SA Firefighter
Technical Discussion => Hypotheticals => Topic started by: Big Yellow Gongbeater on November 04, 2006, 02:03:57 PM
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Hey here's a hypothetical for you all.
A discussion about practical and functional fire appliances that meet the requirments of the SA Country Fire Service, without some gongbeater ranting, raving and generally crapping on about Scania's, Type 3 pumpers, Sky Jets, Bronto's, La Frances etc.
I'm betting it can't be done. Someone just won't be able to help themselves :lol:
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As a start, needs to be a twin cab chassis, and if we are talking rural appliances, it needs to be 4 wd.
And I don't care what make :evil:
Pip
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I know your just trying to stir the pot but hey what the hell.
I believe the CFS need to reevaluate how they are going to build there appliances as it would seem the izuzu/hino chassis are at there limits.
Whether that means splitting the duties up onto more than one appliance (costly) or building a more specialised truck/appliance along the lines of a fireking (not a fireking exactly but a specialised appliance)
The current rescue appliances like Naracoortes seem to be adequate but it seems the rural side of things needs to looked at. Urban appliances like the type 2 or maybe something a bit more powerful like the CFA mark 5 pumpers seems to be all we need.
To generalise i think its time the CFS needs to split the roles up onto seperate appliances so we can do our jobs safely and efficiently.
Is this banging the gong?
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As a start, needs to be a twin cab chassis, and if we are talking rural appliances, it needs to be 4 wd.
And I don't care what make :evil:
Pip
Maybe instead of 1 large 34 we should have 3 14's?
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No 3 14s per brigade woulld result in various brigades responding 3 trucks with 2 people per appliance.
I suggest either giving each brigade an urban pumper type appliance and a appliance about the size of the current 24s for rural jobs.
or just make give 24p/34p bigger pumps that work better at high pressure so they actauly have a good pumping capacity.
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for rural jobs you need a 34 just for the extra 1000l of water. i wouldnt even mind having 3.54 just for extra h2O.
I saw in WA they have urban/rural appliances, that thing looks alright. Dunno how it compares to a 34P though.
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No 3 14s per brigade woulld result in various brigades responding 3 trucks with 2 people per appliance.
I suggest either giving each brigade an urban pumper type appliance and a appliance about the size of the current 24s for rural jobs.
or just make give 24p/34p bigger pumps that work better at high pressure so they actauly have a good pumping capacity.
MMMM getting close to gongbeating there, ask yourself this question if it's all about high pressure and pumping capacity.
An Akron 1720/1725 series branch (the most common in SACFS service) has a maximum flow rate of ?(how many L per minute) at its maximum (optimal) pressure of 700kpa?
The answer will let you see that crapping on about increased pressures and pump capacities is a dead end argument as any CFS pumper can handle the required flow rate and pressure for 2 lines 2 lengths. :lol:
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Oops comp meltdown
Well peeps going well keep it going, and remember don't be a Gongbeater :-)
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for rural jobs you need a 34 just for the extra 1000l of water. i wouldnt even mind having 3.54 just for extra h2O.
Whether you prefer a 24 or a 34 depends on what area you are in...in my area, the 34's can't physically fit in places that the 24's go (and sometimes the 24's don't physically fit where 14's will)
So any appliance(s) allocations need to have some regard to local needs..... one size doesn't fit all!!! :-)
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Hang on, arent 24's and 34's the same size but one with a smaller tank? The older style ones are built on the same chassis arent they?
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the old 34's used to be yes, but the new ones are a fair bit bigger than the 24s, eg:
http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=SACFS&Station_Code=IRBK (http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=SACFS&Station_Code=IRBK)
I don't think my brigade has a need for a pumper, we have no mains water in our area and no boosting to do. The 24 is the right size most of the time and the 14 is good for the tight spots as Pip mentioned. Backup is not far away for more water.
I think the CFS need to recognise that you can't have say 2 of 3 types of trucks that will cover everything. Plus since the CFS doesn't buy 500 trucks in one hit they buy then in dribs and drabs you can't "standardise" as when you want to buy more they won't be available anymore.
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arent CFS gonna standardise the fleet with a 14 and a 34 only, no 24's.
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Why not get a grant so as we can place one bulk order...
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Beater, what about if you need to boost? 34P couldn't do 4in and 4 out. Or in some areas you may need to use a ground monitor and multiple 64mm hoses which a 34P won't handle.
