SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Camo on December 07, 2006, 04:16:08 PM
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Gday,
The dirty task that is mopping up....everyone hates it but without it you might as well have not even bothered to respond in the first place! Agree?
How does everyone conduct there mop up? grassland and scrub/forest.
Grass - our brigade runs one or both sidelines down the side of the truck tied off to the bull bar and then 10-15m of hose from there. This allows the driver to see where his crew is and be able to spot out hot spots the crew may have missed with the PA.
Scrub/Forest - Our brigade uses a homemade foam branch that produces great foam coverage (for both grass and scrub)& a rakehoe. 20-30m into the scrub unless otherwised specified. Leaving no log unturned and no stump hole left uninspected.
Now my pet hate - People mopping up from the workdeck of the appliance! Anyone on here that is dumb enough to admit it - all i can say you lazy person! A great way to waste your time, water & effort.
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even the ones that chase fires from the back of the truck... admittedly it is faster, but sometimes a compete waste of time.
at the onka gorge the other day, witnessed a crew doing this, but they were flipping hopeless, it just kept on reigniting behind them.... waste of time and water really.
we get out there and black it up however the IC has requested... :wink:
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It was an effort just to get someone to relay water to our appliance,let alone mopup.IC not answering radio and a half hour wait for water which in the meantime we lost it and away it went....oh well we tried :evil:
Cant wait for the debrief :x
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even the ones that chase fires from the back of the truck... admittedly it is faster, but sometimes a compete waste of time.
at the onka gorge the other day, witnessed a crew doing this, but they were flipping hopeless, it just kept on reigniting behind them.... waste of time and water really.
Depends on where you are from and the situation. Down here near the south pole its quite and effective way to fight grass fires if you know what your doing. Otherwise yes its a waste of time. So is mopping up a forest fire from the back of the truck.
At the recent Burrungle Fire near Mt Gambier i witnessed at least 3 trucks doing it from the top of the truck, they all squirted the same stump that was burning. Guess what it was still burning when we left the fireground that evening. Wasnt extinguished properly until the next day when our crew went through on mop up duties.
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To mop up every log stump and anything must be hit. Camo those trucks that hit the same stump sound like they were attacking the fire? At the onka gorge fire we were chasing the head and the only accsesable route was across the burnt ground which meant hit it with foam and move on to get to this fire but it also meant we had to watch our backs but if we had been going through like it was a mop up there would have been no chance of catching the fire.
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even the ones that chase fires from the back of the truck... admittedly it is faster, but sometimes a compete waste of time.
at the onka gorge the other day, witnessed a crew doing this, but they were flipping hopeless, it just kept on reigniting behind them.... waste of time and water really.
we get out there and black it up however the IC has requested... :wink:
People that say this haven't spent much time on grass or cropping land. Some running grassies can't be stopped any other way! It's just another tactic that is available there is no right or wrong tactic. It's the OIC's choice which method of attack is used.
I have seen grassies running so fast the appliances can hardly keep up. How can you a use the off the truck method in this case? Crews that are well trained and understand how to fight from the crew deck do a fantastic job. There is a right and wrong way of fighting from the deck. I am talking about knock down not mopping up. :-) And I agree that mopping up done from the deck is less than adequate in most cases.
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too true firefrog...you can't knock down a running grass/crop fire from anywhere but on the appliance...however...mopping up is only done properly from dragging out the side lines...
You can see the lazy brigades though...probably couldn't remember the last time they dragged side lines out.. :evil:
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We just got these foam nozzles for our sidelindes specifically for mopping up they are great, set the Foam unit on .1% and away you go the coverage is almost as good as running at 6%. All i can say is fantastic and they make your water last forever.
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We mop up using the hose reels and layflat hose. We mark an area and dont leave it till we as sure it is done. Aint going back again.
We did the night shift at Onk gorge recently. We turn all the lights off and let the hotspots tell us where they are.Use a hand torch for locating those pesky obsticles. Also use a torch to find the smokers.
Seems to work ok
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To mop up every log stump and anything must be hit. Camo those trucks that hit the same stump sound like they were attacking the fire? At the onka gorge fire we were chasing the head and the only accsesable route was across the burnt ground which meant hit it with foam and move on to get to this fire but it also meant we had to watch our backs but if we had been going through like it was a mop up there would have been no chance of catching the fire.
This was after the fire was contained.
