SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Jono on July 24, 2007, 06:38:49 PM
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Did anyone else happen to see the CFS issue on the news?
Go VFBA!
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I missed it by about 5 minutes did anyone happen to transcribe/ tape /you tube it?
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:? Didn't know it was on would be interested in hearing what it was about etc
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i could youtube it...maybe tommorow
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CEO didnt seem to supportive. :|
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let us know when its on youtube i missed the news :oops:
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The story was about the way the new Comms system is confusing ie the way our pager messages for responses are sent out and the volunteers arent happy :wink:
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It didn't really say much about what was wrong and why the vols don't like it though... What exactly is the problem? I couldn't see anything wrong with the pager message they showed... Does anyone know what the complaint is?
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Its different.
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1900131 07:43:19 25-07-07 PLS PH THE MINISTER ON MOBILE
Wonder if this had anything to do with last night? Listed as Euan's pager on the site.
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I hope the whole TV thing wasnt about pager messages.. If people cant get their head around the pager message, they shouldnt be going any further.. The job is dangerous enough as it is, without people who don't understand the pager message.
I know that may seem harsh, but there are many more problems that could have / I hope were addressed than a bl##dy pager message layout !!!!
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it isn't.
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Maybe it's about underlying issues of promises made but not kept.
Some people here have no problems with the mfs pager layout. They may live nearer the metro area and/or get useful & relatively accurate info on them, so I can understand why those people would have contempt for people who whinge about the change to mfs comms.
However some of us are lucky to get more than two useful words on the message, and find it pot luck as to whether Adelaide Fire come up on other end of the radio when called.
The change has resulted in a lot of backwards steps, and annoying pager messages are simply the obvious reminders of promises that have not been kept.
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Our group like a lot of others now runs a duty officer system so if adelaide fire don't answer we just go over to our group TG's, however we have been told to keep track of times it takes for adelaide fire to answer and record it if it takes a long time.
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Not answering the radio isn't acceptable, keep notes on that.
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Not answering the radio isn't acceptable, keep notes on that.
When one person is monitoring up to 9 cfs channels it is just not possible to guarantee a response!
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Your kidding me aren't you!
If a professional call receipt and dispatch centre can't answer calling appliances, I'd say there is a problem - wouldn't you.
If what you say is true that a staff member is too busy to answer calling appliances then this issue is clearly one for every person in the state to be truly concerned and outraged about.
What a crazy thought that our emergency service responders can't be answered by Adelaide Fire, it's crazy whatever the reason is.......
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When one person is monitoring up to 9 cfs channels it is just not possible to guarantee a response!
But i bet 150 gets looked after! Big statement to make there. At least when it was in CFS hands you WERE guaranteed a response.
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Not answering the radio isn't acceptable, keep notes on that.
When one person is monitoring up to 9 cfs channels it is just not possible to guarantee a response!
You have to be F*#*#*# joking right !! ??? So what is going to happen if someone transmits a mayday?? - They can't be gaurenteed a response?? - What, they just die?? .. That's unbelievable, and if true, will be raised at a higher level and hopefully taken further.
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funny that....ive heard Adelaide Fire Call up 421 (christies beach i believe) on TG124 ?!?!?! what happened to TG150 lol...
Ideally at MFS comcen, there should be at least 1 person dedicated to all the CFS Regional Ops Talkgroups...(or more im not sure)
I wonder how MAYDAY-TG115 is monitored at Adelaide fire...having to listen to several other TG's already...
Wonder whats gonna happen/change b4 this summer hits us???
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421, O'halloran Hill, were probably in CFS area, so probably being spoken too by whomever was monotoring the CFS desk.. (Hence being on 124) .. - Leaving TG150 to whom ever was on that desk..
Still doesn't explain why a response on GRN can't be gaurenteed ! - Thats just disgusting..
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Not answering the radio isn't acceptable, keep notes on that.
When one person is monitoring up to 9 cfs channels it is just not possible to guarantee a response!
Doesn't hurt to Say "standby blah blah" takes two seconds :|
We went out the other morning and we were the only CFS brigade in the state out at the time and it took a bit over 20 seconds to get a response. What will happen when there's multiple jobs around the state running, perhaps all groups should implement a duty roster so the brigades don't have to worry about talking to adelaide fire!!!!!
Perhaps it's time to maybe recruit soem of the former OCO's that didn't get a job!!!!!
(yes i realise there probably isn't funding for that)
Or the UFU could get involved and squeeze some money out of government for it, they seem pretty good at doing that.
