SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Other Government Agencies => Topic started by: bajdas on August 19, 2007, 07:25:25 AM
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During the working week, I witnessed the following:
Station wagon, emergency services car with multi-lights on top active. Siren was active on a pulse sound. Approaching North Tce from King William St near the Festival Centre. Travelling in a southern direction. Single person in the car.
This was during a lunchtime, mid working week and the new tram tracks are being built in the area. Heavy traffic was at a stand-still on the corner of North Tce & King William St traffic lights.
I first saw the vehicle when it was on the outer lane (near median strip), wrong side of King William St travelling south. This was near the traffic lights at the Festival Centre.
Because the traffic lights were red, traffic was stopped across all four lanes (both sides) so the vehicle was blocked.
He turned into the turning gap in the median strip & waited for traffic to clear. The sirens & lights were left on.
Because of the lights & sirens (I assume), the traffic did not move when lights turned green. I assume because they did not know which way the emergency vehicle was going to go.
The emergency vehicle then moved to the parking/bus stop lane on the wrong side of the road. This was the only lane clear.
He then continued traveling south on the wrong side of King William St in the parking lane/bus stops, until he reached the intersection of North Tce & King William St.
He then turned right, heading down North Tce towards West Tce.
On North Tce he was on the wrong side of the road in the outer lane (near median strip).
Now my questions are:
1/ He was responding to a possible life threat incident. But is traveling in the parking lane on the wrong side of a four lane road (one side) in the city too dangerous ?
2/ With the city becoming more unfriendly to vehicles, is there a designated/recommended route for emergency vehicles to take to cross the city ? Or should there be ?
Can the vehicles travel on the tram tracks part of the road when they are finished ?
For background on question 2, I work in a city building on North Tce. Since the new tram tracks have been installed, emergency vehicles using lights/sirens have consistently been blocked by traffic while traveling on North Tce.
I assumed this would all be resolved when the construction works have been completed, but now I wonder !!!
Please note, that I am not a current designated P1 driver. I have driven lights/sirens many years ago and I am a current emergency service vehicle driver. But not P1.
Observations and comments are made not as a criticism, but for myself to learn more. Thus I am not mentioning the agency involved because it would not aid the discussion.
**personal observations only**
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Judging by the way you described this station wagon it must have been an SAAS Regional Team Leaders vehicle responding to a Category 1 case and as the vehicle turned into the median strip probably got a radio call saying the case was cancelled
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You use what parts of the road you can... I've been in appliances coming along the wrong side of the road upto an intersection on a blind crest of a hill. Not great, but hey thats what you do when the situation warrants it.
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Judging by the way you described this station wagon it must have been an SAAS Regional Team Leaders vehicle responding to a Category 1 case and as the vehicle turned into the median strip probably got a radio call saying the case was cancelled
Not a cancelled call...he continued using the parking lane.
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bajdas- Not sure on any definite answers but i know emergency vehicles in Melbourne use the tram tracks to their advantage often. When traffic is heavy the tram tracks act as a clear path for the emergency vehicle to travel when trams are not in the way. It makes me wonder if SAAS,MFS,SAPOL etc will be having any P1 training for city driving using the new tram tracks etc?
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In answer to your second question, I think it would be a good idea to have designated routes, or a publicised standard to follow (ie, emergency vehicles will always travel in the right hand lane).
I believe some countries have a standard that says which lane the emergency vehicles will use, so that when motorists hear/see an emergency vehicle coming, they simply clear that lane, rather than panic and scatter, like they do here...
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They are meant to merge left, upon hearing or seeing an emergency vehicle... But you know as well as I do that when you're belting down the road and the appliance is being driven in either the middle or left hand lane, it causes a great deal of confusion.
Freeways and large multi-laned roads are the big ones. Because SACFS offers no real driver training in terms of response driving, people drive the appliances with a civilian point of view - Eg: I'm on the freeway, I'm a truck, I'd better use the left hand lane.
It would be really simple if emergency vehicles traveled in the right hand lane, regardless of the speed you're going...
