SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: bittenyakka on April 08, 2008, 10:15:22 PM
-
This came up on Ozfire and as that isn't really the right plaec to discuss it i thought i would ask opinions here.
It was directly related to a MVA on the freeway on Monday arvo where I did where PBi gold. Now I have always been told to wear PBi to MVAs what are your thoughts?
-
Well atleast you have PBI....had to borrow some for the house fire we attended today....did BA course middle of last year. I always thought you could only wear it to house/structure fires????
-
I would assume a vehicle fire (wearing BA of course) would constitute the wearing of PBI gold. It seems, as was the case when we were first issued the gear, that Groups and Regions still have their own rules/recommendations for the use of it.
-
Rule of thumb has been non structure fire related Nomex, and anything Structure Fire related ie fixed/private alarms,domestic,brush fence etc PBI.
-
I thought the photo of the firey wearing PBI pants and Nomex? top looked a bit odd. I didnt think you were supposed to do that?
-
Rule of thumb has been non structure fire related Nomex, and anything Structure Fire related ie fixed/private alarms,domestic,brush fence etc PBI.
Is this nomex L1 ie nomex or proban and bushwacker helmet or L3 structual nomex which some of us don't have and is what pbi is replacing?
I thought the photo of the firey wearing PBI pants and Nomex? top looked a bit odd. I didnt think you were supposed to do that?
If it doesn't compremise you saftey why not?
-
nomex is only level 1 until you introduce a liner...
a combination of PBI & nomex would not meet any standard at all, and asides from looking daft wouldnt achieve much i shouldnt think. i would be slightly concerned about it not filling the criteria of 'correct ppe' and the possible implications it would have on any workcover claims, oh/s issues, etc
-
Could all those people who answer yes explain why?
Is it the old argument of "but we may get called to go to something else", or is it more the case that it provides better protection from something at an MVA be it a hazard or the environment?
If it's the latter, could someone explain why non BA trained people should not be afforded the same level of protection?
The fact that people are still debating this after this length of time since PBI was first issued, is a joke. The CFS should have put out a policy BEFORE the uniform was even introduced! The fact they haven't would indicate you can wear it to what you want absent of any other documented procedure laid down by the Group or the brigade.
Does anyone know if the CFS has done the risk assessment yet on the PBI? You know the one that should have been undertaken and lodged before it was purchased...
-
It does tend to be personal preference....based on a case by case decision when your donning your PPE at the station.
Id personally would not like to come from a RCR to a House fire in my Level 1 without liner and get told to don BA and go inside...but i would definitely "think about it" if it was a must (Persons reported)..
Personal safety is after all in individual decision. Just means someone isnt allowed to whinge about getting a tiny bit hotter than usual due to trapped body heats :P
Further to that...i did forget to outline the positives of it at a Road crash incident. Protection from fluids either from the car and/or casualties, Sharps from the car, The Winter coldness and its rain...
-
Further to that...i did forget to outline the positives of it at a Road crash incident. Protection from fluids either from the car and/or casualties, Sharps from the car, The Winter coldness and its rain...
So why should someone who has done BA have a higher level of protection from from sharps, fluids and rain than a member that hasn't?
-
nomex is only level 1 until you introduce a liner...
a combination of PBI & nomex would not meet any standard at all, and asides from looking daft wouldnt achieve much i shouldnt think. i would be slightly concerned about it not filling the criteria of 'correct ppe' and the possible implications it would have on any workcover claims, oh/s issues, etc
I agree.. - Im not really phased which is worn.. - Just dont wear half and half!
-
Thats a tough question to answer Hicks. altho i quite like High Vis Jackets when it comes to on scene presence visibility.
-
The answer hicks is Yes they should have PBi but we don;t have the money and for the time being level 1 is fine but if PBi is avalible to you the added protection zippy mentioned make it worth wearing.
-
Why do people persist with the idea that PBI is structural gear only? It is fire fighter protective clothing. Apart from grass and scrub fire fighting why would you not wear the best gear you can?
Absolutely wear PBI to every single job you can. I'd wear it to a cat up a tree..... :-P
-
SWEET someone else who thinks like I do :-D
-
I've watched one of our snr's almost exhaust himself from heat at a RCR on a 25 degree day wearing PBi and it was only a 20 min cutout, why would you wear it to a non structural job on a screaming hot day??
-
I wouldn't, but as with everything it has it's benefits and costs. in this case protection vs heat and a bit of weight.
However you can easily make simple adjustments to cope eg. if it is a 30+ degree day and you got to a house fire call that extra crew to enable full and appropriate breaks for you crews etc.
-
CFS has been appalling in there issuing of definate guidelines as to the wearing of PBI, this job was meant to be completed almost 18 months ago that im aware of, an absolute embarrasment by technical services, they need a bollocking from above. If we took that long to put together paperwork as critical as this, we would have a please (probably not that polite) explain.
-
In away i fell this thread is a bit stupid that we even need SOP or SOG or rules or what ever on the wearing of uniforms can't we just decide for ourselves?
-
If their wasn't guidelines, the reputation of the service would be pi$$ed out the window in minutes..
- If the thread is a bit stupid, why did you create it??
-
CFS is a joke,no wonder they call us the Clown Fire Service, I love the new poster coming out, Officers Discretion, in other words we can't be bothered making a rule, you guys work it out, and what happens when we get it wrong, can't beleive it took them 3 years to come up with that, yes its been 3 years, I got my PBI in June 2005 !!
-
If their wasn't guidelines, the reputation of the service would be pi$$ed out the window in minutes..
