SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: bittenyakka on May 30, 2007, 09:17:11 PM
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In the CFS it is some times an issue where a FF with not much experience gets the task of running a job. I read this http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=91011
On firehouse and thought it was a case of incredible American's wanting authority. But out of interest wondered if any of you guys and gals had had similar situations or what you would do if you can see that something is not going to work?
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I have been OIC of a vehicle twice before. Now, before I go on i'll point out that im 18 and have been in for 2 years, so I was definitely not a first choice for both.
The first time I was OIC of a second responding vehicle with captain who was driving and two first jobbers. So I was the only real option. I didn't freak out or mess up which I was happy with but we got stopped on arrival so i didn't have to do much.
second time was on night shift for the onka gorge fire. At the time I thought I was the last choice again due to the most experienced guy driving. the other two guys weren't from my brigade so when we were at staging I was trying to work out these guys experience and whether they wanted to/ could do the job. They both were non commital so I took it on. Turns out that they had been in for 10 and 25 years respectively, which made me feel llike a right knob. Anyway, I did that job fairly easily, but there wasn't much to do besides basic radio talk and help plotting a backburn on the GPS.
When you don't have an officer, It just comes down to who you think is most suitable. Both times there were no other choices (or so I thought)when I took on the job. Fortunately both of those jobs hd wound down when I showed up. If one the size of mt bold came up i definitely wouldn't do it.
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chain of command...
thats pretty much all that can be said.
if there are no officers or seniors then it falls to a firefighter, if there is a firefighter that is able to take the role on with sufficient experience/quals. then no probs, ive done it many times myself as a FF and it happens in brigades statewide every day.
the thing to remember is though, if a FF is the most experienced/qualified person on the crew, then is the crew really adequate to respond at all?
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the thing to remember is though, if a FF is the most experienced/qualified person on the crew, then is the crew really adequate to respond at all?
In a lot of cases, YES. A red stripe or a yellow helmet in the CFS is the result of a vote, not necessarily a ringing declaration of competence or leadership. Yes, a brigade may have the best in place, but in a lot of cases there ARE other firefighters with just as much, if not MORE experience who are just that; firefighters.
As long as the level of experience and qualifications of the crew as a whole are adequate, and these are taken into account then why SHOULDNT a truck full of white helmets be, as Mack put it, "Adequate" to get the job done?
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How many brigades work specifically on providing training to their fire fighters, in taking control of an incident, so that it an Officer is not there, at least those in the crew are confident, and competent at doing the job ?
I spend a fair bit of time in my brigade doing this - everyone in the brigade gets some of this training - and it helps to identify future Officers. Those that show some potential end up getting some extra training..
Pip
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So what are you saying Mack? If the FF is in charge dont respond? That would be interesting to explain to a coroner (worst case scenario).
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lol
firstly smallflame, i know all about what you are saying, and in my brigade there are a number of FFs that are better suited to our SFF positions, but of course when it comes down to it, everything is a popularity contest ;)
Uniden - no i am not, i am a FF and have been in charge of appliances many times, what i was stating was that if a FF is in charge, then from my experience it usually means brigades are running a bit short crewed, this was why i was stating the fact that it is always worth considering whether the crew is adequate for the job.
Also, what would be more difficult to explain to the coroner?
That you didnt respond because of an inadequate crew? or that a member of the public or a firefighter is dead because of an inadequate crew trying to "do the best they could"?
just my $0.02 anyway, i wouldnt hesitate to respond with a firie in charge if they had sufficient backup in the form of there crew.
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just my $0.02 anyway
hahaha lol :-D
sorry that just sounded funny to me
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just my $0.02 anyway
hahaha lol :-D
sorry that just sounded funny to me
awesome...
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just my $0.02 anyway
hahaha lol :-D
sorry that just sounded funny to me
awesome...
wasnt it
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I guess it really comes down to the fact that in CFS we generally are expected to be able to run jobs if need be. Since this is considered and realised both the inexperienced and experienced can work together as a team an learn from each other and accept criticisms.
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There needs to be in place where upcoming officers are given the chance to run a job and learn from the older officers who have the years and skills.a mentor system works well you can do as many courses as you like but that does not give you the skills to be a OIC or to take charge of a crew. You learn to be a officer by learning from those who have been there. but you also learn from your own mistakes....
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STOP PRESS!!!
apparently, i've just been informed by my captain, who shall remain nameless, that at both those jobs, even though I sat in the front seat and did all that stuff, I was never OIC and therefore have never been.
please, by all means, disregard anything I have said because I have no experience in that field.
sorry for making you think I knew something on the topic...
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Some people seem to think that cause you are sitting in the hot seat (front) that you are in charge. That of course is not a given, if the driver is a Senior/LT/Captain etc they can still have a good position to be in charge of the appliance if they are the only one who can drive. This gets a little tricky when you are at a running grass fire though.
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Well get more drivers trained up and let the officer sit in the passanger seat where they belong,but if you cant do that well let OIC drive and pass on instructions...
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Its all crap. There is no way anyone without the experience should be oic of a truck. If you don't have an officer... don't go. How do you get experience-Be there help an OIC out. Don't just sit back and get all chummy with your mates and say one day i'll get voted in. There is way too much responsability required from an oic. What happens when someone stuffs up or needs reprimanding. As a non elected officer the ACT does not allow you to make some decisions.
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The same thing existed under our Country Fires Act...and I presume the new Act...only elected Officers (Lt & above) can authorise the lighting of a backburn, however a firefighter acting in the position of OIC can exercise all other powers of officers, as per the Act.
Pip
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STOP PRESS!!!
apparently, i've just been informed by my captain, who shall remain nameless, that at both those jobs, even though I sat in the front seat and did all that stuff, I was never OIC and therefore have never been.
please, by all means, disregard anything I have said because I have no experience in that field.
sorry for making you think I knew something on the topic...
Copied from my post on page 2 - Now I have found out Probie's post was not an accurate statememnt, and more a sarcastic remark.
Probie, I would like you to know, that due to the "sarcastic" post, I am going to make the following statement.
I openly apologise for the comment (which was worded poorly on my part) in regards to your captain. I, believing I was sticking up for you as a younger member who 'seemed' to have been very unfairly and un-justly done by, have typed my post in your defence in a way which read very poorly. A post which was only written in an attempt to stick up for you as a member of the service which you represent. For this I apologise to the member which the post was slightly directed too.. Now, knowing more of the story, I will remove my post.
May I add, that maybe when posts are sarcastic or "not meant" in the future it is made known.
Again, my sincere apologies.
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Its all crap. There is no way anyone without the experience should be oic of a truck. If you don't have an officer... don't go. How do you get experience-Be there help an OIC out. Don't just sit back and get all chummy with your mates and say one day i'll get voted in. There is way too much responsability required from an oic. What happens when someone stuffs up or needs reprimanding. As a non elected officer the ACT does not allow you to make some decisions.
Have you ever been involved in a vol agency evac?? - particularly one where due to a popularity contest the same people are always Officers etc? - Makes it VERY hard sometimes for F/F's to get into the front seat..
Im lucky enough not to have the problem, but by the sounds of it, some do !
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Before i was made up, I had to take a few appliances as a Fire fighter to a number of diffrent jobs. Mind you I had been around a while and used the advice of some of the older guys that have been around longer than me but just dont want to be OIC.
I think you just got to make a judgment call on what you are responding to if you lack the years of experience, especially if the incident is of a technical nature.
Also you want get in trouble if you upgrade the call to get another appliance there with a Lt or Capt on board to let them take over incident control if you are uncomfortable or respond a DGO.
I got told years ago by our GO and one of our DGO's "Son you'll never get in trouble if you upgrade or respond someone for help. You will if you just try and hold the ball by yourself!"
A sort of very Australian quote but its true i guess. :-D
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i have been given a radio and told don't let the fire jump that rake hoe line and didn't let it for about half an hour until a lt came an took over. I learn't heaps.
fireblade's comment has been repeated in my station many times but sometimes i still see CFS members being so full of themselves that they don't ask for help.
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I got told years ago by our GO and one of our DGO's "Son you'll never get in trouble if you upgrade or respond someone for help. You will if you just try and hold the ball by yourself!"
A sort of very Australian quote but its true i guess. :-D
mate you finally said something sensible! (and it was quoting someone else!!) :evil: ah just kidding, well sort of.
But seriously, it pisses me off when I see someone have a go at another person for responding another truck/brigade as "we could have handled it ourselves". If that person is not sure about the situation, there's no harm at all in erring on the side of caution. We are all told in our group that if you find yourself as IC and you're not confident/happy about it, jump on the radio/phone and ask the group duty officer to respond.
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Darius your an evil man!
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I know i would rather have a stop put on us than be called late and have to be there trying to contain someone elses Filtered up
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Rescuehazmat.... 20 years cfs experience, 6 as a brigade lieutenant and 6 as a DGO. i think i have had some exposure..... All in a reasonabley active urban / rural area.
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I say fake it till you make it kids. As long as you are willing to take responsibility for the outcome of your decisions good or bad. Faking it and brown nosing together = how to become an officer in some brigades....
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Hicksflat14.... its idiots like you and that sort of stupid ideology that in areas of the state brings the service into disrepute. Pull your head in and start to portray the service in the light that it deserves!
Duty of care..... if you don't have the skills or training to carry out that duty and you stuff up.. even if you are prepared to take responsabilty.. you will be hung and dried.
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what exactly is the responsibility of the OIC. other than to protect life, property and the environment?
if a FF is running a house fire and sends a BA crew inside and obeys all SOP so has an emergency crew etc.. and something goes wrong what exactly can he be charged, or accused of?
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Rescuehazmat.... 20 years cfs experience, 6 as a brigade lieutenant and 6 as a DGO. i think i have had some exposure..... All in a reasonabley active urban / rural area.
Then you should know how hard it can be for F/F's to gain the experience of an OIC when the "same" people always do it...
I have a question, and its not a narky one, but did you ever allow a firefighter under you, or a senior, to step up and be incharge of a "less full on" job while you were in an officers role in the brigade?
If yes, then good work, we need more officers that are prepared to do that... - If not, then it is Officers like yourselves who are disallowing those in the service to be able to get the exposure and experience they deserve... The day will come that there isn't an officer about and like I said before, the firefighters will stand round shrugging their shoulders..
- Like I said, if you did, then disreguard my second comment.. :-)
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As an OIC,you also have to be a team player and not one that loves to belt out the orders,remember a good OIC is only as good as the men/women that have respect for him/her. Just because you have a yellow or red hat does not mean you sit back and watch your crew work,get in and help....
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I'd have to disagree Bill.... when you take on the role of OIC, you need to stand back & watch your crew, watch & manage the overall situation....being the OIC doesn't preclude you from helping your crew if they are struggling, but if you get too involved in doing the work with your crew, you risk loosing the big picture view, which can potentially be very dangerous.
In my book, the role of the OIC will vary to a certain degree, depending on how big the incident / how many resources are involved.
The OIC is responsible for assessing the situation, (including risks to the crew), planning a course of action, organising / directing the crew to carry out that plan give sitreps, calling in additional resources as required, liaise with other crews / services as required....
Having a good crew makes the job easier, in that you don't have to give step by step instructions to your crew...and leaves more time to do all the other things an OIC needs to do!!
With a simple incident, it looks like an OIC doesn't have to do much at all, but in whether people realise it or not, this above process is what actually occurs....
Pip
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Good point Pipster, as OIC you have to be slightly detached from the hands on work and consentrate on your role as incident controller or as an OIC of a RCR appliance as the "Rescue Officer" for all the reasons Pipster listed.
The hands on between you and your crew is your SNR F/F in that role they should have a greater understanding of your action plan relayed to your crew and a higher level of skills than your fire fighters to make sure it happens.
But I do agree with the comment of some Officers just belting out instructions like a power control freak makes you look unprofessional and like you have really not got a grip on what your doing. Plus it just destroys morale.
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To start with I think people are getting confused between an OIC (officer in charge) and an IC (Incident controller). The IC usually starts off as an OIC, but a OIC is not necessarily an IC.