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It would be really simple if emergency vehicles traveled in the right hand lane, regardless of the speed you're going...
Agreed. Is the merging left thing in the road rules, or is it just tradition?
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According to Section 78 of the Australian Road Rules:
78—Keeping clear of police and emergency vehicles
(1) A driver must not move into the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm.
Offence provision.
Note — Approaching, emergency vehicle and police vehicle are defined in the dictionary.
(2) If a driver is in the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other lights) or sounding an alarm, the driver must move out of the path of the vehicle as soon as the driver can do so safely.
Offence provision.
(3) This rule applies to the driver despite any other rule of the Australian Road Rules.
There used to be an advertising campaign, if i recall correctly, that was all about moving to the left out of the way of an emergency vehicle. Although nothing is explicitly stated in law.
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As a former AO we undertook Priority 1 driving tests and it has always been the rule of thumb to maintain the outside lane to allow vehicles to merge to the left and/or stop in the left hand lane to allow clear passage.
This also allows the emergency vehicle to cross the median strip if required to bypass stopped traffic.
You cannot expect the public to give you a clear run if you are travelling lights and sirens in the left hand lane,unless you are about to turn left.
At the end of the day common sense must prevail and also the decision to travel on the incorrect side of the road must take into account weather conditions,visibility to oncoming traffic,nature of emergency.
As for driving on tram lines try driving on them in the wet, and you will get a big surprise if you push it :wink:
There is no situation so great as to create another emergency!!
You cant help anyone if you are involved in an incident enroute to a job.
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Police drivers have also been taught to stick to the right lane, where possible, when travelling lights & sirens....
Pip
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no matter how we drive under urgent conditions the public will always throw a spaner in the works with my training as an ambulance officer we have been trained to use the all of the road providing it is safe to do so ie wrong side of the road at trafic lights but staying on the right side of the white line unless we need to get around traffic
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Now my questions are:
1/ He was responding to a possible life threat incident. But is traveling in the parking lane on the wrong side of a four lane road (one side) in the city too dangerous ?
2/ With the city becoming more unfriendly to vehicles, is there a designated/recommended route for emergency vehicles to take to cross the city ? Or should there be ?
Can the vehicles travel on the tram tracks part of the road when they are finished ?
Q1. Given that traffic was at a stand-still anyway, or nearly so, the risk of any collision would have been low. Had the traffic not been so snarled, there would have been no need to even consider using the wrong-side parking lane. Sounds like the driver was looking ahead, carefully reviewing their options & waiting patiently for opportunities.
Q2. MFS have a designated route to each CBD address from Wakefield St. & many of the lights are held for them from Comms. So, apart from suicidal pedestrians, a fairly clear run up which ever route is nominated. Other services have to find their own way. Too many possible starting points to any possible destination. A bit hard to plan for, perhaps? I won't mention that Ambo's responding from MFS Wakefield St do not get the benefit of MFS traffic control. Is "empire maintenance" a valid reason?
Q3. Yes, that is The Plan. Or at least, a fringe benefit thereof (and taxed at 47% ?)
cheers
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I'm curious to find how different agencies are trained for emergency driving conditions... To be able to respond "lights or sirens" is it simply going for a drive with a senior person in your brigade/unit/station or do they run intensive driver training programs around the place, if so what's incorporated and how long do they go for?
Stefan KIRKMOE
yet again my opinions....
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I'm curious to find how different agencies are trained for emergency driving conditions... To be able to respond "lights or sirens" is it simply going for a drive with a senior person in your brigade/unit/station or do they run intensive driver training programs around the place, if so what's incorporated and how long do they go for?
Trained ??!!! .. . Oh, I get it.. a joke !
Well not quite. Somewhere between the two extremes.
Our drivers are not allowed to drive response until brigade officers agree that
they have demonstrated competence at driving the appliances, competence in
operating them, & a level head under pressure.
Fairly arbitrary, but in the absence of some sort of "standard" that's the best
we have got.