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even the ones that chase fires from the back of the truck... admittedly it is faster, but sometimes a compete waste of time.
at the onka gorge the other day, witnessed a crew doing this, but they were flipping hopeless, it just kept on reigniting behind them.... waste of time and water really.
we get out there and black it up however the IC has requested... :wink:
People that say this haven't spent much time on grass or cropping land. Some running grassies can't be stopped any other way! It's just another tactic that is available there is no right or wrong tactic. It's the OIC's choice which method of attack is used.
I have seen grassies running so fast the appliances can hardly keep up. How can you a use the off the truck method in this case? Crews that are well trained and understand how to fight from the crew deck do a fantastic job. There is a right and wrong way of fighting from the deck. I am talking about knock down not mopping up. :-) And I agree that mopping up done from the deck is less than adequate in most cases.
people that say this didnt read my post very carefully :wink:
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yes I did and knew I would get a little nibble from you..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I understood what you meant :wink:
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We use sidelines,but now and then you have to do a hose lay,cam some crews at that fire just stayed on the deck and used top lines why who the F knows........
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Admittingly, every fire is different, and relies on different tactics.. But I agree, to this day I have not seen a job where mopping up from the crew deck would achieve anything.. :lol:
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To mop up properly after any fire in vegetation, I think you have to get off the truck, and drag your hoses out to be able to do the job properly (how can you find all the hot spots, if you don't get off the appliance?
However, how far you drag the hoses can generate some interesting discussion.....a recent fire, my crews were told to mop up with 28 lengths of lay flat (twenty eight is not a typo).. that is 28 all joined together ... :-o to me, that is taking things to extreme....
Pip
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Um 28 that is 28x30=840m now that is huge. I know our 24 carries 5 lengths of layflat that means you need another 23 where do they come from? and a 24 would have a great deal of trouble pumping down that much hose.
I have usually been told 30-50m depending on weather and surrounding vegetation.
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Yep...it was huge....many hoses off many appliances - the hoses, as I understand it, we left behind by appliances, that had gone home, and left hoses specifically for the mopping up.....
The appliances were at the top of the hill, and hoses fed down....so pumping wasn't an issue in this case.... but crews had to drag the hoses up the hill, and move them, and then down again.
Another issue was that the pump operator was adjacent to the appliance, other crew members were at the other end of the hose, they couldn't see each other, and the terrain meant that the VHF radios wouldn't work.
At one point, one of the hoses burst - the pump operator didn't know, as the water was flowing, the crew at the other end didn't know it had burst, and were cursing the pump operator for not turning the water on......and it is a long walk to find the hose had burst.... :-(
I am all for mopping up properly, and 50 to 100 metres, in the current conditions, is generally acceptable. But to mop up 800 metres into the burnt ground... ? not so sure that is working smarter...appears just working harder.....
Pip
PS According to my driver, he was happy to drive the appliance into the area to black out, but was told that it "might damage the vegetation" :?
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PS According to my driver, he was happy to drive the appliance into the area to black out, but was told that it "might damage the vegetation" :?
Surely it was already damaged by ...um....er....a FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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an unfortunate result of Black Tuesday....we were trying to black out 60m...and it wasn't enough...hence the overkill from here on...a bit of perspective required I think...
I'm surprised your crew didn't revolt Pip...I couldn't ask any crews to run out 28 lengths...I would have been laughed out of the IMT... :lol:
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My crew did bring it to the attention of the Sector Commander, who, according to my crew, laughed off their concerns... :-(
My crew certainly had a spit when they came back..... they will be very reluctant to go and play in that area again....
And we figured that the 100% black out came out of the experiences of Black Tuesday...... the other side of the fire had 16 lengths of hose.... and the crews were expected to completely extinguish EVERYTHING in that space..... and that was a week AFTER the fire had started, and been contained...
Pip
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Its going to be a good season for the suppliers of 25mm layflat,there was at least 12 lenghts plus lost at Onka Gorge :-P
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"lost" ?? broken? or actually missing... lol
on a side note, i believe a combined crew from Blackwood and Concordia ran an 800m plus line off of Blackwood 24 to black out during a night shift at Humbug Scrtub.... that would have been just as much fun pip.
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I understand the need to minimise reignition but there has to be a limit. Total blackout can not be achieved on a fire of that size.
Anything more then 100m would warrant a stern word with the IC!
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It only takes 1 little branch, twig or leaf to ignite over a containment line... mission impossible to completely extinguish some of these fires...sounds like common sense gone missing :wink:
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an unfortunate result of Black Tuesday....we were trying to black out 60m...and it wasn't enough...hence the overkill from here on...a bit of perspective required I think...
