it burn :evil:
Forestry SA get quite knarky if they lose too many trees. A Forestry SA worker once told me (true or not, im not sure) each fully grown pine tree is worth $30 each. Thats quite a lot of dosh over a 1000HA(?) block of pines.
And they dont have a big enough budget to replace large amounts of trees that are lost by fire.
Errrr Whats your life worth Camo :evil:
Screw the trees :roll:
Im with Mundcfs on that one :wink:
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I'd hate to be the one making up 900+ metres of hose!! If the fires in that far just let it burn :evil:
Forestry SA get quite knarky if they lose too many trees. A Forestry SA worker once told me (true or not, im not sure) each fully grown pine tree is worth $30 each. Thats quite a lot of dosh over a 1000HA(?) block of pines.
And they dont have a big enough budget to replace large amounts of trees that are lost by fire.
Errrr Whats your life worth Camo :evil:
Screw the trees :roll:
Im with Mundcfs on that one :wink:
Im with you guys, my life or my crews life Vs trees. Its a no brainer
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Surely something growing to be sold would be insured if not then they're idgits.
Pretty sure they self insure.
Im referring to Forestry SA crews. They will chase anything in the forest. CFS's role is usualy wait until it comes out.
Most forest blocks are 1 square kilometre so unless it dead in the centre usually its less then 500m of hose.
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Money overiding sense :-P
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The irony of the Forrestry SA thing, is that they want us to minimise damage to their forrests from fires that they quite often start. If they only had active fire cover during their operations.......
Of course i'm not saying that all fires are caused by their operations, but i have been to a few that were started on the job.
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Burnover our favourite topic on this forum
I was doing some reserach and came across this interesting information a good read
http://www.csu.edu.au/special/bushfire99/papers/paix/
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FSA often do have fire cover while they are working in the forest. Quite often you drive past them and see a fire king or 2 parked on a track or next to the edge of the forest where they are.
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What you probaly seen athol is the crews that operate the fire kings are also the pruning crew.
so they keep the trucks nearby for a quick response.
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I was wondering why I saw a fire king with a wood chipper hooked up to the back of it the other day Camo?
I wonder if the Fire Kings have to do Burnover training?
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Yes, crew on Firekings do burnover training. A constant yip from the appliance and all crew pile inside the cabin, pull across the reflective stuff on the windows, hit a big red button which sets the sprinkler system going, shuts the vents, puts the air con on, and then you sit back and read a book.
If I'd pick any appliance to be in during a burnover it would be a Fireking - they've been subjected to something like 2000degC and the cabin has risen to a relatively cool 50, and then they've driven the thing off the hot pad - woohoo! :wink:
Steve will be able to give us more accurate stats.
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But seriously, it is just like driving in a weber tho??
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I thought 1000 degrees equates to 60 degrees in the cab. Your probaly only going to be subjected to this heat for a few minutes i guess.
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try up to 10 mins camo........
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plus the time it takes for the heat to dissapate...
would stay hot for quite a while after the initial attack
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try up to 10 mins camo........
Few? 10? close enough but really what would the average be? Most would be at the lower end of the scale - 5mins tops.
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Hmmm. Not sure how long the water lasts if you're spurting it out of all the sprays to protect the Fireking. You'd wanna turn it on at the last minute for sure. And remember the a/c cools down the cabin too.
Where is Mr steved01? *calls out*
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But seriously, it is just like driving in a weber tho??
Thats waht the CFA guys call them...WEBERS :-P
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Just a few points on this discussion:
ForestrySA do the same CFS burnover training as everyone else.
ForestrySA also do the Deadman Zone training.
ForestrySA does BBFF1, Suppress Wildfire, Leadership, AIIMS, ....... and everything else a rural brigare should.
There was no pressure boosting of a FireKing at the Bluff fire, you just cant pressure boost a fire king.
There were no 30 length hose lays at the Bluff Fire.
The safest place to be is on the burnt edge, whether its one length or twenty lengths away from the truck.
ForestrySA has attended 76 fires to date this year, only 1 was started accidentally by an employee (with a slasher).
The vast majority of fires that ForestrySA attends are away from the forest.
The biggest causes of fires in forests are lightning and arson.
Anything else, just ask!
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Quite agree - the 30 length hose lays weren't at the bluff!
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They may not have been at the bluff, but they were at some other fires.. :-(
Pip
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For those that have done the forestry hose lay course you will know that CFS say 10 lenghts is the max,so if a officer tells you to lay more hose I think I would question him/her on this and may be bring them back into the real world...
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If you're laying that much hose maybe you should have gone in from the other side of the plantation compartment :lol:
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Must also have a big pump to do that much pumping of water...
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Especially if it's up a hill like the side of the Bluff :-P *phew*
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Blue, Remember the fireking we were working with on the side of the bluff friday night?
That was about 6 lengths up a 30 degree? angle and the fireking was screaming. Imagine a CFS truck trying to do that. haha :lol:
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Have heard stories about NSW fires in the 90`s. 4-5 CFS appliances were stripped of hose to do a hose lay down hill. The pump was just ticking over due to the gain in gravity.
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Cam,the fireking that we were working near had 10 lenghts of hose out up a hill no crew at applinace pump running like mad..They where being filled all the time by the tanker that just came and filled them and that was all it did..
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Yes indeedy I remember Cam - wasn't just the Fireking screaming, so were my calves after going back and forth with a strangler and trying to find the owner of that torch :lol: I counted six lengths of hose, but then it did go off across the hill face too at one stage? You're right, we may well have blown up a 24 doing the same thing :-P
There were no crew at that Fireking cos in fact they are run by trained monkeys. These monkeys sit on the rear dead reel when they aren't busy.