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I'm curious to find how different agencies are trained for emergency driving conditions... To be able to respond "lights or sirens" is it simply going for a drive with a senior person in your brigade/unit/station or do they run intensive driver training programs around the place, if so what's incorporated and how long do they go for?
Trained ??!!! .. . Oh, I get it.. a joke !
Well not quite. Somewhere between the two extremes.
Our drivers are not allowed to drive response until brigade officers agree that
they have demonstrated competence at driving the appliances, competence in
operating them, & a level head under pressure.
Fairly arbitrary, but in the absence of some sort of "standard" that's the best
we have got.
The same, though a SES Training Officer did state a course was being developed/proposed for funding approval.
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I've posted on this subject before, I think it's an appalling indictment on CFS top brass and the govt that it's going to take someone getting killed or seriously injured before the CFS introduce P1 driver training (exactly the same as nothing happened about offroad driver training until the Mt Bryan incident and Safework SA issued the improvement notices on the CFS).
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The Murray Bridge roll over doesnt seem to turn on the minister's light to make P1 driver training a must.
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That roll over may not have attracted a default notice from Safe Work SA....
Pip
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From what i understand, there were legal precedings against the driver???...for driving unlawfully even on Priority 1? Werent there injuries which Safework SA would have been notifyed of?
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wasnt a stop call put on them or just after the rollover i am awhere that they were not required and were they not ment to be responding P2 anyway not P1 i remember reading something about it being non lights and sirens??????
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wasnt a stop call put on them or just after the rollover i am awhere that they were not required and were they not ment to be responding P2 anyway not P1 i remember reading something about it being non lights and sirens??????
was a first alarm hazmat, no stop or downgrade had been put on the call.. the crash happened onyl a few moments after the dispatch.
perhaps only comment if you know the facts.
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Agrees with Mack..
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Remember, all caution should be given to rumours about this kind of incident. Would be interesting to see how far away the report is.
Really. If there is a need for a siren use it - if not then dont. as long as it can be justified either way
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as i was not in the truck i do not no the full facts however from media relesses and press confrences it was mentioned that there was a stop or a stop about to be placed on the crew it is unfourtunite that it happened its not the first and its not the last i do agree that there needs to be urgent driving tought to CFS and SES members SAAS already teach there volunteers defensive driving and urgent driving there is a very strict test you have to complette prior to being allowed to drive underlights i belive that all volunteer emergency services should teach there drivers how to drive under lights
my view
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as i was not in the truck i do not no the full facts however from media relesses and press confrences it was mentioned that there was a stop or a stop about to be placed on the crew
unfortunately your information is incorrect. if there was indeed a stop on the incident or a stop about to be placed... then why was oakbank/balhannah responded in murray bridge's place on the run to keep the appropriate resources goign?
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Lets get back to the topic proper. If the MB incident is to be discussed, keep it to the facts only - and post in the relevant thread
http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=443.0 (http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=443.0)
Cheers
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i am only going on the information that i have read and heard i was not there i was not involved in the incident i wish all the persons involed well with any injurys sustained i also hope that with this incident that they well stay with the CFS i am only going on what i know as i was not involved
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Well if you don't know, and are only going on "hearsay", then don't comment..!
Thats how the rumour mill gets cranking and sheit flinging starts..
-You have been told by another forum member that knows, that the information you are going on, is incorrect. - End of story.
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Back to the original subject of the topic... I believe (and people can feel free to correct me) that there is no rule saying that emergency vehicles must respond to an incidents with lights and/or sirens going.
If you try to get to the incident quickly - that's enough, and you're not going to get in any trouble, and you won't have to justify your reasoning. However if you travel lights and sirens to something that isn't a life threat, and something goes wrong - you CAN get in trouble.
Would others agree?
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you need to justify why they were used if something bad happens.
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Back to the original subject of the topic... I believe (and people can feel free to correct me) that there is no rule saying that emergency vehicles must respond to an incidents with lights and/or sirens going.
If you try to get to the incident quickly - that's enough, and you're not going to get in any trouble, and you won't have to justify your reasoning. However if you travel lights and sirens to something that isn't a life threat, and something goes wrong - you CAN get in trouble.
Would others agree?
The only time an Emergency vehicle is required to use lights and / or sirens, (under the Australian Road Rules) is when the vehicle is breaking the road rules...then to be protected under the ARR, you must have lights and / or sirens on...if you don't break the road rules, there is no requirement under the Road Traffic Act (which the Australian road rules come under), to use them...
Pip
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The only time an Emergency vehicle is required to use lights and / or sirens, (under the Australian Road Rules) is when the vehicle is breaking the road rules...then to be protected under the ARR, you must have lights and / or sirens on...if you don't break the road rules, there is no requirement under the Road Traffic Act (which the Australian road rules come under), to use them...
G'day Pip
Nit picking perhaps, but I'm not comfortable with the word "protected" - if you make an error of judgement under L&S, you are not "protected" from prosecution. A better way of putting it perhaps, might be "to claim your exemption from normal road rules, you must have lights and/or siren on..."
cheers
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Despite all of the decision makers & chain of command, the ultimate responsibility is the driver who switched the lights/sirens off. I have no issue with that...
But who wears the responsibility for making the decision to switch the lights/sirens on ?
From what I have read above, it can include 'call taker/dispatch', 'regional/group officer', 'brigade management', 'OIC of vehicle' & 'driver of vehicle'. Seems confusing to myself.
Ultimately all decisions will rest with Chief Officer, but in a practical sense where does the responsibility for the decision lie ?
My guess is that with the first responders it is the brigade management transferred to OIC in vehicle. With second responders it would be with incident OIC.
Am I correct ?
** Within SES, I understand the ruling is Unit OIC on duty (Unit Duty Officer on behalf of Unit Manager) issues the incident priorities.
They have the most information on the incident & can overide dispatch priorities if needed. This can include updated information from victim, crew responding, regional management, sitreps or other agencies.
If the vehicle OIC or driver wants to switch light/sirens on, they then request permission via radio. Unless it is for the safety of the people within the vehicle.
A driver can refuse to switch them on for vehicle & crew safety.
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The driver will always be responsible for what happens on the day.. The buck will stop, firmly and abruptly in most cases, with them!
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The only time an Emergency vehicle is required to use lights and / or sirens, (under the Australian Road Rules) is when the vehicle is breaking the road rules...then to be protected under the ARR, you must have lights and / or sirens on...if you don't break the road rules, there is no requirement under the Road Traffic Act (which the Australian road rules come under), to use them...
G'day Pip
Nit picking perhaps, but I'm not comfortable with the word "protected" - if you make an error of judgement under L&S, you are not "protected" from prosecution. A better way of putting it perhaps, might be "to claim your exemption from normal road rules, you must have lights and/or siren on..."
cheers
To clarify, when I say "protected" I mean you don't get a fine for being snapped by a red light camera, driving on the wrong side of the of the road etc.....of course, if something goes wrong you can still be charged with things like driving without due care etc etc - and the emergency driver has to show they were acting with appropriately, and with due care & attention (even if they were on the wrong side of the road!!)
Pip
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So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....
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So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....
Yes.
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So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....
Of course.. - But does it stop anyone??- Including those that find it odd? .. Of course not!
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So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....
Of course.. - But does it stop anyone??- Including those that find it odd? .. Of course not!
I find it odd, & I drive, but what alternative is there?
Certainly get the present driver training done, & get as much experience as possible. Any other suggestions??
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SA Road Rules in relation to the topic: (sorry for length)
110AAAA—Certain provisions not to apply to drivers of emergency vehicles
(1) Sections 44B, 45A, 82, 83 and 110 do not apply to the driver of an emergency vehicle
if—
(a) in the circumstances—
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care; and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply; and
(b) if the vehicle is a motor vehicle that is moving—the vehicle is displaying a
blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm.
(2) Subsection (1)(b) does not apply to a vehicle used by a police officer if, in the
circumstances, it is reasonable—
(a) not to display the light or sound the alarm; or
(b) for the vehicle not to be fitted or equipped with a blue or red flashing light or
an alarm.
(3) In this section—
emergency vehicle means a vehicle used by—
(a) a police officer; or
(b) a person who is an emergency worker as defined by the regulations for the
purposes of this section.
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44B—Misuse of motor vehicle
(1) For the purposes of this section, a person misuses a motor vehicle if the person—
(a) drives a motor vehicle, in a public place, in a race between vehicles, a vehicle
speed trial, a vehicle pursuit or any competitive trial to test drivers' skills or
vehicles; or
(b) operates a motor vehicle in a public place so as to produce sustained wheel
spin; or
(c) drives a motor vehicle in a public place so as to cause engine or tyre noise, or
both, that is likely to disturb persons residing or working in the vicinity; or
(d) drives a motor vehicle onto an area of park or garden (whether public or
private) or a road related area so as to break up the ground surface or cause
other damage.
(2) However, conduct of a type described in subsection (1) does not constitute misuse of a
motor vehicle if it occurs in a place with the consent of the owner or occupier of the
place or the person who has the care, control and management of the place.
(3) A person who misuses a motor vehicle is guilty of an offence.
(4) A person who promotes or organises an event involving the misuse of a motor vehicle,
knowing that it will involve the misuse of a motor vehicle, is guilty of an offence.
(5) Where a court convicts a person of an offence against this section, the court must, if
satisfied that the offending caused damage to, or the destruction of, any property or
damage to an area of park or garden or a road related area, order the convicted person
to pay to the owner of the property, or the owner, occupier or person who has the care,
control and management of the area, such compensation as the court thinks fit.
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45A—Excessive speed
(1) A person who drives a vehicle at a speed exceeding, by 45 kilometres an hour or
more, a speed limit that applies under this Act or the Motor Vehicles Act 1959 is guilty
of an offence.
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82—Speed limit while passing school bus
(1) A person must not drive a vehicle at a greater speed than 25 kilometres per hour while
passing a school bus that has stopped on a road apparently for the purpose of
permitting children to board or alight.
(2) In this section—
school bus means a bus that displays the warning signs and devices required by the
vehicle standards for buses used mainly for carrying children.
83—Speed while passing emergency vehicle with flashing lights
(1) A person must, while passing an emergency vehicle that has stopped on a road and is
displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other
lights)—
(a) drive at a speed no greater than 40 kilometres per hour; or
(b) if a lesser speed is required in the circumstances to avoid endangering any
person—drive at that lesser speed.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person is driving on a road that is divided by a
median strip and the emergency vehicle is on the other side of the road beyond the
median strip.
(3) In this section—
emergency vehicle means a vehicle used by—
(a) a police officer; or
(b) a person who is an emergency worker as defined by the regulations for the
purposes of this section.
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110—Driving on sealed surface
A person driving a vehicle on a road which has portion of its surface sealed with
bitumen, cement or other sealing substance must, whenever it is reasonably
practicable to do so, keep the whole of the vehicle on the sealed portion of the surface.
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Note that you can still be charged with driving without due care & driving in a manner dangerous. So regardless you have to justify your actions and speed etc.
I think SAAS send out a please explain form if you get done at over 40km/h and it is reviewed by a judge/magistrate who decideds what action (if req) will be taken.
Also I think anything over 20km/h services get sent a please explain (or need to have appropriate data to justify the response, so case number and response category etc I guess)
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COSO 7 and 8 cover it all
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So it's fine to do wheelies in a paddock as long as lights and or sirens are operating. :lol:
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Thats ok then :wink:
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At the end of the day it is the emergency vehicle driver who the coroner will be gunning for if you do the wrong thing.
Its that time to bring out the "Getting there safely" and "It Will Never Happen To Us DVD" to remind the drivers of their responsibilities when driving a fire appliance. :-D