I'm surprised your crew didn't revolt Pip...I couldn't ask any crews to run out 28 lengths...I would have been laughed out of the IMT... :lol:
28 lengths what appliance holds that many :-D
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Yeah...28 lengths...we probably wouldn't have that many in our GROUP! lucky to have 2 lengths each appliance...makes it easy to say that we can't do it.. :lol:
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yeah it's funny but I've noticed some other brigades/areas don't seem to have many hoses on appliances. We have about 6x25, 4x38, 3x64 (roughly) in our primary appliance (a 24), are we just well-equipped? (cos I reckon we need them all).
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well we have 4x64 5x38 and 5 ish 25mm but the 25 mm aren't all 30m they range from 20 - 30 due to repairs over time. Personally we need them all and being a hils brigade having to run 64s up driveways and the like isn't unusal.
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We carry 6x64mm, 5x38mm, and 2x25mm on urban and
3x64mm, 3x38mm, and 2x25mm on rural truck!!
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and that is the correct stowage kit for those applinces,keep in mind people the more you put onto an appliances the more over weight it is and then you will run into problems.....
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We carry the original stowage kit. The recent stowage kit is half the ammount of hoses which was carried. Love them layflat hoses.
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I am looking at making a layflat hose real for the appliances.
Anyone got any ideas about a layflat hose winder for appliances. We tend to throw them onto the deck when in a hurry, then it becomes an OH7S situation.
Or is there a layflat hose reel that is already available from a supplier :-)
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I've put 2 pictures of hose winders in the gallery, I think:
http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=65&g2_itemId=625 (http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=65&g2_itemId=625)
they are full size images but clicking on them just seems to display thumbnails for me anyway.
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The Basket Range hose winder is depicted in Darius's folder (see the link he posted).
The handle was designed & made by one of the Basket Range members. It fits under the tray of 24's, 34's and the new 14's, and is capable of winding 25mm, 38mm & 64 mm hoses. It means that people can stand up straight while they roll hoses.
The designer is happy to make up more. PM me if you want more info
Pip
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Hey ...thanks Pip & Darius...Email coming your way Pip
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WOW this is the best fire ground innovation I think I have seen! I can hear the purists saying "back in my day we did it tough yada yada yada" The saved time and safety of rolling hose with this winder must be huge...
Really good idea!!!!
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Well at Cox's scrub fire the other night there was one brigade that i never once saw off the truck mopping up always just doing it from the top deck, it was absolutly useless!! :oops:
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can we get a full size pic placed on this thread? when i go into the gallery its only a tiny pic even after i click on it.
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Gallery is displaying full pic for me. But here tis for you
(http://www.safirefighter.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=634&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=65afcc5ac9e1ca0adf8756e377b7bd91)
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Froggie your pic doesnt even come up for me.
what is going on with my computer!
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Download Firefox 2 adn your problems will be gone - HOPEFULLY!!!
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/products/download.html?product=firefox-2.0&os=win&lang=en-US
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I saw Concordia using one of them at the Humbug Scrub fire.
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Download Firefox 2 adn your problems will be gone - HOPEFULLY!!!
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/products/download.html?product=firefox-2.0&os=win&lang=en-US
I'm using firefox 2 and the pic in your post didn't show up for me. I also can't see a large pic in the gallery I posted. Here they are anyway:
http://www.sacfs.org/publications/HoseWinder-BasketRange14.jpg (http://www.sacfs.org/publications/HoseWinder-BasketRange14.jpg)
http://www.sacfs.org/publications/HoseWinder-Cherry24.jpg (http://www.sacfs.org/publications/HoseWinder-Cherry24.jpg)
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Strange that! Working fine for me. Could be the gallery software not playing nice. :roll: :roll:
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Crews really need to get of the back of the appliance and get to work on the ground and if you have to walk into scrub 30 or 60 meters then so be..May be time some captains or group officers asked the crews to do it........
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http://www.sacfs.org/publications/HoseWinder-Cherry24.jpg
weve always had hose winders like these on every appliance in the group since as long as i can remember,,, at least 5 or 6 years.
i thought they were common as....
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Dont try winding a hose in on the new 34's with a load on it as it stops dead...at least the Darley reels would pull you up as well :roll:
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Dont try winding a hose in on the new 34's with a load on it as it stops dead...at least the Darley reels would pull you up as well :roll:
Is the electric side reels your talking about? What are these like?
Do those on here make sure the side reels are rolled up under pressure? If not make sure you do as the hose will squash down and perish quicker.
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Yes slightest load and they stop dead in their tracks...cheap crap :mrgreen: