SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Firey9119 on August 23, 2008, 07:41:43 PM
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How may stations are lossing ba op due to the CFS limit of the BMI at 35??
what do people think of it??
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I think that without a long and drawn out fitness test, the BMI is probably the best way, at the moment, to do things.
For people who fall between say, 30-40 BMI perhaps need to take part in a VO2Max test? but then this would have the issue that people with a 'normal' BMI could well score very low on a VO2Max test.
Perhaps the answer is instructors having more balls to mark people NYC based on their fitness performance during the OBAOC course. The conditions replicated in the Hot Cell are certainly mild interms of both temperature and intensity when compared to real life operations. If people can't hack it in there, then they shouldn't be deemed competent to pass the course.
As much as people might whinge and moan about it 'not being fair' I don't give two hoots about being fair, as long as I can rely on the bloke next to me and I know that they are capable of performing the tasks assigned as well as any worst case scenario. Its much like people being accredited with RCR when they can't handle the tools physically by themselves. Its a terrible practice of "Oh it'll be fine".
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35? Just did some quick research into BMI, one calculator displays this information:
* Underweight = <18.5
* Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
* Overweight = 25-29.9
* Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater
another does slightly further:
< 18.5 Underweight
18.5 - 25 Normal
25 - 30 Overweight
Above 30 Obese
Above 35 Severely obese
Above 40 "Lets not go there"
I think Below 30's a good target for the Joe blogs
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35? Just did some quick research into BMI, one calculator displays this information:
I willl NEVER EVER be able to make 'Normal Weight' unless I crash dieted and didn't eat for weeks on end. I'm the thinnest I've ever been and I'm happily sitting in the "Obese" category.
This is the only problem with going by just the numbers.
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This is the only problem with going by just the numbers.
hehe yeah i guess so numbers.
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This is the only problem with going by just the numbers.
hehe yeah i guess so numbers.
Only when we are talking about BMI, in any other circumstance then going by the numbers is the only way! ;)
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Phil,its been a issue for sometime in country area's and I did hear from someone up the ladder that CFS may be looking into changing the BMI to 38 due to a number of issues. One that comes to mind was a member from the west coast who I was talking to he failed the BA medical due to the BMI,,Mind you he is a weight lifter and I have heard other story's along this line with members who do alot of work outs at the local GYM....
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I know a person in my brigade who is perfectly healthy, has normal health, all his heart rates, blood pressure, cholesterol are perfect yet still has a BMI of 34, the new minimum is 30. I would rather go into any job with this guy and so do most of our members, yet he still can't pass. His Doctor said he would pass him but the BMI stipulation prevents him from signing it off. Now if the Doctor thinks your medically fit then shouldn't you be medically fit ?
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Ah, isn't the BMI cut off still 35? According to the online medical last week it was.
In all honesty I think in cases of people having a higher than allowed BMI, the doctor needs to be able to make an assessment and if they believe the person is medically fit, then the BMI 'limit' is waived.
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Still was 35 a week ago, had a member do their course with a BMI of 31? Would like to know where 30 comes from.
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Would like to know where 30 comes from.
Bend over and look in the mirror. I think THAT is where he pulled it from.
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well i might offend some here but oh well.
if you have a BMI of 35....might be time to hit the gym?
Granted some are "big boned" and are just genetically big but people today seem to think a beer gut isnt a bad thing?
Ive heard fair enough reasons why people have a high BMI yet they are fit and healthy e.g. body builders etc.
I do agree though...Doctors discretion should be allowed to be used if the need should arise.
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Im over bmi of 35 and am pretty keen to do BA. we dont have BA at all in our brigade but our "sister brigade" does and are strugling wit BA at moment. But I guess they have to make a cut off some where its like a speed limit i guess.
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well i might offend some here but oh well.
if you have a BMI of 35....might be time to hit the gym?
Stuff 'em if they are getting offended. There are plenty of people out there that are big, fat, unfit yet still whinge and moan when people bring up fitness. If people can't be bothered to take care of their fitness in the slightest degree then why should they hold accreditation in the use of a piece of equipment that when it is used, it is done so in a very physically demanding manner?
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Should be like the MFS, once you get in you can stack it on
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Some doctor's don't understand BMI or what CABA is.....I was lead to believe that we should not be using the on line medical form???
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Some doctor's don't understand BMI or what CABA is.....I was lead to believe that we should not be using the on line medical form???
If they dont want it to be used then remove it!
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Its ok summer is nearly here and we can work off all that excess while we hibernated for the winter..... :lol:
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Some doctor's don't understand BMI or what CABA is.....I was lead to believe that we should not be using the on line medical form???
Id be worried if doctors didnt understand BMI - There is an explaination for what CABA is and what type of work you do with it in the frist 3 pages of the medical. If the doc still isnt sure then you can explain it to them - sounds hard?
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The problem with BMIs is that they differ from people to people regarding results, for instance i have a BMI of 32 but i don't have a gut and a slimish upper body BUT i have big legs from running, footy etc. Your body weight could be distributed over different areas not just your guts. Personally i think occupational therapists should be doing the medicals.
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The problem with BMIs is that they differ from people to people regarding results, for instance i have a BMI of 32 but i don't have a gut and a slimish upper body BUT i have big legs from running, footy etc. Your body weight could be distributed over different areas not just your guts. Personally i think occupational therapists should be doing the medicals.
I'm just big boned, honest!
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The problem with BMIs is that they differ from people to people regarding results, for instance i have a BMI of 32 but i don't have a gut and a slimish upper body BUT i have big legs from running, footy etc. Your body weight could be distributed over different areas not just your guts. Personally i think occupational therapists should be doing the medicals.
and its cases like this where the doctors discretion should be able to be used.
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Why can't people just accept the fact the BMI is set @ that level to protect people from themselves.
People with a BMI greater than the limit are simply TOO FAT and are a risk to themselves & All.
The argument that I am just over is no good you are still obese!!! A BMI of 30 is still OBESE get over & find another task you can do or loose the required amount & try again. No-one has said you can't get fitter so sSTOP WHINING!
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I like it, no point whinging, get out there and loose the pounds, if not for the BA but for your own well being !
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Why can't people just accept the fact the BMI is set @ that level to protect people from themselves.
People with a BMI greater than the limit are simply TOO FAT and are a risk to themselves & All.
The argument that I am just over is no good you are still obese!!! A BMI of 30 is still OBESE get over & find another task you can do or loose the required amount & try again. No-one has said you can't get fitter so sSTOP WHINING!
Fishin or Foolish?
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Why can't people just accept the fact the BMI is set @ that level to protect people from themselves.
People with a BMI greater than the limit are simply TOO FAT and are a risk to themselves & All.
The argument that I am just over is no good you are still obese!!! A BMI of 30 is still OBESE get over & find another task you can do or loose the required amount & try again. No-one has said you can't get fitter so sSTOP WHINING!
Thats rediculous though.. I know people who are 6'5, professional weightlifters (one is a Triatholon Athlete).. His BMI is 38.. - He would be leaner, fitter, and have more muscle than anyone I know.. - You going to call him obese to his face?.. - He would laugh.... Then do a 25km run 15km swim and 60km bike ride to shove it in your face!!
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Well i would hope you can get some proof for that type of build so they can do BA. Would i be to brash if i assumed that he probably has an interest in his BMI and knows a thing or to so can prove his fitness.
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Our former captain was a state shotputter so is fairly well built, but would run rings around most people fitness wise and he failed the BMI by 2 kilos and was denied access to do a refresher.
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ALL IM GOING TO ADD IS ..... GOD HELP THE CFS WHEN THEY RUN OUT OF CABA OPERATOR AS THEY ARE ALL OVER BMI OF 35, CALL IN THE RED TRUCK??? THEY WILL LOVE THAT!!
HOW MANY FIREY IN RED TRUCKS ARE UNDER 35???(NOT TRYING TO START A S*%T STORM JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT)
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The BMI is currently set at 35, well was two weeks ago when i did mine.
A number needs to be there but in the end it should be up to the Doctor to allow a variance if you are medically fit.
If you over this level then get off your computor and take a walk today and maybe a run tommorrow.
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My comment still stands about differing BMI readings and interpreting them, people are different shapes and sizes doctors discretion needs to be applied to this rule.
Unless you are someone the size of Jarred pre subway diet... :-)
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Onther thing to remember is we are volunteers we rely on volunteers and considering recuiting in smaller communities is hard at the best of times making the medical restrictions tight or tighter is just going to make it even harder to get members.
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Onther thing to remember is we are volunteers we rely on volunteers and considering recuiting in smaller communities is hard at the best of times making the medical restrictions tight or tighter is just going to make it even harder to get members.
So just because 'we are only volunteers' we dont need to worry about safety issues? I understand what you are saying about numbers of people in small towns, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
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So would you say a weight lifter who as a BMI of 37 is obese??
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So would you say a weight lifter who as a BMI of 37 is obese??
Who? Me? Or was that a general question? Have you read ANY of this thread so far?
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Open question....Yes I am reading.... The situation of BMI is one that keeps coming up all over the state, I know some very fit young CFS guys who are into sports and the gym and yet their BMI will not allow them to do CABA or the refresher course. As someone has said again and again it should be up to the doctor to pass or fail the person taking the medical if he /she feels they can not do the job.The other point and I have said this before some DOCTOR'S don't have a a clue about BMI or what CABA is and this has come from talking to the local doctors here and in other parts of the state that i know... May be CFS should look at just having a medical like NSW and Tassie have.....
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As has been said before, the CFS had to choose a cut off, and so they settled on 35. Sure, some fit people will miss out, but the majority of people with BMI over 35 would probably be unfit for BA.
No matter what test they choose, some people will be disadvantaged by it - that's not an appropriate reason to get rid of the test.
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Why would CFS use a system such as BMI, it has been out of favour with the fitness industry for years, oh yeah, its CFS. :-D
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The key issue is whether a person can sustain a certain work-load that a
CABA operator may face.
So logically, if CFS were serious about it, they would introduce some form
of work-load testing - examples abound: pack test, beep test, or step test
to name just three of them.
But they haven't. Therefore it is not unreasonable to regard BMI measurement
as being merely a CYA action at HQ - perhaps hoping that the fact that BMI is a
potential indicator of fitness level will be sufficient to appease
WorkSafe....
"See - we DID do something about ensuring our CABA operators are up to the job."
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CFS i guess have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and I'm telling you I know a couple of lads that cant wear B.A. due to their size and I say it is a good idea for their protection and the guy working with them in a job. As I imagine thier heart wouls be working over time and imagine what it would be like to try and pull them out! Also another mate of mine in the CFS is bordering on that BMI but he is fit and a body builder so the medical practioner took that into account.
Anyway about time our paid staff had to meet a fitness test how many of them don't mind a pie if you know what I mean!
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You make a good point.
Sure a body builder maybe a BMI of 37 but they are fit and healthy. What happens when they go down? Are you going to be able to pull them out? Maybe the BMI isnt just about personal health, its about your partner breaking his back trying to pull you out!
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Im 6'5, weigh 95kg (Add 20kg of BA set and turnouts to that for a rescue) and have a BMI of 22.. Your going to seriously struggle to pull me out too unless you have a similar stature.. - But im fit and healthy.. - Does that mean I can't be a firefighter incase my partner can't pull me out?
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Im 6'5, weigh 95kg (Add 20kg of BA set and turnouts to that for a rescue) and have a BMI of 22.. Your going to seriously struggle to pull me out too unless you have a similar stature.. - But im fit and healthy.. - Does that mean I can't be a firefighter incase my partner can't pull me out?
20kg? try 30kg but you make a good point also.....im gonna go sit back in the corner. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Im 6'5, weigh 95kg (Add 20kg of BA set and turnouts to that for a rescue) and have a BMI of 22.. Your going to seriously struggle to pull me out too unless you have a similar stature.. - But im fit and healthy.. - Does that mean I can't be a firefighter incase my partner can't pull me out?
If your BMI is 22, and you're weight is unmanageable, imagine how much heavier you would be if you had a BMI of 35...
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What?.. Don't think you are on the same wave length.. Im built like a brick sh!thouse.. Not overweight.. Unless im working with someone of a similar build, most people would struggle to get me out of a building..
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What?.. Don't think you are on the same wave length.. Im built like a brick sh!thouse.. Not overweight.. Unless im working with someone of a similar build, most people would struggle to get me out of a building..
BMI is calculated from weight and height, so regardless of why you're heavy, the higher your BMI, the more you weigh.
The point I was trying to make, (although I realise I made it badly), was that if someone with a BMI of 22 can be too heavy for your average FF, then someone with a BMI of 35 could be ridiculously heavy... (More an observation than an argument).
I wasn't calling you fat - sorry if it came across that way.
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I wouldnt worry about BMI's over 35,CFS are going to lose lots of BA operators real fast and BMI's and medicals are going to see to it. :wink:
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I wouldnt worry about BMI's over 35,CFS are going to lose lots of BA operators real fast and BMI's and medicals are going to see to it. :wink:
SA Firey, for goodness sake pick up your dummy and move on. The rules for medicals for over 45's have been in place for a long time. You were told about it if you did a BA reaccreditation last year as you say - or maybe you werent paying attention. Just because no-one spoon fed it to you by means of a couriered letter from Euan doesnt mean that enforcing the rule is wrong. Consultation is there for important changes in the way we operate, not to pander to vocalites who feel the need to be included in everything.....if you need please supply an address and i'll forward a trauma teddy, one, for the use of....
The solution is pretty simple, go see a doctor and get a medical - it's not that hard. Yes, it needs some of your time, but its free (the medical that is)....oh and btw....anyone ever told you that a checkup with the quack every year for us over 45's is actually a GOOD thing. Maybe the glass might just be half full occasionally and we can get back to some fire fighting
Oh....and just to stay on topic while i'm having my 2 cents worth......I can show u more than one weightlifter who is very big on mirror muscles, who's cardio vascular fitness is the size of a pea. Moving hose up and down hills (like we have in my end of the world...u need both. Bring on the pack test for everyone in the CFS i say. No arguments at all then. You can or u cant....simple. Should be good for a few job opportunities in the career side of the Service too, as a few of them might be headed to the comfort of comms or somewehere less operaational ;) Dont disregard the use of the simple BMI filter, its the easiest tool for measure of Obese people that need to be separately scrutinised for an individual assessment. If you're over a BMI of 35, then there is an avenue to be individually assessed (at the CFS expense) and a waver given if the Service Doc thinks u qualify. Thats a pretty fair system
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...please supply an address and i'll forward a trauma teddy, one, for the use of....
Oh if only you were a Ms. Teddy...
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Why can't people just accept the fact the BMI is set @ that level to protect people from themselves.
People with a BMI greater than the limit are simply TOO FAT and are a risk to themselves & All.
The argument that I am just over is no good you are still obese!!! A BMI of 30 is still OBESE get over & find another task you can do or loose the required amount & try again. No-one has said you can't get fitter so sSTOP WHINING!
Not to burst your bubble but fat isn't the only thing that makes you weigh more, MUSCLES also make you gain weight. Just ask a bodybuilder why he\she is trying to put on weight, I'm damn certain it ain't fat the're are after.
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Onther thing to remember is we are volunteers we rely on volunteers and considering recuiting in smaller communities is hard at the best of times making the medical restrictions tight or tighter is just going to make it even harder to get members.
So just because 'we are only volunteers' we dont need to worry about safety issues? I understand what you are saying about numbers of people in small towns, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Obviously saftey is an issue, but not when your brigade kicks the bucket because of a number on a piece of paper, I'm not saying don't draw a line just draw it abit lower and let those immortl words prevail "Common Sence".
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Obviously saftey is an issue, but not when your brigade kicks the bucket because of a number on a piece of paper, I'm not saying don't draw a line just draw it abit lower and let those immortl words prevail "Common Sence".
"Common Sense" perhaps?
The problem with drawing the line lower, is the people that are on the edge of the new line will complain, so you'll need to lower it again, and you'll be stuck in a vicious cycle of line lowering, until there are no standards...
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SA Firey, for goodness sake pick up your dummy and move on.
Mister Teddy...my BMI is not an issue and as for the medical that isnt either, it was the delivery of information given which was actually incorrect.....no trauma teddy required :-P
This had the potential to impact on every brigade so pardon me if I cared for your welfare :evil:
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Muscle actually 'weighs' more than fat does..
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Members.
I think we are starting to lose the point with this discussion.
CFS do require for members to do a medical (duty of care), I am not going to get into the argument how the mdical should be done or how it should be measured etc.
But I will say this. Being a CABA operator for over 13 years, I have noticed that most of the time wearing CABA at a job you do less physical strain than working at a going grassy.
So what I am saying is if we have a mediacal for CABA where is the medical to become a member. I know saying this is going to cause a huge different amount of opinions but when you look at the facts what I am saying is correct.
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Whilst I agree that the BMI is neither the most accurate nor most fair determinant of physical fitness, it is however making the assumption that a person of x height will be within an expected weight range.
THis is not only for their own safety, but for the safety of those who go in with them. As fit as that person may be, the consideration needs to be made that they may in fact be the person who gets into trouble inside a job, and if they are significantly heavier than expected or required, there is going to be difficulty within the rescue, and attempts at moving the person may result in more than the one casualty.
An avenue for appeal or further investigation should be made available. Its a matter of duty of care for the service, to ensure that specialised areas which may encourage physical exertion are moderated to reduce risks.
I do also agree once again we have a shocking habit of 'they'll do'. There are a lot of people who could probably do with investigation, such as people who do have difficulty handling road crash equipment, or in basic functions before they're allowed to qualify.
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At first I posted that I disagreed with the BMI that CFS has introduced, BMI is not best practice and so on, wa wa wa!
Iv'e seen the light though, a partial glimpse of the elusive "Master plan" if you will, for BMI is just the begining, pretty soon a height restriction will come in, 5'11-6'1 requirement, then Athletic build requirement, then hair colour Blond, then eye colour Blue and lastly a strong jaw line, yeah yeah its been tried before I hear you say, but just imagine our own CABA Super Race.
Hang on we need to keep our Super Race, able to be dragged out with close on 25kg of BA on, as well as their body weight maybe 100kg combined.....Too heavy.
So we need Super Strong people, but light enough that with their own body weight and the BA gear on, they could still be rescued by one of their own and if they are all close in build and size, a one size fits all policy would work for PPC.
Simple, OH how obvious, the answer has been there all along, Hobbits, they are compact, huge power to weight ratio, combined with over size feet(excellent stability) and the one size fits all PPC box is ticked as well.
Fitness and endurance of the cute lil buggers is off the scale, and as a bonus if a fight breaks out with one of those SES boys, I want the Hobbits on my side!
Aaaaaahhhhhh my precious's. :-D
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Just what I needed to read ROFLOL!!!!! :-D
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Bring on the NSW pack test, If BMI hasn't killed us that will.
It may well be coming to a place near you soon.
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So how long has this been bandied around TOO LONG!
To all you fat whinny people LOOSE WEIGHT,& GET FITTER.The BMI is set @ 30 and will not be changed.
MOVE ON and LOOSE WEIGHT get fitter BECOME A BETTER FIRE-FIGHTER & try again. All this crap that we will run out of CABA operators is just Your excuse .
end of transmission.
:-D
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30 :? I thought it was 35 :?
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So how long has this been bandied around TOO LONG!
To all you fat whinny people LOOSE WEIGHT,& GET FITTER.The BMI is set @ 30 and will not be changed.
MOVE ON and LOOSE WEIGHT get fitter BECOME A BETTER FIRE-FIGHTER & try again. All this crap that we will run out of CABA operators is just Your excuse .
end of transmission.
:-D
35.
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So how long has this been bandied around TOO LONG!
To all you fat whinny people LOOSE WEIGHT,& GET FITTER.The BMI is set @ 30 and will not be changed.
MOVE ON and LOOSE WEIGHT get fitter BECOME A BETTER FIRE-FIGHTER & try again. All this crap that we will run out of CABA operators is just Your excuse .
end of transmission.
:-D
I mean realistically how many people are not getting through because they are over 35? im sure maybe out of that there is maybe 1 out of 20 that have a genuine reason (body builder) for being over 35. Everyone else need to lose weight..not just for the service but in general for your health!
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So how long has this been bandied around TOO LONG!
To all you fat whinny people LOOSE WEIGHT,& GET FITTER.The BMI is set @ 30 and will not be changed.
MOVE ON and LOOSE WEIGHT get fitter BECOME A BETTER FIRE-FIGHTER & try again. All this crap that we will run out of CABA operators is just Your excuse .
end of transmission.
:-D
Gee thanks for paying us mere mortals a visit and giving us the benefit of your blessed knowledge, bet you type with one hand!
[edit: fix quoting]
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So youv'e done your medical, passed with a BMI of 29 NO PROBLEM, done your course passed NO PROBLEM, can now get into the back paddock eat like a horse BMI 35+ NO PROBLEM, so who polices your BMI for the next 5 years? . :?
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I mean realistically how many people are not getting through because they are over 35? im sure maybe out of that there is maybe 1 out of 20 that have a genuine reason (body builder) for being over 35. Everyone else need to lose weight..not just for the service but in general for your health!
I just looked up this BMI stuff and have to say I'm very surprised the CFS standard is 35 and not 30. See http://www.cfs.org.au/training/breathing-appartus-medical.asp (yes with the spelling error) and download the medical form. 35 is well into 'obese', 30 is the top end of 'overweight'. Eg. http://www.mydr.com.au/tools/bodymass.asp
Reading these threads here about CABA and BMI you would get the impression CFS is imposing overly onerous standards on people but I don't think that is the case, in fact perhaps they don't go far enough. I easily meet the max BMI figure but don't feel I am fit enough for BA (I am in the 'overweight' category, will have to work on that!).
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I mean realistically how many people are not getting through because they are over 35? im sure maybe out of that there is maybe 1 out of 20 that have a genuine reason (body builder) for being over 35. Everyone else need to lose weight..not just for the service but in general for your health!
I just looked up this BMI stuff and have to say I'm very surprised the CFS standard is 35 and not 30. See http://www.cfs.org.au/training/breathing-appartus-medical.asp (yes with the spelling error) and download the medical form. 35 is well into 'obese', 30 is the top end of 'overweight'. Eg. http://www.mydr.com.au/tools/bodymass.asp
Reading these threads here about CABA and BMI you would get the impression CFS is imposing overly onerous standards on people but I don't think that is the case, in fact perhaps they don't go far enough. I easily meet the max BMI figure but don't feel I am fit enough for BA (I am in the 'overweight' category, will have to work on that!).
I see all that obese people are still whining what is this this was started CABA BMI
« on: August 23, 2008, 09:41:43 PM »
Give up & grow up. New topic needed.Boring :roll:
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I mean realistically how many people are not getting through because they are over 35? im sure maybe out of that there is maybe 1 out of 20 that have a genuine reason (body builder) for being over 35. Everyone else need to lose weight..not just for the service but in general for your health!
I just looked up this BMI stuff and have to say I'm very surprised the CFS standard is 35 and not 30. See http://www.cfs.org.au/training/breathing-appartus-medical.asp (yes with the spelling error) and download the medical form. 35 is well into 'obese', 30 is the top end of 'overweight'. Eg. http://www.mydr.com.au/tools/bodymass.asp
Reading these threads here about CABA and BMI you would get the impression CFS is imposing overly onerous standards on people but I don't think that is the case, in fact perhaps they don't go far enough. I easily meet the max BMI figure but don't feel I am fit enough for BA (I am in the 'overweight' category, will have to work on that!).
I see all that obese people are still whining what is this this was started CABA BMI
« on: August 23, 2008, 09:41:43 PM »
Give up & grow up. New topic needed.Boring :roll:
umm...it was dead and buried over a month ago....why resuscitate it?
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Hahaha.
"I can't believe people are still whining about this issue that no one has talked about in months!"
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The good doctor officially breathes life into it tomorrow(Wed)night, should be interesting! :wink:
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Oh, I'll be here with bells on waiting ;)