- If the thread is a bit stupid, why did you create it??
At the time i thought it was a good idea and wanted opinions. However it has moved to what have the bosses told us to do.
"we don't know what to do we need to be told rather than think."
yeas some issues NEED guidelines but what uniform to wear? as fire frog said
Why do people persist with the idea that PBI is structural gear only? It is fire fighter protective clothing. Apart from grass and scrub fire fighting why would you not wear the best gear you can?
Absolutely wear PBI to every single job you can. I'd wear it to a cat up a tree..... :-P
-
In away i fell this thread is a bit stupid that we even need SOP or SOG or rules or what ever on the wearing of uniforms can't we just decide for ourselves?
Well for our brigade and others in our Group this has been an issue since PBI was introduced.
There are many in our Group that feel PBI should be worn at all non rural incidents, just for the greater level of protection it affords in a range of situations.
As Hicksflat pointed out though, that does leave some with and some without the increased protection. Not that this is anything new - in my brigade B.A. operators wear structure helmets to all jobs whilst everyone else is issued a rural helmet, so disparity amongst a brigade is not a new issue.
We pushed the point about wearing PBI to jobs a lot in the early days and got shot down severely, our Group Officers then took the issue to the Regional management meetings and we were told that all Region One Group Officers had agreed that until a policy from HQ is put together all brigades in the Region will only wear PBI to structure related incidents, obviously though some groups were still doing there own thing - we probably would have too if it wasn't for our Group Officers pushing us so hard about it.
The problem for us is that we often get turned out to an MVA or rubbish bin fire and then get a run on to a structure related job - so it means carrying two sets of gear to every call. The physical limitations of six crew each with a set of PBI and Nomex are obvious - the space in our 24P cab is small enough as it is.
What do you do??
The worst case scenario for us is to arrive at a going house fire job in Nomex, do you go in wearing PPE that does not meet the Australian Standards and risk an injury or do you wear PBI to all non rural jobs and manage the heat associated issues arising from that - I think I will take the later.
For info the poster that HQ is bringing out on the use of PBI says that you can only wear it to structure related incidents, however the OIC can use their discretion to wear it to any other jobs, I will be exercising my discretion a lot.
One needs to ask why this document wasn't distributed with the gear, it would have saved a few hassles.
-
a combination of PBI & nomex would not meet any standard at all, and asides from looking daft wouldnt achieve much i shouldnt think. i would be slightly concerned about it not filling the criteria of 'correct ppe' and the possible implications it would have on any workcover claims, oh/s issues, etc
Wouldn't meet any standard? I've been led to believe that standards are measured at the weakest point, so if you're wearing a level 1 coat, but PBI pants, you're wearing gear to the level 1 standard. PBI Gold meets, and exceeds the level 1 standard. (It has to in order to meet the level 3 one).
Could all those people who answer yes explain why?
Is it the old argument of "but we may get called to go to something else", or is it more the case that it provides better protection from something at an MVA be it a hazard or the environment?
For me, it's a bit of both. PBI Gold is water proof, and also most-common-chemical proof. It's also more padded for when you're kneeling in oil and coolant setting up stabilisation at an MVA.
I would fully support supplying PBI to all members (ignoring the cost for a moment) - I had a liner for my nomex before I was BA, and I never suffered as a result.
I wear PBI because I find it more comfortable than nomex, more functional in that I don't get wet, I have more pockets & gear loops, and I think it looks a whole lot better than nomex (or proban). I have also never had a problem with overheating.
Id personally would not like to come from a RCR to a House fire in my Level 1 without liner and get told to don BA and go inside...but i would definitely "think about it" if it was a must (Persons reported)..
Personal safety is after all in individual decision. Just means someone isnt allowed to whinge about getting a tiny bit hotter than usual due to trapped body heats :P
Would you also go in if you had no BA on your truck? Why?
I've watched one of our snr's almost exhaust himself from heat at a RCR on a 25 degree day wearing PBi and it was only a 20 min cutout, why would you wear it to a non structural job on a screaming hot day??
I've also seen Seniors and Lieutenants exhaust themselves with heat wearing nomex. How is that different? You work hard at a job, if you're getting too hot, you take a break.
The PBI Pants and Nomex coat idea was floated to deal with the problem of needing to carry 2 sets of gear. the Idea is that if you wear your PBI pants to everything, then you only need to bring a spare coat, rather than a full set.
-
hey all time for my 2 cents worth
where do mfs stand on this matter?? they wear pbi to just about everything!!
they are a fire service and human just like us in the cfs
they suffer just like us and i would guess they just deal with it!!
-
Interesting discussion so far. I'll bite.
Its probably a little different for my brigade, as we have the Rescue truck, the Urban truck, the Rural truck, etc, all with rather defined roles. eg: The pumper rarely turns out as primary to a scrub fire...
Within this framework, I wear PBI to everything, unless I am on one of our rural appliances that has no BA stowage. As far as PBI +Lvl 1 is concerned, the looks may not be great but its functional and as the CFS dropped the ball on PBI I'm happy to wear 1/2 - 1/2, and preferably, just PBI pants and T-Shirt.
In terms of dropping the ball, CFS had a really great opportunity to introduce a lightweight, long sleeve, cotton work shirt to be worn (a la MFS) with the PBI when the conditions dictate that full kit is not required. This helps to combat heat stress issues and looking mildly retarded in a lvl 1 coat, while still maintaining the level of protection necessary for both rural and rescue incidents.
