SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: firegun on August 25, 2009, 03:02:24 PM
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SCC: *CFSRES TASK NO 55. RESPOND TREE DOWN. CASTERTON ROAD PENOLA 5277. ON MAIN RD. SAPOL MT. GAMBIER. P1. BWN. SES Bordertown Response
interesting response. They are at least 100k away from Penola.
There would be 40+ CFS brigades closer, including Penola who would do this job many times a year.
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thats SES for you.
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took a while, finally got the right brigade paged for the tree job at Penola
(perhaps couldnt wait 90 min for them to turn up)
some jobs have come in closer to home
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I wonder if theres any other place on earth that has three set's of response SOP's for Fire/Rescue for the same location??
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Not sure about the question you pose Zippy - but it would be close :wink: I'm pretty sure that SCC can't turnout none SES units (I remember being despatched to Swan Reach once during a major storm event - until I pointed out to SCC how far away that was from Berri). The unit DO would have informed SCC about the distance & to use closer resources. Sadly it is the stupid system that has been set up in SA - initially by the councils to save money & latter carried on by state government for political reasons. If every council area had to raise at least one SES unit & for rural/ remote locations one rural fire unit then this wouldn't keep coming up! And as the lead agency for storm & flood SES needs to be able to control all resources during such events!
cheers (we had 104 kmph winds & not one job!)
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Yeah lets set up an SES and CFS in every rural area........who needs 2 and a Half men when you can read this crap.
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And as the lead agency for storm & flood SES needs to be able to control all resources during such events!
cheers (we had 104 kmph winds & not one job!)
ahhh yes....its aaaaaalllll about control isnt it
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Why isn't it as simple as the nearest & most appropriate resource is dispatched?
Oh yeah, that's what we're supposed to have...but it would appear that current policy, and what actually happens are two different things!!
Pip
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Quite correct Pip - so why doesn't it work? Because despite all of the talk, each of the services still doesn't quite know what the others have & everone still wants to protect their own little empire - don't need the others!"Control is about the ability to despatch whatever appropriate & closest resources (regardless of service) not command which stays with the parent service! I know during a major wildfire when there are multiple agencies involved, CFS has control of all of those assets while the parent service (SAMFS/SASES) commands its own assets. Why is this concept so hard for people to grasp when it is the other way around?
If a town of 400 people can have a fire service, a rescue service & a storm/flood service, why can't it happen elswhere?
I am constantly amazed by the comments that appear everytime a storm/flood event occurs in SA & the crap about closest resource - the theory is correct but in practice hard to achieve if the agency responsible for the response has one hand tied behind it's back by interservice politics! And it is hard to use the most appropriate resource when everyone has different equipment levels/types, levels of training etc. Just to remind everyone again the State emergency service has legislative responsibilty for this task in every state (regardless of FESA, EMQ, SAFECOM)! filtered it's not hard. Finally why is it in other states the volunteer base is expanding while in SA it's shrinking? Maybe because we are demanding too much. On that note bye 4 now :-)
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Bring on SACAD....then a new Integrated Control Centre perhaps...where there would be a single set of Response procedures ONLY.
An Idea, SES dont jump on me
1st Response to a Tree down (Assessing Brigade): Closest CFS..if SES arent closest.
2nd response (Assisting Brigade): Next Closest CFS or SES.
2nd Response (Specialist Brigade): Closest Specialised SES.
3rd Response (Additional Resources): Next Closest CFS or Specialist SES.
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Because most of us are smart enough to know that their is no point having stupdily expensive vehicles sitting there most of the time, most people struggle to crew 1 vehicle, let alone half a dozen.
Think about it, you just said yourself people are sick of having to much put on them, so why join half a dozen different services.
99% of the time the jobs are cutting up tree's and tarping, with the odd sandbagging job.
Can't remember a real full on USAR style job happened, if ever.
Anytime ropes are mentioned the job ends up being done by state staff...you know what I mean..... :-P
It annoyed the hell out of me yesterday when the SCC were pumping out jobs flat out to units that were 50+ kms away.
And you wanna cane MFS comms, they have to follow the same stupid rules.
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i think the amount of jobs that Lobethal CFS/SES defaulted amounted to roughly 20???
Id hate being paged at 1am, for a call in Eden Valley...
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The system we have now is excellent, why would you bother local volunteers with the correct equipment and training to go to local events, when we can call in other volunteers from miles and miles away. :wink:
Bugger the public "We pay our taxes and levies and waa waa waa" you can just hear it now!
"WAKE UP SERVICES" get over protecting your duties and patch and serve the friggin public properly......FARKKK this shitte is wrong!
Can anyone of you think of any rational friggin reason for not using the closest most appropriate resource? If you can think of one, perhaps take a Blooody good look at yourself and ask whether you are still in it for the right reasons! :evil: and if you still think its valid.
Then put your reasons up here if you think they are still noble and let the masses give you another perhaps reasoned perspective! and maybe a reality friggin check :x put "Mr Angry" in here coz I couldnt find "Mr Can O Whooparsee"
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"Our Chainsaws are Diamond Tipped?" :P:P:P
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Excellent response Jaff & pumprescue as per normal - so HQ/Comms know what resources are located at each brigade & those personnel have had adequate training to deal with the response.
Having worked with CFS & MFS crews on major storm damage operations, & being part of the incident management team on at least one, I couldn't find out who had a chainsaw, work at height equipment, training in work at height, storm damage ops etc, without asking each crew individually. Whilst I agree with your sentiments pumprescue, until that information is available to Incident managers (where ever they are located)& state operations centres, then how the filtered are you supposed to know "the closest appropriate resource?". I do know form bitter experience the wide variation of what is carried on fire appliances, including whether or not the chainsaw is a) adequate b) operational. And while we are at it Jaff Why would a certain fire service reject the offer of pumps (including floatation) & boats, then turn around and order more floation pumps & jeez it would be great to have a boat in the same area! So its got filtered all to do with turf protection - more to do with standardisation across the service in both equipment & training. So back to your original point - totally agree with closest appropraite response don't give a filtered about what color it is as long as it is appropriate & you don't know that without intel :wink: By the way most people have nil problem with wearing more than one hat if they want to & are able to.
cheers & have a good one
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I don't have an issue with SES coming to jobs, but I do have an issue with jobs being dispatched when people have to drive past multiple other services to get to them.
Zippy, your Lobethal example is perfect, anything outside of the Lobethal/Charleston area was sent to the local fire service. You just wonder why, they seem to only have the "SES" tag to get the extra gear CFS don't provide. So, one has to ask, why do we persist with this.
If you ask some people, Noarlunga is the only SES unit capable of doing anything above the level of a search/storm damage :-P
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If the chainsaw doesnt work theres always an axe or wood splitter if both are sharp enough :lol:
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There are some in SES who asked the same question :wink: And I think they have got "smart" why keep fighting an organisation who won't give you the gear or training when another will! :-)
Pumprescue - only those who are 1)from Noarlunga b) have a history with that unit or c) have no idea on what goes on outside of Adelaide :wink:
Despite everything I said above, I totally agree with what you are saying - as long as the right criteria is used, as per previous comments.
I'm just not sure how this issue can be fixed, other than my previous suggested solution (which met with such stong support :wink: ). Keeping in mind Duty of care, OHS & other mandated requirements! So I think all I can say, the problem really lays with those who run your collective organisations - not the troops on the ground. And if I was the boss of the SES unit involved in this particular case, I would have got more details & recommended sending the closest CFS unit with a chainsaw if that was all that was required (& stayed home)- done it before several time in fact e.g. flooding road, need a big pump - call on the closest fire unit. After all everyone knows they have the biggest hoses! :wink:
ON THAT NOTE HAVE A GOOD NITE :-D
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We certainly can't assume that SES crews have the training & equipment. A SES unit attended a call today for a tree down, completely blocking a road (albeit a minor one).
Three SES members attended, none of whom had a chainsaw ticket, so they started cutting up the tree with bow saws. Some time later, the two nearest CFS brigades were called...who had chainsaws & trained operators....
So who knows who has the right gear / training etc.... isn't that what BOMS, (and eventually SACAD) are supposed to tell you?
But, after 14 months of the interim CRD, we still have inappropriate data in BOMS, countless CRD issues forms submitted (I can just about recite the whole form, I've been filling in so many) and the promise of SACAD to save the world..... and still the wrong resource is sent....
Pip
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If the chainsaw doesnt work theres always an axe or wood splitter if both are sharp enough :lol:
Robert you could use them to cut down that tree in your backyard and get your kite back! :wink:
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Its probably time for a Internal CFS Referendum...
"Do we support the mass alteration of MFS Comcens Response Data for CFS Responses...and SES".
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whenever we have these threads appear.....its always one name that appears to be stoking the fire.....i wonder why he bothers so much living in another place :?
As for me....i dont much care how many tree jobs or roof jobs the SES gets, bring them on I say.....last thing i feel like doing is getting out of my nice warm bed at stupid o'clock in the rain for some dickheads tree that they were too lazy to trim, or too cheap to pay to be removed. Same for storm damage.......climb over all the rooves u like boys....i'll happily watch from the bottom. I'm much happier NOT burning the relationships my members have with their employers to be released for callouts on parks and gardens stuff
Why is it like it is?....it's called Activity Based Funding.....don't do the jobs, dont get the money....and CFS is just the same....watch ur Brigade/Group funding drop if u fall below 100 calls in a year.
My only irk in the whole thing is watching a Unit with tens of thousands of dollars of hydraulic rescue equipment, supposedly for the Adelaide 9/11 event.....that spend their time cutting up cars practising vehicle rescue, with 3 MFS/CFS Rescue Brigades all around them..... By all means buy the biggest, bestest and brightest chainsaws and tarps.......and leave the other stuff to the people who do it for real.
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I only care when they are driving long distances for no reason.
Yeah, talk about annoying with the equipment dished out for the "9/11" event. to think of all that gear sitting there doing nothing that could be in use, especially when you have CFS and SES RCR units doing it tough with bare essentials, and no airbags and things like that.
Ahhh, SA, the wannabe state, that seems to have no idea.
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It is sometimes quite amusing reading everyone statements about empires, training levels, conspiracy theories, etc. I am glad I was delayed in reading this thread due to callouts so I get a great laugh....
Quite simply the interim database that is used is limited in its functionality. This has been happening for a few years now while the long long awaited SACAD is built has the replacement.
The database does not have all of the non-SES details. So it is left to the local Unit or RDO to allocate taskings to other local resources using local knowledge.
Yes, this takes longer and a dual dispatch process. But I would prefer dollars spent on new equipment, training, etc for front-line volunteers. I understand the database will not be upgraded because SACAD be the replacment (when it eventually arrives).
Remember that all 000 calls go via Adelaide Fire with the BOMS database. So this is designed for storm damage response (whihc many people on this forum think is nothing anyway).
SES like CFS, have limited financial resources..
*** My personal knowledge only & not ofofficial from SES ***
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SES Priority code posting withdrawn 28/8. Not fully accurate.
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Its probably time for a Internal CFS Referendum...
"Do we support the mass alteration of MFS Comcens Response Data for CFS Responses...and SES".
That was at the start of the SACAD project well before CFS CRD moved to Adelaide Fire.....can BOMS support all that data or is it waiting for SACAD ? ...I suspect the later....so whay redo the same work that has been requested before :?
Unless the wrong data was given or the data is not being updated continuously....then rubbish will get rubbish out
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Its probably time for a Internal CFS Referendum...
"Do we support the mass alteration of MFS Comcens Response Data for CFS Responses...and SES".
Wasn't that done at the start of the SACAD project well before CFS CRD moved to Adelaide Fire ?
Can BOMS support all that data or is it waiting for SACAD ? ...I suspect the later.
So why redo the same work that has been requested before :?
Unless the wrong data was given or the data is not being updated continuously....then rubbish will get rubbish out
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It is sometimes quite amusing reading everyone statements about empires, training levels, conspiracy theories, etc. I am glad I was delayed in reading this thread due to callouts so I get a great laugh....
*** My personal knowledge only & not ofofficial from SES ***
sigh!......SACAD....SACAD, where for art thou SACAD!
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SACAD is in the In-Tray....piled under all the OHS work...
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Simple answer for you crash - own property in SA (in fact it is still my residential address), car registered in SA, 2 of my kids live in SA, as well as my girl friend, my company owns extensive plants in SA & I pay ESL. I spend one week a month "back home" & have job responsibilities there which include Emergency management. I also have friends who have dedicated over 25 years of their life to the service which some of you like to slander on a regular basis. Finally after doing "one or two" years of service myself (actually a few more than that :wink: ) & watching what was once good/great slowly but surely fade away, & knowing what it could be if people really cared I get a bit excited when I see another service which by its own admission (including people on this site) isn't perfect bagging SESSA. So no mate its not stiring - it is putting an alternative view point across! now I'm sorry if you don't appreciate that or can't see my reasons why I make comments on subjects I hold dear (which I think in most cases are fairly reasonable). I'm sure if I was way out of line a stern warning from one of the moderators would be quickly fired my way or I would get kicked off! Anyway thanks for your feed back & I will keep it in mind the next time someone has a shot at a service which I think does a great job. cheers
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Its probably time for a Internal CFS Referendum...
"Do we support the mass alteration of MFS Comcens Response Data for CFS Responses...and SES".
you mean another mass SES alteration similar to what was done to stuff up responses that were previously correct?
Unless the wrong data was given or the data is not being updated continuously....then rubbish will get rubbish out
responses in most areas (especially those brigades on BOMS prior to the CRD changeover) were largely correct a couple of years ago but were deliberately changed to remove CFS.
PS. Pip good to hear someone else lodges those 'issues' forms, despite it being pretty much a total waste of time.
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one of the (many) totally stuffed responses in the last day or so:
16:48:49 26-08-09 MFS: *CFSRES INC046 26/08/09 16:47,RESPOND Tree Down,BLACKWOOD CFS,BLACKWOOD MAP 0 J 1,ON MAIN ROAD APP 2 BENDS FROM BLACK ROAD,P2 BLOCKING MOST OF ROAD,STT020 SES Sturt Response
16:52:07 26-08-09 MFS: *CFSRES INC046 26/08/09 16:50,RESPOND Tree Down,MAIN RD,COROMANDEL VALLEY MAP 166 Q 2,APP 2 BENDS FROM BLACK ROAD.TREE BLOCKIN,G MOST OF ROAD P2,MIT020 SES Metro South Response
16:53:02 26-08-09 MFS: STOP FOR INC046 ADDRESS CORRECTION IS NOT YOUR RESPONSE SES Sturt Response
16:56:32 26-08-09 MFS: FROM MATHEW BELTON STURT TO RESPOND AND STOP FOR METRO SOUTH SES Metro South Response
16:56:30 26-08-09 MFS: FROM MATHEW BELTON STURT TO RESPOND AND STOP FOR METRO SOUTH SES Sturt Response
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Its probably time for a Internal CFS Referendum...
"Do we support the mass alteration of MFS Comcens Response Data for CFS Responses...and SES".
you mean another mass SES alteration similar to what was done to stuff up responses that were previously correct?
Unless the wrong data was given or the data is not being updated continuously....then rubbish will get rubbish out
responses in most areas (especially those brigades on BOMS prior to the CRD changeover) were largely correct a couple of years ago but were deliberately changed to remove CFS.
PS. Pip good to hear someone else lodges those 'issues' forms, despite it being pretty much a total waste of time.
Soo....who made to decision to filtered that one up... lol
what a stupid idea to make CFS Chainsaws rendered useless...
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whenever we have these threads appear.....its always one name that appears to be stoking the fire.....i wonder why he bothers so much living in another place :?
I also get verrryyyyy annoyed re other posters (Darius, Zippy, CrashnDash, PumpRescue,etc) critising CRD system they do not have full details.
Do you know if the SES resource might be assisting another Unit in a different location, but still getting pager messages for the area they are assisting in ! Do you know if the local Unit is on crew rest period so they can assist later. Thus another Unit is covering the response area with vehicles maybe closer than the normal LHQ ! Yes, some SES Units have expensive equipment purchased on a limited budget. Go complain to your own organisation about equipment resources.
Yes I have commented re CFS Resource Tracking but I am not slamming it with what seems like an attitude.
I thought we were trying to share & learn to assist the community. Not this 'I did not get to go so I will have a hissy fit' attitude.
** this posting is not aimed at all people on this forum. I have been smoldering on this for a few days & had enough. No offence intended ***
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I know more than you think...... :-)
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Well said bajdas - afterall it wasn't us who decided to buy all of the extra stuff, it isn't us who decided the the service gets sent to every storm job that comes through Comms & it wasn't us who decided to paint "Rescue" on the side of everything, in fact it wasn't us who said "SES is the lead agency for storm & flood in the state". From memory those decisions were made by senior management & the government as for the USAR stuff - well that was a National thing! And this "look what they are doing! look what they have got!" attitude has gone on for as long as I can remember & I can't for the life of me work out why! Then there is "why belong to more than one organisation", well everywhere else (including in SA) people do! In fact the other night I was raining people in tying knots & there were guys from RFS, VRA & even one from NSWFB who are part of SES as well. This always raises it's ugly head everytime there isn't any fires - maybe people are bored? Anyway mate I guess there isn't any point trying to change peoples opinions, this will go on & on & on :-D
Take it easy mate & just enjoy your new unit.
cheers
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The system we have now is excellent, why would you bother local volunteers with the correct equipment and training to go to local events, when we can call in other volunteers from miles and miles away. :wink:
Bugger the public "We pay our taxes and levies and waa waa waa" you can just hear it now!
"WAKE UP SERVICES" get over protecting your duties and patch and serve the friggin public properly......FARKKK this shitte is wrong!
Can anyone of you think of any rational friggin reason for not using the closest most appropriate resource? If you can think of one, perhaps take a Blooody good look at yourself and ask whether you are still in it for the right reasons! :evil: and if you still think its valid.
Then put your reasons up here if you think they are still noble and let the masses give you another perhaps reasoned perspective! and maybe a reality friggin check :x put "Mr Angry" in here coz I couldnt find "Mr Can O Whooparsee"
Still waiting for the rational reasons as to why the closest most appropriate response is not sent!
Not bored Chook, just sick of stupidity!
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The system we have now is excellent, why would you bother local volunteers with the correct equipment and training to go to local events, when we can call in other volunteers from miles and miles away. :wink:
Bugger the public "We pay our taxes and levies and waa waa waa" you can just hear it now!
"WAKE UP SERVICES" get over protecting your duties and patch and serve the friggin public properly......FARKKK this shitte is wrong!
Can anyone of you think of any rational friggin reason for not using the closest most appropriate resource? If you can think of one, perhaps take a Blooody good look at yourself and ask whether you are still in it for the right reasons! :evil: and if you still think its valid.
Then put your reasons up here if you think they are still noble and let the masses give you another perhaps reasoned perspective! and maybe a reality friggin check :x put "Mr Angry" in here coz I couldnt find "Mr Can O Whooparsee"
Still waiting for the rational reasons as to why the closest most appropriate response is not sent!
Not bored Chook, just sick of stupidity!
Im with Jaff, Keen to hear an answer to this...
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I thought we were trying to share & learn to assist the community. Not this 'I did not get to go so I will have a hissy fit' attitude.
** this posting is not aimed at all people on this forum. I have been smoldering on this for a few days & had enough. No offence intended ***
yes assisting the community is the aim, but as has already been said, an SES unit driving lights and sirens (causing a hazard to other traffic) from 20km away past 3 or 4 CFS brigades who are equipped to do the job is not assiting anyone, except maybe making that SES unit feel important. I don't claim to know the full CRD details (I don't think anyone does!) but apparently (like pumprescue said) know more than you think.
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Thought it was covered - no way of knowing who that is (other than the mandated response service)with the current setup. I agree with the stupidity bit Jaff, but your anger is directed at the wrong people/service. Here is another way to think about it - if there was a fire on the river bank & the closest appropriate service was a SES unit (trained, has the right equipment etc) would it be appropriate to page them first? Would Adelaide fire even know? Answer is obviously no!
So I believe it is something that the government, minister & SAFECOM need to deal with - it may be as simple as identifying suitable CFS resourses in the despatch system for that type of tasking (like the RCR directory), providing some extra training & equipment to the resources which have been identified or even writing a simple instruction that identifies areas of the state not covered by first response SES units so send the closest fire service first. As I said above your frustration is directed at the wrong people - maybe its something that CFS payed staff should be raising through your management structure - I'm sure they will be able to sought it all out for you, one way or another!
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This is all nothing to do with Politics and Rivalry......
Yes SES are the combatant agency to storm damage events, but CFS are open to be the first responder to any local jobs to assess the many jobs that SES gets called to.
Send the SES to the jobs they need to be at..relating to tree's YES SES should be at every Tree On Structure.
Tree on a Road? Send the closest Chainsaw..and in the Mount Lofty Ranges...CFS is typically it.
My brigade personally do not ever use a appliance siren for a tree down...Priority 2 unless life threat
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Because most of us are smart enough to know that their is no point having stupdily expensive vehicles sitting there most of the time, most people struggle to crew 1 vehicle, let alone half a dozen.
Think about it, you just said yourself people are sick of having to much put on them, so why join half a dozen different services.
99% of the time the jobs are cutting up tree's and tarping, with the odd sandbagging job.
Can't remember a real full on USAR style job happened, if ever.
Anytime ropes are mentioned the job ends up being done by state staff...you know what I mean..... :-P
It annoyed the filtered out of me yesterday when the SCC were pumping out jobs flat out to units that were 50+ kms away.
And you wanna cane MFS comms, they have to follow the same stupid rules.
Reply #34 on: Today at 02:46:48
I know more than you think......
If you know the SES SOC RFA system and its history, then the above posting is very insulting. Yes, I believe you know of a CRD system, but not the system being critised in this thread.
The business rules are set in agreement with all MFS, CFS, SES & SAFECOM. Go critise them not a volunteer.
If I am wrong, then tell me your name because I must be training with you has a SES Volunteer or paid staff. I doubt this.
I also work full-time has 2nd level support, with a call centre system which dispatches jobs to me. This system has time response and time to fix penalties that are tightly controlled. The CFS and SES system do not go to this level. I do not know if MFS have time to fix system.
On Monday and Tuesday, we also were flat out at work maintaining infrastructure. It might not involve lights/sirens but people do get impacted greatly if the problem is not fixed in a timely manner.
The same when I was doing Coms In at SES SOC. It might be a small storm damage tasking in your perspective that anyone could fix. But the woman who wanted help for her 90+ old mother with a possible unstable roof in the Barossa Valley area it was a big deal. She was in metro Adelaide when she got a call from her frightened mother.
As stated, yes you might work with a emergency CRD system. But please do not insult me by saying you know better than myself when you do not publish your name on the forum you post to.
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BAHAHAHAHHAA....I love it when everyone fights over who should be doing what...
....this is just perfect ammo for getting rid of three services and just creating one big one which does everything - and reduces duplicated administration, training. staffing and infrastructure........
wake up to yourselves......you're talking about SA Government administration......you minions on the frontline can do bugger all to change it until you've got someone at the top of the admin chain who gives a rats about service delivery - and has the punction, foresight and clout to make that change happen before the service is blasted by the coroner or the media!!
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BAHAHAHAHHAA....I love it when everyone fights over who should be doing what...
....this is just perfect ammo for getting rid of three services and just creating one big one which does everything - and reduces duplicated administration, training. staffing and infrastructure........
wake up to yourselves......you're talking about SA Government administration......you minions on the frontline can do bugger all to change it until you've got someone at the top of the admin chain who gives a rats about service delivery - and has the punction, foresight and clout to make that change happen before the service is blasted by the coroner or the media!!
Aint that the truth.... :-D
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Aint that a awesome dream :D Grant, Euan, Stuart & ..whose the Minister these days? in the Same room...
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Aint that a awesome dream :D Grant, Euan, Stuart & ..whose the Minister these days? in the Same room...
just give them all box cutters and last man standing wins
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On Monday and Tuesday, we also were flat out at work maintaining infrastructure.
baj.....you're post highlights the stupidity of the fact that mutual aid arrangements exist in the current system for just this reason and SES don't (and won't) use them....you know it, and we know it....and YOU, the SES make the community (including lil old ladies) wait unnecessarily, because u dont devolve jobs....dont sound so sanctimonious when people criticise your "system" for decisions like that.
Don't say that MFS and CFS agree to it, they don't, didnt and wont ever sign off on that....pure and utter crap. They just don't push the matter, because at this stage there is no point to doing so....one day there will be
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and while I'm on an early morning roll....if someone could visit Sturt SES and remove the obvious hardwiring they have for their siren from the ignition that would be great thanks..... Darius may well have seen them the same day I did......miles from home, and on a tree job P2, with a boatload of noise.... just dumb
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MFS: *CFSRES INC030 29/08/09 08:59,RESPOND STORM DAMAGE,WAIKERIE ,WAIKERIE MAP 0 0 0 TG205,NO 4 PENALUNA CR, WAIKERIE. SALT CHURCH., MINOR STORM DAMAGE. FROM SES VIA REG. 3, DUTY OFFICER.,WAIK19
Finally some sense.
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Ah, I do miss this place sometimes.
I love it when a few people dare to ask why the closest and most appropriate resource wasn't sent to a Tree Down job, and suddenly the SES gents start blowing up and screaming about "Empire Building" and the like. Idiots.
The allegations that SACAD will fix it all are certainly far fetched. The Fire Service can't even get its own act together and currently requires me, as IC to know the nearest 10 Brigades to my location, as well as the location of ALL specialist equipment within the Region and State in case I need it. THAT is the problem. As much as I would love to know all of that... I don't.
Will things ever change? Who knows. But it's going to take a lot of work by people that know what they are doing to get things to a place that will even begin to resemble Fire & Rescue Services that know what they are doing.
Possibly off topic, but a quick question to our SAMFS comms lads... What the filtered is going on down there? Why are the responses so wonky these days? You have "Smoke in Area" calls with the further info stating that there is smoke issuing from a premises, callers who are having their requests denied, callers who are getting pages with the opposite of the directions they have stated... Whats the deal? (I know the gents who post here are solid operators, but are there a heap of blows ins in comms at the moment or something?)
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smoke in area would constitute smoke sighting...so it could be from a building, it could be a rural fire.... MFS thinks its Structure, CFS thinks its Rural...
Could we say...Smoke in area is "Please attend to investigate smoke sighted at this address" Simple.
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MFS: *CFSRES INC030 29/08/09 08:59,RESPOND STORM DAMAGE,WAIKERIE ,WAIKERIE MAP 0 0 0 TG205,NO 4 PENALUNA CR, WAIKERIE. SALT CHURCH., MINOR STORM DAMAGE. FROM SES VIA REG. 3, DUTY OFFICER.,WAIK19
Finally some sense.
And do you why Zippy because the closest unit (Barmera) has consistently over many years re-directed Waikerie tasks to Waikerie CFS, because both groups know & respect each others capabilities & Barmera believe that RCR coverage in their area is far more important. So obviously someone has finally taken the hint :wink:
Hello Numbers - where have you been? You have in your usually blunt way identified the real problems - as for the idiots comment, have a look at what some of the other comments on this thread & you wonder what it is really all about. I agree service delivery is what it is all about, Crash you example is a fair point. I can think of numerous other examples of a slow first response for various reasons - including brigades/units who can't get enough crew to respond & have to default. It happens everywhere sadly & there isn't an easy solution - big operations with multiple agencies involve still don't always result in an instant response (Renmark, Karoonda, Pinaroo, Newcastle, are examples I can Think of) Hopefully most of the time we can assist in a timely manner but sometimes filtered just happens cheers
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I just want to clear up a few things as this is my last comment on the subject (do I hear a cheer? :-D )
1 The closest most appropriate resource should be sent to any job - regardless of which service.
2 This resource must be trained, competent & equipped to do the particular task, regardless of which service.
3 The system must know about the resource, hard to despatch if they don't & you can't assume that just because a certain brigade/unit is there they can actually do it !
4 I personally think that the current system that insures that brigades/units are competent is crap!
5 I think it was a mistake to remove responsibility from the local council to support the volly emergency services.
6 It was also a mistake for the SES to use "Rescue" as a marketing tool, everywhere else its combating mother nature - rescue is just one of the other things we do!
7 It is unfortunate that some on this forum believe that any untrained filtered wit can do the tasks that SES do, including SAR, storm damage etc. However SES has a responsibility to ensure that its people are competent- regardless of their unit name or location.
Finally I still believe that your "dream" of one service is full of danger for some of you & your towns - it hasn't worked elsewhere why do you think it will work in SA?
Anyway good luck to you all, what ever happens.
cheers
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smoke in area would constitute smoke sighting...so it could be from a building, it could be a rural fire.... MFS thinks its Structure, CFS thinks its Rural...
Could we say...Smoke in area is "Please attend to investigate smoke sighted at this address" Simple.
Not really...
There is a huge difference between "Smoke in area" and "Smoke issuing from structure". So, for example, paging a "Smoke in area" call with the further details as "Smoke issuing from building" would be the same as paging "Smoke in Area - Large Grass&Scrub fire at this location". It makes no sense, to include specific information that is not consistent with the rest of the page and can inhibit the response to the incident. Smoke in area tends to suggest that there is smoke in an area with an unknown origin. If you can see what is burning, then it simply goes into the response category of what ever is burning... (as long as you can define it as either a Commercial or Domestic Building in the ever so rigid response parameters)
I don't know about you, but to me "Smoke issuing from building" pretty much screams that shes going like stink. Rather than the "Smoke in Area" lazy haze cause by some burn offs in the local area. (Plus, you can work a rural fire off a pumper, but a rural truck without CABA ain't so good at structure fires)
Finally it doesn't matter what service you're from, CFS or MFS, it doesn't matter what you 'think', as a comms operator you turnout based wholly on the information passed to you via the caller. You don't second guess from an office. THAT is when problems happen. (Sure the local brigade can start to modify their response based on the info from mets, and hence the caller, but thats for the OIC to do, NOT the Comms chaps.)
