SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: safireservice on August 15, 2007, 04:23:07 PM
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MFS: INC # 29 - 15/08/07 13:09,RESPOND Smoke in Area,GULF PDE,MASLIN BEACH, MAP 215 H 3 ,,BLACK SMOKE IN AREA OF CARAVAN PARK.,8334 16219 431*CFSRES:
scheiße thats a long way from Christies station! Unless they were in Seafords area at the time? Oh well, when only the best will do!!!
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Considering the job ended up in aldinga caravan park, bloo dy long way for them to go... might stem back to the MFS&CFS to everything in seafords area? as the initial dispatch was seafords primary?
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Maslins is actually a shared area between Seaford, Mclaren Vale & Aldinga, it is all three brigades primary area.
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MFS: INC # 29 - 15/08/07 13:09,RESPOND Smoke in Area,GULF PDE,MASLIN BEACH, MAP 215 H 3 ,,BLACK SMOKE IN AREA OF CARAVAN PARK.,8334 16219 431*CFSRES:
filtered thats a long way from Christies station! Unless they were in Seafords area at the time? Oh well, when only the best will do!!!
That road is in Zone 83E, at the moment MFS are still dual responding to all calls in any of 83's zones. I believe there is some changes in the wind to remove the dual response situation now that Seaford are comfortably getting trucks out the door.
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Maslins is actually a shared area between Seaford, Mclaren Vale & Aldinga, it is all three brigades primary area.
Thats right CFS primary area......oh I hear the song on an MFS radio we go everywhere man,we go everywhere man.
Of course CFS will cover them when they run their area dry.....as usual :?
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MFS: INC # 29 - 15/08/07 13:09,RESPOND Smoke in Area,GULF PDE,MASLIN BEACH, MAP 215 H 3 ,,BLACK SMOKE IN AREA OF CARAVAN PARK.,8334 16219 431*CFSRES:
filtered thats a long way from Christies station! Unless they were in Seafords area at the time? Oh well, when only the best will do!!!
That road is in Zone 83E, at the moment MFS are still dual responding to all calls in any of 83's zones. I believe there is some changes in the wind to remove the dual response situation now that Seaford are comfortably getting trucks out the door.
For some reason, since adelaide fire and SHQ merged, 431/439 have been responded to almost every call in our area, although, today that has appeadred to have changed?? not too sure how long for though.
for example, yesterday (25/8) four fire appliances were responded to a rubbish fire, talk about a waste of rescources!! as a resident i would be more than happy to see CD431/439 and one or two seaford trucks rock up, but to pull a truck from morphett vale is totally ridiculous!!
From what i understand, our brigade has requested that MV are removed from our response, but it is "too hard"
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for example, yesterday (25/8) four fire appliances were responded to a rubbish fire, talk about a waste of rescources!! as a resident i would be more than happy to see CD431/439 and one or two seaford trucks rock up, but to pull a truck from morphett vale is totally ridiculous!!
Agreed, four appliances is ridiculous. As I understand it at the moment MFS are still responding to all calls in the Seaford CFS primary response zones, also the dual CFS response with a neighbouring brigade is still happening - although I believe a request has been forwarded to have it removed.
So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
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...So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
Two trucks from Seaford, one from Morphett Vale & one from MFS.
They drove past me while I was parked on Commercial Road.
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...So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
Two trucks from Seaford, one from Morphett Vale & one from MFS.
They drove past me while I was parked on Commercial Road.
Theres your problem... Seafood don't need to be responding two trucks to a rubbish fire when they know that there is another 2 appliances coming.
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...So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
Two trucks from Seaford, one from Morphett Vale & one from MFS.
They drove past me while I was parked on Commercial Road.
Theres your problem... Seafood don't need to be responding two trucks to a rubbish fire when they know that there is another 2 appliances coming.
Theres the other problem - does the red truck need to be going?
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Considering that MV and MFS cover Seafoods behind all the time for their calls, then yes. The call only got a few appliances because Seafood managed to get out the door...
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...So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
Two trucks from Seaford, one from Morphett Vale & one from MFS.
They drove past me while I was parked on Commercial Road.
Theres your problem... Seafood don't need to be responding two trucks to a rubbish fire when they know that there is another 2 appliances coming.
Theres the other problem - does the red truck need to be going?
Yes. They are on Dual response due to issues that were identified a few months back. (Whether those issues have been rectified / solved I am unsure, yet still understand C'Downs MFS are on dual response to Seafords area).