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For your interest, a copy of a posting to the 'CFS Yahoo Group'
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CFS Radio dispatch problems
Posted by: "Enfield SES" [email protected] dsa_sa_98
Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:07 pm (PST)
Hi all,
A new compilation video from the Adelaide TV has been put in the video section
of my FTP server.
The segment is called "CFS Radio Dispatch Problem 24 Jul07.ave"
The video is a 5.7 MB file in Divx (mpeg4) format and runs about 1:40
minutes.
The Web location for the files is ftp://video:[email protected]
and a password of "news" may be needed with some downloading programs.
Cheers
Arno.
-----------------------
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Not answering the radio isn't acceptable, keep notes on that.
When one person is monitoring up to 9 cfs channels it is just not possible to guarantee a response!
Doesn't hurt to Say "standby blah blah" takes two seconds :|
We went out the other morning and we were the only CFS brigade in the state out at the time and it took a bit over 20 seconds to get a response. What will happen when there's multiple jobs around the state running, perhaps all groups should implement a duty roster so the brigades don't have to worry about talking to adelaide fire!!!!!
Perhaps it's time to maybe recruit soem of the former OCO's that didn't get a job!!!!!
(yes i realise there probably isn't funding for that)
Or the UFU could get involved and squeeze some money out of government for it, they seem pretty good at doing that.
Check out the UFU's statement regarding the CRD http://www.ufusa.asn.au/wordback_5.pdf
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If Adelaide Fire are struggling to cope with the workload now, how is the system going to cope when the state has a moderately bad fire day, with multiple brigades repsonding to multiple calls?, let alone dealing with a really bad day which CFS face each year.... (and remembering we are only talking about Call receipt & dispatch here).
I was listening in to a call out recently, where it took 10 minutes for Adelaide Fire to answer any of the 4 appliances going to the same call.... (and each one called several times). Because they hadn't "acknowledged receipt of page" (although they all tried) they were also defaulted to the next MFS brigade..
After 10 minutes of calling the Group officer finally got through, stopped called the MFS crew, as they were not required, and advised that had the radio been answered earlier, then a default wouldn't have been required. The operator stated that he had turned down 124, so he could hear the (country) MFS on the other channel....
As I understand it, there is one person doing the radio for the Country areas, and one for metro....which is going to fail dismally on a busy fire day....I'd suggest no matter how good the operator, they are not going to be able to answer all the country channels in a timely fashion, when things start happening.
To make things worse, is the (often) poor amount of information on pager messages, in regard to address details - and on various forums, some people have bagged anyone who dare criticise the new format (and the associated problems) and have stated to just ask for more info on the radio when you get to the station.
Waiting 10 minutes to get an answer is not going to help the process!
I know the people at Adelaide Fire are trying their best - but the haste at which the process was forced upon the two services, by the Minister, has resulted in several very backwards steps for the call receipt & dispatch for CFS....
Pip
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I agree that no response on the radio is unacceptable, but as for busy fire ban days, don't regions take over resource tracking?
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not all regions
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Resource tracking is only region1.
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Roger
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Minister defends CFS changes
Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:19am AEST
The SA Government is defending its liaison with CFS volunteers over changes. (ABC News)
South Australia's Emergency Services Minister, Carmel Zollo, has rejected suggestions that Country Fire Service (CFS) volunteers are being ignored.
The Fire Brigade Volunteers' Association says the morale of its members has declined because they are not being consulted and it is getting harder to recruit.
The Association says a key concern is a lack of consultation on the CFS changing to the Metropolitan Fire Service emergency dispatch system.
Ms Zollo says she is keen to hear of any concerns but the new arrangement are designed to ease pressure on volunteers.
"Even in the last four years or so, the CFS has gradually come on line and the information has been there and there's been consultation with paid and volunteer staff," she said.
"They do such an important job and we cannot do without them.
"The CFS has been preparing for this transition for the last two years. The ... arrangements will complement the new computer-aided dispatch system when it comes online in the next year or so."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/25/1987744.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/25/1987744.htm)
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When one person is monitoring up to 9 cfs channels it is just not possible to guarantee a response!
so is that what the service agreement says?
as you would know Mr Comms, MFS have investigated / are investigating some of these incidents (particularly the one Pip refers to) and I'm told are taking action to rectify.
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We were told at a meeting, informing us all of the changes, (oh yeah, that was consultation..) that there would be extra staff in at Adelaide Fire, who will cope with any busy periods, and that Regions will not be undertaking resource tracking anymore...but almost everything were told wasn't going to change, has no changed, so who knows!!!
The extra staff have not really come on line - as I understand it, there is only one extra person per shift, compared to what Adelaide Fire had prior to the transition, so a busy day will make it very difficult....
Pip
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Maybe we should be looking at paid CFS Staff too.
If it is true that they have known this was happening for over 2 years then why didnt they conduct the consultation with volunteers.
From the was said yesterday it was CFS who set the date a long time ago for when the transfer had to happem.
maybe we should bas asking a) why didnt the staff tell us
and b) why didnt the CFS staff tell the VFBA. I sustepect however that the VFBA knew when this was all happenign and were part of the problem as well.
Maybe someone should get the minutes from the SAFECOM Board meetings where VFBA reps sit and see if it was ever discussed there? And if it was why didnt they kick up a fuss at that time? Im sure they would have?
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rom the was said yesterday it was CFS who set the date a long time ago for when the transfer had to happem.
It was the Minister who set the date and made the rush happen. If she didn't set a date so close maybe this would have been a smoother transition.
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I think you are a little behind the times
she said yesterday on radio backed up by the CFS that it was them who set the date before she was even a Minister.
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There was no consultation with volunteers but consultation with paid staff with in the CFS,the only thing we where aware of was a meeting to explain the cut over to Adelaide fire..Don't think that is classed as consultation do you??? One would hope that when one calls Adelaide fire that they answer the radio?? wrong there have been a number of times right across the state that they are not answering the radio and why not????
Why does it take 7 Min's for Adelaide fire to place a stop call onto a brigade pager??? Why does it take five Min's for Adelaide fire to page a brigade to a RCR when its called in via radio??? why ddi adelaide fire not answet a group officer on radio while I was talking to them via phone and telling them he was calling???
And now where being informed that CAD is still about 18 months away....
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I think you are a little behind the times
she said yesterday on radio backed up by the CFS that it was them who set the date before she was even a Minister.
Are you really sure AJ??
I believe the agreement was made some time ago and all part of the transition to the new SACAD system, but the decision of July 1 was the minister's, made just a couple of months prior.
Many people have known for a quite a while that a merger was on the cards (as part of the SACAD shift). We were just told that it wouldn't be a backward step in communications. Quite the contrary.
Suggesting the paid staff deliberately held up communications sounds to me like unwarranted s*** stirring. Unless your regional staff are truly useless, but most regions seem to be represented here and that impression hasn't been given previously.
Do you have another agenda AJ, or am I just reading your posts the wrong way??
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The merger of the Comcens, or whatever you want to call it, has been on the cards for some time (a few years, I think).
There were a number of issues between both services that were sticking points, which the two services couldn't agree on. Presumably because of not being able to move past those sticking points, not a lot more work appears to have been done on the transition.
The Minister has then advised both services that the transition will occur, and that it will be July 1st.
There was a short time frame for it to occur - the sticking points were sorted out (not sure if that was before of after the Ministers direction) - and then the transition occurred...and then all the current problems became apparent, as I see it, because of the haste in which it was forced to occur.
And, the new SACAD system, which this is going to be part of, is months or maybe even years away.....
As for the SAFECOM advisory board - it was certainly not put to the Board prior to three months ago...I'd have to check to see if the board was advised in the last three months....
Pip
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Just because the CFS is backing up the minister doesn't mean that what she says isn't just political spin. There are some at the top of the CFS that may want to go higher up in the system since everything is converging. For this reason they may be willing to follow the party line rather than what is best for the public and the service they lead. However I think you'll find that the staff are just as unhappy but aren't out there saying it as they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.
It was rumoured at the start of the year that this would happen, but the rumours were downplayed with assurances that the combination would only take place once the database (SACAD) was all sorted out and put to bed, which sort of meant some time between a year and two years. It wasn't till mid March that there were suggestions that it could happen and shortly thereafter the MFS agreed to take it on in some form. Of course this then led to the mad rush to make it happen.
As for summer, there is yet to be any thought about what will happen with regards to staffing levels or if the regions will take the Regional talkgroups during the day.
So yes it IS all being done on the fly. That said however its been getting more then its fair share of criticism here on SAFF. Obviously the general public doesn't give a monkeys as they think the fire service involves fire appliances and water and nothing more.
More often than not there is a bit more behind the stories than what you can read off the paging site. There are a lot of instances where people have taken stuff out of context and posted it here as a screw up when it was not. The limitation on accuracy comes from the person making the 000 call. You can have the best CAD system in the world but crud in equals crud out.
So YES the system is mucked up and both the Government and SAFECOM are responsible. It needs to be fixed. But its not as bad as what is portrayed here. Volys have the right to feel let down and the Minister should acknowledge this rather than saying everything is fine when it isn't. To say things are fine just makes people more annoyed as it makes it obvious she either doesn't care or she thinks she can just spin it away in the media.
