SA Firefighter

General Discussion => Incident Operations => Topic started by: jason on November 27, 2009, 02:47:33 PM

Title: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: jason on November 27, 2009, 02:47:33 PM
MFS: *CFSRES INC047 27/11/09 12:39,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,42 LIGHT CR,MT BARKER MAP 173 C 11 TG128,CNR WITH SEEKER AVE. WELL ALIGHT REPORTE,D,NAIR00 LTHT00

MFS: *CFSRES INC047 27/11/09 12:53,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,42 LIGHT CR,MT BARKER MAP 173 C 11 TG128,LARGE PAINT SHED ALIGHT CNR SECKER RD. A,SSIST OTHER BRIGADES. BA CREWS REQUIRED,ECHG00 BRDG00 OAKB00

Looks Like Barker have had a busy day - 6 calls so far including the factory fire....
Not good that so many Support brigades had crewing issues/ lack of BA ops...
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 27, 2009, 03:59:40 PM
Yeah looks like they didn't have much in the way of BA backup, but most of the CFS is in a bad way when it comes to BA, something that needs to be looked at rather urgently.

You would almost have to wonder, with all the stuffing around getting crews together, would it really take someone like Glen Osmond that long to get there.

Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 27, 2009, 05:34:49 PM
sigh
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Pipster on November 27, 2009, 10:39:42 PM
What did Heysen Group do to get spanked so badly today with calls right across their Group area?    :evil:

Pip
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: big bronto on November 28, 2009, 07:22:12 AM
Yesterday was another situation that highlighted SA needing some sort of paid fire service in large country centres to get a sufficient response for fires.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 28, 2009, 08:37:50 AM
From what i heard, Mt Barker themselves did a fine job of crewing,  it was the support responders from 2nd and 3rd alarm brigade's that had crewing issues...The brigades NOT in the large country centres.

Mt Barker, Good job on Crewing.

If it was paid service, the only thing you will improve, is having a single appliance ready on standby all the time...or in Mt Gambier's example, day time only.


So, to the support brigades, keep getting members trained in BA...and more of them,  reach your SFEC maximum.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 28, 2009, 08:46:08 AM
Thats the hassle, we aren't allowed to reach our maximum, and if your minimum is there and not many of them are around in the day, then this will continue to happen.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: jason on November 28, 2009, 09:42:36 AM
Yeah looks like they didn't have much in the way of BA backup, but most of the CFS is in a bad way when it comes to BA, something that needs to be looked at rather urgently.

You would almost have to wonder, with all the stuffing around getting crews together, would it really take someone like Glen Osmond that long to get there.

I heard both barker trucks arrive within 5min... Glen Osmond would have been the third arriving appliance if they were called straight up.. bit scary… Talking to barker guys they had to "Dig in" for a while before they got some help. Guess that’s what happens when they have to prop up so many other brigades during the day. It’s a big area to cover…. . I don’t know how they manage to do it all the time. CFS need to look at something… take some pressure of the Brigade…
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 28, 2009, 10:54:46 AM
Yes its not a good situation, a large town like that relying on fairly limited numbers and limited resources (lets face it a 34P and a Type 2 is hardly adequate) and limited back up, like you said, if 441 was turned out straight after arrival they would have arrived 3rd !
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: tft on November 28, 2009, 12:22:47 PM

Quote

Talking to barker guys they had to "Dig in" for a while before they got some help.
LMAO - What was it John Wayne Time?
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: crashndash on November 28, 2009, 06:59:21 PM
From what i heard, Mt Barker themselves did a fine job of crewing,  it was the support responders from 2nd and 3rd alarm brigade's that had crewing issues...The brigades NOT in the large country centres.

Mt Barker, Good job on Crewing.

If it was paid service, the only thing you will improve, is having a single appliance ready on standby all the time...or in Mt Gambier's example, day time only.


So, to the support brigades, keep getting members trained in BA...and more of them,  reach your SFEC maximum.

Zippy.....thats the most sensible post i have seen on this site in ages......great perspective.....paid mfs in Barker = 4 firefighters and one truck....a reduction in service.....

now be a good boy and enough of the sensible posts....you'll get a bad name  :lol:
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: wayjax on November 28, 2009, 08:29:01 PM
the barker boys again did a great job, its the support that is lacking again, they even managed to have there 24 be first arrival at the Barker Junction fire and supporting appliances for this fire had to be released from the commercial fire as other brigades paged could not crew.

but the lads at barker cannot be expected to keep this up in the long term
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 28, 2009, 09:08:13 PM
Come on CFS, stand up and give the guys at Barker a hand.....all you seem to do is give them a hard time!
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: tft on November 29, 2009, 07:50:54 AM
Why did some firefighters not have PBI on when using BA?
Was it because it takes forever for PBI to be returned when getting cleaned?
How hard would it be to have a few spare set at the station, oh that right we don't have enough BA operators anyway
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: SA Firey on November 29, 2009, 08:48:18 AM
Interesting that despite reports on the initial page that the building was "well alight" more brigades were not turned out straight away, being a paint factory and the potential for a major hazmat job to evolve had things gone pear shaped. :-o
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: pumprescue on November 29, 2009, 08:50:30 AM
More brigades were not turned out ? 2nd alarm on arrival, not that it did much good for all that rocked up !

The deputy Chief attended, wonder how much notice he will take of proceedings.

Hats off to Mt Barker for the work they did.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: tft on November 29, 2009, 08:59:38 AM
Tough question to answer about the building was "well alight" from a phone call.
I have been to calls before that this has been stated "well alight"
and it has been nothing.
I have also been to calls on the way to the job 2nd Alarm have been called due to the large amounts of smoke showing.
Also  firefighters have rang 000 and say that the job should be a 2nd Alarm and the response has been wait till the fire service arrives, they will make the decision. I guess they get a few MFA's
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: SA Firey on November 29, 2009, 09:20:30 AM
Congrats to the barker boys for doing the hard yards, even though they were called after the initial page.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: icur12 on November 29, 2009, 09:57:52 AM
Barker boys do very well.

Jason/Darren - What are you alluding to with 'CFS need to look at something… take some pressure of the Brigade…' and 'all you seem to do is give them a hard time'.
What is happening?  What is the solution?
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 29, 2009, 11:10:28 AM
From what i heard, Mt Barker themselves did a fine job of crewing,  it was the support responders from 2nd and 3rd alarm brigade's that had crewing issues...The brigades NOT in the large country centres.

Mt Barker, Good job on Crewing.

If it was paid service, the only thing you will improve, is having a single appliance ready on standby all the time...or in Mt Gambier's example, day time only.


So, to the support brigades, keep getting members trained in BA...and more of them,  reach your SFEC maximum.

Zippy.....thats the most sensible post i have seen on this site in ages......great perspective.....paid mfs in Barker = 4 firefighters and one truck....a reduction in service.....

now be a good boy and enough of the sensible posts....you'll get a bad name  :lol:

Thanks,  i hear crap being given about brigades like barker the like....even within my own brigade,  it gets me fuming because they have no understanding....

It all comes back to this, Yes we are volunteers, but we should relise entirely "We are THE Fire Service".   The public rely on us.   We are the public, that decide to be replied upon.



Best solution, you have a brigade of trained and enthusiastic volunteer firefighters, whats the cheapest way of improving it...   Better appliances & Retaining those existing firefighters (Not starting up a new retained brigade from scratch).  ...then employ more retained firefighters.

Mt Barker can easily gain a 4th appliance and crew it then....that cover's 2 alarms.


Dad's army, no more.


And CrashNDash....Too right about the "bad name" if you say sensible things...I'm over caring about that..
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: uniden on November 29, 2009, 07:51:39 PM


I heard both barker trucks arrive within 5min... Glen Osmond would have been the third arriving appliance if they were called straight up.. bit scary… Talking to barker guys they had to "Dig in" for a while before they got some help. Guess that’s what happens when they have to prop up so many other brigades during the day. It’s a big area to cover…. . I don’t know how they manage to do it all the time. CFS need to look at something… take some pressure of the Brigade…
[/quote]

MFS Stations do use CFS to back them up when they are much closer than other MFS stations..
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: crashndash on November 29, 2009, 07:57:25 PM
And CrashNDash....Too right about the "bad name" if you say sensible things...I'm over caring about that..

ahhh...keep the faith Zipster....all will be good in the end
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 29, 2009, 08:17:12 PM
And CrashNDash....Too right about the "bad name" if you say sensible things...I'm over caring about that..

ahhh...keep the faith Zipster....all will be good in the end

I'm putting a decade deadline on that...
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: tft on November 30, 2009, 06:27:25 AM
The CFS has a duty of care
So not having back up is a problem. The best short term answers is
The Group Officer ask Barker can you crew another appliance. If
the answer is yes, take another appliance from a brigade within
the group that can't crew it.
So it gets a brigade upset they are down an appliance, that they can't crew anyway. It might change a few brigades to get it together
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: jaff on November 30, 2009, 06:38:49 AM
Can you spell.....A M A L...G A M A...T I O N? :evil:
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darius on November 30, 2009, 07:02:46 AM
MFS Stations do use CFS to back them up when they are much closer than other MFS stations..

sometimes they do, sometimes not. Eg. the second alarm at Mitcham the other day went to MFS from Adelaide, Paradise, Prospect etc and no CFS at all were called even though Sturt group brigades and Burnside are closer and appropriate.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 30, 2009, 07:09:46 AM
MFS Stations do use CFS to back them up when they are much closer than other MFS stations..

sometimes they do, sometimes not. Eg. the second alarm at Mitcham the other day went to MFS from Adelaide, Paradise, Prospect etc and no CFS at all were called even though Sturt group brigades and Burnside are closer and appropriate.


thats boms for ya...

Now whats the SOP Number for CFS's default policy??? Add SACAD to the mix....i think Mt Barker may get its backup sooner...
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: tft on November 30, 2009, 09:22:26 AM
Jaff, my post said the short term answer is to move an appliance.
Anything like an amalgamation in the CFS will take forever
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 30, 2009, 09:39:05 AM
Jaff, my post said the short term answer is to move an appliance.
Anything like an amalgamation in the CFS will take forever

It will take a total of 8 commitee meetings, 4 group commitee meetings, 2 RVMC meetings, a COAC meeting....then followed by 12 more commitee meetings....

Its 2009 now, so that makes it.....2011.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: jaff on November 30, 2009, 09:44:20 AM
Jaff, my post said the short term answer is to move an appliance.
Anything like an amalgamation in the CFS will take forever


Agreed! But an additional Urban appliance is the preferred option!

Forever has no end date, I think amalgamation will be progressed way faster than that, sorta like a parting gift I rekon!
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 30, 2009, 09:50:06 AM
Jaff, my post said the short term answer is to move an appliance.
Anything like an amalgamation in the CFS will take forever


Agreed! But an additional Urban appliance is the preferred option!

Forever has no end date, I think amalgamation will be progressed way faster than that, sorta like a parting gift I rekon!


Just have to send a page to CFS R1 Info with  "MBRK: R1 Staff Alpha 24 Respond 3rd alarm...We need your help now."

;)
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 30, 2009, 09:58:32 AM
Just send an all region page "anyone near this fire, go now"
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on November 30, 2009, 12:16:38 PM
Wonder if CFA will share any spare pumpers...
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 30, 2009, 01:34:03 PM
Barker boys do very well.

Jason/Darren - What are you alluding to with 'CFS need to look at something… take some pressure of the Brigade…' and 'all you seem to do is give them a hard time'.
What is happening?  What is the solution?

From what I know and from the time I spent there, there is little support from the staff, in regards to appropriate resources, help to recruit, help with specialist equipment, training, risk planning etc.

I know we keep singling Mt Barker out as a case, but they are the most prominent.

I know that they don't have the crew levels of the past, and they lost a large number of appliances over the years to their present 3 trucks.

But it seems that CFS seem more interested in picking up on the faults, than helping fix the glaring issues that affect the town.

For starters the appliance make up isn't right.

1 pumper that also doubles as the Rescue appliance. Doesn't have enough equipment to do anything properly.
They are the busiest RCR brigade by a long way, the stats don't lie. They are on a major highway and had their air bags taken off them, I was there when it happened, complete insanity!! Couldn't fit the stokes litter on, were told just bring it on another truck, and besides "you only want that so you can carry your gear" I mean really!!

That town is clearly a 2 pumper town, no ifs or butts, the amount of boosting, multiple calls occasions, the support requirements for out of town etc etc Yet there is a truck at Hahndorf that doesn't do anything, in fact I was there when we borrowed it whilst the infamous Dennis was offline, and the water was jet black !

You would think having the region in the town would help, it almost seems they try their hardest to not help Mt Barker.

The gas leak job, instead of helping, they undermine the brigade and go down after with monitoring gear which the brigade should have anyway. Not to mention having the specialist skills and training would help identify problems like that!

Just constant crap like that, a brigade like that in a high profile town should have anything and everything.
Like was proven the backup isn't there.

All brigades have issues of recruiting etc, but on the coal face there appears to be little if any help, or you have to almost abuse someone or bypass the chain of command to get anything done!

If I was a ratepayer and levy payer I would be scared, I know we are only volunteers, but that doesn't mean you can smile and give us a medal and hope we go away we also have business's and homes in these towns! We want the best for the people we protect.

I know a fulltime crew wouldn't help, but they would almost be better off handing it over to the MFS and tell them to staff it. Then the CFS wouldn't have the liability and the poor beaten officers at Mt Barker can take it easy.

I know the ministers office and CFS monitor this site.

How about some help, if I cop it from you for saying what I think, then so be it, you will just lose another volunteer, why do we keep putting ourselves through this crap, because we care, and keep putting up with a sub standard fire service because no one else will do it. We get told we have no money, well that only works for so long, how about standing up for your service, tell them the real state of our once proud organisation. We don't have the resources on the ground we used to, helicopters don't put out house fires, or cut people from cars, or check the quality alarm systems! It makes me sick when I think what we could purchase for the contract cost of the Erickson Aircrane!

THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN BUSHFIRES !!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Chinny on November 30, 2009, 01:55:49 PM
HERE! HERE! Darren for Premier!

I think that was one of the best reads on this site!
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on November 30, 2009, 02:49:07 PM
Calm down, not everyone likes me.....I just have opinions  :-)
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: 6739264 on November 30, 2009, 11:23:51 PM
Yesterday was another situation that highlighted SA needing some sort of paid fire service in large country centres to get a sufficient response for fires.

Chirst would someone tell the MFESB that they've got our damn Grand Prix, so can they leave poor SA alone? Mind you, if you went to the UFU about it...

Mt Barker can easily gain a 4th appliance and crew it then....that cover's 2 alarms.


Dad's army, no more.


And CrashNDash....Too right about the "bad name" if you say sensible things...I'm over caring about that..

You're only getting a bad name because of the lack of sensible things...

Are you actually suggesting that:

A crew and appliance that can be on scene before the current crew get to the station
A guaranteed response, with guaranteed CABA/Rescue operators
Appliances that are built for the risk they are covering
Pumping and Aerial appliances

Is a REDUCTION in service? Do you want to rethink that "Sensible" word again?

How does Mt. Barker with 4 appliances equate to a self sustained 2nd alarm Structural response? Go read your books again! Its not just about the number of appliances, but also CABA and crew...

Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: BundyBear on December 01, 2009, 12:08:49 AM
I'm not doubting the crew at Mount Barker do anything but a sterling effort but why is there such an out cry from punters on here about having MFS (paid) in such a large country town. So what if a paid station costs money is that not a bad thing to create employment and take some of the heat off the CFS guys at Barker.

Pity CFS corporate does not push for paid or retained CFS stations, there is only so much you can expect for free!
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: big bronto on December 01, 2009, 08:25:19 AM
Yesterday was another situation that highlighted SA needing some sort of paid fire service in large country centres to get a sufficient response for fires.

Chirst would someone tell the MFESB that they've got our damn Grand Prix, so can they leave poor SA alone? Mind you, if you went to the UFU about it...

Interesting comment go to the UFU about it well it seems to work and they are getting good pay, conditions and manning in Victoria


Mt Barker can easily gain a 4th appliance and crew it then....that cover's 2 alarms.