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and it isn't uncommon to run a 64 or two up a driveway then split them. (I know it is not ideal)
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It's uncommon in my area.....don't recall the last time we had to do that.... :|
I think we've wandered off topic......
Perhaps we can look at a 24 / 34 generally rural appliance......what set up should we have on one of those appliances?
Pip
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well that is currently what we have a truck that is good size resonable range of hoses and equipment but it is largely based arount fighting rural fires. Personaly the trap is with trucks like 24p/34p that are marketed implied to be caperble for heaby urban work get given or put on the list for brigades like Morphet vale and Burnside.
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Why not split the appliance needs into three parts?
Rural:
14/24/34
Depending on the size requirements of the area. You may as well drop the designation of 'P' and just build all the damn appliances with a bigger pump.
Urban:
Light Pumper (eg: Current 12's)
Medium Pumper (Current SACFS NSWFB Type 2 Pumpers)
Heavy Pumper (Akin to the MFB or SAMFS Scanias)
Specialist:
Specifically designed Rescue appliances, with large stowage, PTO driven Pumps/Generators
Specifically designed Hazmat appliances, EG: State Hazmat, maybe another one out in the sticks.
Then for each brigade, you draw fom a mix of these. Brigades that have Rural/Urban risk? Then maybe 24 and a medium pumper. Brigades like Barker? Maybe a Heavy+Light Pumper and a 34? A busy RCR brigade? Then a specialist stand alone rescue.
Of course if for example a birgade carries Minimum RCR gear, then throw it on another truck. etc etc
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that is good :-)
But i have a feeling that CFS would just give everyone Rural stuff. :roll:
I Dont think the problem revolves arouund our caperbilities but around somone who tries to cut costs by putting multipule roles on appliances and sacrificing both functions.
I suggest making
a new version of current 12s
for urban work and are small so the fit up hills drivways and using current 34s for rural.
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I would like to see Rescue appliances that can also be used for firefighting not just rescue ( have a pump with 2000 litres).
The main reason in some areas in is hard to get 1 appliance in the day to calls, so if you only have 4 ff you can just take one appliance ( and have firefighting if needed until back up arrives)
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I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to crews, cfs are trying to build an appliance that can do everything because of crew shortages which i think the 34p's are very good for. The problem lies in just a few brigades that have alot of crew and alot of risks but are not getting the equipment to do this job. Some bigger brigades should have an extra 24 so that they can send 1 to a strike team but still have sufficient cover for their area or neighbouring areas who may have also sent a crew away.
I think everyone will be very impressed with the new 34's as they have twice the locker space and i am very jealous of anyone that is getting one.
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Alternatively, perhaps the CFS could have standard 'modules' for all appliances that brigades can choose from. That is, a set of standard pumps (of different pumping capacity), standard tank sizes, standard locker set ups etc. Then when brigades need a new truck, they can re-evaluate their area and "build" a truck with the specs they need... (Ie, we have this booster, so we need this sized pump, heaps of mains water, so only 2000L tank, a Hazmat brigade, so a Hazmat locker etc).
I'm not sure if that is possible, but it would fix the problems of brigades being left with the "best fit" appliance that doesn't really cover what they need, while at the same time having standards across the fleet...
:?
Tillerman, when you say the new 34s, do you mean the yet-to-be-released Hinos?
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Great Idea CFS_Firey the local vollies know the area best
but
Wouldn't that make it an absolute nightmare if you ended up on a unfamilar truck on a strike team.
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True local members know what they need time they where aloud to have a say on what there area needed,also I dont see the need for a rescue units to have a water/pump if that was to happen CFS would say now you have you a extra pump in your station.... I have seen it before rescue pumper is at a going job crew are paged for rescue have to remove all rescue crew and go in command car.....remember we dont have back up here around the block....
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So what happens if you take your rescue appliance (no pump) to a job and you only have 4 or 5 ff go to the call with 1 driver and you get to the job any you need fire protection or worse the car is on fire :?
I think it is better to have a multipurpose fire appliance.
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Well if your prone to having trouble crewing two trucks during the day preorganise that with SOCC or the alerts operators so that there is two brigades paged.
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I meant the 34's currently being built, Moores should have the first one finished very soon.
I am going up there this week so will see how it's going, i would take photo's but that has been banned due to the whole media stir up with the 34's.
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Beater, what about if you need to boost? 34P couldn't do 4in and 4 out. Or in some areas you may need to use a ground monitor and multiple 64mm hoses which a 34P won't handle.
4 in 4 out is the ideal. But nearly all boosting systems only require 2 in 2 out minimum, and current pumps on 24/34P's meet the minimum. And if you're worried about Highrise buildings suddenly popping up everywhere in SACFS areas, go have a look at the booster setup's in Qld, many 30 storey plus are 2in 2 out.
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So what happens if you take your rescue appliance (no pump) to a job and you only have 4 or 5 ff go to the call with 1 driver and you get to the job any you need fire protection or worse the car is on fire huh
I think it is better to have a multipurpose fire appliance.
You use fire extinguishers from the rescue truck until the fire cover truck (which will be coming from another brigade) arrives.
Regardless of whether you have a pumper-rescue or dedicated rescue, you still have to respond another fire-cover truck...
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dedicated rescues are out dated me thinks...
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Back to appliances
4WD - Twin cab - with seven seats
Automatic, air-conditioned
PTO
Aux Pump
2x90m hose reels
2in 2 out
Roller shutters for doors
Light pole
Lockers lights that work when you open the doors
Monitor
Small crew deck
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Why PTO not seperate? Can yo pump and go efectively with PTO?
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4WD - Twin cab - with seven seats
Automatic, air-conditioned
PTO
Aux Pump
2x90m hose reels
2in 2 out
Roller shutters for doors
Light pole
Lockers lights that work when you open the doors
Monitor
Small crew deck
That sounds pretty good, make it at least a 750GPM pump two B.A. Seats and I think you've got a reasonable truck.
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But can you build a decent urban appliance with heavy rescue capabilities on anything but a scania or volvo etc.
or a twin rear axle truck?
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dedicated rescues are out dated me thinks...
We can discuss rescue appliances in their own topic here http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=62&action=post;board=3.0 (http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=62&action=post;board=3.0)
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Why PTO not seperate? Can yo pump and go efectively with PTO?
if you know what you are doing
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Why PTO not seperate? Can yo pump and go efectively with PTO?
Bittenyakka, notice the "Aux Pump". Hence the Pump and Roll capabilities.
Fire03Rescue, twin cab with 7 seats? Christ, 6 people on an appliance is too many currently, what on earth do you need more people for?
One day the service will wak up and realise that you cant built a single applaince that will do Rural/Urban AND place Hazmat, Rescue, Structure, Rural stowage on it.
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You would never fit 7 anyway with the BA seats.
Some will probably disagree, but 7 is too many on one appliance in my opinion.
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The reason for seven, yes some people Will disagree and say wait for the other appliances
A few examples
House fire
4 in BA, 1 IOC, 1 Pump operator, 1 person getting water in = 7
Grass Fire 1 Line
1 IOC, 1 Pump operator, 5 on one Line ( 90m is a lot of hose to get working with in some areas)
If you went to a job like Mt Osmond 1 line with a crew of seven was still hard work on a day like that, the more the better, it must be safer less work than six
Grass Fire 2 Lines
1 IOC, 1 Pump operator, 3 on one line and 2 on the other.
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Bittenyakka, notice the "Aux Pump". Hence the Pump and Roll capabilities.
it is also possible to pump n roll using the PTO
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There are many different types of PTO's, many can be driven around whilst in PTO, many can't and like you said some you can if you know what you are doing.
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The reason for seven, yes some people Will disagree and say wait for the other appliances
A few examples
House fire
4 in BA, 1 IOC, 1 Pump operator, 1 person getting water in = 7
Grass Fire 1 Line
1 IOC, 1 Pump operator, 5 on one Line ( 90m is a lot of hose to get working with in some areas)
If you went to a job like Mt Osmond 1 line with a crew of seven was still hard work on a day like that, the more the better, it must be safer less work than six
Grass Fire 2 Lines
1 IOC, 1 Pump operator, 3 on one line and 2 on the other.
House Fire:
2xBA(takes 38mm hose/branch to entry) 1xPump Operator(stretches 64mm to 38mm for entry, sinks Hydrant) 1xOIC/ECO.
Works with 4. If you have a spare person or two, they should be streching the lne to the front door, and/or sinking the hydrant. THEN those people spare can don BA. You won't have 4xBA going in without another appliance being there.
I went to Mt. Osmond, spent the day up and down goat country with 90m hose reels, plus canvas on the end, crew of 4. No issues what so ever. Maybe you need to teach your No. 2 on the hose how to haul hose correctly?
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2090 - a crew of 7 is better than a crew of 4.
there is absoloutely no possible argument there.
the job can be done with a crew of 4, sure.... but if you have the seven, then at least you have a safety BA crew on scene straight away so that crews can be commited inside the building safely.
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I think Medevac hit in on the head
yes you can it with 4, but more the better
I don't think that it has got anything to do with teaching the number 2.
We must have gone up and down the hill 5 times not once.
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2090 - a crew of 7 is better than a crew of 4.
there is absoloutely no possible argument there.
the job can be done with a crew of 4, sure.... but if you have the seven, then at least you have a safety BA crew on scene straight away so that crews can be commited inside the building safely.
You can have safety BA on scene with 6. Whats your point? 6 People on an appliance, is the max. Not to mention, if you bump it up to 7, you break the 1:5 command ratio. You keep thorwing more people on an applaince, its gets way too crowded.
Fire03Rescue: Up and down hills... ok... If you've got 5 people on one line, then youre certainly wasting 2 people, even three. The No. 2 should be making sure the hose isn't getting snagged.
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You can have safety BA on scene with 6. Whats your point? 6 People on an appliance, is the max. Not to mention, if you bump it up to 7, you break the 1:5 command ratio. You keep thorwing more people on an applaince, its gets way too crowded.
Split your crew into "teams" who report back to the OIC. Bingo! 1:5 ratio back again...
Fire03Rescue: Up and down hills... ok... If you've got 5 people on one line, then youre certainly wasting 2 people, even three. The No. 2 should be making sure the hose isn't getting snagged.
No matter what you say, you can't argue that less workers is better. Many hands make light work. :)
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All appliances from the last 34's onwards can only carry 6 crew anyway due to the middle seat being taken out which i think is good, 6 is the best number of crew but i would prefer 5.
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You can have safety BA on scene with 6. Whats your point? 6 People on an appliance, is the max. Not to mention, if you bump it up to 7, you break the 1:5 command ratio. You keep thorwing more people on an applaince, its gets way too crowded.
Split your crew into "teams" who report back to the OIC. Bingo! 1:5 ratio back again...
Fire03Rescue: Up and down hills... ok... If you've got 5 people on one line, then youre certainly wasting 2 people, even three. The No. 2 should be making sure the hose isn't getting snagged.
No matter what you say, you can't argue that less workers is better. Many hands make light work. :)
Split them into teams all you like, you still have a 1:6 ratio. Im not saying you don't need more people, thats what other appliances are for. I'm just trying to suggest that on the ONE appliance, we should be trying to work smarter, not just throwing more people on board. Not to mention that if you've got two appliances, you can turn out (with one more person, or with GO permision, not) both appliances. That the way we do it sometimes, and for those brigades with a tanker, they can roll both their rural appliance AND their tanker.
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please keep in mind that i understand exactly what you are saying 2090 and quite regularly think there is no need for all these ppl standing around...
but if i can fit 7 ppl on the truck, and there are 7 ppl at the station... then i will take 7.
i can not understand why you would say a smaller crew is better, although i do realise you are used to working with 4 if you are really from the MFS as you have implied numerous times.
the more ppl that are available to assist your crews performing numerous tasks, the slower they will fatigue. and the more flexibility you have to perform multiplem tasks quickly and effectively
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The extra crew are always handy but do sometimes end up standing around.
one problem in CFS is that some crewmembers cant reach high equipment or lift stuck plate cover caps so being able to send 2 people is sometimes needed.
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MMMMM good to see healthy debate,
Almost a couple of gongbeating post's already, read the top, no talk of Scania's, Sky Jets etc.....that constitutes gongbeating.
For the record, the one part of the Aust Road Rules that still applies is everyone must have a seatbelt, there are also COSO's that deal with wearing them (eventhough we are exempt when going to a call P1) So therefore how many appliances have a 7 person capability? Count the available seatbelts peeps. Don't think for one minute that SAPOL will not investigate or attempt to prosecute you (being the driver, NOT THE OIC) for any breach's of the Road Rules there are several CFS drivers who have been involved in MVA's who have either been investigated and or threatened with prosecution for this to not be serious!
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Our 24P has 3 seatbelts in the front and 4 in the back seat. Mind you where all the siren stuff is you cant really seat someone in the dicky seat.
Maybe your population/industrila coverage in your Primary and immediate secondary area should determine what appliance you get and the stowage. and same for rural. Instead of some brigades getting equipment or appliance's they don't need because they "know" someone???
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Its time that brigades where more involved in what their area needed and after doing a tour I have to agree that a 24p is just no good for a large urban area like GOOLWA or PORT ELLIOT time for change and I know there is a review taking place of all SFEC for all brigades...
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Simple, you ALWAYS ensure you have a FIRE & RESCUE appliance mobile, whether it be from one brigade or two...
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attempt to prosecute you (being the driver, NOT THE OIC) for any breach's of the Road Rules there are several CFS drivers who have been involved in MVA's who have either been investigated and or threatened with prosecution for this to not be serious!
How can the driver be prosecuted when the offence is committed by the person not wearing the seatbelt, if they are over 16 years of age ?........... :? :?
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Easy... its the responsability of the driver to ensure everyone is seated correctly.
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little hard if your pack up brigade is 20 or 30 mins away....
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little hard if your pack up brigade is 20 or 30 mins away....
Get em on the Rd, rather be 30 minutes away than 50 by the time you get there and them call them because you need assistance.
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MMMMM good to see healthy debate,
Almost a couple of gongbeating post's already, read the top, no talk of Scania's, Sky Jets etc.....that constitutes gongbeating.
For the record, the one part of the Aust Road Rules that still applies is everyone must have a seatbelt, there are also COSO's that deal with wearing them (eventhough we are exempt when going to a call P1) So therefore how many appliances have a 7 person capability? Count the available seatbelts peeps. Don't think for one minute that SAPOL will not investigate or attempt to prosecute you (being the driver, NOT THE OIC) for any breach's of the Road Rules there are several CFS drivers who have been involved in MVA's who have either been investigated and or threatened with prosecution for this to not be serious!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Instead of some brigades getting equipment or appliance's they don't need because they "know" someone???
That's the biggest cop out and bunch of bollocks I've ever heard! All appliances are allocated according to local risks. It comes down to some brigades thinking they've got higher risks than they actually have, and other brigade's not realizing the risks they truly have. People need to understand the "good ole'" days of brigades designing and purchasing their appliances and equipment are over. The SACFS has moved on from 99% of the state having Chevy Blitz's while the other 1%(with sufficient finances) have Top of the range appliances that are actually not matched with their local risks.
And further to this my opinion (and after all it is only my opinion) says that such a statement is an affront to the work of Arthur,Sandy and Phil. What most of the ignorant people don't know, is that Arthur and Phil (Sandy i'm not sure of) are VOLLIES and were VOLLIES well long before they gained employment with the organisation. And no they weren't vollies in a 5 call out a year brigade, they've got extensive experience in an urban fringe brigade that also has huge rural risks. :evil:
So now i'm off my soapbox, back to the thread, oh and Camo you feeling busted? Yep very close to Gongbeating
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Instead of some brigades getting equipment or appliance's they don't need because they "know" someone???
That's the biggest cop out and bunch of bollocks I've ever heard! All appliances are allocated according to local risks. It comes down to some brigades thinking they've got higher risks than they actually have, and other brigade's not realizing the risks they truly have. People need to understand the "good ole'" days of brigades designing and purchasing their appliances and equipment are over. The SACFS has moved on from 99% of the state having Chevy Blitz's while the other 1%(with sufficient finances) have Top of the range appliances that are actually not matched with their local risks.
And further to this my opinion (and after all it is only my opinion) says that such a statement is an affront to the work of Arthur,Sandy and Phil. What most of the ignorant people don't know, is that Arthur and Phil (Sandy i'm not sure of) are VOLLIES and were VOLLIES well long before they gained employment with the organisation. And no they weren't vollies in a 5 call out a year brigade, they've got extensive experience in an urban fringe brigade that also has huge rural risks. :evil:
So now i'm off my soapbox, back to the thread, oh and Camo you feeling busted? Yep very close to Gongbeating
Bang that Gong Baby!
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And no they weren't vollies in a 5 call out a year brigade, they've got extensive experience in an urban fringe brigade that also has huge rural risks. :evil:
Pity they didn't learn anything from that 'extensive experience' otherwise we'd have decent urban capabilities. :wink:
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And further to this my opinion (and after all it is only my opinion) says that such a statement is an affront to the work of Arthur,Sandy and Phil. What most of the ignorant people don't know, is that Arthur and Phil (Sandy i'm not sure of) are VOLLIES and were VOLLIES well long before they gained employment with the organisation. And no they weren't vollies in a 5 call out a year brigade, they've got extensive experience in an urban fringe brigade that also has huge rural risks.
That's fine Gongbeater, but the CFS Tech Services guys don't allocate the appliances, Region do. Yeah the trucks we are getting now are good, some are excellent, but they only build what the Regions predict they will need.
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some thing like this would be good for a perpose built rescue
Heavy Rescue - 3300
Cab Chassis: Isuzu FTR 800 Crew Cab 4 x 2
Engine: Isuzu 6 cylinder direct injection diesel - 200kW
Transmission: Allison world Series 2000 automatic transmission
GOM/GVM: 10000 KG / 14150 KG
Body: Steel frame and clad with zinc anneal sheet. Electric operated lift up rear door. Aluiminium roller shutter doors
Miscellaneous: Steel frame and clad with zinc anneal sheet. Electric operated lift up rear door. Aluiminium roller shutter doors
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The new rescue for geelong CFA does not look bad at all...
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And no they weren't vollies in a 5 call out a year brigade, they've got extensive experience in an urban fringe brigade that also has huge rural risks. :evil:
Pity they didn't learn anything from that 'extensive experience' otherwise we'd have decent urban capabilities. :wink:
Ahh your cynacism is noted, but I do believe that the vast majority of urban fringe brigades are more than happy with the appliances allocated to them. Do I detect that you wish to pursure a discussion along the lines of changing BRT's to BWT's? Won't happen coz the rules were laid out and simple, and heavens forbid you may be labelled as a gongbeater :lol:
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And no they weren't vollies in a 5 call out a year brigade, they've got extensive experience in an urban fringe brigade that also has huge rural risks. :evil:
Pity they didn't learn anything from that 'extensive experience' otherwise we'd have decent urban capabilities. :wink:
Ahh your cynacism is noted, but I do believe that the vast majority of urban fringe brigades are more than happy with the appliances allocated to them. Do I detect that you wish to pursure a discussion along the lines of changing BRT's to BWT's? Won't happen coz the rules were laid out and simple, and heavens forbid you may be labelled as a gongbeater :lol:
You what? All I want is decent appliances designed for SA conditions, not suburban NSW areas. We have different needs that have not been filled. Don't get me started on the stowage on the appliances...
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CFS were supposed to standardise appliances when the first Hino's came out back in the early nineties,and all stowgae was to be the same,but it didnt take long for the standard to go out the window did it.Stowage is different on almost every appliance ive come across.
Ideally appliances should be twin cab chassis,TURBO,3000 litres,suitable locker space,and not exceed the weight when you put your stowage on it :lol:
Type 2 will do though :-D
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Ahh your cynacism is noted, but I do believe that the vast majority of urban fringe brigades are more than happy with the appliances allocated to them.
[/quote]
^^ You think :?
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I think you will find only a few are happy in the Urban fringe areas, some brigades are not happy, but in the end it is better than something old I guess.
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I can assure you that most of the urban fringe brigades are not happy with their supposed "urban" appliances. How could brigades like Belair and Happy Valley be happy with their downgrades.
For info Sandy is a member of Willunga and was previously captain.
As for Arthur he told us we couldn't have a stokes litter because we just used it to carry equipment in because we were slack and in all his years in Tea Tree Gully he never used a stokes, so theres his extensive experiance shining through.
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Just because one brigade does not use a stokes litter does not mean another brigade can't have one,we have one and its been used alot so just because one person view that his brigade does not use it does not mean the rest of us are doing the same thing..
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Life revolves around who you know not what you know , most CFS people should know that by now. Have a look at the CFS promotions website and look at what appliances some brigades have and look at their risks. Some are definitely better off than others, far better off. But thats life and you dont always get what you want. So its no use crying too much about it.
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So what happens if you take your rescue appliance (no pump) to a job and you only have 4 or 5 ff go to the call with 1 driver and you get to the job any you need fire protection or worse the car is on fire :?
I think it is better to have a multipurpose fire appliance.
Why do you think MFS built pump/rescue appliances....multipurpose :-D