Anyhow, enough of dragging the thread off topic by whining about terminology.
The basic issue is that, like always, CRD is munted across all services in the State. Will it take deaths and an inquest to fix it? Hopefully not, but its looking that way. We have a nasty summer coming up, with a CRD and comms system that totally shitful. May as well go grab the old Shand Mason so atleast our apparatuses are as capable as our support systems.
*sigh*
For once I even feel sorry for the SES
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7 It is unfortunate that some on this forum believe that any untrained filtered wit can do the tasks that SES do, including SAR, storm damage etc. However SES has a responsibility to ensure that its people are competent- regardless of their unit name or location.
Just for the record Chook, I have never said that any "untrained filtered wit",
can do the job of the SES! Also just for the record I have met some untrained filtered wits from the SES.......and yes quite a few from every other service...some would say I qualify for this title, but hopefully never to my face!
What I will continue to bleet about is any service that doesnt do the right thing ie "CLOSEST MOST APPROPRIATE RESOURCE"
Unlike what you say Chook, this will not be my last post on this subject...BLEET ON !
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Closest, most appropriate retard should be responded in every instance...
;)
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smoke in area would constitute smoke sighting...so it could be from a building, it could be a rural fire.... MFS thinks its Structure, CFS thinks its Rural...
Could we say...Smoke in area is "Please attend to investigate smoke sighted at this address" Simple.
Not really...
There is a huge difference between "Smoke in area" and "Smoke issuing from structure". So, for example, paging a "Smoke in area" call with the further details as "Smoke issuing from building" would be the same as paging "Smoke in Area - Large Grass&Scrub fire at this location". It makes no sense, to include specific information that is not consistent with the rest of the page and can inhibit the response to the incident. Smoke in area tends to suggest that there is smoke in an area with an unknown origin. If you can see what is burning, then it simply goes into the response category of what ever is burning... (as long as you can define it as either a Commercial or Domestic Building in the ever so rigid response parameters)
I don't know about you, but to me "Smoke issuing from building" pretty much screams that shes going like stink. Rather than the "Smoke in Area" lazy haze cause by some burn offs in the local area. (Plus, you can work a rural fire off a pumper, but a rural truck without CABA ain't so good at structure fires)
Finally it doesn't matter what service you're from, CFS or MFS, it doesn't matter what you 'think', as a comms operator you turnout based wholly on the information passed to you via the caller. You don't second guess from an office. THAT is when problems happen. (Sure the local brigade can start to modify their response based on the info from mets, and hence the caller, but thats for the OIC to do, NOT the Comms chaps.)
If i may, Mr Numbers ;)
Just a brief comment from me, that in CFS area, there is noone to blame except the CFS, whether regional or local, for poor responses. As all calls for CFS area, are either sent straight out because data has been provided to the system, or if there is no data in the system, the brigade is contacted to query who they want responded. Some locals out there make some very average choices for responses, this decision needs to be taken away from them by the State, and responses sent per SOPs only.... thats all on that.
Re; smoke in area being used for structure jobs, i have only ever seen that done for MFS area, and at the discretion of a comms officer, not every slight smell of smoke in a building needs 3 pumps an aerial and the DO to go and tell them to close the window.
Cheers.
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7 It is unfortunate that some on this forum believe that any untrained filtered wit can do the tasks that SES do, including SAR, storm damage etc. However SES has a responsibility to ensure that its people are competent- regardless of their unit name or location.
you mean they're not? :evil: :evil: :evil:
I've spent lots of time in urban and rural areas, and it would seem to be a sad reality that in small communities - any volunteer service seems to attract the cream ......but in larger country centres it seems to attract the dimwitted, authority hungry, "I can't even get a job at McD's" types......
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If i may, Mr Numbers ;)
Just a brief comment from me, that in CFS area, there is noone to blame except the CFS, whether regional or local, for poor responses. As all calls for CFS area, are either sent straight out because data has been provided to the system, or if there is no data in the system, the brigade is contacted to query who they want responded. Some locals out there make some very average choices for responses, this decision needs to be taken away from them by the State, and responses sent per SOPs only.... thats all on that.
Re; smoke in area being used for structure jobs, i have only ever seen that done for MFS area, and at the discretion of a comms officer, not every slight smell of smoke in a building needs 3 pumps an aerial and the DO to go and tell them to close the window.
Cheers.
For sure, I like discussions with people who have a clue.
When comms are actively talking to CFS brigades and because of the CFS Brigade a poor decision is made, thats not really the issue. I think thats really good, and hopefully when the people involved are all switched on, it should work. I've just noticed recently that there seems to be numerous occasions where Comms have been doing their own thing... Perhaps new operators, or just a certain shift with a few mongs onboard. Ah well. but you are right, if we had more guidelines and brigade information in place, then we wouldn't be relying on country bumpkins to make decisions.
Now if only there was a way of getting the correct response type that didn't require SAMFS to turn out the cavalry to every slight smell of smoke, and Fire Alarm... ;)
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The recent storm day had mt barker ses responding without a chainsaw qualified crew, well done......... :roll:
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The recent storm day had mt barker ses responding without a chainsaw qualified crew, well done......... :roll:
Sigh.... The next nearest SES had a full compliment of crew responding.. ;)
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Now is that the CFS/SES, SES or CFS with SES funding...........
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yeah well the fact is, the nearest CFS would still be called to the job's to assess, carry it out, pass it "Back to the SES" where needed....thats what happens locally.
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S end E xtra S andwiches out goes the bait waiting for a bite, yep got one! :evil:
As I have said B4 why not just save us all $$$$Mills and get rid of SES, train CFS the few extra skills that are needed in some areas and let them deal with it. Think of how much fuel we could save?
We could also save $ by not having idle trucks & paying rent on buildings to house unused equipment as in Mt Barkers case. :?
Most of the time in my area SES have to come from 15kms away if they can get a crew? Meanwhile the job could have been started & 1/2 completed by either of the local Em Service just down the road who all have chainsaws(various sizes) & training ,while waiting for them to arrive. Most times they turn up under full lights and sirens I question why, is the fallen tree going to fall further and they have to hurry? No just cause they have so far to go!
Duplication is unnecessary if this was a business(private) the service would be carried out by the local branch and because of the GFC the extra non essential service from the other area would be made redundant or offered positions at the other service centre.
We will call you if we need you but leave that to the OIC, we also don't need you patrolling the streets on bad days looking for and calling in your own jobs either,like I said if we think we need you we will call you.
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Exactly what I mean!!!
MFS: *CFSRES INC025 31/08/09 14:02,RESPOND Tree Down,6 MOUNTFORD AV,BRIDGEWATER MAP 158 E 5,P2 APPROX 1M DIAM, FALLEN ON OTHER TREES, & THREATENING TO FALL ONTO POWER LINES,CALLED ??$B? SES Mt Barker Response
Two perfectly good Fire Services nearby but I guess they have no hostage negotiators to deal with the tree that is threatening to fall so better send SES all the way from Mt Barker!!! :evil: they will be able to talk it straight back up out of harms way. :evil:
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that aint a emergency....thats a job for contractors outright...
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that aint a emergency....thats a job for contractors outright...
Guaranteed L & S all the way!
Hopefully the Hostage negotiator is ready for this emergency.
Stealing jobs from the poor contractors in these tough times Shame Shame Shame
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OK OK OK Ease up men! I used to think firefighters were men, not bitches :roll: Some on here have some points if you want to change it well go get a job as a politician. I can guarantee most of you are loud now but if you were to be asked what you think of SES when needed, most would shut up!!
Who cares how the other service runs, lets focus on our own that ain't perfect!!!
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asked when needed most? - like what exactly?
Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....
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Ah one should look in before one looks out!
Plenty wrong with the CFS for example brigades having group responses to some incidents when they should not, so another station in the group can keep there numbers up. Brigades sending everything out of their stations to some incidents instead of having a justified and tactical response. Brigades doing their own thing when it comes to buying equipment. Brigades attending incidents with out the right crew for the given task instead of defaulting to the next nearest brigade. Brigade members doing tasks at incidents they're not trained for!
I'm not saying the SES is perfect but neither is the CFS when you put it under the microscope.
Plenty of times my station has been responded to vehicles into houses, trees down and once we have dealt with the possible inital rescue, securing the scene or the cutting up of the tree is going to be a prolonged task we hand it over to our local SES brigade, that arrives in a timely manner not under lights and sirens and gets on with it. Why you ask so our resources can be free for any other incident that our appliances can be used for that requires a response.
How I love listening to Mong's bang on about what other services are doing!
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CFS are mongs, thats a given, be hard pressed these days to find a top notch CFS brigade.
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this thread has some good stuff but any posts that purely bag out the SES will be removed. this isn't the point of this site
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asked when needed most? - like what exactly?
Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....
noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born :) they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated
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asked when needed most? - like what exactly?
Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....
noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born :) they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated
"Deliver meals into the hero zone" that has to be the biggest gong beater comment of the year!
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asked when needed most? - like what exactly?
Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....
noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born :) they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated
"Deliver meals into the hero zone" that has to be the biggest gong beater comment of the year!
Hey Captain PC, chill out and feel the water!
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All I will say from a comms point of view is that storm days are very frustrating.
PS: I always get a good laugh from this site. :-D
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they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally,
ROFL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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asked when needed most? - like what exactly?
Besides having the ability to tarp up houses, stabilise a structure or sandbag - their only other talents seem to extend to mass meal production and management during fires....but that seems to be only after its been declared a major incident and the purse strings are open.....
noooo bad Boredy....SES gave that job to the Salvos a few years back....and Spamelot Castle was born :) they do however graciously deliver meals to us out in the hero zone occasionally, which is always appreciated
"Deliver meals into the hero zone" that has to be the biggest gong beater comment of the year!
lol.....satire is wasted when paddling in the shallow end of the gene pool
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MFS: *CFSRES INC025 11/09/09 08:49,RESPOND Tree Down,BATTUNGA RD,ECHUNGA MAP 183 C 16,CALLER DEAN 0438560031 TREE COVERING WHO,LE RD 6M LONG 500 METRES FROM CFS STATION,MTB020