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OK id like to put my two sent worth in here at this point in time, because it seems that most of you are being given the wrong info in regards to Seafords postion. Yes its true that in the past we did struggle with getting a crew to man the trucks, for our call outs but due to a very successful recruitment intake that issue is a thing of the past, we can now get at least 1 unit on the road 24hours a day, and its getting to the case now, were yes we can respond two units to our own callsin our own area as well....the issue of MFS and MV responding with SEAFORD is still an ongoing thing because, the two chiefs of both MFS and CFS have asked us to sit down with both of them and prove that we can get at least 1 truck on the road 24hours a day, a thing that i as the Captain of Seaford would love to do at any time but the stall tactics that are being put in place by the chiefs is making it very hard to do so... So as soon as we get a chance to plead our case to the brass we will be in like Flinn to do so ....so until then unfortunately MV and MFS will be backing us up...If you all think this is a waste of resources sending all these vehicles to rubbish fire and what ever else we might go to, then if you know either of the 2 chiefs please let them know that we here at Seaford are pissed off too and are ready to have our meeting to resolve this issue.
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If the two chiefs have already been asked by Seaford to have a meeting to resolve the matter someone is not coming to the party,and needs to be followed up by GO and Region.
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UFU probably wont allow it. :-D
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Good work Mark, I can tell you that we would be happy to be removed from the dual response for single appliance calls in your zones. I can't remember the last time we actually saw a fire down in your area - you guys are just too efficient now.
It seems that changing the database is becoming harder to do now, bit of a pity really as I think Steve M is keen to facilitate our requests, it seems that someone further up the chain is stalling it.
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...So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
Two trucks from Seaford, one from Morphett Vale & one from MFS.
They drove past me while I was parked on Commercial Road.
Theres your problem... Seafood don't need to be responding two trucks to a rubbish fire when they know that there is another 2 appliances coming.
No, not at all. It's our area so we send our two units and stop any other oncoming units if they are not needed. It's SEAFORD too, idiot. The problem that did exist as Captain has explained is that we were low on members, which was fixed a couple of months ago. But due to that poor membership level, MV and MFS were both put on dual response with us. Which is now no longer needed, we have requested to get it taken off. But as of yet it still stands.
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...So at the most you should be getting 3 appliances to a rubbish fire, where is the fourth coming from??
Two trucks from Seaford, one from Morphett Vale & one from MFS.
They drove past me while I was parked on Commercial Road.
Theres your problem... Seafood don't need to be responding two trucks to a rubbish fire when they know that there is another 2 appliances coming.
No, not at all. It's our area so we send our two units and stop any other oncoming units if they are not needed. It's SEAFORD too, idiot. The problem that did exist as Captain has explained is that we were low on members, which was fixed a couple of months ago. But due to that poor membership level, MV and MFS were both put on dual response with us. Which is now no longer needed, we have requested to get it taken off. But as of yet it still stands.
Two appliances to a rubbish fire? It's a RUBBISH FIRE "idiot".
If you can't hit that with one truck, you've got issues.
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mate, two brigades are really needed to jobs in the CFS, with obvious exceptions (like tree downs).
these days with MFS doing Response paging...."GRASS FIRE" covers Grass, Scrub, etc....we dont have any clue what sort of fire it is till we arrive on scene.
"RUBBISH FIRE" isnt just a small poncy fire struggling to stay alight, it can be multiple heaps of material being burnt off that has gone out of control.
Worst case scenario's should be thought of when dispatching and responding.
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We have been responded to a rubbish fire and needed tow brigads as we have no water close by and the rubbish pile was in a old dump did not know this until we got there.
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Should not matter if its a rubbish fire or a grass fire two appliances / brigade's should respond just in case one has a accident or breaks down on the way to the job.
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Should not matter if its a rubbish fire or a grass fire two appliances / brigade's should respond just in case one has a accident or breaks down on the way to the job.
I think we should also respond a rescue truck and a mechanic to all rubbish fires too - just in case the fire trucks crash or break down on the way... :P
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Better send the CFS CO & MFS CO just incase their are any ema issues as well.
Dont forget SAAS, SAPOL & SES....im sure we could use them somewhere
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i think it would be more reasonable to say that 2 brigades should be sent because CFS is a volunteer resource and hence can't guarantee a full crew then at least there will be 4 crew between the 2 brigades.
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i think it would be more reasonable to say that 2 brigades should be sent because CFS is a volunteer resource and hence can't guarantee a full crew then at least there will be 4 crew between the 2 brigades.
If there are 4 crew BETWEEN 2 brigades, neither are rolling a truck. Well, except Piccadilly that will happily take their 14 to building fires - Go figure...
Not to take this thread too far off track, well moreso than it already is, but how about we all just stop and have a look at the bigger picture.
Turnout for something serious, like a house alight, is, usually, two trucks. In most areas (Mt. Barker being the only exception I can think of) two brigades are responded to ensure a two appliance response. This is similar for most incidents.
I've been present at the Mt. Lofty Summit visitor center when Stirling, Aldgate and Piccadilly have been turned out for an alarm. Its beyond funny to see 5 appliances turn up, because everyone gets a good crew. Wow look, throw in an Aerial and a Rescue and you've got a third alarm for an AFA... Why not call in the Comms bus as well. Maybe notify the RC 'just in case'.
Of course this is going to change according to calls and conditions. Lets say you get turned out to an alarm, shed fire, domestic fire (something pretty normal) you get a crew of 4, 2xCABA on your first appliance out the door, then a couple more show up at the station, but the second responded station is already on the road, you don't need to take that second truck from the first station. There are already two trucks on the road, you don't need a third. Liase with the second station, see how many BA operators they have on board. Wait for the initial SitRep.. filtered hitting the fan? Then get that truck out the door.
It goes without saying that someone will pull up some example of how they went to a job once with all the group because it was a training night and it was lucky they all turned out because the job needed 1000 people. But this is not the case normally. Not every house fire goes to a second alarm. Two pumps, two lines of 38 should do most stock standard house fires.
I'm just asking that people use their heads. Grass fire on a not so bad day? If its in a known bad area, yeah maybe take an extra truck P2. Most things don't need more than two trucks. Thats what we have an Alarm Response procedure for. Does it say "Initial Response: As many as you can get"? No, it doesn't. Go read it.
To go back to the Seafood example, its a rubbish fire. Generally this is going to be some shitty little fire that you can extinguish with a HP line, no worries. You had MFS going, thats one truck guaranteed, and TWO CFS brigades... thats generally another two trucks. You still don't need a hundred trucks from one station.
I don't know about you, but I love it when a CFS appliance rocks up, 4 crew get off, get to work, a second appliance arrives minutes later, 4 crew get off, get to work, everyone is doing something. I hate, and feel rather embarrassed when half the group arrives, all under lights and sirens, then either stand around doing nothing or try having 100 people doing the job of 8. It looks tacky and unprofessional. Many people, especially on these boards go on about how we are just as professional as SAMFS, but when you look like dads army at a job and are worse rubberneckers than the general public, 'Professionalism' is the last thing that springs to mind.
So, in short, Alarm Response Protocol. GO READ IT.
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stop calls???...we've recently had a private alarm at a Cold Store recently..first truck at two BA crew, with second truck a further 4....at this cold store, the risk of the alarm rising to a HAZMAT was medium to high, as there have been many hazmats at this location due to ammonia leaks. Obviously taking a Pid around while searching the location helped, while we had crews on standby with the trucks if this happened to escalate.
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Theres your problem... Seafood don't need to be responding two trucks to a rubbish fire when they know that there is another 2 appliances coming.
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No, not at all. It's our area so we send our two units and stop any other oncoming units if they are not needed. It's SEAFORD too, idiot. The problem that did exist as Captain has explained is that we were low on members, which was fixed a couple of months ago. But due to that poor membership level, MV and MFS were both put on dual response with us. Which is now no longer needed, we have requested to get it taken off. But as of yet it still stands.
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Two appliances to a rubbish fire? It's a RUBBISH FIRE "idiot".
If you can't hit that with one truck, you've got issues.
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Well that just makes me think of the calls that have come across as rubbish fires and end up being large fires or other fires that require more than one appliance.
Plus you always would send both of your appliances as a default response then if the second is not needed you would put a stop through.
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i think it would be more reasonable to say that 2 brigades should be sent because CFS is a volunteer resource and hence can't guarantee a full crew then at least there will be 4 crew between the 2 brigades.
To go back to the Seafood example, its a rubbish fire. Generally this is going to be some shitty little fire that you can extinguish with a HP line, no worries. You had MFS going, thats one truck guaranteed, and TWO CFS brigades... thats generally another two trucks. You still don't need a hundred trucks from one station.
In defence, MFS and MV shouldn't be coming down that far under original zone conditions. So the more we can prove to them that our crewing levels are now fine, By responding both our appliances which would arrive before either MFS or MV, the quicker we are proving that they are wasting a resources coming that far and the zoning should be returned to normal.
So don't stick it to Seaford for sending two appliances out a door. Question the Gods who are responding 3 stations by deafault.
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It is a known fact that many rubbish fires end up being structure fires due to wheelie bins and/or industrial bins pushed up against the building.If its Seaford brigades area they can send two appliances if they want to :evil:
Having responded to many rubbish fires,and one in particular ended up being a 2nd Alarm structure at a school with $50,000 damage, so I would'nt be crying wolf for any call a brigade receives about a rubbish fire.
Two appliances are better than one in most cases.
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The point I'm trying to get across is that if you have multiple brigades going, you don't need to empty your station, just because you can.
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The point I'm trying to get across is that if you have multiple brigades going, you don't need to empty your station, just because you can.
Maybe you dont need to deplete MFS area either?
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Ok, CFS only response. The point of only turning out one truck per brigade still stands champ :)
You don't see SAMFS empty 20 stn. to a 'bin alight' just because they can, do you?
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Look the reason that 3 bigades are on response plans is to get a minimum of 3 trucks there. now in large brigades like Seaford, Mt Barker, Morphet vale etc it might be reasonable to say "oh sorry we don't need you we have already rolled our 1 truck to this call, come back in 8 hours or so".
But in smaller brigades like Piccadilly & Summertown every call is a good way to get experience for your crews and going to calls is a major part of being a CFS member, so when my fellow brigade members arrive at the station for what ever it happens to be there is no way I would ever say "Sorry we don't need you" if only because it would be disastrous for brigade moral.
as for the 14 to a house fire how many brigades don't struggle for day crew? (albet they probably should at least take a 24)
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Good discussion but keep it polite!
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Our response plans outline a specific response for Grass / Rural fires, Structure Fires, MVA's and Hazmat jobs, these vary depending on the alarm level and whether or not it is the fire danger season.
All other jobs are a single appliance response from the primary station, this includes rubbish fires, animal rescues, tree downs, kid with his finger stuck in the drain etc etc.
We don't respond the Heavy Rescue pod from SAMFS to all MVA's just because a simple MVA could require it, we send the appropriate resources for the incident as received by the call taker. One appliance to a rubbish fire is what the response plans say.
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What we have to understand is that in SA there are three acutal zones, all with different ways of responding....quite obvious is the Metro, the Urban-Fringe/Urban Regional Centre's and the Country. What is done by the Urban Fringe cant exactly be the same as the country as there are different conditions there. Speed limits, different roads, terrain etc. While the Met's have traffic lights, high rises, large amounts of domestic housing grouped up everywhere.
Cant expect CFS to work exactly like the MFS. or definately the MFS to work like the CFS.
The urban fringe brigades probably have it the hardest trying to judge what they send to where.
Last nights MVA at Piggot Range road probably only required Morphett Vale 24P and a second appliance on standby for Traffic Control (be aware outside metro area, Police rarely do Traffic Control). Instead 439, MV24P, MV14, HV14, HVPumper went :| This is where Adelaide Fire may need to indicates Single Appliance Required in the pager message somehow. And contacting stations directly to "Stop for futher appliances".
Need some sort of MDT :mrgreen:
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oh and something else may help too.....in the same way there are Primary and Support Fire Reports to send to HQ (i hope people know the meaning of Support response lol)...indicate in pager message that ur brigade is Primary or Support.
Maybe a clearer indication of Incident type like "MVA-Spill", "MVA-Injury", "RCR" also.
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oh and something else may help too.....in the same way there are Primary and Support Fire Reports to send to HQ (i hope people know the meaning of Support response lol)...indicate in pager message that ur brigade is Primary or Support.
Maybe a clearer indication of Incident type like "MVA-Spill", "MVA-Injury", "RCR" also.
Dezza - unfortunately call taking is not as simple and clear cut as all that... it would not be possible to indicate whether a brigade is primary or support (not that some brigades seem to know the differance as you said) as an incident does not always end up exactly where the page/MDT msg says.... also although once again it is not possible to define exactly wehat type of VA u are going to be confronted with when you arrive there is a version of what you are saying in the incident response types...
in theory; RESPOND Vehicle accident; is a VA with or without injuries, but no confirmed/suspected entrapments.. where as RESPOND RCR; is a VA that the call to fire or other agency indicates involves an entrapment...
but as u said, call taking is not as simple and clearly defined as it sounds. a response can only be sent going by the information as supplied by any 'un-educated' member of the public...
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oh and something else may help too.....in the same way there are Primary and Support Fire Reports to send to HQ (i hope people know the meaning of Support response lol)...indicate in pager message that ur brigade is Primary or Support.
Maybe a clearer indication of Incident type like "MVA-Spill", "MVA-Injury", "RCR" also.
The PRIMARY brigade, atleast as far as I know, is always the brigade with its code first in the section of whos going. IE.MFS: INC # 71 - 02/09/07 23:09,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,PIGGOTT RANGE RD,ONKAPARINGA HILLS, MAP 178 E 16 ,,BETWEEN EDUCATION AND BAINS RD,439 8124*CFSRES: according to this pager message, the incident is in MFS Station 43's area.
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Not necessarily. Look at rescue responses. The primary rescue brigade will be the first number on the pager, even when they are responding into another brigade or even groups area. This does not mean that it's a primary call for the rescue brigade involved.
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The PRIMARY brigade, at least as far as I know, is always the brigade with its code first in the section of whos going. IE.MFS: INC # 71 - 02/09/07 23:09,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,PIGGOTT RANGE RD,ONKAPARINGA HILLS, MAP 178 E 16 ,,BETWEEN EDUCATION AND BAINS RD,439 8124*CFSRES: according to this pager message, the incident is in MFS Station 43's area.
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Well and truly outside 43's area.This is CFS area and divided amongst 3 brigades being Clarendon,Happy Valley,Morphett Vale depending on which side it is. :wink:
The boundary between CFS/MFS area is States Road.
Christie Downs are the designated resource for Road Crash Rescue at Onkaparinga Hills.
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Well all i can say is good luck getting the Database changed and when you do please tell me how?
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from Alphaone
The PRIMARY brigade, at least as far as I know, is always the brigade with its code first in the section of whos going. IE.MFS: INC # 71 - 02/09/07 23:09,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,PIGGOTT RANGE RD,ONKAPARINGA HILLS, MAP 178 E 16 ,,BETWEEN EDUCATION AND BAINS RD,439 8124*CFSRES: according to this pager message, the incident is in MFS Station 43's area.
Well and truly outside 43's area.This is CFS area and divided amongst 3 brigades being Clarendon,Happy Valley,Morphett Vale depending on which side it is. :wink:
The boundary between CFS/MFS area is States Road.
Christie Downs are the designated resource for Road Crash Rescue at Onkaparinga Hills.
the station numbers are set up so the bells drop first in theory for the primary brigade if response data is correct...
HOWEVER - if there is a specialist resource responding, eg. rescue, aerial, hazmat, tanker, then that resource with its stn number will be listed first.
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Just to avoid confusion Mack the quote you posted as coming from me is actually alphaone's quote :oops:...wouldnt want to be accused of posts I didnt write :wink:
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mmm yer the qoute function has made it look odd as i t ook it from your post... ill edit it a bit.
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please correct me if i am wrong but isnt the primary brigade the one that is resposible for that area unless it is a RCR where rescue is required.
that is my understanding we run it that way out here even with the SES as rescue if its in our RESCUE area then we take primary with CFS suporrt how ever if it is NON SES task for example assisting with a tree down in CFS area even though our SES area is quite large and covers a lot of CFS area we act as a suport resorse.
i know CFS and SES working together is different but the pricipls are the same and we all have to know who is doing what
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please correct me if i am wrong but isnt the primary brigade the one that is resposible for that area unless it is a RCR where rescue is required.
Dual response area's makes it an over-complicated situation .
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sesroadcrash - in theory your correct, the brigade whos primary area the incident falls in is essentially responsible for it.. there are obvious exceptions if that brigade is unable to respond.
however there are still statewide SOPs within each service for responses.
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MACK just asking you to clarafiy something
are you saying the priamy brigade is the brigade responsible for the area or the brigade that forfill the requirement
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MACK just asking you to clarafiy something
are you saying the priamy brigade is the brigade responsible for the area or the brigade that forfill the requirement
not quite sure what you mean, but in my opinion it means that the primary brigade is responsible for ensuring an appropriate and efficient response to any incident, using multi-agencys and brigades if necessary.
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that is my understanding we run it that way out here even with the SES as rescue if its in our RESCUE area then we take primary with CFS suporrt how ever if it is NON SES task for example assisting with a tree down in CFS area even though our SES area is quite large and covers a lot of CFS area we act as a suport resorse.
If its a rescue job in a CFS brigades area, its their primary call.please correct me if i am wrong but isnt the primary brigade the one that is resposible for that area unless it is a RCR where rescue is required.
Dual response area's makes it an over-complicated situation .
Not really, each brigade should have its *own* area.
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ok how eer we are RCR here and there are CFS around us that are not rescue as well as MFS who are not rescue and we respond in to there area all the time and what i ment by our area covers a lot of CFS area is refering to stormdamage not RESCUE.
as i siad my understanding is that the RCR crew has primary for a va unless on arrival there is no entrapments then they can hand it back to the "local" crews
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In the CFS "Primary" means "In your area" and "Support" means "In another brigades area".
If you are a rescue brigade doing a rescue in a neighboring brigades area, that is a support call, not a primary call.
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Ha ha CFS_Firey yuo beat me to it was just about to say exactly the same thing.
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thank you for your corection to that point with that does it work the same for inter agency or would it be more the CFS is primary and so are the SES or what????
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Ha ha CFS_Firey yuo beat me to it was just about to say exactly the same thing.
Well, you know what they say about great minds... :P
thank you for your corection to that point with that does it work the same for inter agency or would it be more the CFS is primary and so are the SES or what????
It would be primary for both agencies - no different to if you attend an incident with SAAS or SAPOL...
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thank you for your corection to that point with that does it work the same for inter agency or would it be more the CFS is primary and so are the SES or what?
I'm not sure exactly how the SES incident reporting system works but if you go to an MVA in Freeling CFS area, Freeling will fill out a primary CFS incident report, any other CFS brigades in attendance will fill out a support CFS incident report, and SES will fill out their own primary SES incident report (because it is is your primary response SES area).
Don't confuse primary and support CFS areas with anything to do with SES, you have your own primary SES area (I would imagine this is marked on a map in your LHQ) and the CFS have their own primary responses areas - the two need never be compared.
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It is a known fact that many rubbish fires end up being structure fires due to wheelie bins and/or industrial bins pushed up against the building.If its Seaford brigades area they can send two appliances if they want to :evil:
You can't just respond appliances because you want to. There are response plans that need to be followed (especially in the Mawson Group). Sending 2 appliances to a rubbish fire in case it involves a structure is a bit of a cop out. With that theory you better send 8 appliances in case that structure happens to be an A class risk.
Deal with the job you have and not what it could be. The least amount of 15 tonne priority 1 appliances running red lights on the road the better.
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As I keep saying people always send two appliances You never know that rubbish fire may just be the Simpson's tyre fire......
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As I keep saying people always send two appliances You never know that rubbish fire may just be the Simpson's tyre fire......
totally agree, pager messages dont tell you everything...adelaide fire cant see the fire via live video feed :mrgreen:
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As I keep saying people always send two appliances You never know that rubbish fire may just be the Simpson's tyre fire......
But when you have two brigades going... you already have two appliances.
Oh and make sure you respond atleast a 3rd alarm to everything that *could be* something more.
How often does the scheiße hit the fan? Certainly not often enough to warrant a panic every call. Deal with what you have, not what 'might be'
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So why does any station have more than one truck, no point having more than 8 members either, because the 2nd appliances never needs to respond, how about when your 2nd truck gets on the road standing down the furtherest responding appliance, so they can get back and cover their area, thats the only reason we have dual response.
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So why does any station have more than one truck, no point having more than 8 members either
quite simple. its volunteer. hence people can say No, which means you need more than probably twice the capacity of a truck to cover it. 6 seater truck....good to have 12 people available for that. SFEC's are designed for this.
More than one truck? there have been times where there have been multiple incidents in ones own response zone...oh and lotsa poeple really dont want to do Change of Quarters all the time lol...There is also reasons for having particular appliances in particular area's if you unaware of that.
I would not want to see a Type 2 Pumper at a scrub fire. Asset protection for them, but not for Knocking down the fire.
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Really, get outta town, i thought we all had nuffa 34's. :wink:
I am aware of why we have certain trucks, ahhhhhhhhhh screw it, I can't be bothered........
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There seems to be a definate division here, you have a few people that know what response plans are and follow them to the letter, and then those that believe they should respond two appliances to everything.
I can see why some brigades would like to respond two trucks to all calls, and in many cases I would love to as well. At least then more people are getting a run to a job and it might even settle their Lights and siren fix for the week, but it's just not necessary in 95% of jobs to treat it like a full blown 3rd alarm incident and flood the scene with trucks and people, it makes us all look unprofessional and disorganised.
How many 'Domestic Fires' are you responded to that are actually goers, or even require more than one hose line, probably less than 5%.
The SOP's outline the standard response to an incident, if you follow that you can't go wrong, if the job type is not in there then treat it as a single appliance response.
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I think i might have a theory on why there are so many different ideas.
How far is it from Morphet Vale to it's surrounding brigades?
and these large brigades that follow SOP's like religion how long from the pager until you get a truck on the road?
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bittenyaka - it doesnt have anything to do with that i dont think.. from my experience there are two types of brigades...
1/ follows SOPs for standard responses, standard crewing, out the doors in a timely manner and defaults when they need to...
or
2/ does whatever they want, goes everywhere priority one even if its just bob in the QAV 30minutes after page, go whether they have 1 or 12 crew crammed into the truck & are lucky if they go anywhere in 20minutes who cares about defaulting..
end of the day, there are brigades that do the right thing (and thats what it is called when you follow SOP and provide a correct & reasonable response to an incident) and then there are brigades that do what they want... it has been said in many other threads, end of the day the OIC of an incident needs to justify there actions, and that includes stop calling or responding over the top resources.
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How far is it from Morphet Vale to it's surrounding brigades?
also, worth noting..
SOPs actually state the number of appliances!!! not number of brigades, so i think this point is mute. Others have said, if a closer resource can go mobile then another respond app can always take a stop call..
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bittenyaka - it doesnt have anything to do with that i dont think.. from my experience there are two types of brigades...
1/ follows SOPs for standard responses, standard crewing, out the doors in a timely manner and defaults when they need to...
or
2/ does whatever they want, goes everywhere priority one even if its just bob in the QAV 30minutes after page, go whether they have 1 or 12 crew crammed into the truck & are lucky if they go anywhere in 20minutes who cares about defaulting..
end of the day, there are brigades that do the right thing (and thats what it is called when you follow SOP and provide a correct & reasonable response to an incident) and then there are brigades that do what they want... it has been said in many other threads, end of the day the OIC of an incident needs to justify there actions, and that includes stop calling or responding over the top resources.
Nicely put Mack. Simple when you look at it that way.
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Ok that post might have come out completely wrong and didn't work. Sorry
Lets talk about Alarms mainly here. Why is the SOP 2 appliances ONLY? and NOT anything you can get. This time give me good reasons and not poxy "we look like dads army" or " it isn't safe to drive"
I spoke about this with other members and the general consensus was the point of an alarm is that it should detect FIRE hence until you are on scene you assume the building is burning so if enough crew are avalible for 2 trucks TAKE them.
I know if there was any of my brigades numerous alarms that one day was a going job i wouldn't want to wait for more appliances when they could already be on the road.
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point of an alarm is that it should detect FIRE hence until you are on scene you assume the building is burning so if enough crew are avalible for 2 trucks TAKE them.
as a going job i wouldn't want to wait for more appliances when they could already be on the road.
Totally Agree. 1st appliances sitrep to comm's base and oncoming appliances, should cover everything including priority for further appliances and stop calls.
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Lets talk about Alarms mainly here. Why is the SOP 2 appliances ONLY? and NOT anything you can get. This time give me good reasons and not poxy "we look like dads army" or " it isn't safe to drive"
I spoke about this with other members and the general consensus was the point of an alarm is that it should detect FIRE hence until you are on scene you assume the building is burning so if enough crew are avalible for 2 trucks TAKE them.
Ok mate, you want to talk about alarms. 99% of the time AFA's are nothing. There is a reason they are nicknamed 'code calls', because of how often the stop message is merely the AIRS code given for the reason of activation of alarm and nothing more. The number of real fires that are AFA's are so very small.
Two applainces is more than enough to merely investigate an alarm sounding with no 000 calls. If you ring Adelaide Fire and they tell you that there are multiple calls for fire and smoke visible, then ok, take the second truck. But for an initial alarm call with no 000 confirmation, you simply don't need more than two trucks.
Even if you arrive, it turns out to be something and you don't think you can handle it with only your two appliances then get on the radio, upgrade it to a 2nd alarm. In the meantime though you can be doing a whole lot of good with the two crews already on the ground.
Not to mention that the majority of alarms are Smoke Detectors, designed to detect the presence of smoke and also, steam, aerosols, smoke from burnt foodstuffs etc etc... If it was a thermal, of flame detector then yeah, they are designed to detect FIRE and are less likely to active when there is no 'real' fire present.
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What about VESDA alarm systems, interstate taskforce here we come. (SARCASIM PEOPLES) trying to lighten the mood. :-D :-D :-D
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trying to lighten the mood. :-D :-D :-D
thanks mate..forum needs it :-)
how bout a dedicated helicopter for fixed/private alarms :roll:
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How far is it from Morphet Vale to it's surrounding brigades?
10 Minutes to Seaford, 12 Minutes to Happy Valley, 6 Minutes to Christie Downs MFS
and these large brigades that follow SOP's like religion how long from the pager until you get a truck on the road?
06/07 financial year avg response time = 04:12 - why do you ask and what does this have to do with how many trucks are responded ??
Lets talk about Alarms mainly here. Why is the SOP 2 appliances ONLY? and NOT anything you can get. This time give me good reasons and not poxy "we look like dads army" or " it isn't safe to drive"
I spoke about this with other members and the general consensus was the point of an alarm is that it should detect FIRE hence until you are on scene you assume the building is burning so if enough crew are avalible for 2 trucks TAKE them.
Well over here alarms are treated as a structure fire and result in a two appliance response from the primary station. If the support station gets an appliance on the road then the third most distant appliance will respond priority two.
So for example - a fixed alarm activates at the Vales Aged Care facility, Morphett Vale 24P responds first, then Happy Valley Pumper, 15 seconds later Morphett Vale 24 responds - in that case Happy Valley Pumper would downgrade to priority two because Morphett Vale 24 is going to be a lot closer, if it took Morphett Vale 24 two minutes to get going then they would be downgraded to priority two because H/V Pumper would be the closer of the two. This is at the discretion of the OIC and is coordinated on VHF and works well.
Obviously this doesn't take into account the two MFS pumps that will also be responding, that's because we have constantly been told not to include MFS into our response plans. Seems very silly but because they may be tied up at their own incident another job in CFS area will be a lesser priority for them and therefore they may not attend.
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Lets talk about Alarms mainly here. Why is the SOP 2 appliances ONLY? and NOT anything you can get. This time give me good reasons and not poxy "we look like dads army" or " it isn't safe to drive"
I spoke about this with other members and the general consensus was the point of an alarm is that it should detect FIRE hence until you are on scene you assume the building is burning so if enough crew are avalible for 2 trucks TAKE them.
SOP 2.1 - 1st alarm structure fire; 2 appliances
Alarms fall under the same general 'incident type' in the SOPs as 'Structure Fire'
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Lets talk about Alarms mainly here. Why is the SOP 2 appliances ONLY? and NOT anything you can get. This time give me good reasons and not poxy "we look like dads army" or " it isn't safe to drive"
The response for an alarm is the same as the response for a first alarm structure fire... Under SOP 2.1 Initial Rsource Resopnse Schedule, there is no outline for an Alarm response, all Alarms are treated as a structure until it is confirmed they are not...
It is becoming increasingly obvious that you haven't been to many incidents, especially "incidents of note" if you cannot see the valid reasons that have been presented in this thread for minimising the number of resources that are sent to a scene.
It is cowboys like you that give the service a bad name...
Why am I bothering, it appears you cannot listen to reason and arbitarily dismiss people's arguments because you think they are "poxy".
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3/pagingdr/Forum/smileys/eusa_wall.gif) (http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3/pagingdr/Forum/smileys/eusa_wall.gif) (http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3/pagingdr/Forum/smileys/eusa_wall.gif)
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It is becoming increasingly obvious that you haven't been to many incidents, especially "incidents of note" if you cannot see the valid reasons that have been presented in this thread for minimising the number of resources that are sent to a scene.
also the fact that you obviously have little or no understanding of CFS SOPs (have u even read or vaguely looked at them?)makes me wonder why you are prepared to argue them, and end up looking stupid.
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Yes i have looked over SOP's once or twice
I think the difference in our areas and individual brigades means that we shall forever be banging our heads on brick walls so i give up and no body on here is about to change his or her mind.
It is cowboys like you that give the service a bad name...
What is this "bad name"? Like what have the public said to you?
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It comes down to this. There are (both on these forums, and in real life) a group of people who take their Firefighting very seriously, treat their voluntary position with the respect it deserves and attempts to deliver the most professional service possible.
Then there is then a group of people, like (removed by moderator) that see themselves and their own adrenalin fix as more important than service delivery to the community. Response procedures are written for a specific reason and should, for the same reason be followed.
Get your collective heads out of the days of EFS and 100 blokes on a single appliance and try to come with the SACFS and firefighting in general into the new Millennium.
Please, not only for us, but the community as a whole...
This post has been moderated.
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If you acutally knew these people, u would think differently probably. So dont go thinking that all because of comments said on this forum...its a forum, u'll never know the complete story of the particular people.
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I think this topic is Seaford Responses or perhaps we should start a new thread in relation to SOP 4.5 Automatic Fire Alarms and Responses :?
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I think this topic is Seaford Responses or perhaps we should start a new thread in relation to SOP 4.5 Automatic Fire Alarms and Responses :?
Give the man a cigar!! :-D
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There are (both on these forums, and in real life) a group of people who take their Firefighting very seriously,
is there also, in your world, the possibility that some people may take themselves just a little bit too seriously?
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I think this topic is Seaford Responses or perhaps we should start a new thread in relation to SOP 4.5 Automatic Fire Alarms and Responses :?
I agree, its gone way off track and it goes way beyond Seaford responding two trucks to a rubbish fire, Topic should Brigade Responses, because it is totally wrong to have this whole topic based on Seaford when it is clearly obvious that plenty of brigades are doing it.
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There are (both on these forums, and in real life) a group of people who take their Firefighting very seriously,
is there also, in your world, the possibility that some people may take themselves just a little bit too seriously?
On this forum? You cannot be serious. Ever.