SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: jaff on February 11, 2009, 09:57:07 PM
-
There is no doubt the recent Victorian bushfires have traumatised and mesmerised a nation, since European settlement of this country its the worst "natural" disaster we have witnessed.
Please, in NO WAY am I discounting what has occurred, to do so would be to dishonour the countless deaths and acts of heroism by so many, what I am asking is what could the Emergency services do with the public and media focus they are surely under right now.
Example: How many of you CFS members have had members of the general public asking you about bushfire readiness since Saturday the 7th?
Is it the right time for a media blitz on bushfire readiness?
Is it the right time for your brigade to have a community breakfast and discuss fire safety?
Is it the right time to have a recruitment drive?
This weekend through the Adelaide hills, I guarantee that there will be hundreds of people outside doing cleanups that should have occurred months ago!!!!!!!
So would our organisation be seen to be "Heartless or Opportunistic" to really push the bushfire preparedness message now? Or would we be saving the ignorant from themselves?
-
I say "YES" to all 'is it the right time' questions.
Regretably, I doubt there will be hundreds of people doing clean-up.
Most will be too busy doing whatever it was that got in the way of cleaning up
for the last several years.
In my opinion, the media is giving far to much air-time to people who survived
-despite- doing everything wrong, and nil air-time to people who survived because
they did everything right. In effect, by the alarmism & sensationalism we worry
about using, they are teaching people that there is no point in preparing your
property... the fire will get it anyway, and you can only survive by luck. And
by standing on your roof in stubbies & thongs with a garden hose and a beer.
-
Scaring people into doing the right thing is somewhat a good tactic to help them survive....as proven in Road safety campaigns.
A documentary, similar to Scorched, should be developed to portray would could have happened in south australia on Saturday.
The Advertiser itself did something similar, 3 Fires: Gawler river *true*, Athelstone Gorge, and Belair national park.
It spoke about suburbs of Bridgewater, Verdun, One Tree hill, etc being decimated.
Its a very scary thought.
I would utterly hate to see my local town oval covered with Tents.
-
jaff....honestly, I dont think you could without it being viewd in a negative light...i think the magnitude of what has happened will motivate those that will respond to any message of this sort...the rest wont do anything until it happens to them.
Surprisingly (especially for me)...i think its actually a softly softly approach with this
-
I think now is a great time to hit the media. I don't think scare tactics and "what could have happened" stories are the right approach though. If SAFECOM launched a campaign to help people properly understand the Stay or Go philosophy, I think it would be seen as the CFS learning from interstate and trying to prevent a similar disaster here.
Even simple radio ads reminding people they need a plan would be great:
"Do you have a bushfire action plan? If you're planning to stay, do you have independent water supply and appropriate clothing? If you're planning to go, did you know you have to leave before a fire starts, not when it's next door. You also need a backup plan if you can't leave"
In my opinion, the media is giving far to much air-time to people who survived
-despite- doing everything wrong, and nil air-time to people who survived because
they did everything right. In effect, by the alarmism & sensationalism we worry about using, they are teaching people that there is no point in preparing your property... the fire will get it anyway, and you can only survive by luck. And by standing on your roof in stubbies & thongs with a garden hose and a beer.
I couldn't agree more Alan. Not only is this making heros of people who did the wrong thing, but it's also missing a great opportunity to educate people on what they should be doing, rather than what they shouldn't. How often do you see the interviewer asking "Do you think your house would still be standing if you'd prepared properly?".
-
All of the above is great but if you cannot make the process of getting approval to clear any easier it just will not happen.
I remember a story on the news where a couple got fined 30k for clearing around their house even though approval had been denied - theirs was the only house in the area that survived...... 30k well spent I'd say!!!!!
While understanding the need for the environmentalists to have some say and to ensure that re-planting occurs or that completely unneccesary clearances do not happen, the current system is just dysfunctional.
-
it costs money to keep yourself safe these days unfortunately...
id like to see some more game people out there cutting down there tree's without approval..see if any one notices ;)
-
While understanding the need for the environmentalists to have some say and to ensure that re-planting occurs or that completely unneccesary clearances do not happen, the current system is just dysfunctional.
Couldn't agree more that the current system is dysfunctional.
Also true that there is a lot more can be done preparing & 'hardening' property against fire than just clearing.
Pleasantly amazed & shocked on the weekend. The Hills were alive with the sound of 2-stroke motors busily hacking & cutting.
-
What clearing is not allowed? I always thought you could slash and burn anything as long as is wasn't a "significant tree" or listed as having some special botanical significance?
-
While understanding the need for the environmentalists to have some say and to ensure that re-planting occurs or that completely unneccesary clearances do not happen, the current system is just dysfunctional.
Couldn't agree more that the current system is dysfunctional.
Also true that there is a lot more can be done preparing & 'hardening' property against fire than just clearing.
Pleasantly amazed & shocked on the weekend. The Hills were alive with the sound of 2-stroke motors busily hacking & cutting.
Only to find more Smoke in Area calls occured, and the occasional machinery caused grass fire :P thanks to the 2 stroke motors and slashers
-
Perhaps we need to really look at the "Stay and defend or leave early" princples, and hammer them into the public.
We all know that a large number of the public are 110% retarded. Possibly, clinically brain dead. We need to hammer home that the "Stay and Defend" part of the above principle only works with a properly prepared home.
I recall a few years ago a discussion in one of the regional newspapers regarding a group of residents who were up in arms at having to pay to have firefighting equipment installed in and around their homes for the CFS to use. Yes, they honestly thought that all the sprkinler systems and hosereels around their houses were for the local CFS to use, and nothing to do with them attempting to save their own house.
When people are unable to comprehend the basics like this, we have an uphill battle, but it is a battle that the CFS must take note of and start waging the war.
But in the end, it is also merely a sad reflection upon the world we live in today where noone is capable of taking responsibility for their own lives and decision making.
Maybe we just need to take a hardline approach to the community and let them know that its up to them and that the Fire Service can not, and will not be ther to hold their hand through major disasters and fires.
-
We all know that a large number of the public are 110% retarded. Possibly, clinically brain dead.
BEST QUOTE EVER!!!
I have enough trouble trying to get my own family to understand the concept...
Perhaps the CFS and/or Neighbourhood watch should be running programs to teach home owners how to deal with bushfires... perhaps, imagine this for a full day program (ie. 1 resident per household, 120 households per day)with say a $50 attendance fee, donated to local CFS brigade:- 45min video/lecture on what to expect from a bushfire, what residents may experience what hazards they may encounter. and what the two CFS approved strategies involve. (with questions)- presented by local CFS+Neighbourhood watch
- 15 minute intermission with attendees asked to decide which option they would like to take.
Group splits into two... those staying and defending & those planning on leaving.
For those staying- 45 minute session further detailing what may be encountered when dealing with a bushfire/how to identify the need to activate bushfire action plan/where to find information etc. - Neighbourhood Watch
- 45 minute session explaining what is required to adequately prepare a residence to cope with a bushfire - CFS/Council
- 30 minute lunch break (encouraged to approach if having difficulty filling out bushfire action plan)
- 45 minute session explaining what equipment is required to defend home from bushfire - CFS and Local Fire Protection Equipment Supplier
- 45 minute session (Semi Practical)on techniques to maximise effectiveness when using a home fire suppression system ie. basic techniques for hose work, use of knapsacks, common ignition points in houses etc. basics regarding the set up and usage of common home fire pumps - CFS
- 15 min afternoon tea break,(encouraged to approach if having difficulty filling out bushfire action plan)
- 30min-90min Q&A session with all agency's involved on the day. With separate area for residents requiring further assistance with bushfire action plan
For Those Leaving Early- 45 minute session explaining what is required to prepare a residence to best survive a bushfire when the residents have opted to leave early (with questions) - CFS/Council
- 45 minute session further detailing what exactly the Leave early strategy is, and when a resident should decide to leave (with questions) - Neighbourhood Watch
- 30 minute lunch break (encouraged to approach if having difficulty filling out bushfire action plan)
- 45 minute session explaining how to best prepare for the leave early strategy - Neighbourhood Watch
- 45 minute looking into what actions to take if you get caught out and it is too late to leave - Neighbourhood Watch & CFS
- 15 min afternoon tea break,(encouraged to approach if having difficulty filling out bushfire action plan)
- 30min-90min Q&A session with all agency's involved on the day. With separate area for residents requiring further assistance with bushfire action plan
by all means, feel free to criticise this idea, but keep in mind it is something which has been thought up over the course of around half an hour, by a normal (well i try to be) CFS vol. firey... imagine what a properly trained CFS HQ person could do if they spent a week or two working on organising a project like this
Pixie
-
I would suggest KISS principle.
Expand the current Community Liason service to include trained volunteers. So that more street based community meetings are held to discuss the hazards, preventative measures & the plans.
Hold some information stalls at the local supermarket with just brochures & information. Assist them to fill out the fire plan.
Use the kids to take the message to the parents.
** some ideas above pinched from SA FloodWatch briefing recently heard **
-
Perhaps the CFS and/or Neighbourhood watch should be running programs to teach home owners how to deal with bushfires... perhaps, imagine this for a full day program
Pixie
Sounds good Pixie.
Tried to do similar on a smaller scale. The times that you quote are
realistic. Material is readily available. Some of it in BFF1.
Community Firesafe touches on most of it. Needs higher funding priority in
my view. Also more support from vols who really only want to respond...
Canberra footage & Dead Man Zone should be essential viewing. Perhaps as the
introduction ? Might find more in the "leave early" group, and paying better
attention after viewing those. :-o Spelled this out to people on a couple of
non-fire lists who were discussing the Vic fires, & lamenting the lack of early
warning. Shocked 'silence' for a while as people digested the potential rate of
spread & heat output in terms of their own situations. Much less talk of early
warning systems, & more on fuel management & structure hardening afterwards.
Big hurdle is changing abstract head knowledge into time, effort & money.
The Vic fires may be the nearest we'll ever have to a 'silver bullet' to
push people over this hurdle. Would be a shame to miss with it...
cheers
-
Perhaps the CFS and/or Neighbourhood watch should be running programs to teach home owners how to deal with bushfires...
Isn't that what the Community Fire Safe program aims to do ?
Pip
-
firstly, you can't blame the public for the confusion......god knows the experts dont always put out consistent information and certainly the media dont help in responsible reporting. Just because it is our chosen field of interest and WE understand it, doesnt mean EVERYONE has to understand it...so lets not be too harsh on them....i have no idea about tuning triple carbies....but to a mechanic I'm sure its relatively straight forward
So....stay or go....definitely not the silver bullet...in fact, in some cases downright dangerous as a single message.....because sometimes its impratical to do either!!
works fine if you are in the Adelaide Hills on the urban fringe, where u can be somewhere like TTP or Marion inside 15 minutes. No problems with allowing people to chose then, but....
- what if you at the shops and suddenly something springs up. You're not home so your plan to stay is in danger....what do u do....head home to defend?....on the road you die, or at best become a pain in the arse for responding crews trying to get access to save your house
- what do u do if the kids are at the park next door....or at their friends down the street....no time to find them cos the firefront is fast approaching....the family where the kids are plan was to go....but they have left it too late...what do they do....what do they do with your kids?
- You plan to stay and defend.....but when the firefront arrives you are blinded by the smoke (cheap smoke goggles never keep it all out) and in the end you lose your nerve...after all you've never faced anything like this......what do u do?...leave....remember on the roads...you die, or at best get in the way
- How long do you go for? Do you go every fire ban day? What about those days where the FDI is 48 instead of 50 (and you all know my thoughts I'm sure on what a B/S figure FDI really is) Would Joe Public even know that its that bad....or would he just go - No FireBan....no Danger?
- what if you live in a town like Marysville....where there is no-where else to go? Stay or go doesnt apply
Theres a hundred other scenarios where stay or go is flawed....i'm not saying its the wrong message....but its just a small component of a wider survivability approach. You cant reasonably expect peoples whole survival to depend on a decision made at 9am in the morning to go or stay....for the entire next 24 hrs...(remember those pesky fires at night that can sneek up too.....do you stay or go just in daylight hours?
For my part, things to include;
discuss the drawbacks of stay or go....there are lots, and lots of good points to it as well.
Arm people with the best available facts about defence of their homes....not folklore from the CFS shed. In this we cant afford armchair experts. If you dont have a Fire Engineering degree,.....then dont provide solutions.
Look at fallback survivability options. The first company to make a drop in bunker where u dig a 8x6 hole 2 feet deep, drop in a shelter and pile a bit of dirt on the northern sides and provide it at a cost of under $500 will clean up. In the Dandenongs, after Ash Wednesday, they developed a series of community refuges, because they knew that escape wouldnt be possible. When it turns to scheiße, thats where they head....all within a cpl minutes from where they live. The large remainder of Victoria didnt follow suit, because they were spared a lot of the grief from Ash Wednesday, and they thought they wouldnt have the same issues. Time to revisit these. Whatever the result....when your defences get overwhelmed by a large magnitude fire like we saw in Victoria (or Ash Wednesday, or 1955, or 1939)....then u need a fall back safe refuge.
Maybe in some of the roads in the hills....u need remote controlled barriers to stop people trying to access the fireground - something to keep people away from the hot stuff
Maybe we look at the Community Fire Response model that NSW use ....where a group of householders hold up their hand to be given an amount of training, and equipment to look after houses their street as much as they can. Quite effective in cul de sacs that back onto bushland. Perfect?...no....but its about layered defence and increasing chances of survival
I talked to a guy today whose house backed onto the southern edge of Sturt Gorge. Under a northerly wind, a fire whipping out of the Gorge will be licking his back fence. He has a 40,000l pool....and so do his 4 neighbours either side....why not provide him with some fixed plumbing at no cost to make that available at the fenceline....or out the front where an appliance might reasonably tuck in for some protection AND attack the fire or save the row of houses. Fire response planning must take a higher priority - with real firefighters taking charge in each Group....not leaving it to one poor donkey per Region to plan an effective response. To do this.... might mean a paid Group Officer (doesnt have to be THE Group Officer I hasten to add) that is responsible for Fire Response OPS Planning....real planning, for real operations , not dinky models that have the word AIIMS in it. Another in the Group to look at Fire Prevention...not a Ranger not an Admin type with Bushfire prevention as a secondary task after catching dogs, not a retired old Captain who last fought a fire 20years ago when cows were in paddocks that now have factories in them.
Lets educate our Firefighters on Prevention. We have a wonderful training system....but unless u want simplistic single skill training (wildfire, BA, Hazmat etc..), then theres nothing available from it. In higher levels of learning, it lets us down badly. There are resources readily available to train our Group Officers, Brigade Leaders or even baggy arse firefighters in response planning, fire prevention and even inspecting Dangerous Substance Facilities ....remember those things....those hardware stores with a plethora of things waiting to burn with all the colours of the rainbow....or the Crash Repair Shop with all manner of solvents, paints, glues and flammable liquid, or even the local Cold Stores, complete with ammonia plant, FSP walls, and flammable refrigerant. All those places where we have the authority to enter and assess their compliance with the Australian Dangerous Goods Code Vers 7 (did you know we got a new version with lots of changes in January?)
Educating OUR people is the first step to educating the public.
Is all of this easy?....nup, no way. But we have a Training Department, a Community Safety Department, an OPS Planning Department, and a bunch of Assistant Chiefs and highly paid managers....out of all that, and with a well staffed request for funds.....if we cant make a difference then "viva le' guillotine" and lets change the people concerned because THIS IS OUR CORE BUSINESS
Right, I'm off for a Bex and a good lie down.....
-
Mate congrats - very well said! It's about time someone started thinking beyond one/two truck responses & Skycranes!
Again very well said
-
Perhaps the CFS and/or Neighbourhood watch should be running programs to teach home owners how to deal with bushfires...
Isn't that what the Community Fire Safe program aims to do ?
Pip
Community Fire Safety program?? what is that... in the last 5 years I have been involved in the CFS, This week is the first time I have ever heard of it! and if these Victorian fires had not have occurred, I still wouldn't know the program even existed.
Further to my above post, I have been thinking, stuff it, why doesn't the State Government gazette areas as "Bushfire Prone Areas", and charge much higher rates for the Emergency Services Levy in those areas. and use this money to set up rebates for purchase of approved home fire suppression systems, and the installation of LARGE water storage, the clearing of "dangerous vegetation" and running the community fire safety type programs. (with the provision to lessen the levy if a home owner can show that their property IS sufficiently bushfire ready, thus we would need strict guidelines and people trained to asses this.)
That way people might think, 'hang on, I am getting slugged a thousand dollar each year just because I live in a bushfire prone area, maybe I will clean up and try to get a rebate, and try to have it lessened next year.' from my experience, MONEY SPEAKS!!! and the user pays mentality is one of the quickest ways to get the publics attention.
Perhaps even the idea of charging for attendance at rural fires started on ill prepared properties (with funds going to crew's).
-
HHHUMM Pixie,............. sometimes thinkin aint such a good idea! :roll:
-
agreed jaff...end of the day if people dont wanna organise their sh*t an get their act 2 getha thats their fault..its all ove rthe media about bushfire action plans. and if they dont understand ASK SOME ONE THAT DOES!!
-
So....stay or go....definitely not the silver bullet...in fact, in some cases downright dangerous as a single message.....because sometimes its impratical to do either!!
