SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Fire Fighter Training => Topic started by: bajdas on June 12, 2009, 06:45:22 PM
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This question did not seem to fit in the other discussions, so I started a new thread. If the moderators wish to combine, then go for it.....
I noticed this pager message tonight:
17:48:48 12-06-09 Ncte GCC: Could we have a few members come down and tidy up the station at 18.30hrs for SES training tonight thanks. <name>. 12/06/2009 CFS Naracoorte Info
I have done basic bushfire awareness training within SES that was delivered by Meadows CFS. So the same methods were taught to both services. The same with AIIMS.
Does the above pager message mean that vertical rescue people from any service are using the same training methods ?
I hope so....
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They well could be at long last......
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the SES are running a vertical rescue course at the cfs state training center early next month after many months/years of fighting the cfs/ses have organised it. YA i hear that naracoorte and robe cfs brigades are happy to have some thing organised finally. lets hope it is the start of many more decisions that make sense. lets stop all the infighting with in the fire and rescue services.
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amen to that! :-) about time!
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So who gets on this course? Or is it an 'initial' course for the privileged STC mongs?
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Naracoorte and Robe will be doing it this weekend at STC,as both these brigades are rope rescue brigade's,I think and I am sure someone will correct me there are only 7/9 approved rope rescue brigade's within CFS.
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Naracoorte and Robe will be doing it this weekend at STC,as both these brigades are rope rescue brigade's,I think and I am sure someone will correct me there are only 7/9 approved rope rescue brigade's within CFS.
Bill will CFS be trained in the single 11mm rope system SES use or the twin 13mm rope system SAMFS use?
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If there smart they will go the twin rope system.
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Bill will CFS be trained in the single 11mm rope system SES use or the twin 13mm rope system SAMFS use?
I don't know what they're teaching on current courses, but previous SACFS courses have taught the twin rope system.
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L hear that a Mt Lofty brigade has also done some twin rope training last year.I think it is Bridgewater as I remember seeing something about them using it at a chimmney fire recently? But I understand they did it off their own back to protect their members when working @ heights.
I say good on them!
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L hear that a Mt Lofty brigade has also done some twin rope training last year.I think it is Bridgewater as I remember seeing something about them using it at a chimmney fire recently? But I understand they did it off their own back to protect their members when working @ heights.
I say good on them!
The two rope rescue brigades in Mt Lofty Group are Burnside and Stirling, and they have been for some time. I haven't heard anything about Bridgewater being trained. (remember if it was a going fire, most brigades in Lofty Group would have been there :P )
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Bridgater are rope trained but on a limited basis & have done this for uses such as working at heights eg of roofs & ladders.
I hear from a good source that they are thinking about expanding their training this year to incorporate stretchers pulley systems etc.
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Is it just me, or is it becoming to hard to fight fires now.....think its time to go fishing and leave the regional staff to it...which seems to be the trend these days.
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Bridgater are rope trained but on a limited basis & have done this for uses such as working at heights eg of roofs & ladders.
I hear from a good source that they are thinking about expanding their training this year to incorporate stretchers pulley systems etc.
I wonder why Bridgewater would put such an emphasis on rope rescue, I can understand the working at heights but have they got a large number of risks in there area? Big call to justify the cost of initial training, skills maintenance training and the cost of initial equipment set up and the on-going replacement of equipment.
It does worry me a bit some brigades going out and doing things off their own backs if this is the case. You have to ask will these brigades be located strategically to benefit other brigades and the community or is it the case of just buying some bling!!!
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Bundy....yeah actually they do, and many of the hills Brigades have similar issues....big 2 or 3 story homes cut into the side of a hill....access to the roof one side isnt too bad....the other, big drop off on the low side.
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Bundy....yeah actually they do, and many of the hills Brigades have similar issues....big 2 or 3 story homes cut into the side of a hill....access to the roof one side isnt too bad....the other, big drop off on the low side.
Yeah fair enough Crashndash thats working at heights not a rope rescue job!
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You have to ask will these brigades be located strategically to benefit other brigades and the community or is it the case of just buying some bling!!!
If it is just the bling, is that a problem if they have the money and dedication? I'd argue it's not.
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You have to ask will these brigades be located strategically to benefit other brigades and the community or is it the case of just buying some bling!!!
If it is just the bling, is that a problem if they have the money and dedication? I'd argue it's not.
So the foundation for your hypothesis if brigades have the money (a few) and the dedication (most) they can go out and buy what they want and do what they want, that's a sound arguement?
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You have to ask will these brigades be located strategically to benefit other brigades and the community or is it the case of just buying some bling!!!
If it is just the bling, is that a problem if they have the money and dedication? I'd argue it's not.
So the foundation for your hypothesis if brigades have the money (a few) and the dedication (most) they can go out and buy what they want and do what they want, that's a sound arguement?
"Buy what they want and do what they want" is a little different to "get trained and equipped for rope rescue". If a brigade has the money and dedication, then furthering their Fire Service related skills and equipment is a good thing.
Rope rescue skills aren't limited to mine shafts and cliffs - they can be applied in situations involving high roofs, steep slopes, even fast flowing water or slippery surfaces. - All of which are probably quite common in Bridgewater (for example).
Having rope rescue as a discipline in a brigade will also add variety to training and help keep the 'younger' generation interested.
I certainly don't think brigades should go out and buy anything or do what they want, but I think there are plenty of things they can buy, or train in that aren't a problem.
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Here is some information you may be interested in - it is for information only and not a comment on whether or not a brigade should or shouldn't be training for operations that they have not been asked to do by their parent organisation :wink:
A major review of current rescue from height & depths & disaster rescue techniques was conducted by "an emergency service" after serious concerns were raised regarding current techniques. I have read the review & its recommendations. If these recommendations are adopted in full, there are some major implications regarding current techniques & equipment. This review includes the use of the following techniques;
• Improvised single point lowering
• 2 point lower
• 4 point lower
• Ladder hinge
• Ladder slide
• “A” Frames
• Tripods
However not vertical rescue, SES types would recognise these techniques from the Heights & depths & disaster rescue techniques. We (NSW) are currently waiting for the re-write of the General rescue package.
Secondly rescue by rope in fast flowing water is swift water rescue, we do the course at the Olympic swift water course at Penrith & its only the basic course! I would be very careful doing any training with an organisation (including an RTO)that does not have this particular course in their scope. Anyway thats all I have on this subject - regards
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Well said Chook rescues from cliffs as stated by CFS firey would be rope rescue, mine shaft's would come under Confined Space Entry Rescue and water would be Swift Water Rescue all of which are seperate disciplines.
I'm not intending to have a go at anyone I've just seen evidence in the past when brigades have gone out and done things in the past i.e. buy disc cutters and positive pressure ventilation fans, one of the brigades I've been with has been guilty of and there has been no real systems in place to manage training, maintenance etc properly. Another concern is looking at the bigger picture could there be another brigade that needs this training first as they've got a higher risk in there area.
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Well said Chook rescues from cliffs as stated by CFS firey would be rope rescue, mine shaft's would come under Confined Space Entry Rescue and water would be Swift Water Rescue all of which are seperate disciplines.
I'm not intending to have a go at anyone I've just seen evidence in the past when brigades have gone out and done things in the past i.e. buy disc cutters and positive pressure ventilation fans, one of the brigades I've been with has been guilty of and there has been no real systems in place to manage training, maintenance etc properly. Another concern is looking at the bigger picture could there be another brigade that needs this training first as they've got a higher risk in there area.
ahh yes...lets never seek out and force the CFS to give us modern and up to date equipment...instead we could sit back, in ignorant bliss, safe in the knowledge that the CFS will always do the right thing by us
Bundy, if we didnt have Brigades doing exactly that and forcing the issues, we'd still be taking dakkah dakkah pumps and knapsacks to structure fires like in the bad old days....its not perfect, but eventually the service catches up when its shamed into it. Deal with it
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I think you're missing my point Crash there are avenues that can be taken to implement new equipment and technologies into service and I'm all for that. (example the new Stab-fast stabilisation kits)
So when these CFS brigades go and buy new items of equipment off their own backs has there been a needs analysis and a dynamic risk assessment completed.
Is there certified training so in the case of a catastrophic failure they are covered under the OHS&W act. Do they know what is involved in the skills maintenance program to keep operators current, is all this conducted like a professional service? (example all those brigades that bought PPV's fans a while ago no training course available from CFS!)
Then who pays for the training to keep operators current or initial course for new firefighters as CFS brigades always suffer natural attrition of staff or is it a case of a bunch of lads at a station saying we have this amount of funding what can we put on our wish list. I dare say the latter as I've seen it done before!
As for the last paragraph might give that a miss, a little melodramatic!
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Well said Bundy couldn't agree more! Wonder if those who promote the "go your own way" school of thought would expect official support when their arses are dragged into court when things go wrong! Glad you mentioned Stabfast - I was trained on them when I was in Barmera, but when I was transfered to Berri we were not allowed to have them (they were sitting in a container in our yard) until we (whole team) did the training course & it was signed off! (Very frustrating at the time).
What you have said is in line with a professional, safe organisation & rather than a mob of cowboys! However I do think professional emergency services should always be on the look out for new equipment & techniques, trial them & introduce them (if suitable) in a suitable time frame (new technology cutters come to mind) to all of those teams that require them.
cheers
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ok i am going to play too
Glad you mentioned Stabfast - I was trained on them when I was in Barmera, but when I was transfered to Berri we were not allowed to have them (they were sitting in a container in our yard) until we (whole team) did the training course & it was signed off! (Very frustrating at the time).
there are many courses and many volunteers although in a perfect world it would be nice to see this system work but if we waited for everyone to be trained to the same standard i don't think many brigades could respond. This may be just because some people can;t come to simple weekly training all the time for completely normal reasons. And it is not just complex rescue ideas that i am referring to as much as where stuff is on a truck. I know it sounds stupid but it seems to be true.
Bundy
It would be a perfect world if CFS staff were producing risk assessments and training packages for every gadget that came out but that, as i would assume you agree, is impossible. So brigades like Bridgewater who have the will to make this money should fully be able to use that to further the service and full points to them for having the guts and time to do most of it properly.
Of course maybe if it was easier for vollies to be a part of developing new procedures etc or there was more staff this wouldn't be an issue.
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CFS staff do produce risk assessments on all new appliances and equipment they have. From there the Fire Ground Practices are written and training modules are developed to capture the elements of competency required. Example the reciprocating saws!
Nothing is stopping individual brigades from doing risk assessments does not every brigade have and OHS&W rep?
I'm not going to hightlight Bridgewater with their rope rescue aspirations as I don't fully know their stance and what they're up to.
I've seen brigades go and buy PPV fans and disc cutters with no formal training. The training is done in house and does not really meet any training frameworks and off they go down the street and use this gear. With Region having no idea they have this equipment.
As for having the guts to go out and buy and use this equipment in such a way you need to take the emotion out of the argument and consider the "What ifs" like injuries and possible fatalities from using equipment without proper training (initial and skills maintenance), knowledge on the fireground and proper maintenance knowledge of this equipment.
All I am trying to get across is, brigades that can afford resources outside of the normal equipment issue have they considered is it going to benefit the community they respond in, will it aid other brigades and other emergency services in there area. Will we have funding in the future for initial and re-accreditation training, equipment replacement. Did they consult the chain of command?
You get this wrong and you'll be hung out by CFS management above and you'll be fair game for inspectors from Safework SA.
One thing we can't argue about is the passion for the job from CFS guys!
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the trouble is that all of you are right.
It's an unfortunate fact of life now that risk assessments and all that paperwork bs need to be done. Of course in the past a brigade always did one anyway, it's just that it consisted of a discussion round the bar about benefits vs dangers/costs.
Something the CFS does very badly is introducing new "stuff", whether that's equipment (like PPV fans, radios etc), improved methods of operation, training etc. Most of the time it seems to me it's either foisted on CFS by external forces (eg. CRD changeover to MFS) or pushed and pushed by volunteers (eg. a brigade/group buys something themselves, eg. defibs, TIMS) until eventually it's officially adopted. Very rarely it seems is something new thought up by HQ and trialled - this is happening a bit more now than used to though, to be fair.
I think there needs to be a simple process for people to suggest improvements and an active working group with the motivation and the funding to look at them and investigate further the good ones.
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Nicely put Darius as we all know the lad's at the State Training Centre push for new idea's but are held back by budget and the corporate knife in the back if they voice their opinion. As for the leaders in Corporate HQ all they are worried about is the rural risk we face every summer and seem to forget the majority of the jobs we go to most now days are road accident rescues and structure fires. Plus when is the last time they went down the street to a job!
I think working groups from the STC and brigades that could use the equipment should be adopted more. You see it occasionally i.e. Tea Tree Gully's 14 CAFS appliance and other equipment tested at diffrent brigades.