SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: 6739264 on July 31, 2010, 08:50:54 PM
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Dear SES,
If a job is important enough for you to travel to it with your visible and audible warning devices operating, why are is the local Fire Station deemed unworthy of being responded? Are you THAT jealous of the Fire Station being able to turn out and get to a job in under an hour? Scared of the local fire trucks finishing the job before you arrive? Why so cagey?
Love,
The Fire Brigade.
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What job are ya whinging about this time mate? Doesnt look to me as though this has occured at all during this event?
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Looks like your wishes have been answered anwyay mate.
*CFSRES INC104 31/07/10 21:06,RESPOND Flooding/Salvage,20-20B NORTH RAILWAY TCE,NAIRNE MAP 161 M 9 TG128,RESPOND TO ASSIST SES URGENT ASSITANCE R,EQUIRE
D.,NAIR00 LTHT00
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What job are ya whinging about this time mate? Doesnt look to me as though this has occured at all during this event?
Can I draw your attention to a handful of jobs that have been turned out as P1 (not bothering with P2, as that covers near 99% of the others)without a Fire Appliance attending:
31-07-10 21:01:13 SCC: *CFSRES: TASK NO 12, RESPOND TREE DOWN, MOONEE HILLS ROAD BETWEEN HERMANS GATEWAY AND WATSONS GATEWAY MILL PARK, TREE ON MAIN ROAD, VICKY, P1, MEN
31-07-10 20:57:52 SCC: *CFSRES: TASK NO 14, RESPOND TREE DOWN, LOT 3 VIRGO RD MURRAY BRIDGE, ON ROAD WITH POWER LINES ETSA CONTACTED, TIFFANY, P1, MRB
31-07-10 20:46:11 SCC: *CFSRES: TASK NO 9, RESPOND FLOOD THREAT, 69 MAIN STR GERMAN ARMS HOTEL HAHNDORF, NEED SANBAGGING, JOSH, P1, MTB
Et cetera, et cetera...
It's not hard Gentlemen! (See! You even got it right ONCE! with DIN 99 / Task 7)
Head (out of) Arse.
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MMM bit strange mate, but same old.
I guess we can always take a good hard look at ourselves though and the way we turn ourselves out. Most of the CFS brigades out there managing there own responses via ALERTS are sending the wrong trucks to locations and insufficient resources.
CFS as a service cant exactly throw stones.
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CFS as a service cant exactly throw stones.
As a service? God no. But then again, I'll happily throw stones at the SACFS and anyone else deserving them. :wink:
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numbers maybe you might want to rememeber
John 8:7 "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone""
if you don't like how SCC do it i'm sure they would love your help.
also does a tree on power lines really need a fire truck?, you can't touch it any more than we can. if its blocking a road get sapol to babysit until etsa deal with it
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HAHAHAHA GROW UP !!
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have to agree to that,
on another question can scc actaully drop pages for cfs and mfs, just watching the pager site, the last few tree jobs to cfs units have come from mfs while scc is still open
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depends which number the person calls, and how generous the fire comcen operator is i bet ;)
Ive seen some people get hung up on during a event like this for calling 000..
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Andrew - SES SCC can only page/respond SES resources.
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"31-07-10 20:57:52 SCC: *CFSRES: TASK NO 14, RESPOND TREE DOWN, LOT 3 VIRGO RD MURRAY BRIDGE, ON ROAD WITH POWER LINES ETSA CONTACTED, TIFFANY, P1, MRB"
local knowledge goes a long way.... like its a back street.... dirt road.... edge of town... NO HUGE life threat....
obviousally use ur noggin...
people have brains for a reason.
Not bagging SES nor sticking up for just think that common sense goes a long way.
BTW this job was NOT treated as a P1 by the MRB guys they drove under normal aussie road rules......
