SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: pete on June 11, 2008, 02:08:52 PM
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Does anyone know when the CFS is going to address the need to supply such appliances instead of giving us huge 34ps to get around the narrow streets?
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Maybe once the new Burnside Pumper proves itself to be fantastic? ..or maybe never...
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If they provided the correct equipment for the application then maybe the vollies wouldnt loose interest,i know that since we got issued with the one size fits all appliance people dont give a filtered
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care to elaborate a bit more? hard to agree with you when we dont know the full story.
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They currently are providing 34ps to be a appliance to do everything,im not going to name our brigade if you cant guess but we had better technology in 1986,its just too easy for them upstairs to build 20 off this or 20 of that and try and make it fit for everyone.Sometimes looking at the bigger picture is better than being cheap.
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I think they only way we will see Pumpers is when there is a take over of CFS 34p and 24p are not pumpers but a part time pumper.....
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I think they only way we will see Pumpers is when there is a take over of CFS 34p and 24p are not pumpers but a part time pumper.....
ding ding ding, we have a winner!
yeh i agree pete, there seems to be a continual effort to create a "everything-in-one" truck.
Personally, my belief is there needs to be 5 specific fire/hazmat/rescue tender's built by the CFS:
Pumper - Pumper (meeting the same standard as Burnside Pumper)
24,34 - 4WD Tanker
14 - 4WD Quick Attack
Hazmat/Rescue - Custom Build Hazmat AND/OR Rescue Tender
BWC - 4WD Bulk water carrier
no more of this squeezing every ounce of equipment on a single truck = overweight truck :)
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care to elaborate a bit more? hard to agree with you when we dont know the full story.
Thats odd you say that, you seem willing to jump to conclusions illinformed on other occasions
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care to elaborate a bit more? hard to agree with you when we dont know the full story.
Thats odd you say that, you seem willing to jump to conclusions illinformed on other occasions
What the filtered is your problem? If i have an idea about a subject i will comment. It may be the wrong comment but thats not my problem. Its up to others to straighten it out if my comments aren't correct. I have no problem admitting im wrong if proven to be so.
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woah woah woah, guys... peace :)
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Question, Discuss, Inform and Educate..... Ongoing process... lets keep it that way...
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Urban Pumpers = Urban Myth
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As an uneducated person in the ways of firefighting vehicles, can you tell me the difference between all of the aforementioned appliances, what do the MFS drive and are their vehicles suitable for a kind of cross over vehicle between urban firefighting and country firefighting?
Go easy on the criticism, i honestly have no idea of the differences
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Wow, its not like there are pages and pages of discussion already on this topic.
Does anyone know when the CFS is going to address the need to supply such appliances instead of giving us huge 34ps to get around the narrow streets?
Its got very little to do with the size of appliances, and everything to do with the risks your brigade covers. If you can't get there with a 34P chances are an urban pumper will not fit either, unless you have a 12 style light urban pumper.
As has been said time and time again, not every station NEEDS a pumper. There are a handful of stations that NEED a Heavy Urban pumper, and about a billion other stations that think because they have some houses in their area, then have to have a top of the line super duper pumper.
For the majority of the work CFS brigades do 34P's and 24P's are ok. Not great, but they can get the job done. This is of course not to suggest in anyway shape or form that brigades should shut up and take what they are given, or that the CFS should not continuously look at appliance R&D.
yeh i agree pete, there seems to be a continual effort to create a "everything-in-one" truck.
Personally, my belief is there needs to be 5 specific fire/hazmat/rescue tender's built by the CFS:
Pumper - Pumper (meeting the same standard as Burnside Pumper)
24,34 - 4WD Tanker
14 - 4WD Quick Attack
Hazmat/Rescue - Custom Build Hazmat AND/OR Rescue Tender
BWC - 4WD Bulk water carrier
no more of this squeezing every ounce of equipment on a single truck = overweight truck :)
Theres nothing wrong with an all-in-one truck. In many areas it makes sense to cover as many bases as possible, where there is a shortage of personnel or large distances between neighbouring brigades.
Have a look at SAMFS Pumpers (not to mention the pumpers of most other paid fire services in the country) they carry basic Rescue and Hazmat stowage as well as their Urban stowage to allwo them to deal with multiple types of incidents without always needing a specialist appliance.
If the CFS took a look at the chassis that they bought as well as the locker and general stowage setup of the truck, it would be more than possible to add further equipment to trucks without forcing them to be overweight or sacrificing basic stowage.
What would be great would be for CFS to have a modular based system for trucks build ups. Have a few basic chassis, then have a totally modular system for lockers, pumps, extra lighting etc etc. That way, for example, Brigade A and Brigade B both are rural brigades, yet brigade A does Rescue and Brigade B does Hazmat, then they could have the same 4x4 truck, yet a different locker build up for the different gear. Although this too would negate the bulk purchasing power of ordering 50 standard spec 34's.
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What would be great would be for CFS to have a modular based system for trucks build ups. Have a few basic chassis, then have a totally modular system for lockers, pumps, extra lighting etc etc. That way, for example, Brigade A and Brigade B both are rural brigades, yet brigade A does Rescue and Brigade B does Hazmat, then they could have the same 4x4 truck, yet a different locker build up for the different gear. Although this too would negate the bulk purchasing power of ordering 50 standard spec 34's.
I like your thinking Numbers ;)
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Another great urban myth , a standard 34 0r 24 :-D , all of the units that have been produced by the various manufacturers over the last couple of years have all been different in their construction. CFS now needs to look at all of the afore mentioned appliances,gather feedback from us the volies that have to work with the appliances,workout what features work ,what doesnt, then give a full schematic design out when tendering ,so that no matter which manufacturer quotes ,its apples for apples,with approved workable systems.
Aaahhh a dream, a Standard appliance ,with tried and tested features, quality controlled and a tied into warranty.
But wait you want more, a modular system that can accomodate RCR or HAZMAT, why yessir we can do that,because its just a matter of changing some of your side lockers to locate your new equipment as the variations to SOFC for brigades change. HEELL we will even throw in a set of Ginzu steak knives/recipricating saw to sweeten the deal :wink:
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But when has CFS taken any notice of what the Volunteers want for the risk that the brigade has???
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Another great urban myth , a standard 34 0r 24 :-D , all of the units that have been produced by the various manufacturers over the last couple of years have all been different in their construction. CFS now needs to look at all of the afore mentioned appliances,gather feedback from us the volies that have to work with the appliances,workout what features work ,what doesnt, then give a full schematic design out when tendering ,so that no matter which manufacturer quotes ,its apples for apples,with approved workable systems.
Aaahhh a dream, a Standard appliance ,with tried and tested features, quality controlled and a tied into warranty.
But wait you want more, a modular system that can accomodate RCR or HAZMAT, why yessir we can do that,because its just a matter of changing some of your side lockers to locate your new equipment as the variations to SOFC for brigades change. HEELL we will even throw in a set of Ginzu steak knives/recipricating saw to sweeten the deal :wink:
I agree with the ideal,,, but how would you cope with changes in technology ? (eg pumps, lights, rescue, etc) ? Would you wait to evaluate the new technology before changing the standard specification, which means you would always be a few years behind current technology ?
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Another great urban myth , a standard 34 0r 24 :-D , all of the units that have been produced by the various manufacturers over the last couple of years have all been different in their construction. CFS now needs to look at all of the afore mentioned appliances,gather feedback from us the volies that have to work with the appliances,workout what features work ,what doesnt, then give a full schematic design out when tendering ,so that no matter which manufacturer quotes ,its apples for apples,with approved workable systems.
Aaahhh a dream, a Standard appliance ,with tried and tested features, quality controlled and a tied into warranty.
But wait you want more, a modular system that can accomodate RCR or HAZMAT, why yessir we can do that,because its just a matter of changing some of your side lockers to locate your new equipment as the variations to SOFC for brigades change. HEELL we will even throw in a set of Ginzu steak knives/recipricating saw to sweeten the deal :wink:
I agree with the ideal,,, but how would you cope with changes in technology ? (eg pumps, lights, rescue, etc) ? Would you wait to evaluate the new technology before changing the standard specification, which means you would always be a few years behind current technology ?
Geez bajdas, (pauses whilst looking a his feet nervously pushing dirt around) I dont want to be the one to break the news to you, ........but we are, with some exceptions, a few years behind current technology! its a not having enough money thing or something like that.
What we may need to embrace is a set time say 6 years,between design modifications so we can have some consistency in the fleet, who knows it might happen, one day soon :wink:
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From the appliances we have been supplied with so far, in my opinion the best build was the 2006 Isuzu FTS 750 34's, with only one problem with stowage, 3 x 64mm hose yet 4 x 38mm :-o
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From the appliances we have been supplied with so far, in my opinion the best build was the 2006 Isuzu FTS 750 34's, with only one problem with stowage, 3 x 64mm hose yet 4 x 38mm :-o
Ours isn't too bad except for ongoing electrical issues ( that seem to never be completely fixed) and the second hand siren installed in it crapped itself.
