SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: 2468 on June 04, 2010, 11:17:54 AM
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Hi,
Quick question, Who does the booster commissioning in the country areas ie hills and country?
I know there are the fire companies that do the 3 or 6 year tests, but who does the commissioning test? Especially as some brigades pumpers wouldn't be able to support the flow/ pressure needed to get the pass at 1800kpa/ and the flow rate.
Surely the mets don't go outside of the metropolition areas as they wouldn't be the responding appliance.
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Im relatively sure the fire mechanics/companies would do all the commisioning. MFS pumps do not attend them.
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we just did a booster test with some people from cfs to test the booster system since the extentions to the local shopping complex, they didnt ask that it be tested to 1800kpa just to the bare minimum, which our 24P only just managed, and that was with minimal water output through the hydrants on site
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I know the MFS does the commission flow as there are only a few companies in adelaide that can do the commission flows privately with pumps or fire trucks, so mets still do that but i didnt think CFS did it in their areas.
Commision test means that the system is boosted to get the flows- pass/fail
then pressure test- pass/fail. (30mins at max pressure)
pressure test to 1700kpa or 1800kpa. How are we suppose to use these systems when the appliances cant manage? ie a 24P as Big Al mentioned?
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Sorry i should have specified my answer was in relation to systems outside of MFS/Metro area. You are correct that MFS pumps do attend commisioning in area.
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All good. Just curious cause i keep seeing the Mets doing commission tests, but wonder how it works in the CFS areas. Can hardly get a cfs pumper out to commission a system. Although i saw a private contractor with a fire truck doing the test so might be that.
Would've thought it would have worked well to have the contractors give a donation to the local brigade to come out to commission the system, get to learn the system and also raise some mular :D
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Yes but there is only about 10 trucks that the CFS would be able to use to do booster tests, our old 24P attempted it when there was one commisioned at Clarendon, it was unable to complete the test as the pump was unable to flow enough water.....Most of ours and our neighbouring brigades areas need 2x24P's to boost properly.
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Well the SACFS is really switched on in regards to this aren't they. I saw one of the companies doing a commissioning test this morning in Lonsdale... nice big truck doing it. Sort the CFS should have.
2x 24p... can the new 34p's boost easily enough? remembering that the majority of the new boosters are 4in 4 out... or 2 supply + 1 suction and 4 in...
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CFS Staff from the Building fire safety unit were out with a local brigade last week testing flow rates etc on new booster set up at one of the local primary schools in the Hills.
That booster set up was one of the first completed in the hills area, under the recent building program, with many more to come over the next few months, as system are completed.
Pip
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CFS Staff from the Building fire safety unit were out with a local brigade last week testing flow rates etc on new booster set up at one of the local primary schools in the Hills.
That booster set up was one of the first completed in the hills area, under the recent building program, with many more to come over the next few months, as system are completed.
Pip
Yeh that was the 4th booster/flow rate test, which I have done in our response area this year... Lost count of how many we have now...
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Lucky most of those systems are just tank suction with a single hydrant outlet.
Might be a reason for brigades to upgrade appliances :-D
How do the cfs 34p and 24urp go with mains pressure 4in/4out? How often do hills brigades pratice with the boosters? I heard of a site being installed in the hills ie near mt barker with a triple pump and tank set up. Should be good for cfs to practise with 8-)
Didn't know the cfs had their building safety unit again. They finally replaced max?
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we have a system here that is a triple failsafe, 50,000lt tank with an electric pump capable of 3000lpm to feed 4 double hydrants and sprinkler system to a 90 bed nursing home, also has a deisel pump if the electric fails, with same capability and then if that fails, a hard suction point with 2 inlets for us to boost with..... Only we dont have the hose to do it with....
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How do the cfs 34p and 24urp go with mains pressure 4in/4out? How often do hills brigades pratice with the boosters? I heard of a site being installed in the hills ie near mt barker with a triple pump and tank set up. Should be good for cfs to practise with 8-)
34p/24ps are obviously very limited in their boosting capability, depends on the system and the mains pressure.... Can only speak for our brigade but, Booster/sprinkler/alarm panel training is included in our regular training. We have so many different systems, just lucky that we have a few MFS members that are able to facilitate the training.. Our brigade is still waiting to do the Check Installed Fire Safety Systems course..... But the CFS doesn’t seem to care about urban risks......
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We have never received any CFS regulated training on any of the urban risks in our patch, there is no alarms training, there is no respond to urban risks training its all been self taught, or what we have picked up from working with SAMFS....but we can respond to wildfire !!
As for the 34P and URP's, they are no different pumping wise to the 24P, still only 2 in 2 out.
People like Bridgewater calling there URP a pumper is misleading, its just a 24P with a PTO pump, pump size is still only 1900 lpm.
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Ahh so its basically, don't the people. If something goes to hell just smile and plead innocence lol.
Whats the Check Installed Fire Safety Systems course? I saw one the fire companies hauling some massive fire pumps (as big or bigger than 20 foot shipping container) up freeway on way into hills. turned off at Mt Barker.
Wait how do the fire crews respond and boost the system as Monalta distribution centre? That things freaking massive. and mets trucks struggle to boost.
You never rely on the installed electric or diesel pumps... They may give out at any time and 50k litres is tiny to supply a good sized sprinkler system especially :( . Lack of suction hose is filtered scary. That has got to be basic equipment to carry.
What happens when there is a major fire like PGS or Rand where you have the mets pulling full time crews from ohallaron hill to kilburn leaving cfs to coq to station 20?
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I guess CFS just accept the risk and aren't to fussed about the fallout when it turns bad.
If there is no training on urban firefighting then I can't see them being to worried about the fire coverage.
Not to mention the have struggled to get everyone up to scratch on Basic Firefighter 1, long road to go to get us to the level of an urban fire service!
Got a long way to go.
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Whats the Check Installed Fire Safety Systems course?
It's the awareness level training in fire safety systems, (fire alarms, FIPs, EWIS, basic sprinkler setups etc). The CFS started running it last year.
http://www.afacshop.com.au/catalogue/c66/p297 (http://www.afacshop.com.au/catalogue/c66/p297)
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Has that course actually been rolled out, or was there just a trial, I don't know of anyone that has done the course.
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I can't answer for sure, but I thought it had been rolled out. I did it last year and at the time I understood the plan to be that they'd run it whenever they could find instructors and time at STC, and in then build up a group of instructors that could go out to brigades and run the course onsite. I don't know where it's at with that though.
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I've done the course. Very informative and gives an in sight not only to FIP's but the actual booster system itself. The course includes an onsite walk thru of a premises with those facilities. CFS got a demo FIP for each Region. RTO's can provide the training.
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Whats the biggest sized booster that the cfs trucks could handle? ie would a 150mm booster be too hard? or is a 200mm system the maximum size??
FIP's aren't something you can just do a course on. 12 main manufacturers each with about 10 designs that are different...
No rto's can do the panel courses atm. and i cant find a rto that does the familiarity with fire systems course.
I rung chubb and asked for their help and got told to call another company cause they dont tell anyone but their own how they work. got the same resonse for the other fire companies.
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I have seen first hand how Building services(CFS) try and do the testing using rural appliances and it does not work,May be CFS should give them a 350 ford with a nice big pump so that they can do their job correctly. As for FIP training what a joke making volunteers do a 8 hour course gee CFS how much information do they really need to know??? The more information you give the more easy it is to stuff up the FIP and the more money a client has to fork out for his service company to come and fix the problem...... Keep the FIP course simple and basic dont go into the real software or the TECHNO stuff as that is where the problems are coming from....
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FIP's are fairly straight forward, I have never had any official training in them and have managed for all these years. Still doesn't make it right that the training hasn't been forthcoming, or even a training package.
I think you will find a lot more private companies with trailer mounted pumps, or old fire trucks, are doing the booster testing in country areas.
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Darren you are correct but CFS building services still have to do their part which involves doing the booster test and getting the local brigade involved. As for FIP testing its now a CFS course and a few brigades have done it said it was a nice course but way too long and too much information.
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Whats the biggest sized booster that the cfs trucks could handle? ie would a 150mm booster be too hard? or is a 200mm system the maximum size??
FIP's aren't something you can just do a course on. 12 main manufacturers each with about 10 designs that are different...
No rto's can do the panel courses atm. and i cant find a rto that does the familiarity with fire systems course.
I rung chubb and asked for their help and got told to call another company cause they dont tell anyone but their own how they work. got the same resonse for the other fire companies.
Keep adding trucks to fill the inlets/outlets! Problem solved!
FIP & EWIS are dead easy - if you have a brain... (Multiple system types, but the basic functions and processes are the same)
Which RTO's are you talking about? Regional Training Officers or Registered Training Organisations? Perhaps for the sake of the clarity of the discussion we could do something CRAZY and call the courses by their correct name? What is the "Panel Course" versus the "Familiarity with fire systems course"? Currently there is the "Check installed fire safety systems" course AND "Utilise installed fire safety systems". At this point in time CFS only deliver the Check course, but Utilise is slated, pending some STC additions.
Doesn't all this discussion beg the question, whats the point of having to have a SPECIAL appliance/trailer come in and do the booster testing in an area, because the local brigades are unable to. Am I the only one that notices this minor issue?
God help the CFS if they need to use a Hydrant Booster or Sprinkler Boosting system at a job...
As for FIP training what a joke making volunteers do a 8 hour course gee CFS how much information do they really need to know??? The more information you give the more easy it is to stuff up the FIP and the more money a client has to fork out for his service company to come and fix the problem...... Keep the FIP course simple and basic dont go into the real software or the TECHNO stuff as that is where the problems are coming from....
I would have thought 8 hours to cover basic awareness of how fire detection and suppression systems work is the BARE MINIMUM. You actually need to have a working understanding of the way the whole thing operates in order to determine the cause of an alarm. Reset conditions for a Smoke detector compared to that of a thermal detector or VESDA are very different things. Not to mention the amount of incorrect AIRS data that idiots are populating the system with. If a smoke detector operates due to burnt toast, that is NOT a system malfunction. Everything is working as intended.
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FIP's aren't something you can just do a course on. 12 main manufacturers each with about 10 designs that are different...
Isn't that like saying fire fighting isn't something you can just do a course on, because every fire is different?
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There is a point where I don't expect all volunteers to know everything. But the FIPs i have used are simple enough and the buttons clearly labelled and often there is a manual there as well. GO out and learn the systems in your area but don;t make your crews learn the systems in town if you are not going to be in town. if you train the ideas and theory well you should be able to fit into bigger operations quite well.
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"Isn't that like saying fire fighting isn't something you can just do a course on, because every fire is different?"
Not really. There are some serious gaphics based fire panels being installed that not even the fire companies completely understand. Poor vols who rocked up to see a 9 inch screen touch pad :S
Yeah you are right going out to recce your area is the right thing to do, noticed one of the brigades has been doing this alot in the paging.
Yeah like i said earlier there are three companies with the trailer pumps and one with an acco.
And like 6739264 said. great to do the testing and commision with these pumps/ trucks but if you dont have a heavy pumper its kind of useless. 24p vs. heavy urban pumper is the exact problem
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TOUR OF MOUNT PLEASANT HOSPITAL HYDRANT BOOSTER TONIGHT AT STATION 19:00. - CFS Springton Info
Any ideas what they getting up to with the booster?
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a 1 in, 2 out pump doing hydrant booster training haha.
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Might be more useful to strap some pool pumps to the back of the truck.
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a 1 in, 2 out pump doing hydrant booster training haha.
THATS WHAT BREACHING PIECES ARE FOR MORON. Duh, Don't you know ANYTHING?
Go back to Level One, do not pass go.
(I once built a 27 in 19.45 out pump, just using Breaching Pieces.)
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(I once built a 27 in 19.45 out pump, just using Breaching Pieces.)
I once built a pump with 1 in and 0 out using breaching and collecting pieces. It wasn't very useful.
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a 1 in, 2 out pump doing hydrant booster training haha.
THATS WHAT BREACHING PIECES ARE FOR MORON. Duh, Don't you know ANYTHING?
Go back to Level One, do not pass go.