:-)
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Dear SES,
If a job is important enough for you to travel to it with your visible and audible warning devices operating, why are is the local Fire Station deemed unworthy of being responded? Are you THAT jealous of the Fire Station being able to turn out and get to a job in under an hour? Scared of the local fire trucks finishing the job before you arrive? Why so cagey?
Love,
The Fire Brigade.
.....or perhaps the remote possibility of a structure somewhere catching fire while you water-fairies are out doing the SES's jobs....
how many extenguishers do SES trucks carry?
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ours has 3 so we can deal with most small things that power liens down might cause
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ours has 3 so we can deal with most small things that power liens down might cause
think you might have missed the point.
3 extinguishers for a going house fire?
:? :? I think not.....
if the appliances are out doing tree down jobs - who deals with the going structure fire...or the "benign" FIP that ends up being a real one!?
and lets do have some smarts about it - if we start thinking that we can amalgamate the two services - then where is the fat in the system?!
I'm sure at Penola this week pretty much EVERYTHING from both services would have been put to use - yet the rest of the year the GO's and the SES unit managers were sitting there looking at the gear in their respective stations thinking "why do we need this much stuff between two services? What a waste of money...."
that's why it's called "surge capacity" - the Tornado doesn't hit just one property every two hours so you can deal with it before moving onto the next one.....
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ive just had a quick look over the Victorian Bushfire Royal Commission report summary. I spotted a good paragraph about Surge Capacity, and the way it did manage to work well somewhat that day. I support Boredmatrix's words re that. It is a easy thought to overlook.
You only need to look at the nations USAR surge capacity and think...probably not enough still? Particularly SA's USAR capability.
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not really, the main thing a fire truck provides is fire cover (a still 180 doesn't cut if for a good portion of the trees we see), which may be an issue for downed power lines sparking etc creating small fires / smoldering embers, 99% of you don't need a fire truck to put out
why send a truck to a job when all they can do is sit for etsa and wait same as we can may as well use sapol and then call it in once the lines are cleared.
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I guess Andrew & everyone else, what Numbers is saying is going "full noise" to a job when as you said yourself - it will be hurry up & wait is stupid!
Sapol (or in fact a fire appliance - if it was closer) could warn of the hazard until a trained & properly equipped team arrives on scene(which ever service).
The real problem is that P1 is overused.
And I have real issues with people who's only qualification is a drivers licence, driving a medium to heavy vehicle P1 to any job (doesn't matter which service) - until drivers are properly qualified to to do this task then no one should be driving P1 especially in metro/built up areas.
We have a real simple system Respond (full noise, life property threat & a gold licence) & Proceed (normal response - for every other task & for those without a gold licence regardless of the task). Having completed the "respond" (Drive vehicles under operational conditions - not the 4x4 )course which includes video of NSWFB & Ambulance service driving Respond in Sydney & completing a very tough assessment with a Fed cop I have realised just how much of a risk I was taking driving trucks at P1 in SA (even though I have had years of experience driving heavy vehicles including defence advanced driving -just my thoughts cheers
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Chook.......what the hell has got into you, that post was half sensible!....have you been training secrectly with a fire service?
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No not at all - just seeing things from a different point of view :wink:
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1908032 17:32:27 08-08-10 MFS: *CFSRES INC040 08/08/10 17:30,RESPOND Tree Down,7 ROCHESTER AV,COLONEL LIGHT GARDENS MAP 142 D 4,ASSIST ETSA, LARGE TREE DOWN ON POWER LI,NES, PWR IS OFF CALL DAVE ON 0403582153,P1,MIT020
SES Metro South Info
Forgive me for asking but why P1 for this job...??? (I do appreciate that a pager message is only providing limited info, and there might be additional intel to suggest a need for a P1 response)..???
Cheers
Shane
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the same could be asked as to why SAAS sends crews Cat B to medical alarms with no voice contact- the large majority being activation errors.
When SPRINT cars are being used properly they sometimes get tasked solo to these jobs with good effect- but they are still responded full noise.
The fact remains that everyone is so worried about being taken to task by the coroner (or in this state- the media...usually the Advertiser or channel 7) for the 'what if' scenario- that they routinely put staff at risk because of it! Sure- SAAS staff spend the better part of a week doing a driver training program......not sure what SES or fireys get....but is this an appropriate measured risk?
Not the way i've seen SES blokes driving it's not......
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It all comes down to Risk=Response, and the driver is the one who will get the please explain from the coroner, not the OIC.
Everyone regardless of who they are must "drive with due care" and every service has had its fair share of siren jockeys over the years SAAS included...(SPRINT CAR airbourne over median strips comes to mind) :evil:
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1908032 17:32:27 08-08-10 MFS: *CFSRES INC040 08/08/10 17:30,RESPOND Tree Down,7 ROCHESTER AV,COLONEL LIGHT GARDENS MAP 142 D 4,ASSIST ETSA, LARGE TREE DOWN ON POWER LI,NES, PWR IS OFF CALL DAVE ON 0403582153,P1,MIT020
SES Metro South Info
Forgive me for asking but why P1 for this job...??? (I do appreciate that a pager message is only providing limited info, and there might be additional intel to suggest a need for a P1 response)..???
Cheers
Shane
I think the risk is electrical from the street powerlines, to the public, if the line snaps. Standard computer setting even though ETSA are there.
Most Duty Officers of Units will get more information from the caller as volunteers respond (the reason for caller telephone numbers on the pager).
The actual response driving decision is made by the driver / OIC with the updated sitrep. In this case that sitrep includes ETSA is on site.
Not everyone responds how the computer paging system suggests.
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Forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't the theory of lights and sirens to signal other drivers to move out the way and to allow emergency vehicles right of passage through intersections etc and not to drive fast. In the above scenario, could the crew still stick to the speed limit and use lights and sirens to clear traffic? I have seen SAAS do this many times, for example it's late night and there are few cars on the road, so they might do just above the speed limit with just the lights on and use the siren through intersections.
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Forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't the theory of lights and sirens to signal other drivers to move out the way and to allow emergency vehicles right of passage through intersections etc and not to drive fast. In the above scenario, could the crew still stick to the speed limit and use lights and sirens to clear traffic? I have seen SAAS do this many times, for example it's late night and there are few cars on the road, so they might do just above the speed limit with just the lights on and use the siren through intersections.
This is true, and people tend to forget this very often. Lights and Sirens aren't a magic "drive fast and reckless" switch. My original suggestion was regarding the use of lights and sirens after a substantial amount of time eg:
If its urgent enough to travel to P1, then shouldn't an emergency service attend ASAP?
So, shouldn't the Fire Service (who can perform exactly the same at storm & tempest events as SES) attend as well?
And if the SES don't default and are happy to job stack, then doesn't that negate the need for a P1 response?
If it takes you 30 minutes to finish the last job and book mobile to the next, then the couple of minutes you save under P1 conditions isn't going to matter is it?
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Where does the assumption come from, that because a computer program classifies taskings as P1 to SES, it automatically means 'lights & sirens' driving ?
From my understanding, 'lights & sirens' are NOT always used during large 'storm & tempest' events. Even if the page states P1.
Yes some Units do, but I do not believe the majority.
But the triage of taskings will mean that P1 taskings are higher in the list than P3's etc.
During the 3rd September 'storm & flooding' event, many taskings for tree down on roads were sent to MFS/CFS via Adel Fire.
The integration of computer systems to enable easier MFS/CFS/SAAS/SES response and triage is happening. So I believe it will get better, but is taking time to happen....
** my personal opinion only & correct me if I am wrong (nicely pls) **
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The point was why do the SES respond past the local fire station when they could deal with the situation. A sensible point of view? There must also be a point in time when any Officer can no longer justify a P1 response because the notification was too long ago. So in the situation where multiple jobs are received and their are no resources left to respond tells Comms to send someone else. Because asking for help is not a failure.
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sometimes i'd say they can;t deal with the situations or they try to and make it harder for themselves and us , more from lack of proper training and practice than anything else
i've been to a number of tree downs where the mfs have got their saws stuck in the tree cut a touch to far and the tree has compressed on the blade and most trucks only carry one saw.
Or the senior officer walking under a wall where the only supporting column for 10m has been taken out buy a car and the whole thing is sagging with cracks showing in the brick work, - again maybe its best at times to wait cordon it off as a few hundred kgs of bricks will spoil anyones day
or in a rescue from a roof, 6 firefighters standing on a room held in by 8 roofing screws
so really if the fire brigade responds should depend on the job and if they can do it.
as for the when is it not a lights / sirens job, for our unit we say 8mins from time of page if the truck isn't out the door then go standard road rulles unless the UM, DUM, or RDO tells you to come lights / sirens
IF during multi taskings we get a rescue / person trapped/ shoring job etc and we are on a flooding that is just water somewhere or a tree in back yard job then they truck will go and leave maybe 2 crew at the job site and will send a support vehicle down to assist / transprot
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And I've witnessed SES members doing dangerous & stupid things with chainsaws, which put my CFS members in danger.....
When it comes to multiple jobs, it makes sense that the nearest & most appropriate service be responded. In my area, it makes sense for the local CFS to remove the tree across the road - as we have the right gear, the trained & experienced people, and members of the community don't have to wait for 45 minutes + to have someone attend and start removing an impassable obstacle from the main road!
On the other hand, if a house roof needs tarping, then often the nearest & most appropriate service may well be the 'local' SES, who carry the tarps etc to do the job - something we only carry limited numbers of.
Pip
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Maybe some sanity from the new chief officer might be injected into the mix......Oh hang on he's a Tasmanian :-D
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Do you want us to remove his second head before he arrives or will you fix that ?
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Well he must have been the right person for the job,2heads and all.....
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I love how the rumour mill knows info before it is official .... first I have heard of who the new CO will be :mrgreen:
"just found the announcement after I originally posted this message"
At least the proper dispatch system is being developed where the 'closest & most appropriate' resource will be paged (if the data is correct)...
I agree with what you are suggesting...at the moment it is a complicated system with many steps and this makes it difficult.
Will wait & see how it works when the new system is implemented.
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Pipster i'm not saying the ses doesn't have some idiots that do stupid things, and if your unit has the people with the equipment and experince to do the job fine, but in our area our mfs units are great at road crash and putting out fires but from some other things they need to stand back, and let the people with the training do the job rather than "we are the fire service and we can do anything" pile in and wing it / pray it which seems to be the current attitude, including pulling out acro props from lintals while standing under a collpsing roof.
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We all know of, or witness people in various services do things that are stupid / unsafe / not appropriate........
My point was that the nearest & most appropriate resource should be responded - not necessarily the nearest resource....and in my area, for trees across roads, the appropriate, and nearest resource is the local CFS......in other areas of the state it may be SES or MFS....
I've been told the three services have signed an agreement to send the fastest & most appropriate resource, yet we are still seeing inappropriate resources being sent......I can only hope that SACAD will address this problem....but I won't hold my breathe!
Pip
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Pip they also carry ample sandwiches for us firies thisis what they are best at! S-send - extra S- sandwiches :evil:
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Not if they have Spam sandwiches... I'll stick with our truck's snack pack...!!
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Watch this space, change is on the way.
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Watch this space, change is on the way.
If you are talking about the volunteer review, already happening & fully announced. If not, then fishing lines are stupid unless you care to elaborate :-(
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If you are talking about the volunteer review, already happening & fully announced. If not, then fishing lines are stupid unless you care to elaborate :-(
What's the volunteer review about?
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when it comes down to it the ses will get them selves into trouble one day by job stacking and slow response times all due to their pig headedness towards other services. (not saying ll ses just some)