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Geez bajdas, (pauses whilst looking a his feet nervously pushing dirt around) I dont want to be the one to break the news to you, ........but we are, with some exceptions, a few years behind current technology! its a not having enough money thing or something like that.
What we may need to embrace is a set time say 6 years,between design modifications so we can have some consistency in the fleet, who knows it might happen, one day soon :wink:
Geez Jaff....I'm NOT a firefighter so I don't know the technology differences in pumps....... :evil: :lol: :lol:
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From the appliances we have been supplied with so far, in my opinion the best build was the 2006 Isuzu FTS 750 34's, with only one problem with stowage, 3 x 64mm hose yet 4 x 38mm :-o
That sucks! More of the hose that you use, less of the stuff you dont! Terrible!
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Makes relay pumping a bit hard especially if the appliance you are relaying to doesnt have any 64mm to give you :?
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so what do yu actauly have on the 34 now? we have 4x64 and 4 or 5 38 on our 24?
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But when has CFS taken any notice of what the Volunteers want for the risk that the brigade has???
Because some vols are clueless to what they requie to acctually look after their area
Its not always a we want world, need to justify why you would like it, and not just sook and winge that we want one cause the brigade up the road has one
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Makes relay pumping a bit hard especially if the appliance you are relaying to doesnt have any 64mm to give you :?
Wouldn't that be a fault of the appliance you're pumping to, not yours? Should we be carrying a spare set of rescue gear for the appliances not stowed with it too? :P :P
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Right on Fox - bout time some take a reality pill and settle!
Makes relay pumping a bit hard especially if the appliance you are relaying to doesnt have any 64mm to give you :?
Wouldn't that be a fault of the appliance you're pumping to, not yours? Should we be carrying a spare set of rescue gear for the appliances not stowed with it too? :P :P
Yep that sounds like a great idea - not! Great comment
cheers
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So then, dear friends, what happens in a long relay pump to a monitor or an aerial applaince at the end? If you're at the start of a relay, you're using your 64mm hose for delivery of water to the next pump, and if not draughting, your 64mm is also connection to the water supply point.
Then the question is, how much hose is enough?
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are we talking about a 34 or a pumper/ aerial/ something urban enough to carry a monitor because if it is that latter then i would expect that they would have stacks of 64mm hose.
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Another great urban myth , a standard 34 0r 24 :-D , all of the units that have been produced by the various manufacturers over the last couple of years have all been different in their construction.
The Don MacArthur 24/34's - the first & last truly "standard CFS appliances".
Sheesh that was a long time ago !!
And them some pedant comes along & points out that standardisation is the enemy of innovation.
So which is more important ?
And how does one innovate while maintaining standards ?...
(at this point I run away & hide :-D )
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Simple.
Standardise a big batch, then make a prototype truck, send it around to brigades for feedback, give it to a busy brigade to trial. If it looks good then the next standardised batch becomes that. And so on and so forth!
In the meantime, innovation can be retrofitted.
I'd love to see the appliance replacement logic currently implemented. I would have thought that there would be 5-10 brigade that would be getting all the new stuff (yes, the busy brigades that actually do work) with everything filtering down from them. In reality it seems to be quite the opposite.
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The thing that im not happy with is the fact that my Brigade was told by Region One Commander/Officer/Brigade Captain that except this Appliance for a couple of years and we are then in line for a purpose built Urban/Rural Appliance.Guess what two or more years later we have been told they arent looking at that till later on.Since then we have lost membership and care factor has gone down hill,so good on ya CFS for saving a buck and making your lives easier building 20 of this?????
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I have to agree the standardisation of the 24/34's of the late Don McArthur era will be the only appliances we ever see "standard"
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I have to agree,each area has its own needs
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The thing that im not happy with is the fact that my Brigade was told by Region One Commander/Officer/Brigade Captain that except this Appliance for a couple of years and we are then in line for a purpose built Urban/Rural Appliance.Guess what two or more years later we have been told they arent looking at that till later on.Since then we have lost membership and care factor has gone down hill,so good on ya CFS for saving a buck and making your lives easier building 20 of this?????
Anyone thats been in CFS longer than 5 years knows that CFS is full of crap and will tell you anything to get you to accept a truck, then once you have it in the station its all over.