Hicks
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I hope that who ever agreed or started this lame idea of having a central dispatching system is prepared to stand in front of the coroner and explain themselves when someone loses their lives because the wrong brigade was responded or as you have all asked...what happens in a mayday...sorry MFS have turned our radio down or are too busy to answer....
they have completely filtered this up....I can't believe that we were sucked into such a situation...
I am on the alerts system and know how much local knowledge and consultation is involved with deciding what brigades to respond...not to be anymore...
I am completely furious that the minister is that stupid and more worried about looking good and covering her b(&*#^%$^%SIDE instead of listening to what is real!
go wendy and give it to them big time...
are people aware that the MFS & CFS systems are NOT compatible as promised and as a result all of our data is not in the system...
:x :x :x
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I think the idea of having a central comms centre is a fantastic idea - and I applaud the person who decided it needed to be done.
It's the way it was done that seems to have caused the problems. I don't blame the comms operators either - if its getting too busy for them to handle CFS and MFS calls, they are clearly understaffed...
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I like this whole central dispatch idea. Yes it seem have been done badly but it is making sure closest brigade will go and takes out the ability of keeping jobs within groups.
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Dunno about the whole closest appliance etc, i have seen a number of calls in our group where the wrong resource was sent, like yesterday there was a 2 car MVA with no entrapments in the middle of goolwa and MFS sent Goolwa and Mt Compass even though SES and MFS at Victor are closer 2nd rescue resources than Compass. :|
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it is making sure closest brigade will go and takes out the ability of keeping jobs within groups.
no that's SACAD which is still at least 18 months away.
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If you knew how much info is behind the current dispatching system, you wouldn't want to go to a central system...
I am on the alerts system and we often have vital local knowledge that influences the responses...not something that will happen anymore...
and....most people who endured Black Tuesday are super sensitive and summer or winter call in any smoke or fire...how many false alarms are they going to be responded to unneccesarily?? volunteers time is very valuable and it will take no time at all to brown them off if they are often responding to an auto dispatch that is a non event...you will find they will wait until the second alarm...
if you are someone who lives to hear their pager go, you will love it...for those of us who have livlihoods to make, especially farming communities...couldn't be worse...
sorry but it's a huge step backwards...
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In my view it's taken the community out of the system....The CFS has always been the community protecting itself by having a fire service where community members are the service provider.
While there is a need for a central coordinating authority with overall control, the community should never be taken out of the call receipt loop for the reasons mentioned by Captcom above.
How can centralising create a more robust system - Answer it can't...What it does is introduce vunerabilty in the system where a busy day will saturate the available staff and overwhelm the system.
With Alerts or the now gone ERS7 the communities took the load and remained available to the community for advice and response.
I remember taking tons of ERS7 calls from concerned residents, just looking for reassurance or a quick update.
Not going to happen now.
I don't really like the direction of the CFS these days..... :-(
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I understand what you're saying, but I can't quite see the reason that a single comms centre is bad. It's the way it has been done that seems to be the problem.
If instead of MFS taking over our CRD, would it be a problem if SHQ had instead taken over MFS CRD and nothing had changed for CFS?
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Don't get confused between what the CFS is calling CRD and SACAD. What was supposed to happen was to simply move the CRD from SOCC to MFS, nothing was supposed to change about the way brigades were responded. For various reasons (cockups) it didn't happen quite like that. SACAD is yet to come and that is where all the changes in responses are supposed to happen.
A single comms centre is good, if done properly, and there is no reason why once these current problems are sorted out that can't be the case. (Of course it should have all been worked out before the cutover but that's a different problem and not the fault of MFS). So while for some groups/regions the current situation is indeed a step backwards (due to aforementioned cockups), it should improve and hopefully, in due course, be better.
When SACAD comes in is when we will loose (under the present plans) local input and suffer from having "all your eggs in one basket" (ie. no fallbacks like being able to answer 000 calls locally if we have a complete comms centre overload).
The local input is not really required in near Adelaide areas, some groups (Mt Lofty, Heysen, Para, Mawson) have been responded by MFS, not SOCC, for years now anyway, but in more rural areas it is (even the more rural areas of region 1).
The R1 volunteer management committee (VMC) are putting together what we as a region want to see in the business rules for SACAD, which includes these types of things as options for groups to choose. The R1VMC has written to other regional VMCs as well on the subject. So Captcom, and anyone else, you need to get your ideas for how it should work put forward by your regional VMCs as well. If all regions say much the same thing and COAC endorses it then that's how you make it happen. It's a pity that volunteers have to waste so much of their time sorting out this kind of thing that should be the job of the staff paid to do it, but there ya go.
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The other night at training. One station was trying to reach Adelaide Fire on 124, they tried several times and eventually gave up I think. There seemed to be nobody home on 124. :S
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I hope all these no answer the radio at Adelaide fire are being recorded and a call to the regional office also???
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Having worked in the CFS comcen for 2 years I think the best thing for the CFS and community has been a combined comcen. Really having the two comcens was a big waste of time, at the end of the day we were doing the same job and there were significant delays to the community because we had to phone a building 2 streets away to get responses out. Atleast now if you call "000" (for fire service) you go to the one place. This is a dedicated Communications Centre facility properly set up to handle emergency call receipt and despatch.
It's not a shoe box with two people crammed in there with 500 different people wanting "send this pager msg out, call this person, we need a sig inc, fax the regions, do we have a weather forcast for tomorrow, despatch the bombers and do a bomber notification and don't forget to book the chopper for tomorrow and have on-call staff confirm, oh and we need it done now!" oh and of course in the middle of all this stuff you would get a phone call "can u page timbuck two brigade and put a msg out saying that Fred's having a BBQ at his house next weekend top celebrate his tractor is running again"....
SOC was understaff, outdated (has anyone requested a GRN/Phone recording be pulled for the old system from a busy day?) Yes I've seen the place SHUT DOWN in a power failure so HQ have been able to do nothing for 15 minutes!!!, the OCO's are overworked and underpaid!!!
Atleast now they are doing the pure job they are being paid to do and that's call receipt and despatch. It now means we have MORE people to answer emergency calls, a reduced response time, a better system for "upgrading incidents" and a level of accountability on the end of the phone. YES there are inssues, I will not sweep that under the carpet but with any change you do have problems to iron out and that's the stage we (CFS in general) are at now. Just because something doesn't work in ur favour one day it doesn't mean the system is crap and won't work. I think as Volunteers we need to support the change as it is FOR THE GREATER GOOD! This is not a "rushed" move it has been on the cards since I left CFS in 2005... Maybe we (volunteers) could make life easier on comms operators by doing simple things, ie. If you need an info msg put out on pagers, call the 1800 number for link, that's what we are paying them for! Also why do brigades need their pagers and sirens set off on training night by comms? Have u seen how many msgs they have to send out on a monday night? Why can't someone at station just push the manual response button instead of wasteing the time for a phone call and the operators time to send the page out... then operators may have more time to do things like answer calls and listen out for the radio!
Just my own views of ranting and raving of a person who believes the system will work having been there and understanding it given some time and education...
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1927320 20:08:22 30-07-07 MFS: TEST PAGE ONLY 30/07/2007 8:08:12 PM
1908870 19:53:44 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type),(location)test only 30/07/2007 7:54:04 PM
1908873 19:53:42 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type),(location)test only 30/07/2007 7:54:04 PM
1919190 19:46:12 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG BURRA TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:46:32 PM
1919193 19:46:11 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG BURRA TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:46:32 PM
1919109 19:36:31 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: BRENTWOOD RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:36:52 PM
CFS - Southern Yourke Group
1919110 19:36:29 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: BRENTWOOD RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:36:52 PM
1919303 19:34:12 30-07-07 MFS: CFSRES: BARMERA RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:34:32 PM
1919304 19:34:10 30-07-07 MFS: CFSRES: BARMERA RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:34:32 PM
1909162 19:33:52 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: KAPUNDA RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:34:10 PM
CFS - Light Group
1909167 19:33:50 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: KAPUNDA RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:34:10 PM
1909187 19:33:41 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location),test only 30/07/2007 7:34:00 PM
1909189 19:33:38 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location),test only 30/07/2007 7:34:00 PM
1919347 19:33:18 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: MENINGIE RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:33:38 PM
1919350 19:33:16 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: MENINGIE RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:33:38 PM
1909187 19:32:22 30-07-07 MFS: *CFSRES: (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location), (other info.)URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location), test only 30/07/2007 7:32:42 PM
1909189 19:32:20 30-07-07 MFS: *CFSRES: (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location), (other info.)URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location), test only 30/07/2007 7:32:42 PM
1909206 19:32:03 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: HAMLEY BRIDGE RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:32:23 PM
1909202 19:32:03 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG: HAMLEY BRIDGE RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:32:23 PM
1909018 19:31:10 30-07-07 MFS: CFSRES: LENSWOOD RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:31:31 PM
1909019 19:31:09 30-07-07 MFS: CFSRES: LENSWOOD RESPOND TEST ONLY, TEST STREET, TEST TOWN, DO NOT RESPOND TEST ONLY 30/07/2007 7:31:31 PM
1919074 19:26:01 30-07-07 MFS: TALK GROUP 155
1919074 19:20:59 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 51 - 30/07/07 19:21,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,RETALLACK AV,MARLESTON, MAP 129 H 4 ,,FACTORY ALONGSIDE NETBALL COURTS,205 41 451 201 401*CFSRES:
1909187 19:15:44 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 50 - 30/07/07 19:16,RESPOND DOMESTIC FIRE,7 JUSTINA PL,SURREY DOWNS, MAP 73 B 13 ,,KITCHEN FIRE,311 9519 321*CFSRES:
1909202 19:01:44 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location), (other info.) 30/07/2007 7:02:04 PM
1909205 19:01:42 30-07-07 MFS: URGMSG (brigade) RESPOND (incident type), (location), (other info.) 30/07/2007 7:02:04 PM
1909205 19:00:54 30-07-07 MFS: *CFSRES: balklava)test (incident type), (location), (other info.) 30/07/2007 7:01:13 PM
1909202 19:00:54 30-07-07 MFS: *CFSRES: balklava)test (incident type), (location), (other info.) 30/07/2007 7:01:13 PM
1919074 18:59:39 30-07-07 MFS: TALKGROUP 155
1919074 18:55:48 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 49 - 30/07/07 18:56,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,AUDLEY ST,WOODVILLE NORTH, MAP 92 N 15 ,,,205 41 361 243 249*CFSRES:
Now that's in just over an hour... think about if either of those commercial fires had been greater alarm or the house fire had been going or it had maybe just been operationally busy!
And in fairness half the time a radio talkgroup may be turned down is because we all banter on about crap on GRN. "Jimmy can u go down to Billy the Goose's house and see if his tractor has a spare battery on it because he's not home and the truck needs a new battery to start and maybe while ur there call Joan and see if she can man the radio room" and conversations like that usually occur on talkgroup 111 & 124... and I wouldn't think it's funny because things like that are quite common, we are our own worst enemies!
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Stefan well said...
I think the CFS volunteers would get a rude shock if they had to operate under a proper CAD system and short precise radio transmissions like other states.
Every new thing has issues, if some of you spent more time trying to assist in fixing them then having a good cry on the net the CFS would be a better place.
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The other night at training. One station was trying to reach Adelaide Fire on 124, they tried several times and eventually gave up I think. There seemed to be nobody home on 124. :S
The lights on but nobodys home :-P
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Well said stefan,
all too often on this forum, it seems that some people have nothiing better to do with their life except, tune in to the scanner, eye the paging system and create rumors.
I'd also like to add that unless the pager/response error directly concerns you or your brigade, keep you fingers off the keyboard and shut the (hmm cant write that word) up. sure ask a question about it.
Don't try to put a puzzle together unless you have all the peices.
No matter what is said, a person will only ever make the correct decision at the time. cause if they knew it was wrong they wouldn't make it.. although in hindsight they may have been able to make a better one. These guys in com cens do a great job,
Even with the old ERS7 system we had, trucks were sent the wrong way due to communication breakdowns. To be professional you don't need to be paid.
Please remember they work only with the information avaliable.
lets be positive and not bash the messengers.
This is the 2nd posting for this messsage but think it was worth it.
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Would also be good for brigades to send their own paging as well.On the old FACU/ERS system you tested it in house so why bother the Commcen with all this pager testing.
Fire season isnt here yet so imagine the workload on Commcen when it hits the fan.
As has been stated there are 9 channels being monitored at MFS and idle chit chat isnt helping....no wonder they take their headsets off :?
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My brigade used to do HQ to Station paging to simply test the Siren and Doors through the paging system, on a month basis...but at the time of changing to MFS comcen we changed to doin in house testing through airsource.
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I think it is important to test that the ALERTS phone system actually works, and gets through to the CRD centre.
My brigade has picked up faults in our ALERTS system on several occasions, through ringing the fire number, and getting through to the Comcen...
We now test mostly from our computer, but every so often, we want to make sure that the phone system actually still works. (We are only 25 km from Adelaide, and still on Copper!!)
Pip
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Yes, you need to test the complete system every now and then. Our Brigade found that the first test on the first day of the Adelaide Fire amalgamation didn't work - Adelaide Fire were not on line. Have since found out from CFS Comms coordinator that it was a problem throughout our Region. It was fixed within a day but if we didn't test the whole system we wouldn't have found the fault. Have had no problems with the system since or Adelaide Fire ever. keep up the good work.
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Noticed that the length of pager messages have shrunk. So the fixes are beginning to be applied.
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MFS: INC # 10 - 01/08/07 05:26,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,COMMERCIAL RD,PORT NOARLUNGA SOUTH, MAP 195 H 3 ,,NORTH OF CLIFF AVE,8334 439*CFSRES:
Looks heaps better!!
now just to move the cfsres: tagline to the front of the page to help reduce the chances of corruption... and the time/date to the end...
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Looks heaps better!!
now just to move the cfsres: tagline to the front of the page to help reduce the chances of corruption... and the time/date to the end...
Negative! I don't want *CFSRES: wasting my time at the begginning of the message. But by all means shift the date and time to the end. :)
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I can confirm previous posting by another person (conversation with third person) that meetings have been held for removal of the numeric codes within the pager messages. This includes SES codes changing to letters.
I think this will take a while though, because organisations are taking to opportunity to resolve some long standing naming issues.
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Another Fix applied recent and tested was the separation of brigades within the Onkaparinga Group CFS/SES.
Instead of all the SES taskings being sent to Lobethal..Woodside, Oakbank/Balhannah and Lenswood now have SES codes.
Im "For" *CFSRES being at the front of the message...for various reasons other than pagers goin Tone 7.
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We don't need any clutter at the start of the briagd all that is needed is
(brigade name) (incident type) (location) (other brigades responded) x/x/xx xx:xx CFSRES
Now i understand "MFS:" is fixed it sort of is a good way of saying this is a callout even if the rest of the message is corrupt. Whether short names or numbers are used to tell about other brigades I don't mind
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There were two newsletters on the CFS website yesterday (i downloaded and printed them) in relation to the problems, fixes and priorities of fixing problems. i had a look for them today and the have been removed from the site. The Brigade short names is a proority and being worked on now. Some 18 of the 35 problems reported have been rectified.
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We don't need any clutter at the start of the briagd all that is needed is
(brigade name) (incident type) (location) (other brigades responded) x/x/xx xx:xx CFSRES
Now i understand "MFS:" is fixed it sort of is a good way of saying this is a callout even if the rest of the message is corrupt. Whether short names or numbers are used to tell about other brigades I don't mind
Why do you need the brigade name at the begginning - don't you already know what brigade you're with? :|
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again...many people within brigades have Group pagers...so they get the whole Groups response messages...having a name at the start tells you straight away if it is your own brigade that the call is for, or for another brigade elsewhere in your Group...
If it is a message for your own brigade, it assists in knowing who else has been sent - eg if you have a report of a structure fire, the brigade names in the pager message will indicate who else is coming...and this is particularly important at the moment, with the problems coming out of CRD transition...
It may be that you know that the other brigade who has also been paged struggles with daytime crew, so you can request another brigade also be paged from the start, not after waiting 10 minutes to find the other brigade can't get a crew......
Pip
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I know people who respond to 2 brigades on 1 pager and have arrived at a station at strange hours to find that they are the only person to respond. :oops:
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Ummm, if you got a group pager, make allowances, or don't have one, how is it my problem that you have a group pager, from when I get out of bed, it takes 2 button pushes and I know whats going on.
Another point, think about the liability the commcen has, Captcom was mentioning smoke sighting etc etc, the commcen has a responsibilty to the public, who is to say it isn't a fire, they WILL send the response out, what you do from there is your responsibility.....ALSO like Stefan said, STOP chatting on the regional TG, you have VHF, you have local TG's, if your station is open, why are you on the regional TG, region 6 has got to be the worst for it, get off the regional TG, no wonder they get fed up in comms, let get our stuff together.
If you want to hear how its done properly, get onto an online scanner and listen to the Victorians, thats how its done, no woffle, they only run 4 TG's statewide, and the commcen doesn't take any grief, they will tell you to get to the point.
IF we kept brigade involvement in 000 calls, then we are going backwards, CAD won't work like that, thank god its coming to an end !
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PumpRescue - Good Post!
You have helped me see things from a different point of view.... :-)
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I gather from your post pumpresuce that you live in an area that has street names & street numbers....where it is easy for people who don't know the area, who travel through it, with their mobile phone, and call through what they perceive to be an incident...
My area, less than 25 km from Adeladie does not have street numbers, and can go several kilometres before coming across a street sign...and has lots of city people travelling through with their mobile phones. They call 000 for an incident...and have no idea where they are.
This has resulted, on several occasions, in a wild goose chase for a number of brigades - or significant delays in getting crews to an incident, because the incorrect location was given by the caller - and those taking the call don't have the local knowledge of the area, so they can only go with the info they get from the caller....
To have a brigade 4 minutes drive from an incident not being responded, but two brigades 15 minutes and 20 minutes drive away were responded is not helpful.
While the SACAD system may help fix some of this type of thing. I doubt it will solve everything - and certainly not in the more rural areas....local input is still important.
And I fear that SACAD is being sold as another GRN - it will fix every problem we ever encounter in relation to CRD, (including which service / unit / brigade should be dispatched) as well as solving the issues of people calling for help, who don't know where they are....
SACAD may be better than what we have now, but I don't think it can live up to its hype....
Pip
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Something to sort out location issues may be an improvement of mobile phone tracking technology...being able to roughly pin point where a call to 000 was dialed initally from. With 3G and beyond, becoming the norm...surely this is quite possible to create.
The Lot number's system used in the Hill's is Useless....and can only be determined IF at the local station there is a Council Map of the Area with all the Lot Numbers written on the blocks. Further promotion of Rapid Plates is what the government should be promoting. and of course...teaching the property owner to remember the correct digits of the plate (at least written on the phone)...
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Once again who was it that went and provided the RAPID number scheme to the residents in rural areas....CFS!!!
The government has'nt really pushed for it to become standard or compulsory and I agree lot numbers are useless as it does'nt pinpoint WHERE on the road they are exactly.
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And very few people in my area actually display their Lot number (or even know what it is!!)
The locals are pretty good - giving Rapid numbers & the name of the property owner to us via ALERTS....problem is people not from the area, who don't know what Rapid numbers actually are......!
And every other state now, I think, has gone to a new Rural property identification system, known as Geographic information property street addressing, except SA who has only just started it..... it will give rural properties a street number, based on distances along roadways, and not be based on grid refs, lot numbers etc....
Once this system comes into being, it might solve some problems of where people are....
I don't know when it is due to be finished in SA....
Pip
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http://www.icsm.gov.au/icsm/street/presentation/presentation.swf (http://www.icsm.gov.au/icsm/street/presentation/presentation.swf)
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I believe my Dad rang CFS about Rapid numbers and getting one a couple of times and has never had any luck with person who answered.
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I believe my Dad rang CFS about Rapid numbers and getting one a couple of times and has never had any luck with person who answered.
That's because no one knows which agency is responsible for it, hence the change.
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Local Council's deal with Rapid plates i believe.
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We asked about the property identification in one of the CAD meetings, we were told that SA is going through the rural property ID thing, and it will form part of CAD (more like CAD spurred them to do it) so someone can ring, quote the number of their property an get a turn out.
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Local Council's deal with Rapid plates i believe.
I think it would depend on where you are...in my area, it was the CFS who worked out the Grid Reference, and sold the plate tho the land owner...it was also used as a fundraiser in my area....can't speak for other areas tho'
The dilemma you have now, if you want a Rapid Plate, is that the datum point has changed, and all of the current Rapid plates are a few hundred metres out, (assuming they were correct in the first place)... if you get a new plate, do you go on the old datum point (which I believe is still used in UBD street directories) or the new datum point, which is used in the CFS map books...? :|
Pip
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We do the grid ref number and give it to the householder who then gets the local sign writer to do the plate,,as for SA going to the new rapid system i understand that we have not agreed on it yet as there are some issues with it and that SA is the only state that has a good system already in place..But then again we may not have been consulted on that one also
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The other problem is that you have to get the number plates from WA, as the govt banned anyone other than the current contracted supplier from making plates hence why Adelaide Numberplates is no more.
Anyway how is that petition going re the lack of consultation with CFS.
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We asked about the property identification in one of the CAD meetings, we were told that SA is going through the rural property ID thing, and it will form part of CAD (more like CAD spurred them to do it) so someone can ring, quote the number of their property an get a turn out.
That's still a very MFS/urban-thinking way of looking at it.
Assumes that the caller :
a] is the property owner at the location
b] knows the correct name of the street and
c] knows which township to quote for locality
The system just doesn't cope well with the traveller between towns on their mobile phone. Which pretty much encapsulates the turn-out accuracy issues we currently experience via MFS comms (& have done so for some years - the Minister has no excuse for not knowing about that).
Who remembers the ambos in the film "The Road to Nhill" ?
A grid reference, even if it is 250M out, is soooo much more exact.
But whatever its shortcomings, the new system is the new national standard.
It _will_ be implemented.
Somehow we have to make it work for us.
Hopefully one or two clever minds have been directed to do just that.