Has to start with Plan, Prepare & Practice. Have to hammer the fuel management
(natural & man-made fuels) and the building hardening side of it. If the passive
defences aren't solid, you have no fall-back position if/when active systems like
pumps & sprinklers fail. Or you don't get to implement your 'leave early' plan.
Is all of this easy?....nup, no way. But we have a Training Department, a Community Safety Department, an OPS Planning Department, and a bunch of Assistant Chiefs and highly paid managers....out of all that, and with a well staffed request for funds.....if we cant make a difference then "viva le' guillotine" and lets change the people concerned because THIS IS OUR CORE BUSINESS
Right, I'm off for a Bex and a good lie down.....
I think you are right. Legally, fire prevention lies with councils. FPO's are
supposed to do a set of PSP modules to Cert 4 (I think). There must be scope for
interested brigade members to participate in the process. It needs more funding
and to be 'sexed-up' for brigades whose members or leadership only want to do
'response'. To me it seems the principal lesson of Vic '09 is that there are
more lives to be saved by education & property preparation than with trucks &
T-cards.
cheers
-
To me it seems the principal lesson of Vic '09 is that there are
more lives to be saved by education & property preparation than with trucks &
T-cards.
2nd best quote on SAFF!!
I really do think you may be onto something there...
HHHUMM Pixie,............. sometimes thinkin aint such a good idea! :roll:
Perhaps you are right... what is it they say, it is better to stay quite and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt...
-
I thought it was "the only stupid question is the one you don;t ask" Not to mention this is the place to test ideas unless they are just dumb eg paint our trucks black
Ok then if we all need to clean up our gardens etc how do you suppose the Adelaide Hills council should go about green waste removal? currently half the area can burn their rubbish and half can't really as it is kind of surbia?
So for me it isn;t a problem as we burn it, and a weelie bin for green wast would be to small as we get rid of some serious stuff each year. any suggestions?
-
How about all the councils in the bushfire prone areas have free green waste dumping, encorage people to help themselves.
Unfortunately the stingy minded Adelaide hills council arent up for it!... Twats!
-
The answer to green waste....compost!!
Pip
-
The answer to green waste....compost!!
Pip
Another answer, Yep.......Time and space, Nope!
-
I would have thought compost wouldn't be able to process nearly enough.
-
good to see we are concentrating on the big issues....lol...who cares, compost it, store it, bury it, burn it or filtered smoke it....but just clear it
-
hahaha yeah lets get back on topic
-
I would have thought compost wouldn't be able to process nearly enough.
Interesting...Onkaparinga Council have three places you can dump green waste by the trailer load each month, as well as the green waste wheelie bin once a month at the kerb side.
Depending on the type of green waste, Peats Soil at Willunga & Jeffries Garden Soil at Wingfield both do commercial composting by the truck loads.
-
Ok then if we all need to clean up our gardens etc how do you suppose the Adelaide Hills council should go about green waste removal? currently half the area can burn
Thems as can, offer it to the local brigade for training burns.
Now that cadets are allowed to participate in pile burns, there should be lots of
opportunities. Burn it in situ, or have them deliver it behind the station.
Or, as others suggest, there are many receivers of green waste.
Tree lopping companies sell their output as mulch. Councils, garden suppliers...
Or just let the pile in the corner of the yard compost down on its own. The residual
timber can be given away as firewood.
That pile or rubbish standing in the back corner of the yard is not a great risk.
Certainly far less so than to have that shrubbery still standing around the house.
cheers
-
Ok nice to yo hear that other councils have solutions to this problem.
Alan J
Please don't suggest any more heaped pile burns about twice a year my brigade become the burn rubbish at a members house for week after week. In short it sucks. But things are changing.
-
Ok nice to yo hear that other councils have solutions to this problem.
Alan J
Please don't suggest any more heaped pile burns about twice a year my brigade become the burn rubbish at a members house for week after week. In short it sucks. But things are changing.
Although large pile burns are great for new members. Its often the first good controlled chance that they get to see fire up close.
-
Although large pile burns are great for new members. Its often the first good controlled chance that they get to see fire up close.
And now that the new cadet guidelines allow cadets to attend pile burns...
-
And now that the new cadet guidelines allow cadets to attend pile burns...
you must use stronger rope out there in the back blocks Alan.....we can never get the little buggers to stay in a pile long enough to light it up :-D
-
you must use stronger rope out there in the back blocks Alan.....we can never get the little buggers to stay in a pile long enough to light it up :-D
:evil: