SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: bittenyakka on August 02, 2007, 07:10:30 PM
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This was in the Hills Courier on the 1/8/07
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"The Minister said there was no plan to bring the MFS to Stirling and Mount Barker in the short or medium term"
Hahahahahaha, Yes believe what the minister said..........
Just like she said to myself and Seaford's LT4 in person that there would be no MFS station at Seaford in the next 2 years......
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After the email I got from the minister sounds like she is the one passing the buck/blame....
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The difference is Mt Barker can get 2 appliances out the door...
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The difference is Mt Barker can get 2 appliances out the door...
Whereas some outer MFS retained stations now get CFS to respond to cover their shortfall :roll:
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Yes they do, but remember that some of these MFS stations only have 1 appliance.. Not to mention some of the towns that have CFS and MFS shoudlnt have. There is simply not the workload or the people to support both services not to mention the towns that have SES who are RCR.
Not that I am bagging the SES but if you have a small town with all of these services and they all struggle for crew, how can any of them respond urgently.
We heard some years ago when ESAU first started that duplication would be eliminated, we are all still waiting for this to happen.
Regional MFS stations participate in a competition drill in their own station and have their facilities inspected and ranked. One of these stations was not even able to participate in that this year.
Things need to change.
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It is a global thing where times have changed and now both members of family work to pay the mortgage etc.
Towns and centres that had an abundance of members now struggle to get a crew some days,and we are not alone on that.
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It does make you wonder, with all the bad press about the cfs, why would any one put there hand up to voulenteer, (yes i know to help the community. but seriously what sort of nutters are we to do give something to the community when the government has forgotten a important fact. we cant afford to replace all vollies with paid staff..... whats that advert over 50% of australians volunteer.... i volunteer for differnt organisations to repay what has been done for me and in the hopes some one will be there when i need help again. We all want things for free but the government have to wath they dont get what they wish for....
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I think the point the Barker boys have been trying to make for a few years now is why bother doing the job if you get no support from the region or cfs management....
How can you take a heavy pumper away from an area only growing in size and urban call rate.???
Why not give them another rural truck like they wanted to support the rural area, but leave them with 2 Urban appliances to support the urban sprawl???
If you ain't gonna do this why do the job at all, 2nd rate trucks, 2nd rate fire service.
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I think the point the Barker boys have been trying to make for a few years now is why bother doing the job if you get no support from the region or cfs management....
How can you take a heavy pumper away from an area only growing in size and urban call rate.???
Why not give them another rural truck like they wanted to support the rural area, but leave them with 2 Urban appliances to support the urban sprawl???
If you ain't gonna do this why do the job at all, 2nd rate trucks, 2nd rate fire service.
Marry me.. :-P
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Woo woo, maybe you can use Mt Barkers trucks for wedding cars...
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smallflame you need help... :?
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Woo woo, maybe you can use Mt Barkers trucks for wedding cars...
CFS trucks in weddings.. - Seen that before.. :lol:
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Jeez, the controversy. My sense of humour is sadly wasted :cry:
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Jeez, the controversy. My sense of humour is sadly wasted :cry:
Or your reputation :-P
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cmon guys dont put out smallflame haha pun intended
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Jeez, the controversy. My sense of humour is sadly wasted :cry:
Or your reputation :-P
Which reputation? The obnoxious, the opinionated, or the loud?
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Jeez, the controversy. My sense of humour is sadly wasted :cry:
Or your reputation :-P
Which reputation? The obnoxious, the opinionated, or the loud?
Are they the only choices we have?
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Jeez, the controversy. My sense of humour is sadly wasted :cry:
Or your reputation :-P
Which reputation? The obnoxious, the opinionated, or the loud?
So did he say YES :lol:
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Im lost....
Maybe back to the courier article?
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I will agree with that... Now back to regular programming...
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Sadly, the same old argument holds true. There is no way in hell that CFS can guarantee a response to any emergency at anytime. That is merely how a volunteer organisation works.
I know that the special people from Mt. Barker will no doubt yell, scream, hoot and holler that they can get two trucks out the door, therefore they deserve to remain volunteer, but if they really worried about the community, they would be supportive of a move to have full-time SAMFS staffed stations in their area. Keep in mind, by the time they get to the station itself, a full time station would already be on the road...
The same thing holds true in all built up urban areas, Mt. Barker, Seaford, Mt. Lofty Group. Nothing can guarantee service like stations staffed 24/7.
Don't get me wrong, I love the SACFS angle on things, but at some point we all have to think out a bit further than just ourselves.
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Lofty group Needs CFS solely because if there is a situation along the lines of another ash wednesday or Canberra in the hills then the fact that there is so many stations so close means there is a large number of vehicles in that area. if MFS move in to Stirling then there might be 1 mabey 2 scanias. So even if they only have 34s there will still be CFS in Lofty area.
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Mate, you do realise that fire services the country and world over resource their stations with appliances appropriate to the risks that that station will face. You do realise that SAMFS run with more than just GP Pumps, which happen to be a Scania build? They run 14s, tankers and a whole heap of other appliances more than just 'Scanias'.
No-one is suggesting that the CFS will dissapear, merely that in certain areas it need to be looked at that for your urban response, you have a 24/7 staffed station. Mind you, with a single fire service, running both volley and permo services you could fix this problem no worries.
Look at how some of the other states run their services, especially look at the roles of the bushfire brigades in states such as QLD and NSW.
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if they can get out the door with two appliances and meet the currant SFEC and get there in the time frame that is required then so be it....The thing that the community or the state could not afford is more paid station and lets face it what would paid staff do all day at barker or stirling sit and watch TV all day or just drive around town..... Lets face it when there is a large job in the hills the MFS are always there to help local crews in asset protection..... Keep the good work up barker/stirling and stand up for your right as a volunteer to provide a service that is FREE to the community and one that encourages locals to join and provide support to their community...
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Now, that's a good idea - let's replace all the busy CFS stations with 1 MFS appliance & full time crew. Now we can guarantee an immediate 1 appliance response to all calls. Bad luck if we need two or more appliances - oh well, we'll just have to call the next MFS station along the way. Pity they are 15 minutes drive away, when the next door CFS brigade is only 4 minutes away, and has a truck on the road in 4 minutes....
What happens when there is a COQ, when the only MFS appliance in the former CFS station is called into the city for a change of quarters....who then covers them....at least in the current situation, if an appliance goes for the busy stations, there is another option, should a call out occur in the immediate area.
And, if we replaced all of the busy CFS brigades with an MFS station, crew & appliance, who is going to pay for it? I doubt the Government could realistically fund that many new set ups across the state.
Should another "bad" fire day occur (and there is no doubt, it will, sometime) if one MFS crew were there, it is only one crew. On a really bad fire day, I have found many CFS volunteers take the day off from work, or work from home, or sneak out early from work, or stay around home, and put off a job until tomorrow, - whatever they can, just to be around...so if a fire gets started, there are enough crew to crew all of the appliances in those busy brigades -even on a weekday...
On Black Tuesday, my brigade put out a page for members to respond to the station, priority 2, for active standby...in 4 minutes, there were 9 people there, on a weekday, lunchtime...more followed shortly after....I know many other brigades were in a similar position...
I think to simply say put 1 MFS crew into the busy CFS area, so that we can always guarantee a response, is taking a very simplistic, and unrealistic view - the replacing of CFS Volunteers, with a paid MFS crew, is far more complex problem, than just substituting crews.
Pip
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Well said pip..........
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Its got nothing to do with single one for one swap. Its not been suggested that you replace entire groups with a single SAMFS appliance and crew, nor has it been suggested that SACFS crews would not be there when required by SAMFS.
Brigades may meet the standard for response times, which is all well and good, but there are two standards written, one for Professional services and one for Volunteer services. They are very differing standards, allowing for the fact that most vollies need to drive to the station first, then get the appliance on the road.
Pip, by the same token of response times, what happens when the first station is turned out, and has to default to the next station... 4 minutes away and can get a truck out the door in 4 minutes, thats another 8 minutes on top of all other times associated with the initial response.
I was merely suggesting that a full time crew (note: not necessarily only a single pump) is able to get to the job and get to work much faster than most volunteer brigades. They can also guarantee an RCR crew when needed, a full compliment of CABA and HAZMAT trained personnel when needed.
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The problem is Pip that no one is saying replace CFS with MFS.
People are just saying that we add another level of protection. CFS still remains, and will still have a job. THe problem is that some people in CFS want to protect their organisation more than they want to protect the community.
The problem is that the reason why there is so much scepticism around new stations and service models is because there is so much patch protection and turf wars and empire building going on.
If MFS move into an area previously covered by CFS all I care about is 'is the community getting a serrvice' and in that case they get an extra service, MFS plus CFS.
The problem is that many people see this whole debate as CFSvMFS. It isnt.
It shouldnt be that way. If they decide to put an MFS station somewhere it just means there is more, it doesnt mean the CFS wont be working, cause as Pip pointed out there will still be a need for more than one appliance.
And if volunteers have to do less to protect the community because the Govt has realised there is a need for a paid service then isnt that a good thing? Or again is it not about the community and more about the organisation?
I think that when we get to the point where all this empire building turf war crap is over we willbe able to examine a decent service model. And sad as it is to say - its our fault. Because everytime someone talks about it the old cackles get up and people go into 'protect the organisation' mode and in the long term this does nothing to 'protect the community'.
There are some areas where there is a need for MFS presence where there isnt one now. But I am sure if the Govt tried to put one there there would be hell. Eg Seaford.
The CFS need to realise we are a volunteer service and we are never going to be given paid fire fighters. The VFBA need to realise its not their job to advocate for paid fire fighters - cause they get paid to advocate for the volunteers - not the CFS as an organisation!!!!!!!
The MFS need to realise they are not replacing CFS when move into an area they are just adding a level of protection and altering the service delivery model. When we can get both MFS and CFS accepting their role and not trying to step on the toes of the other and work together then we might have some progress.
AJ
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Some good points.
I also agree with AJ in regards to this statement.. People are just saying that we add another level of protection. CFS still remains, and will still have a job. THe problem is that some people in CFS want to protect their organisation more than they want to protect the community.
I put an onus on the word SOME. - But I agree.
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Volunteers are the lifeblood of our community and we must receive the support from the very organisation we are working for.
If the SFEC says we are required the volunteers will stay until the end :evil:
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Ive got no beef with MFS taking over if thats what is required to provide an adequate service to the community as that is why we are all here.
What we need to establish is a serviceable median between paid and volunteer station. As it has been said we can not afford to have paid stations all over the place but there also needs to be a point at which the work load is to big for the vollies and maybe too much risk. The CFS can provide an urban service as good as MFS but not with our current appliances.
If Mt Barker is at that stage then i dont see why a full time service should not be implemented. But why cant vollies and paid staff work out of one station? As it is not feasible to completely disband Mt Barker CFS and replace them with one or two MFS appliances.
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There are some areas where there is a need for MFS presence where there isn't one now. But I am sure if the Govt tried to put one there there would be filtered. Eg Seaford.
The problem isn't about MFS moving to Seaford, cause this was always going to happen, its the way the process happened when the moved was confirmed thats the problem, hence the whole nature of this forum, lack of communication from HQ/REG.
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Cut a long story short Seaford got shafted by the very organisation that they represent :mrgreen:
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The CFS can provide an urban service as good as MFS but not with our current appliances.
In terms of response times, appliance capabilities, training and quality of crew, CFS can simply not compete with SAMFS for Urban response.
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I know I have asked this before but why cant we have a staff/volunteer station like other state's have?? You would not need a full crew but 3 paid staff during the day and have volunteer back up then at night go back to full volunteer call outs.Works in other state's and the UFU back it....... I guess the big issue is that we need to have consultation and the UFU needs to step back and let the CFS/MFS come to a better system that provides better protection to the community but also allows Volunteers to still be involved in their local community fire service.
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Actually I dont think it is the UFU that needs to step back is the VFBA - and I am a CFS Member
The VFBA are too busy trying to advocate for paid CFS fire to boot the CFS as an organisation.
SAFECOM have made it clear there will not be paid CFS firefighters.
So they VFBA need to step back and workj out a way to have integrated stations with paid MFS fire fifghters and volunteers - perhaps a joint station.
So rather than protecting and trying to boost their patch we actually need less of the attempts at empire building from the people whou are supposed to represent us.
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The CFS can provide an urban service as good as MFS but not with our current appliances.
In terms of response times, appliance capabilities, training and quality of crew, CFS can simply not compete with SAMFS for Urban response.
All correct except maybe training. As far as im concerned MFS/CFS training in Urban firefighting is pretty much the same.
Intergrated stations must be the way of the future. Its the most efficient way to provide a fire service to the community.
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So where has the VFBA been offering to help the paid staff?? I have not read or heard any of this and I have been getting emails from the VFBA that support Volunteers not the paid staff.....
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The CFS can provide an urban service as good as MFS but not with our current appliances.
In terms of response times, appliance capabilities, training and quality of crew, CFS can simply not compete with SAMFS for Urban response.
I don't intend to debate that comment, (which I disagree with on many counts...) other than to say the bulk (almost all? - maybe all?) of the busy CFS stations have a major rural area to cover - including rural / urban interface...
Pip
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Pip, you don't seem to understand that no-one is saying that if SAMFS move into an area that SACFS currently covers then you'll lose multiple stations and multiple appliances and the end of SACFS would be coming.
Lets say, for example, SAMFS move into Heysen group. They set up a station at Mt. Barker housing a GP Pump and a Telesquirt. Pretty basic set up for a mix of domestic/industrial buildings as well as being primary rescue for the area. Mt Barker CFS then keep a Pumper(with some rescue capability eg: RIK) and a 34/34P rural appliance. Other brigades in the area stay the same. All this does is increase the level of service provided to the community and has little impact on the surrounding brigades. SACFS can still handle rural jobs, and still backs up SAMFS for all your urban needs.
You seem to be of the opinion that entire groups would be replaced by a single appliance SAMFS station..?
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6793264 - I was replying to one of your earlier posts, in which you stated the following:
"The same thing holds true in all built up urban areas, Mt. Barker, Seaford, Mt. Lofty Group. Nothing can guarantee service like stations staffed 24/7."
My understanding of that is that you suggest that these brigades / Groups can't provide a guaranteed service, and from that, a suggestion that a paid crew replace them
You went on to say in further posts :
"I was merely suggesting that a full time crew (note: not necessarily only a single pump) is able to get to the job and get to work much faster than most volunteer brigades."
So isn't that replacing a CFS crew?
In reading your last posting, I think it shows a lack of understanding about what actually motivates many volunteers to be part of the CFS
You said " SACFS can still handle rural jobs and still back up MFS for all your urban needs" - so CFS are put back to not a lot more than a rural services who sometimes are allowed to play in the urban area.....?
I also think it is naive to think that all the current volunteers will automatically stay around, should their brigade be replaced by an MFS Station - many of them may well, but I suspect some wouldn't
Pip
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Lets say, for example, SAMFS move into Heysen group. They set up a station at Mt. Barker housing a GP Pump and a Telesquirt. Pretty basic set up for a mix of domestic/industrial buildings as well as being primary rescue for the area. Mt Barker CFS then keep a Pumper(with some rescue capability eg: RIK) and a 34/34P rural appliance. Other brigades in the area stay the same. All this does is increase the level of service provided to the community and has little impact on the surrounding brigades. SACFS can still handle rural jobs, and still backs up SAMFS for all your urban needs.
Isnt this duplicating resources? Especially where you say Barker keep a Pump, like posted in previous threads? Oh i forgot, if you put the MFS in its all for the better but if it's a CFS brigade there it's a duplication of services.
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Pip, you don't seem to understand that no-one is saying that if SAMFS move into an area that SACFS currently covers then you'll lose multiple stations and multiple appliances and the end of SACFS would be coming.
yay!!!! lets duplicate more resources....
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A town that will grow to the size of Mt. Barker and that has no brigade out to areas like Wistow certainly needs more than a single pump and a telesquirt to cover it properly. It's not a duplication of resources when you look at the number of persons within the area they are covering.
All you hear from most vollies is how they want to serve the community and put something back into it. One would think that they would be more supportive of a move to provide better protection to their community, and that still gives them a hands on role.
Pip, you seem to think that the two services cannot exist together in the one area and work together for a better outcome for the community they serve. It doesn't have to be one or the other, they can both exist in the one area. I can understand you may not quite realise this from an East Torrens point of view, where a SAMFS station probably would handle the workload of multiple brigades rather easily, but its different in other areas of the state.
Crank, tell me, are all SACFS personel rescue, CABA and Hazmat trained... no.
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Im "for" MFS being in heavily developed area's like Mt Barker. BUT not replacement, leaving the volunteers having to find sumthing else to do.
an MFS in Mt Barker would change the resourcing arrangements of surrounding brigades as well...perhaps even improving them. Mt Barker CFS would be a support/Rural brigade, while probably still having 125~ calls a year, which in the mind of all volunteers is a very comfortable number of callouts. It would relieve the pressure that volunteering with the CFS gives upon the persons work and family life.
MFS mt barker should have an Pumper and Skyjet since the nearest Aerial Resource is 30 minutes away, and the recent/upcoming multistory developments.
CFS mt barker would support the MFS and respond to Rural Callouts with perhaps a 24 and 24P. While the current CFS mt barker pumper would move to a nearby brigade.
Not a duplication, but a supportive rural orientated shift in roles done by the CFS.
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6793264 Do you prefer urban or rural jobs? If yo u are a permo i would guess you must like the urban work a lot. Many CFS members are like that and these days CFS is not a bushfire brigade it is a service that is capable of handling many emergency's and i believe that less that one third of CFS jobs last year where bushfires.
the thing is in the great scheme of things if CFS brigades are capable of looking after their patch then let them do it and put the money into other areas that need it. Like or Health or education departments which altho are good can use any money they get
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MFS Mt Barker should have an Pumper and Skyjet since the nearest Aerial Resource is 30 minutes away, and the recent/upcoming multistory developments
Simple solution give Mt Barker CFS a Skyjet as they can get two appliances out the door.It will only be a matter of time before CFS need to get some aerial appliances to cover the increased urban and industrial risks in CFS area.
Food for thought CFA has 58,000 volunteers and 1200 CFA brigades,not that Adelaide has the same population,but majority of those are volunteer stations.
Instead of being filtered over and taking it lying down the volunteers of the communities they serve and protect still have something worth fighting for. :evil:
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As i understand it, Seaford still have not been told where they will fit in when MFS move in. Just a tad annoying, an email was sent about the options two of them included shutting Seaford down Nice HUH!!! Also out of curiosity the dennis didnt cope in mt barker, how will the mfs appliances go? At a recent hazmat incident with the MFS. (NB:We Did work well with them) there one gadget didnt help, and they didnt exactly follow any hazmat protocols, both MFS and CFS should have tapped it up and waited for a hazmat brigade but both services sent ba operators in with the mfs officer walking in the part we had taped of with no protection. so you cant garentee they can handle hazmat better than cfs. and threats have been made of Replacing seaford
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Also out of curiosity the dennis didnt cope in mt barker, how will the mfs appliances go?
so your comparing Dennis a 15 or so year old appliance to new MFS appliances?
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So where has the VFBA been offering to help the paid staff?? I have not read or heard any of this and I have been getting emails from the VFBA that support Volunteers not the paid staff.....
The VFBA exec officer was on radio saying that they wanted paid fire fighters. Thats where.
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you're still flogging that dead horse I see. You ranted on the sacfs yahoo group about the VFBA and had several VFBA people reply offering to contact you to explain it all but obviously you didn't take them up. The VFBA published the transcripts from the radio interviews so you can read for yourself exactly what was said, if you wanted to know the facts of course.
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Crank, tell me, are all SACFS personel rescue, CABA and Hazmat trained... no.
You werent talking about quantity trained. you were talking about quality.
I was referring to training and in your last comment you were referring to quality of crew.
You Said "In terms of response times, appliance capabilities, training and quality of crew, CFS can simply not compete with SAMFS for Urban response."
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Also out of curiosity the Dennis didnt cope in Mt Barker,how will the MFS appliances go? (Quote)
Clarify why it did'nt cope :?
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It coped fine when it worked, had nothing to do with the type of truck it was.
Bums on seats for CFS doesn't mean they are actually trained to tackle any job they respond to, so MFS have that advantage from the get go. Not 1 CFS member on this forum can tell me that they can garuntee they can get 4 BA to every call, or RCR or Hazmat, just in case no one has realised, we are volly's !!!!!!!
IF I want to go to the movies or out to tea, I am going, if 10 others do the same thing then all of a suden we are in trouble, thats how it is. You add that scenario to a growing urban area, which equals more calls, then all of a sudden the community is at risk. No matter how many B shifts, or whatever you run. There is still no obligation to respond.
But I will still keep responding when the pager goes and I am home.
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Attention, attention, Pumper 1B, Ladders 1, Respond to reports of common sense issuing from a member of Heysen group...
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Very interesting...MFB right?
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Bleh, one tongue in cheek comment and the mud starts flying :(
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hehe sorry :wink:
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I did not have time to read all but have now thanks.