What is Mt Barker getting a 4th appliance going to solve. For example the day of this 3rd alarm they had a manning of 7 on 2 trucks. say it was the day before or a week later and they only had a manning of 2 and there back up was the same then I am sure the business owners around that industrial estate would be a tad worried this is there coverage. Mt Barker will eventually have to staff 2 trucks with the MFS to cover both the town and surrounding rescue area. Meadows, stirling, lobethal, strath ses and even mt barker have struggled to provide sufficient rescue crews in the past year during the day. Take CFA for example they will have up to 2000 staff in Victoria to not only support majors towns but to respond up to 30km out of their primary area to support the volunteers.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: 6739264 on December 01, 2009, 02:29:53 PM
Interesting comment go to the UFU about it well it seems to work and they are getting good pay, conditions and manning in Victoria.

If you glance skyward, you may notice my point passing over your head at its cruising altitude of around 30,000ft
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: F7 on December 07, 2009, 08:39:24 PM
I am not sure of how many of you were there but for those of us who were it was noticed that nairne followed barkers second truck in wich had BA wearers on it, these people were the 3rd team to go onto the scene wearing BA. I will admit there were a few other brigades who did not bring the required BA users and took a long time to arrive, you will also find that nairne and barker get along very well and we even have members who are with both brigades so if you want the truth ask them.

Regarding the grass fire at blakiston on norriss rd there were a few appliances who were tied up at the factory fire and had to make up and then leave the scene and go mobile, It was also noticed that as nairne and echunga appliances were very and i mean very close behind barker 24 and it is common sense not to overtake another appliance to a job hence why nairne stayed behind barker 24.

Just my thoughts
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: uniden on December 09, 2009, 05:51:49 PM
Yesterday was another situation that highlighted SA needing some sort of paid fire service in large country centres to get a sufficient response for fires.

Chirst would someone tell the MFESB that they've got our damn Grand Prix, so can they leave poor SA alone? Mind you, if you went to the UFU about it...

Interesting comment go to the UFU about it well it seems to work and they are getting good pay, conditions and manning in Victoria


Mt Barker can easily gain a 4th appliance and crew it then....that cover's 2 alarms.

What is Mt Barker getting a 4th appliance going to solve. For example the day of this 3rd alarm they had a manning of 7 on 2 trucks. say it was the day before or a week later and they only had a manning of 2 and there back up was the same then I am sure the business owners around that industrial estate would be a tad worried this is there coverage. Mt Barker will eventually have to staff 2 trucks with the MFS to cover both the town and surrounding rescue area. Meadows, stirling, lobethal, strath ses and even mt barker have struggled to provide sufficient rescue crews in the past year during the day. Take CFA for example they will have up to 2000 staff in Victoria to not only support majors towns but to respond up to 30km out of their primary area to support the volunteers.


Dont they have people on a roster system to guarantee minimum manning on their appliances ? (Barker) Or am I missing something here.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Darren on December 09, 2009, 06:46:41 PM
They do after 2000 hrs until 0800 in the morning.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: Zippy on December 09, 2009, 07:12:27 PM
Rostering System obviously does two things...ensure's crew's...Let's the others sleep till A shift responded.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: 6739264 on December 10, 2009, 11:27:59 AM
"In theory" it allows for a minimum crew. There are still times when they are very, very light on.
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: crashndash on December 10, 2009, 01:21:26 PM
"In theory" it allows for a minimum crew. There are still times when they are very, very light on.
so that would be a minimum of 4 crew would it?....the same as the jaffa coloured pumpers?......and light on means they cant provide MORE than 4?

so light on for crew = not being able to provide MORE than them what some want to replace them with?....interesting logic that
Title: Re: 3rd Alarm Factory Fire Mt Barker
Post by: 6739264 on December 11, 2009, 11:27:20 AM
"In theory" it allows for a minimum crew. There are still times when they are very, very light on.
so that would be a minimum of 4 crew would it?....the same as the jaffa coloured pumpers?......and light on means they cant provide MORE than 4?

so light on for crew = not being able to provide MORE than them what some want to replace them with?....interesting logic that

No, that would be "In theory it allows for a minimum of 4 crew" but there are times when it falls below that.

And don't forget some want to replace them with atleast four dudes sitting at the station, not 4+ minutes away ;)