SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: Zippy on March 10, 2009, 10:06:18 AM
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Have heard MFS are moving to Rear Mount's, but its just a matter of when i guess. I agree with the thought of having delievery lines done similar to CFA Type 2's..infact most trucks it'd be nice to do!
You could imagine this truck to be a mix of a Urban Pumper tanker and the CFS URP's.
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Also i am confused as to why the new burnside truck has the outlets at the rear and not the side to make life easier for crews and to provide space for a pump operator.
Have heard MFS are moving to Rear Mount's, but its just a matter of when i guess. I agree with the thought of having delievery lines done similar to CFA Type 2's..infact most trucks it'd be nice to do!
You could imagine this truck to be a mix of a Urban Pumper tanker and the CFS URP's.
Why split the deliveries so the pump operator has to take care of more than his single panel? If you bring everything into on central area, as long as the layout is smart, makes life a whole lot easier for the pump operator, as they have everything there in front of them.
And Zippy, a mix of Urban Pumper and a... 24P?
Maybe a real URP...
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And Zippy, a mix of Urban Pumper and a... 24P?
;)
Indeed its CFS REAL URP.
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Also i am confused as to why the new burnside truck has the outlets at the rear and not the side to make life easier for crews and to provide space for a pump operator.
(one of the) stupidest parts of the Type 2 is chasing hoses on the sides of the appliance when your standing at the rear
Agree with Numbers....smart design and theres no issues
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Chasing hoses, riiight, can't say it worries me, at least I don't have to stand a mile from the pump and try and reach over. But I guess its not likely to often have 4 in 4 out.
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It is the smartest thing to split your deliveries and supply lines, when you pull up to a job you can run hose from the side straight into the job and there is then no confusion as to where the hoses are going. It has been proven to be very successful in cfa and they do see a lot of flame.
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It is the smartest thing to split your deliveries and supply lines, when you pull up to a job you can run hose from the side straight into the job and there is then no confusion as to where the hoses are going. It has been proven to be very successful in cfa and they do see a lot of flame.
might i humby suggest that if you're confused about those big nasty hoses coming in or going out of ur prescious pump panel....maybe you shouldn't be anywhere near it? [/sarcasm]
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teddy my friend, see the thing is cfs do not even run an operate pumps course so most people would be confused when standing at the rear of a pump panel on this type of truck, so with more hoses in the way could easily confuse and make life hard for your everyday pump operator.
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Yeah Ted, maybe you should suggest a pump operators course, or write one yourself, it isn't to hard to get confused on your average CFS dakka dakka pump, although I have seen it several times.
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teddy my friend, see the thing is cfs do not even run an operate pumps course so most people would be confused when standing at the rear of a pump panel on this type of truck, so with more hoses in the way could easily confuse and make life hard for your everyday pump operator.
yeah my mistake Bronto....we could run a 16 week course teaching people on ageing old Volvo shiteboxes taken off the run years ago as inadequate....and let them loose on day 1 on a new Scania most of them have no farken idea on.....oh yeah...but thats right, we don't let them touch a pump or drive or anything important till they get to 3rd class do we, cos thats how it was when we went through drill squad ......good training plan to aspire to that
If your Brigade members don't know how to operate your Brigade equipment, then no service imposed course will help them - try being responsible for your own selves and stop expecting others to fix your issues ....oops...theres that god-dammed R word again - my bad
Oh and just to keep on topic.....I have absolutely no doubt that the Burnside boys will more than adequately train their members to operate their pump to its fullest capbility. Maybe if u ask nicely u could go along Bronto and pick up some tips
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Have to agree with MT, you dont need an operate pumps course to operate (at a guess) 95% of the CFS pumps, just good & regular training, oh and maybe a brain.
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Have to agree with MT, you dont need an operate pumps course to operate (at a guess) 95% of the CFS pumps, just good & regular training, oh and maybe a brain.
JC......there in lies the problem! :-D
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My 2c.
As some have stated, 4 in and 4 out, means 8 hoses into the rear of the truck.
Have fun reaching over to which ever switches and dials you need to get to. Not to mention jumping over the lines to go to either side of the truck. - That is one of the only real design faults, or more should I say, designer points, that I disagree with.
Sure, you can argue all day that you should be able to use the pump regardless, and sure, I agree. But splitting lines to the side makes it easier. Fact. You can send a delivery off either side, while keeping the rear of the appliance less cluttered. - Has its pro's and cons sure. Everything does! But I have to agree that having all 4 in and out from the rear of the truck will get messy.
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teddy my friend, see the thing is cfs do not even run an operate pumps course so most people would be confused when standing at the rear of a pump panel on this type of truck, so with more hoses in the way could easily confuse and make life hard for your everyday pump operator.
yeah my mistake Bronto....we could run a 16 week course teaching people on ageing old Volvo shiteboxes taken off the run years ago as inadequate....and let them loose on day 1 on a new Scania most of them have no farken idea on.....oh yeah...but thats right, we don't let them touch a pump or drive or anything important till they get to 3rd class do we, cos thats how it was when we went through drill squad ......good training plan to aspire to that
If your Brigade members don't know how to operate your Brigade equipment, then no service imposed course will help them - try being responsible for your own selves and stop expecting others to fix your issues ....oops...theres that god-dammed R word again - my bad
Oh and just to keep on topic.....I have absolutely no doubt that the Burnside boys will more than adequately train their members to operate their pump to its fullest capbility. Maybe if u ask nicely u could go along Bronto and pick up some tips
So I am guessing thats a no then Ted, oh well, thanks anyway :-)
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pumprescue....if you'd like me to write an Operate Pumps course for you I'd be absolutely delighted to.
Please contact me with so I can supply you my EFT details :lol:
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PUA00069: Operate a Brain.
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Honestly how often is it that this pump will have 4 in and 4 out in operation at one time? Pretty darn rarely and for those few special times it does i'm sure they can work around it.
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exactly...its there "just in case".
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Hi all,
Thought i would have a say too. MT the CFA operate a course for the volunteers for every type of pumpping appliance they have. So as JC said if your in on of the 95% brigade with the old dakka dakka pump then you do the tanker course, then if your in an urban brigade you do the pumper course. It does not take 16 weeks to do but at least from the services point of view it covers them to say yes Joe blog knows what he is doing not only to pull some levers but the whole operation of the truck as a pumping appliance. Also having operated Dennis a few time with 2 supply lines and multiple lines out it did become a pain having to step over and lean over all the hoses to do stuff, so clearing the way for the pump operator is the way to go.
Big Al, problem is brigades need to allow for boosting in their SFEC which seem to not exist anymore, if a 34P does not have enough flow then they are supposed to be given a pumper. haha. But also i say if you have a type 2 and a house fire if used correctly it can supply up to 4 lines and a reel into the job and have other appliances supply it with up to four lines. I hate seeing jobs where each truck parks in front of the house and runs one line each. It has been implemented at a few jobs Mt Barker and Happy Valley have gone too, run a reel and up to 3 x 38mm lines with the 2nd truck assisting with a supply from a further hydrant. Seems to do the job quite nicely. You can have another truck nearby on standby with lines in case your pump dies.
Joff
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I hate seeing jobs where each truck parks in front of the house and runs one line each. It has been implemented at a few jobs Mt Barker and Happy Valley have gone too, run a reel and up to 3 x 38mm lines with the 2nd truck assisting with a supply from a further hydrant. Seems to do the job quite nicely. You can have another truck nearby on standby with lines in case your pump dies.
Some good and very true points there joff :D Let the first arriving appliance deal with water delivery...if it can cope with the job by itself (dukka dukka 24 probably cant tho).
Pump training is something that needs to be done consistently like a monthly competency check i think. Ive seen sooo many people just look LOST when asked to find the Tank Valve...
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I hate seeing jobs where each truck parks in front of the house and runs one line each. It has been implemented at a few jobs Mt Barker and Happy Valley have gone too, run a reel and up to 3 x 38mm lines with the 2nd truck assisting with a supply from a further hydrant. Seems to do the job quite nicely. You can have another truck nearby on standby with lines in case your pump dies.
Some good and very true points there joff :D Let the first arriving appliance deal with water delivery...if it can cope with the job by itself (dukka dukka 24 probably cant tho).
Pump training is something that needs to be done consistently like a monthly competency check i think. Ive seen sooo many people just look LOST when asked to find the Tank Valve...
Theres.................... a tank valve?
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*rolls eyes* sounds like your in a command car too much ? :P
other related news:
http://www.ozfire.org/viewtopic.php?t=10147
New CFA Pumper-Tanker...A rural truck following the CFA urban layout.
http://www.ozfire.org/viewtopic.php?t=10146
CFA Light Pumper...Vaugely similar to a CFS 12.
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Theres.................... a tank valve?
...I don't drive command cars, and I still don't know what a tank valve is... maybe its a nuff nuff brigade thing? :P
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Tank to Pump dammit!...Tank Valve for Short....Getting the Water from the Tank....H20 From a Billabong!!! #$^$5809
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Tank Valve for Short....
Wouldnt it be worth calling it by its full name to avoid confusion with pump to tank?
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Tank Valve...Recirculation Valve...quick names.
but yes your right, for teaching people pumps, Pump to tank and Tank to pump. Only thing i see tho is people get spun around in circles with those tongue twisters when pressures put on them in training ;)
Anyway, enough of pump chat from me....lunch time.
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Fishins mighty fine today! :-D
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Bites aplenty :-D
The NSWFB have a setup on some of the rear mount pumpers where one side of the pump the inlets/outlets face on an angle one way and on the other side they face on an opposing angle the other way. Does this make a larger area to work with at the pump.
At the moment our local supermarket complex has a very large sprinkler setup and multipe hydrant locations (the usual) with a 2 in 2 out box, over the next 6 months the supermarket will increase in size by 50% and the mall will increase by over 100%.
If they increase the booster box capacity would this help our brigade in a push for a better urban appliance for our brigade?
Just curious is all, if anyone in the know is out there :-)
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Big Al your best bet is to contact the cfs fire safety department through the region. They should come out and tell you if your appliance is sufficient for the task at hand. Then from there it may give you more of a reason to look at a more urban suited appliance. Having boosters and suppression systems is just one of the things CFS look at, if you have lots of money in your piggy bank or have a chief in your brigade is another.
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Well got neither of those so will have to do it the hard way lol
Cheers Joff. :-)
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Alan, you would have had better support from the commander who used to work in the fire safety section as he was the one who was pushing for briagde's outside of region 1 to get better applainces due to the urban risk's in country and seaside towns.....
Can I ask how many people have used a rear mounted PUMPER??? I have used both rear and midship pumps and both are very good, I am sure burnside have gone the way they have because of what they know about their own area but also the area that they support with in the group or MFS. Rear mounted pumpers are a lot more easy to repair/replace used the pump need urgent workmas for teh layout of valves I dont see a problem with them its a matter of the crew/brigade getting used to what they have.....
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"STOP THE PRESS" .............Bill are you suggesting there are risks outside of region 1,.............okay okay you nearly got me there, very funny... well done!
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Good luck Al, we have 17 premises with boosters in our area including a few that are six in six out, and we have been working for a long time to try and justify our need.
All you can do is put together your submission based on the facts and let them decide, if they think you don't need one at least you have passed the risk on to them should things go wrong down the track.
BTW Al, In very general terms we found with all the testing we did and speaking to a number of fire system engineers that our standard 24P / 34P pumps will be adequate if you only want to boost to one hydrant at a distance of about 100m, if you have sprinklers flowing or want any more hydrants then you are probably going to struggle.
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BTW Al, In very general terms we found with all the testing we did and speaking to a number of fire system engineers that our standard 24P / 34P pumps will be adequate if you only want to boost to one hydrant at a distance of about 100m, if you have sprinklers flowing or want any more hydrants then you are probably going to struggle.
If the need arises for serious boosting, I have a feeling more than one hydrant is going to be tapped, and as you suggested, a highly likely chance sprinklers will be operating. So yeah, the rural P's will definately struggle a little.
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WE did some testing with Morphett Vale with our Type 2 and their 24P, it was fine with the 1 Hydrant we were boosting, but after that, the volume of water we could flow with 4 in 4 out compared to 2 in 2 out was worlds apart. When you think about it, you have a decent ring main with 4 hydrants and a sprinkler system then your stuffed with anything less than a type 2, or more so, a 34P/24P with a proper plumbing set up.
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it'd pretty much take 2-3 P appliances to run a sprinkler system right? so until a single Medium Pumper goes into an area like Goolwa...3rd alarm just for pumping power ;)
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it'd pretty much take 2-3 P appliances to run a sprinkler system right? so until a single Medium Pumper goes into an area like Goolwa...3rd alarm just for pumping power ;)
Well Zippmiester, its just like being a good host at a party....eeeeveryones invited!
Though this could cause the uninitiated some pause, with too many couplings taking place, male/female everywhere you look, and debate still rages as to wether side delivery or rear delivery is the most desirable, it would need some orgynisation.
Bet there would still be some poor bugger standing there with their stortz in their hand and no one to couple too. :-o
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your the 4th person to call me zipmister Today!..guys, is this a conspiracy!
Lol...i tend to reserve my "eye-rollings" for Firecall Parties.
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Also having operated Dennis a few time with 2 supply lines and multiple lines out it did become a pain having to step over and lean over all the hoses to do stuff, so clearing the way for the pump operator is the way to go.
Yes, can agree that the inlet/outlet set-up on the Dennis is not ideal...
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It is the smartest thing to split your deliveries and supply lines, when you pull up to a job you can run hose from the side straight into the job and there is then no confusion as to where the hoses are going. It has been proven to be very successful in cfa and they do see a lot of flame.
It IS the smartest thing hands down is it? Because the CFA and all the flame they see say so? Fair enough. I guess the discussion may as well end there.
At the end of the day, it's all going to come down to personal preference. I like having all my lines concentrated so I can stand on them. I also enjoy having the flexibility of not having to run hoses around the truck if we want more than two lines going to any particular side. You, and the CFA/Mt. Barker/Happy Valley may well enjoy having two lines running out both sides. Thats cool. Job still gets done no?
At the end of the day, as others have said, they chance that ANY CFS appliance will EVER be running 4 in 4 out is essentially nill, so does that render this whole discussion useless? (Like most others around here)
teddy my friend, see the thing is cfs do not even run an operate pumps course so most people would be confused when standing at the rear of a pump panel on this type of truck, so with more hoses in the way could easily confuse and make life hard for your everyday pump operator.
If your Brigade members don't know how to operate your Brigade equipment, then no service imposed course will help them - try being responsible for your own selves and stop expecting others to fix your issues ....oops...theres that god-dammed R word again - my bad
If you have more than a couple of people in your brigade that have serious issues with pumps and pumping, then you need to take a good hard look at how/what you are teaching. Pumps are scary, but not hard...
Oh god, not personal responsibility!
Pumps don't get much easier than the colour coded and line linked ones these days...
Tank to Pump dammit!...Tank Valve for Short....Getting the Water from the Tank....H20 From a Billabong!!! #$^$5809
Hey sweetie, sounds like you could do well to head back to BFF1 and do the pumps and pumping operations part again. As Alex has expertly pointing out, you have other valves that the "Tank valve" can easily get confused with. Stop trying to be cool and hip and oh so full of firefighting knowledge, and use its goddamned correct name.
Or did you mean Tank-fill valve?
So fast to heap it on other 'dumb' people, but so slow to engage your own brain...
Bet there would still be some poor bugger standing there with their stortz in their hand and no one to couple too. :-o
But it's a hermaphrodite coupling! It can couple to anything!!
And finally, for the record, HILO is awesome and anyone who has the ability, but doesn't use it, needs to take a good hard look at themselves.
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Hey sweetie, sounds like you could do well to head back to BFF1 and do the pumps and pumping operations part again. As Alex has expertly pointing out, you have other valves that the "Tank valve" can easily get confused with. Stop trying to be cool and hip and oh so full of firefighting knowledge, and use its goddamned correct name.
Or did you mean Tank-fill valve?
So fast to heap it on other 'dumb' people, but so slow to engage your own brain...
hey pie, essentially, im not in the game of using the terminolgy to the 10th degree...fine yeh i do on newer people, but for when i use stuff...i dont use names...i "just do it" as nike says. Wouldnt it be nice to be a blind pump operator and seamlessly do it all...thats how i train ;)
i might actually like HILO...if i could actually manage to HEAR what my OIC is sayin from the front of the cab....theres other factors..but predominatly its just too loud (our specific brigade added siren) Theres a reason the Yanks appliances have Ear Muff/headphones in there cabs right???
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Bet there would still be some poor bugger standing there with their stortz in their hand and no one to couple too. :-o
But it's a hermaphrodite coupling! It can couple to anything!!
Numbers, in isolation what you have used my quote for is correct........ BUT if my initial statement is taken in its entirity, then its less correct, in fact its that less correct its wrong!