(I once built a 27 in 19.45 out pump, just using Breaching Pieces.)
then again....CFS provide 1 breeching piece per 34 :P
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About breaching pieces. If you run 2 64mm into a Y then have 1 64 coming out the other side can someone with more knowledge of hydraulics tell em if you get more water out? Or are you still just trying to put an elephant through a car door?
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Saw one the companies doing the booster flow on Cavan road today. Using a fire truck. massive thing. bigger that the mets trucks i think.
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About breaching pieces. If you run 2 64mm into a Y then have 1 64 coming out the other side can someone with more knowledge of hydraulics tell em if you get more water out? Or are you still just trying to put an elephant through a car door?
Higher pressure coming out dude!
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oh yeah. doh! :oops:
so lets put 3 breaching pieces on each inlet so we can have 4 24s putting water into each line in :-P
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Whats the difference between boosting with a trailer pump and a truck? Any? Saw a pump trailer being used on Greenhill road today... 6 in 6 out.
Hmm was close to stealing it :P
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Nothing at all, just cheaper to have a pump on a trailer.
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Whats the difference between boosting with a trailer pump and a truck? Any? Saw a pump trailer being used on Greenhill road today... 6 in 6 out.
Hmm was close to stealing it :P
Crikey do u stalk these things or something, i have never seen one in 13 yrs driving around adelaide :-P
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Whats the difference between boosting with a trailer pump and a truck? Any? Saw a pump trailer being used on Greenhill road today... 6 in 6 out.
Hmm was close to stealing it :P
Crikey do u stalk these things or something, i have never seen one in 13 yrs driving around adelaide :-P
I can see a pump trailer from where I am right now... (yeah seriously)
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Nah not stalk. Just interested and i drive around a lot for work.
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There are a few firms in adealide that use a large trailer pump set up its not the same set up as what we use in firefighting and i am sure if you go and talk to these guys that have these pumps you will find out they are CFS members.
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There are a few firms in adealide that use a large trailer pump set up its not the same set up as what we use in firefighting and i am sure if you go and talk to these guys that have these pumps you will find out they are CFS members.
You mean its a pump that pumps water... but... not like we use in firefighting? Why? Is it powered by rainbows? Does the water turn into wine? Is it called the Jesus Pump?
What happens in buildings over 75m high that don't have Booster Pump installed to service higher levels?
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Water into wine? I'm in.
Yeah the one on greenhill was a trailer pump. looked liked a detroit diesel engine or similiar and the one of cavan was an mfb looking acco.
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Whats the difference between boosting with a trailer pump and a truck? Any? Saw a pump trailer being used on Greenhill road today... 6 in 6 out.
Hmm was close to stealing it :P
Crikey do u stalk these things or something, i have never seen one in 13 yrs driving around adelaide :-P
A few years ago Meadows CFS had a pump trailer in their shed for pumping from dams into a floating collar dam.
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Whats the difference between boosting with a trailer pump and a truck? Any? Saw a pump trailer being used on Greenhill road today... 6 in 6 out.
Hmm was close to stealing it :P
Crikey do u stalk these things or something, i have never seen one in 13 yrs driving around adelaide :-P
A few years ago Meadows CFS had a pump trailer in their shed for pumping from dams into a floating collar dam.
Yeah... but don't forget the huge difference between CFS "Pump trailers" and a Real mans pump trailer.
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i did a bit of hunting. is this close to a sizable pump trailer?
http://fire-brigade.asn.au/photos/sacfs-onkg-trl.jpg
looks close to 150mm in. 4 out. Decent. Powered by a VW engine i believe.
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Nah the one i saw was on a dual axle trailer with a massive engine strapped to it... looked to be a big v8 diesel. 100mm in i think with 6 in/ 6 out. I did some asking around with a few mates. There are three using trailer pumps and one using an acco.
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The Onka trailer pump is closest to a true pump trailer - the Meadows one is more of a pump, plonked on the back of a trailer - although I believe it is powered by a 1600cc VW engine, with a Magirus TS 8/8 pump.
Pip
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Ah yes, the Onka Group "Fisher Price, My first pump trailer" set. Buy now.
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It'd be sort of the second pump set...I believe the pump was replaced not that long ago.....!!! : :-D :evil:
Pip