I believe that the CFS minimum PPE for a rescue job is Lvl 1 turnout gear? Correct? Then, our problem is solved. As long as you are wearing something that meets or exceeds the standard, there is no issue. Its like Splash Suits and Gas Suits. As long as you have the minimum, you are only making a choice to increase the level of protection you have. I don't believe that PBI provides any greater protection specifically at rescue incidents and if anything, I think it's bulkier, heavier, hotter and a general pain in the arse as far as rescue is concerned. At work, 100% cotton pants and shirt (+gloves etc etc) is the minimum for any rescue work, and at MVA's the only person in their full turnout gear is the bloke providing fire cover.
I'm all for firefighter safety, but I really don't really agree that going down the path of 'PBI provides better protection at MVA's' is the right way to go, especially when countered with the heat stress argument. The weather protection it gives is great, and wouldn't be an issue if the CFS made raincoats a standard item that didn't need to be fought tooth and nail for.
That said, I do wear my PBI for rescue work, I find that the pants are more comfortable, more durable and more padded for my abused knees. I try to ditch the turnout coat asap, but hey, bring on the work shirts.
Don't forget that the old L3 nomex, was never a complete L3 outfit. Only the turnout coat had the liner...
(unless you are super special or lived at STC)
Cheers!
-
I agree with "Red Message"
We have the gar use it to your personal needs.
I am a yes, I wear most of the time in the winter cos of the reasons members have outlined: More pockets etc, Better on your knees when kneeling at a MVA, Waterproof, Warm on cold night, to name a few.
If our rural jackets eg nomex was the same colour as PBI, I could guarantee that you would wear your PBI L3 pants and Rural Jacket. But because our jackets are canary yellow or Australian gold however you want to look at it we do not.
We want a kit which is multi-purpose not a kit which is limited. I can recall the Mt.Bold fire where our fire appliance arrived on that afternoon to a going structure which probably could of had the damage to the property reduced if we had L3 clothing to enter with our CABA, but as we did not have our PBI all we could do was perform an defensive attack from outside.
You could argue why didn't they take their liner for their nomex (as we use to). I can't answer that question as I do not know.
But if were able to wear a L3 pants which are not hot and actually, majority of your heat dissipates above your waist, wouldn't it be smarter to provide a shirt or similar jacket for wildfire suppression like SAMFS do now. It would make crew members easier to store their PPE on their appliance.
I know from our group we were advised to wear PBI pants to most jobs and take your L1 jacket. I don't fully agree with this idea. But I do agree that in the winter season PBI can be worn due to the climate and conditions.
If we are passionate about our views our ideas it needs to go to V & E and OH&S to provide solutions eg A shirt or a jacket to be worn with the L3 PBI pants. Or not keep waiting for them to give us an answer. Maybe when BC's OH&S reps go to the OH&S safety whatever meeting on the April 28th for Region 1 they can outline this issue.
-
I quite like your idea of a Level 1 Jacket that matchs the PBI Gold Pants, would help cut down the amount of gear required for each volly..and the lower half doesnt tend to have as bad heat stress effect as the top half.
-
It also depends on what the group has made an SOP, and in our case PBI is only worn to structure incidents ie Alarms,Domestic related responses. Everything else is Nomex MVA's,Rural jobs,etc
While I would prefer to wear the best protection available I know wearing PBI on a 40 dgeree day at an MVA would not be comfortable, so an alternate Level 1 clothing is an option CFS should look at, and forget the politics of we dont want to be MFS. Let us decide what we want to wear and go forward.
-
No SA Firey,
Why should we re-invent the wheel.
To often we do something different when we are doing the same jobs.
Eg pumpers, RCR equipment, CABA equipment etc etc etc etc.
If something works and is already designed why not go with it. I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing. And VICE VERSA.
All comes back to this, if our level 1 was the same colour as PBI gold this would not be an issue!!
-
No SA Firey,
Why should we re-invent the wheel.
To often we do something different when we are doing the same jobs.
Eg pumpers, RCR equipment, CABA equipment etc etc etc etc.
If something works and is already designed why not go with it. I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing. And VICE VERSA.
All comes back to this, if our level 1 was the same colour as PBI gold this would not be an issue!!
Here here..
-
...I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing. And VICE VERSA...
Actually, I want to be like the MFS. They are far more professional than the CFS, they have better equipment, they have a union that seems to look after them... Why wouldn't you want to be like them?
(also your post sounds like you disagree with SAFirey, but I think you're arguing the same point...)
-
...I don't think anyone in the CFS wants to be like MFS but if the R & D is already done it is not a bad thing to do what other services are doing. And VICE VERSA...
Actually, I want to be like the MFS. They are far more professional than the CFS, they have better equipment, they have a union that seems to look after them... Why wouldn't you want to be like them?
(also your post sounds like you disagree with SAFirey, but I think you're arguing the same point...)
Here....Here. ;) Good points there Mel.
-
[ PERSONAL PROTECTIVE CLOTHING ROLL-OUT ]
By: Sandy Paterson, Manager Vehicles and Equipment
In early 2006, the Country
Fire Service (CFS)
received funding to roll
out the new PBI Gold
structural firefighting
garments and to provide
wildland garments to replace
older style clothing that is no
longer fit for purpose.
By the end of July 2006,
more than 1,400 sets of
structural garments and
494 sets of wildland garments had
been received and distributed to
brigades, with some additional
garments still to be delivered.
Also being delivered are 1,500
flash hoods to complement the
structural garments.
Delivery of these items will result
in every currently competent CABA
wearer being issued with the latest
quality protective clothing to
improve fire fighter safety.
Standards for PPE
This table provides a quick guide to
assist in determining what may be
used in various circumstances.