Now Evac what are the skills and training required to be a OIC? The CFS has (only recently) had a strike team leaders course and a sector commanders course. To my knowledge there are no OIC courses. The officer/leadership courses have had very little to do with managing an incident and the AIIMS course has removed any practical incident management. So please do tell me about any CFS course and where this skill comes from to be an OIC? (I don't even think there is a duty of care course for fire fighters either)
Secondly you will be hung and dried if something goes wrong regardless of your perceived skill or this factious training. In fact the more perceived skill you have the more you will be hung out to dry as the legal system CAN have it both ways.
Thirdly by not rolling an appliance (with a crew but no "officer") someone also has to have made the decision not to roll. This could just as likely get people hung and dried.
Your having a slightly holier then thou approach to this. That being that one day you cant, then the next day you can as you have the skill and training (that you have magically gained somehow or from a factious course). I cant speak for everyone here but most people I know think to themselves after a call that it could have been done slightly better of differently. That is, as time goes by people get more experience and learn. Shock horror! people progressively learn. They aren't perfect they make mistakes and with hindsight they would have done something differently. So I think getting stuck in and giving it your best (fake it till you make it, and taking responsibility for your best effort) is a good approach to a skill that is so esoteric and practically gained.
As for becoming an officer well we all know the politics that exist in some brigades. Brown nosing and faking it can, and does, cut the mustard. Particularly when the brigade is a young crowd.
PS SAFF has nothing to do with portraying the Emergency services in a good light.
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Thirdly by not rolling an appliance (with a crew but no "officer") someone also has to have made the decision not to roll. This could just as likely get people hung and dried.
Default/Upgrade the incident to next nearest brigade. simple easy way to not get hung and dried ;).
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Pip, I agree with you but there are times as the OIC that you should and could help your crew if they are busy or need help,give them a hand then get back to being the OIC....
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I agree Bill...as an Officer, you shouldn't just stand back, and let your crew struggle along - eg you give someone a hand dragging a hose, as everyone else is busy doing something else...but you have to be careful not to get too tied up doing crew work, and miss what you should be seeing....
If you have to constantly do the hands on stuff, then you either need to learn to stand back & put your hands in your pocket, and do the OIC job, OR you need more crew to assist, if you don't have enough!!
Pip
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I found it hard last night at a MVA as i was the OIC I had to stand back but at the same time I wanted to be in there helping the team.....
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And that was what I found the hardest when I became an officer - stand back, put your hands in your pockets, and watch....
Pip
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Okay, before this whole thing gets any more heated I think i should point out that my other post (the Stop press one) was a bit of sarcasm. My captain really isnt a bad person and I was just messing around. it was meant to be more of an inside joke with him and a couple of others but it kinda backfired. Yeah, rescuehazmat he didnt really say that.
back to convo now.
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Probie, I would like you to know, that due to the "sarcastic" post, I am going to make the following statement.
I openly apologise for the comment (which was worded poorly on my part) in regards to your captain. I, believing I was sticking up for you as a younger member who 'seemed' to have been very unfairly and un-justly done by, had typed my post in your defence in a way which read very poorly. A post which was only written in an attempt to stick up for you as a member of the service which you represent. For this I apologise to the member which the post was slightly directed too.. Now, knowing more of the story, I will remove my post.
May I add, that maybe when posts are sarcastic or "not meant" in the future, it is made well known. - As this is a perfect example of not being able to understand ones 'sarcasm/emotion/intent' etc).
Again, my sincere apologies.
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Probie, I would like you to know, that due to the "sarcastic" post, I am going to make the following statement.
I openly apologise for the comment (which was worded poorly on my part) in regards to your captain. I, believing I was sticking up for you as a younger member who 'seemed' to have been very unfairly and un-justly done by, had typed my post in your defence in a way which read very poorly. A post which was only written in an attempt to stick up for you as a member of the service which you represent. For this I apologise to the member which the post was slightly directed too.. Now, knowing more of the story, I will remove my post.
May I add, that maybe when posts are sarcastic or "not meant" in the future, it is made well known. - As this is a perfect example of not being able to understand ones 'sarcasm/emotion/intent' etc).
Again, my sincere apologies.
I appreciate you sticking up for me rescuehazmat. Even though it wasn't needed, thankyou.
Heres a lesson people, NEVER use sacrasm in text based conversations. IT DOESN'T END WELL
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OK is everyone :-D now :-P