All PPE used in CFS must be
certified as compliant with the
appropriate standard.
STANDARD ITEM MAY BE USED IN
AS1801 Type 3 Wildland Helmet All areas except internal
structural firefighting
AS2161.6 Type 1 Wildland Glove Wildland firefighting
AS2161.6 Type 2 or 3 Structural Glove All areas
AS4067 Structural Helmet All areas
AS4821 Type 1 Wildland Boot Wildland firefighting (Includes
Taipan elastic sided boot)
AS4821 Type 2 Structural Boot All areas
AS4824 Wildland Garment All areas except internal
structural firefighting
EN467 Structural Garment All areas except Wildland
firefighting (Lion PBI Gold)
This is from the "Volunteer" Magazine, Vol 115 - September 2006
I thought i remembered reading something about this, previous issues of the volunteer are available for download from the cfs website.
-
AS4824 Wildland Garment All areas except internal
structural firefighting
EN467 Structural Garment All areas except Wildland
firefighting (Lion PBI Gold)
Thats very interesting to know ;)
Thanks for that JJD.
So there we have it, PBI can be worn at every incident, but except "wildfires". End of debate?? lol
-
Not end of the Debate.. - Regions and groups may have seperate rulings.
-
ah darn it *JD returns to Scrubs*
-
Considering that that list contradicts the CFS Headwear policy, I'll stick to using my own common sense.
-
yeah it says i can wear my structure helmet to bushfires? i currently get told off if i do.
-
Unless its paged as a grass fire, i'll wear PBI. If i get hot, i put my level one coat on. I dont have a problem with it.
I can recall the Mt.Bold fire where our fire appliance arrived on that afternoon to a going structure which probably could of had the damage to the property reduced if we had L3 clothing to enter with our CABA, but as we did not have our PBI all we could do was perform an defensive attack from outside.
We have brigade a rule where you take all your gear to all jobs, training etc. Its bulky, but can be shoved it behind seats, hung up, whatever.
-
i get the feeling that that rule is becoming more common. I like it.
-
Well i have taken the attitude of PBI for winter and Nomex (yellows) for summer unless its a predetermined structural response. This not only refers to responses but for training and truck runs etc.
Currently i am receiving alot of crap from my group because of this. What are peoples thoughts on this? Why do people take the opinion that PBI is this emotionally crippled piece of clothing that cant be worn anywhere but structural responses?
I have taken this attitude due to a call last week, which we were responded to a rubbish fire (completely legal in our part of the country, so therefore we were going just to investigate) but in fact this call turned out to be a shed fire. Due to me wearing my yellows i wasnt properly equipped to wear my BA (yes i understand nomex was previously used for ba but for arguements sake lets just keep it to PBI!).
Anyway what are peoples thoughts?
-
I wear it to everything. (Except rural).
My body, my safety, my decision.
-
I wear it to everything. (Except rural).
My body, my safety, my decision.
Geez RescueHazmat you could write Panadol adverts for a living :-D, agree with the sentiments though!
Cheers Jaff
-
personally i would like to wear it to every call at my own discretion...
however, in my group the heirachy and our procedures clearly say only for structure [fire] related responses... and although theres nothing they can really do, people that dont obey get a stern talking too...
-
No SA Firey,
Why should we re-invent the wheel.
To often we do something different when we are doing the same jobs.(quote)
Response from SAFirey
For the record I was'nt asking us to re-invent the wheel, as I and others are working with the SOP's that were stipulated regarding the wearing of PBI......I DONT MAKE THE RULES :-P
-
Jeff, their is no formal SOP in wearing PBI Gold. Only a directive :roll:
-
Jeff, their is no formal SOP in wearing PBI Gold. Only a directive :roll:
Group SOP's
-
im not exactly sure the term GROUP SOP's even exists? mostly "Common Sense" exists within a group...hopefully :wink:
-
group sop's :roll:
-
:roll:
-
Look just wear it too anything till they make their mind up and then tell each region to do the same............. Bring back nomex level 3 gear.....
-
Look just wear it too anything till they make their mind up and then tell each region to do the same............. Bring back nomex level 3 gear.....
At least it was all one colour then :-P
-
Look just wear it too anything till they make their mind up and then tell each region to do the same............. Bring back nomex level 3 gear.....
by the sound of that bill you have never worn it to any thing!!!
those that have worn it and acctually be active involved in any sort of rescue will understand that it is designed for structure fires and not MVA's(to filtered bulky and too filtered hot)
Those people that are saying im going to wear to evey thing should stop trying to make your self appear eletist by trying to stand out. The people that are wearing yellows are still CFS vollies and you are not better than them because you have a BA ticket and thus PBI gold
Pull your heads in!!!!!!
-
seriously man get a life. PBI offers a greater level of protection then any other gear the cfs issue, so why not wear it to anything other than rural? Considering anything other than rural can sometimes include BA?
Its got nothing to do with making ourselves look better than everyone else. Stop trying to stir scheiße!
-
my group has taken the step of when given new yellows all level 1 liners taken back to stores, so my question is
what kind of protection does that provide when doing a mva rescue and the car catches fire??
-
Look just wear it too anything till they make their mind up and then tell each region to do the same............. Bring back nomex level 3 gear.....
by the sound of that bill you have never worn it to any thing!!!
those that have worn it and acctually be active involved in any sort of rescue will understand that it is designed for structure fires and not MVA's(to filtered bulky and too filtered hot)
Those people that are saying im going to wear to evey thing should stop trying to make your self appear eletist by trying to stand out. The people that are wearing yellows are still CFS vollies and you are not better than them because you have a BA ticket and thus PBI gold
Pull your heads in!!!!!!
This isnt only an SACFS board mate. .Its an SAFIREFIGHTER board (everyone seems to think only CFS members read this)..
I have no choice but to wear PBI at work.. Am I trying to stand out by wearing it? .. I think not.. - I also wear it when being a Vol in CFS land.. Am I trying to stand out then?.. Definately not.. - Im wearing what I believe best protects me, and will allow me to do my job to the best of my ability, if and when the need arises..
Think you need to re-consider your closing statement Fox.
-
PBI gold has its place we all just need to agree what jobs should we wear it at...Yes FOX I have woren it while the trial was on and in another service some time ago..But as i said it has its place....
-
I think it is more along the lines of NOT restricting it's use and giving the user their choice of uniform.
I have won it to jobs and yes i have got hot but so? you expect it drink up, call in more crews to rotate etc.
-
I'm with you there RH will at work ive got no choice but with CFS i do, my PBI during winter gets a run to every job due to the fact we have a 0 rural risk, but summer is a completely different story, its a case of if i really have to due to the 45+ degree days up here.
-
Those people that are saying im going to wear to evey thing should stop trying to make your self appear eletist by trying to stand out. The people that are wearing yellows are still CFS vollies and you are not better than them because you have a BA ticket and thus PBI gold
Pull your heads in!!!!!!
Why do you care so much?
We got paged for a fence fire the other night... Prob a nomex job in your eyes, and it was actually a car under a carport. So if i'd used your advice, i would have to have undressed my nomex, got changed into my PBI (which you probably wouldn't have had with you, then donned BA. By then the garage would be gone, and possibly half the house it was attached to. you never know what your going to. Unless its a grass fire on a hot day, i wear pbi. And i always take both sets of gear to everything just incase.
-
Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad. Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.
-
Those people that are saying im going to wear to evey thing should stop trying to make your self appear eletist by trying to stand out. The people that are wearing yellows are still CFS vollies and you are not better than them because you have a BA ticket and thus PBI gold
Pull your heads in!!!!!!
Why do you care so much?
We got paged for a fence fire the other night... Prob a nomex job in your eyes, and it was actually a car under a carport. So if i'd used your advice, i would have to have undressed my nomex, got changed into my PBI (which you probably wouldn't have had with you, then donned BA. By then the garage would be gone, and possibly half the house it was attached to. you never know what your going to. Unless its a grass fire on a hot day, i wear pbi. And i always take both sets of gear to everything just incase.
i wish it was feasible for everyone to take both sets of gear to every job....unfortunately there isnt much room on most trucks.
But i agree with the PBI to everything other than rural. Any different and you leave yourself wide open.
-
developing a matching "level 1" style jacket for the PBI gold Pants would be ideal. One set of pants....and a rural or structure jacket choice when it comes to dressing.
-
Don't sound sensible Zippy, it doesn't suit the CFS way of thinking...
-
developing a matching "level 1" style jacket for the PBI gold Pants would be ideal. One set of pants....and a rural or structure jacket choice when it comes to dressing.
You mean like the MFS work shirts??
-
Don't sound sensible Zippy, it doesn't suit the CFS way of thinking...
:cry: ...sigh time to go to the pub....
-
uniden, close but i was actually thinking about a PBI gold jacket, minus the liner and a more level 1 breathable thickness material.
MFS's idea is good, but i dont think it achieves an appropriate level of protection when it comes to a very active wild fire. Anyone with more knowledge in there ppe? fire away.
-
Isn't the answer very simple........wear the PPE that offers the best protection etc as often as possible........therefore wear PBI to everything except rural jobs during summer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Gday,
Re: Pbi .. We wear it at work all the time ..great gear !
Our "unofficial" policy is
Full Pbi at Structure/Domestic
Pbi pants and blue nomex top at MVA or if driving
Pbi pants and blue nomex top for tech rescue.
I think the half half method is OK because as you all know if you have a CABA qual. then you should have your Pbi with you at all times and the best way to do this is by wearing the pants and taking two jackets and one helmet with you ..
For bushfire "defensive"wear nomex top pbi pants then when the need arises switch jackets..
have been doing it for years no problems and to date do not know of anyone going down with heat exhaustion of the legs..hehe
May look silly to some but I guess were not out there to look good but to protect ourselves to the best standard available.
Cheers
Rainer
-
developing a matching "level 1" style jacket for the PBI gold Pants would be ideal.
I think this is a Bad Idea.
I don't give a rats about 'looking good'. Or even looking uniform.
It's Protective Equipment, not parade gear.
At least while it looks totally different, a crew leader knows who can do what task at
a glance. As in: "You and you - don & start. You & you - get a charged line & RamFan
to that doorway. You - take an axe & a radio around to that window & ventilate when I
call."
cheers
-
yeh your right there, im just seeing it as a method to carry less space consuming gear. 1 Pants, 1 Structure Coat, 1 Rural/Other Coat..while still meeting a Standard of protection. Just like the good old days.
-
i wish it was feasible for everyone to take both sets of gear to every job
Not everyone has both sets of gear which is what the issue here really is. The majority of people here are saying that they want the choice of wearing their PBI to things that dont require PBI. Why shouldn't everyone have that choice?
Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.
Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.
Nomex is worn everywhere now because EVERYONE in the brigade can wear it to everything. At this stage not everyone can wear PBI to everything by the very fact they're not issued with it. Why shouldn't everyone have that choice if as some people claim on here that it provides better protection. Shouldn't everyone have the very best possible protection regardless of the cost? The fact is at some stage there needs to be a decision that any particular bit of equipment is adequate for the function it is intended to provide. Nomex/Proban provides adequate protection for responses to MVA, grass fires, external BA and even internal BA in many instances. So if Nomex/Proban is adequate for MVA's and everyone can wear Nomex/Proban then why shouldn't everyone wear Nomex/Proban? PBI was given to BA trained people for use with BA. If it was intended for anything else it would have been issued to everyone else.
One set of pants....and a rural or structure jacket choice when it comes to dressing.
So what your arguing over here is just a pair of pants? At the moment you have both rural and structural gear its just that they have different sets of pants? Personally I wouldnt want a liner in my rural pants so what we have at the moment is what I want. Two sets of gear with two different functions. I see that as a good thing.
May look silly to some but I guess were not out there to look good but to protect ourselves to the best standard available.
The majority of posts makes some reference to looks in one way or another, and I agree it does look good. But I suspect peoples passion for the uniform and being able to wear it to everything has more to do with wanting to look like a beefcake MFS firefighter and less like a scrawny hick than for functional requirements. If it was about the functional performance of this uniform at "non rural" incidents then people should be jumping up and down about why doesn't EVERY fire fighter have it! But the people with the uniform are more fixated on their own looks rather than the safety of other members.
-
Erm no, I am more worried about getting caught out, are you saying that having 2 jackets and one set of pants and 1 helmet isn't easier than 2 full sets of PPE, 2 helmets. I reckon I can hang the extra jacket over the jesus bar in the crew cab, beats trying to find room for a whole set of gear and another helmet.
By the way, I think PBI looks like scheiße.
-
HF14....i agree PBI should be issued to everyone if it provides better protection.
But in most cases i believe its worn so we dont get caught out. In winter, how often do you attend a rural job? So wearing PBI to everything, especially in winter minimises those chances of getting caught out. Its not practical to carry both sets of gear on the trucks. It creates many issues.
In hind sight the CFS should of created a uniform that was universal across the board. I.e Nomex but stuff that met the Australian Standard.
-
Nomex level 3 did meet our needs and the AUST STAND, but for some reason we got PBI gold and i guess we are stuck with it till there is a change at how we buy things with in the CFS.....
-
Yeah I have a set of Nomex level 3 at work and we wouldn't have bought it if it didn't meet Australian Standards (& that would have been good cause I would have got the$1200 lime green set instead :-D ).
cheers
-
I thought the standard had changed or something, therefore the move to PBI? oh well back to the drawing board.
-
Like I have said, like Rainer has said, and as JC / any one else that has to wear it at work, I think its great. I MUCH prefer it over Nomex. That is my personal opinion based on experience. Everyone will have their own opinions, and so be it.
I do however think the mis-match look is ridiculous (The service does have an image/reputation it 'attempts' to uphold). . However I understand how it saves time / minimises the carrying of extra gear. Lose lose really..
-
Hate to tell you Bill, but your wrong, CFS Nomex level 3 does not meet Australian Standards, it actually never did. To be a true offensive firefighting garment it had to have a thermal and moisture liner in BOTH the pants and jacket. Clearly the CFS Level 3 Nomex didn't come close.
Don't be confused with the fact that Nomex the material meets the standard, just not the original CFS Level 3 Nomex.
Like I have said before, there was a big thing about wearing Nomex to everything when it first came in, I remember my brigade proposed to only carry 4 sets of Nomex on each truck and you put it on if there was a structure fire, now we wear it to everything.
The novelty factor will wear off and no one will care anymore.
-
Thanks for clearing that up mate - not that we need the full capabilities of level 3 gear anyway. Am a bit annoyed it was sold to us fully compliant & it isn't! It certainly meets our needs as is.
cheers
-
Has anyone actualy compared the new nomex stuff to some of the older stuff? The material seems a lot thinner, so probably wouldnt provide as good protection as some of the older stuff anyway, rural or structure.
-
Yeah I would be interested to see a comparison, I am still wearing my first set from 1998, the new stuff "appears" thinner.
-
Hate to tell you Bill, but your wrong, CFS Nomex level 3 does not meet Australian Standards, it actually never did. To be a true offensive firefighting garment it had to have a thermal and moisture liner in BOTH the pants and jacket. Clearly the CFS Level 3 Nomex didn't come close.
Don't be confused with the fact that Nomex the material meets the standard, just not the original CFS Level 3 Nomex.
Like I have said before, there was a big thing about wearing Nomex to everything when it first came in, I remember my brigade proposed to only carry 4 sets of Nomex on each truck and you put it on if there was a structure fire, now we wear it to everything.
The novelty factor will wear off and no one will care anymore.
Hence when you went to Brukunga to do gas prop training, you used their supplied Nomex outfits that had both pants and jackets lined.
-
I remember when we did one of the first compartment courses they told us to wear 2 sets of Nomex, even then it was rather toasty.
-
hicks
it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?
is this right?
because it make no sense it that is the case. i don;t really want to sacrifice my protection so other crew fell better
i wish it was feasible for everyone to take both sets of gear to every job
Not everyone has both sets of gear which is what the issue here really is. The majority of people here are saying that they want the choice of wearing their PBI to things that dont require PBI. Why shouldn't everyone have that choice?
correct so don;t restrict a uniforms use
-
What about the new level 3 nomex gear that is out??
-
What new Level 3 ?
-
bill are you refering to the Lime Green CFA Nomex Gear?
Only the CFS Public Affairs guys and girls have level 1 lime green nomex.
-
I will have to find the paperwork and read it,but there is new nomex level 3 gear around and meets all the AUST STAND,someone on here may know something about it..Was talking to some MFS guys during the week and they only wear the PBI jacket at MVA'S at night to keep them warm,some of the old timers who are station officer dont like it so each to there own.
-
Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.
Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.
Can you justify why you think that's right please?
-
hicks
it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?
is this right?
I am arguing for a rational, consistent CFS policy which includes choice for volunteers. I am supportive of choice where the individuals are informed, capable and willing to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.
Your case requires juggling the cost, risk, benefit, and argument that people trained in BA are more valuable and worthy of protection than someone who is not but is undertaking the same function. I would like to see you make such an argument.
Those that argue that they should wear the gear due to improved protection at incidents such as MVAs should be arguing for everyone to be wearing the gear because of this improved protection.
The argument about being "caughtout" without the gear has some merit however ignores several points. Firstly that Nomex may be warn should PBI not be available with circumstances permitting, secondly that there is always a chance of being "caught out" for something somewhere. Not every appliance carries every bit of equipment and not every member is trained in everything.
Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.
Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.
Can you justify why you think that's right please?
Yes I can.
There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.
As for internal structural fires, while it may be preferable to wear PBI it is acceptable to wear Nomex where the operator is willing to do so. This was even stated officially by the CFS in relation to what happens when the PBI is out for cleaning. All the appropriate risk assessments have been carried out and lodged on the use of Nomex for internal structural use.
Once again its an individual choice that I fully support.
-
There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.
after checking the hazchem codes S,T,Y,Z requires Level 3 Structure PPE. (and id be more inclined to use PBI with its thickness and chemical protection)...
then again....9/10 ill be in a liquid tight suit for a hazmat or in coveralls for zone operating, so level 1 is just fine.
Im another "for" individual choice.
-
So your saying that if PBI is unavailable to the operator and they enter a burning structure, they can do so in Nomex? Despite not meeting AUS standards?
-
hicks
it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?
is this right?
I am arguing for a rational, consistent CFS policy which includes choice for volunteers. I am supportive of choice where the individuals are informed, capable and willing to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.
Your case requires juggling the cost, risk, benefit, and argument that people trained in BA are more valuable and worthy of protection than someone who is not but is undertaking the same function. I would like to see you make such an argument.
Those that argue that they should wear the gear due to improved protection at incidents such as MVAs should be arguing for everyone to be wearing the gear because of this improved protection.
The argument about being "caughtout" without the gear has some merit however ignores several points. Firstly that Nomex may be warn should PBI not be available with circumstances permitting, secondly that there is always a chance of being "caught out" for something somewhere. Not every appliance carries every bit of equipment and not every member is trained in everything.
Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.
Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.
Can you justify why you think that's right please?
Yes I can.
There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.
As for internal structural fires, while it may be preferable to wear PBI it is acceptable to wear Nomex where the operator is willing to do so. This was even stated officially by the CFS in relation to what happens when the PBI is out for cleaning. All the appropriate risk assessments have been carried out and lodged on the use of Nomex for internal structural use.
Once again its an individual choice that I fully support.
Gee, Fire and Rescue at Blackwood would be jaded that PBI came in if its not needed :wink:
I still can't see how a garment that doesn't meet Australian standards can be supported. I think I will be telling my crews to wear the maximum.
-
When PBI was issued no risk assessment had been completed, but when nomex was first issued the risk assessment had been completed.
Which version of PBI do users have ???
hmm which was the version of PBI that caught on fire???
-
Its just old men attitudes, remember most of the people making the choices for us haven't been BA operators since Overalls were all the fad.
Ah well, we all had the same issues when Nomex first came in, "you can't wear it, you can't wear it" Now thats all we wear....give it time, they will get over it.
Whats your point here? I dont think there are any old men saying don't wear PBI when you're doing BA. There are some old men that rightly say you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.
Can you justify why you think that's right please?
Yes I can.
There is no requirement at all for wearing PBI in many instances where BA is used. For example incidents where the fire is in the open or hazmats where there is no risk of fire. So on this fact, the statement that “you dont HAVE to wear PBI when you're doing BA.” is correct.
As for internal structural fires, while it may be preferable to wear PBI it is acceptable to wear Nomex where the operator is willing to do so. This was even stated officially by the CFS in relation to what happens when the PBI is out for cleaning. All the appropriate risk assessments have been carried out and lodged on the use of Nomex for internal structural use.
Once again its an individual choice that I fully support.
You make valid points, but I think it should be acknowledged that we are in a "changeover period" when it comes to our PPE, and while we may have a choice now, (and an officially CFS supported choice), that doesn't mean both options are good choices.
I'd draw a parallel to when BA was first being introduced, (well before my time), I'm sure the policy was "if a BA is available, wear it, but if it's not, hold your breath and go in anyway". Now we insist on BA without exception, and look back at those times pitying the firefighters dieing of lung cancer.
The PBI Gold / Nomex choice may not result in issues as serious as cancer, but it may well be that we look back on this time and wonder why anyone would choose, (or allow their crews to choose), the lower level of protection when a better one was available.
(End of sermon)
-
nice sermon :-)
hicks
it sounds like you are saying that even though i have got Pbi and want to wear it because it offers me better protection i shouldn't because everyone doesn't have it?
is this right?
I am arguing for a rational, consistent CFS policy which includes choice for volunteers. I am supportive of choice where the individuals are informed, capable and willing to be responsible for the consequences of their actions.
Your case requires juggling the cost, risk, benefit, and argument that people trained in BA are more valuable and worthy of protection than someone who is not but is undertaking the same function. I would like to see you make such an argument.
Those that argue that they should wear the gear due to improved protection at incidents such as MVAs should be arguing for everyone to be wearing the gear because of this improved protection.
The argument about being "caughtout" without the gear has some merit however ignores several points. Firstly that Nomex may be warn should PBI not be available with circumstances permitting, secondly that there is always a chance of being "caught out" for something somewhere. Not every appliance carries every bit of equipment and not every member is trained in everything.
I will say of course i would love to have all crews in Pbi but will acknowledge it would cost way to much.
So the crews who are willing to go into structure fires which does have more risk should be afforded better protection.
Next it seems the debate is more of a debate between Nomex with Lvl 3 liner. Well i don;t have that all I have is Pbi and proban and in my opinion proban is not that good. SO due to the fact that many vollies have proban lvl1 lets consider that in comparison to Pbi for these jobs. AND that CANNOT be worn into structure fires.
-
Wait for the new official CFS poster to come out :wink:
-
Which tells you its the officers descission !! Nice one, still tells you nothing.
-
I love hearing about releases.. - Commonly, anything official is usually in Memo, official document, operating procedure guideline, or letter form.. Except the CFS.. - They bring out their 'Official' releases on a 'Poster'.. Reminds me of kindy.. Yay..
-
lol i agree with you RescueHazmat, its a bit rediculous....
id like to every now and then recieve a memo by email similar to firewire from the CEO, and/or other management area's that gives us information of projects that are in the making etc..
-
tells most people exactly what they want to hear i think pumprescue...
sets a guideline of the MINIMUM, but then tells us its the officers discretion whether there crew are allowed to wear more than that minimum...
-
Wait for the new official CFS poster to come out :wink:
We have been waiting for over 2 years , since the guidelines were first discussed and it was agreed that a poster/paper would be produced. Though in Technical Services defence they have been busy quality assuring all the new appliances before they're delivered :|.
Just what do Technical Services do?
-
Who knows Jaff, Who knows... :lol:
sets a guideline of the MINIMUM, but then tells us its the officers discretion whether there crew are allowed to wear more than that minimum...
Geez, the word Minimum when i comes to PPE sounds very criminal...
-
We have been waiting for over 2 years , since the guidelines were first discussed and it was agreed that a poster/paper would be produced. Though in Technical Services defence they have been busy quality assuring all the new appliances before they're delivered :|.
Just what do Technical Services do?
[/quote]
If that was the case then the 34P's would never have been issued to brigades, as they had so many faults to rectify :-P
-
If that was the case then the 34P's would never have been issued to brigades, as they had so many faults to rectify
haha, they started doing this new thing called 'quaility assurance' AFTER they were delievered :lol: Hence why im still puzzled, what on earth did they do in the 12 months prior to them being sent to brigades, while still at IZUZU/Angle Park/Brukunga.
-
We have been waiting for over 2 years , since the guidelines were first discussed and it was agreed that a poster/paper would be produced. Though in Technical Services defence they have been busy quality assuring all the new appliances before they're delivered :|.
Just what do Technical Services do?
If that was the case then the 34P's would never have been issued to brigades, as they had so many faults to rectify :-P
[/quote]
SA Firey, yyyeee...ah sorry about that, without sarcasm or humour my interaction with the rest of society would probably be restricted to low level grunts and glares! :-D
-
haha still waiting
What scares me most is that if CFS announce a new policy it will be way to restrictive in the use of good gear (as it sort of is). Who on earth would want to force that onto us grunts? :?
-
I got told when the PBI first came out unless it is a rural incident you can wear PBI gold to anything, so all the people who are still wearing nomew to MVA's and urban type jobs need to step up to the plate and dress like a fireman.
-
Unfortunately that was not a consistant order between groups :(
-
So basically the new policy coming out in poster form states it is up to the discretion of the OIC of the appliance if they are allowed to wear PBI, regardless of what the group says?
-
Which tells you its the officers descission !! Nice one, still tells you nothing.
Tells you a lot actually.
At the strictly cynical level, it tells you this is a CYA policy where those
further up the food-chain CYA by pushing responsibility & culpability down the
food chain.
On a more realistic level, it tells you that HQ recognise that they cannot fight
all fires with pieces of paper from Waymouth St. It tells you that someone
understands that no two fires or circumstances are the same, and that within broad
guide-lines, much of the detail on how to do so rests with the OIC at the fire on
the day.
As for me, unless my Captain directs me otherwise, I intend to tell my people to
wear the most appropriate PPE for the job. And if possible, bring the other set
along a bag in case the nature of the job changes. 1st responding crew/s won't get
much opportunity to change. Deployment of subsequent crews is more likely to be a
matter of good (or bad) incident management. In the CFS, that now includes
possibility of some crew members re-kitting to meet a changed threat & role.
2.2c
-
I don't quite know what is so very hard to understand about this whole issue. People seem to be a little confused about the old CFS Nomex gear. As there was no liner in the pants, it was not upto standard. With the introduction of PBI it gives us liners in both the pants and the coat. This affords us better thermal protection and insulation (both a good and bad thing). This is not to say Nomex with the liner is bad gear. Yeah, its a little hotter to do CFB in, but its not as though you explode in a ball of flame when you wear it as some people seem to suggest.
Why the official policy cannot be along the lines of setting a minimum standard for indicents, but if either the wearer or OIC believes that the conditions dictate a higher level of protection then it can be implemented. Its much like other services interstate issuing flashoods for rural applications, but here they are still structural gear. As long as you meet the minimum standard there shouldn't be a problem.