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When the government stop giving us second rate equipment they might retain some of the volunteers :-P
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I'm with you there PumpRescue, CFS management (or some of it) is full of it. I heard from reliable sources a year ago that a replacement appliance was on the way to replace our ageing 2-4, and a year later.... nothing. And secondly, when talking to a Regional Officer not long ago about getting a 2/3-4P to help in dealing with the multiple B risks in our area instead of a 2/3-4, i was told that it wasn't an option because we don't have any boosters to use it with. While i concede that this is true at the moment, i also see that it will occur soon on at least one site, and at the moment i am looking at the other options a 2/3-4P gives us - Clark mast for better lighting, user friendly BA mounts, Dual cab, blah blah blah blah etc, oh and by the way - an underweight truck that doesn't lean to one side and is safe to drive and doesn't need repair work every two months, and that the crew have confidence and feel safe in. Oh and by the way, how about making the region spares a bit more up to the task of being used as a spare appliance instead of being the disgraceful looking, and fitted out, and equipped, pieces of turd that they are.
Anyway i've had my whinge and i'm happier now.
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Good on you guys,the more we speak up the more they have to listen,after all we are the ones that have to work with this scheiße.The MFS wouldnt put up with it so why should we????
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Intresting they say you must have a booster before you can have a 34P..... As we all know 95% of booster systems arent capable of being boosted by a 34P!
Think its time the vollies started getting more of a say on vehicle design and placement in the state!
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"Think its time the vollies started getting more of a say on vehicle design and placement in the state!"
Regarding the above, while I agree with the sentiment, would surely prove to be completely unmanageable in practice - how long would the consultation process be? There would never be 100% agreement between some people on one or more items so someone would have to make a choice which would lead to some people taking the 'I said something but no-one listened to me' line etc etc
Many volunteers would also have no idea on how to take the wider picture on other areas needs (and I mean needs, not wants) and all would be vying for the best equipment (which is fair enough), but there will never be enough to go around and someone somewhere will end up with an truck which is 'older than someone elses' or doesn't have an X or a Y on it etc.
Let's face it, even if substantial funding was to be found to upgrade everything now, how long before half of it was ready/built/provided to the brigades, by then, half of them would want something else/newer/different......
I'm certainly not defending the current ways of working and there is certainly room for improvement, but opening the system to every man and his dog would be even more stifling to the production and supply of equipment??
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Intresting they say you must have a booster before you can have a 34P..... As we all know 95% of booster systems arent capable of being boosted by a 34P!
haha, very right camo! 34P is merely a 34 'Premium'...Better Scene Lighting, more stowage locker space (still, not enough), and a few other improvements.
more on the "better scene lighting"...quite sure that it helps with the OHS, so wondering why plain 34's are missing out on it.
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Lets face it,saftey doesnt come first,money does.In my opinion,rear mounted pumps put crews in the path of traffic,not good.The cheaper hose reels do not release easy like the hanney ones,so by the time you get the hose out youve lost alot of energy.The BA cylinders are bad for our backs,way too heavy when we could use lighter ones.The Cabs are very high and the centre of gravity is more dangerous than a proper designed fire appliance.Come on CFS you did better in the nineties.
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"Think its time the vollies started getting more of a say on vehicle design and placement in the state!"
Regarding the above, while I agree with the sentiment, would surely prove to be completely unmanageable in practice - how long would the consultation process be? There would never be 100% agreement between some people on one or more items so someone would have to make a choice which would lead to some people taking the 'I said something but no-one listened to me' line etc etc
Many volunteers would also have no idea on how to take the wider picture on other areas needs (and I mean needs, not wants) and all would be vying for the best equipment (which is fair enough), but there will never be enough to go around and someone somewhere will end up with an truck which is 'older than someone elses' or doesn't have an X or a Y on it etc.
Let's face it, even if substantial funding was to be found to upgrade everything now, how long before half of it was ready/built/provided to the brigades, by then, half of them would want something else/newer/different......
I'm certainly not defending the current ways of working and there is certainly room for improvement, but opening the system to every man and his dog would be even more stifling to the production and supply of equipment??
Obviously i should of explained myself better.
I think a committee (1 staff and 4 vollies) within each region to design and determine where new appliances go within their own region would be a good idea. we are all adults and im sure those on the committee are mature enough to see their region as a whole and not be their to benefit themselves.
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Sounds good Cam,but lets just make it clear it should be active firefighters who get on these committees not some group officer or retired member who has not been on a fire appliance in 10 years....
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The high centre of gravity on the Isuzu's 750's is because its a Heavy 4x4 (sory if thats stating the obvious).
The way I see it you guys what everything - 4x4 capability, large weight carrying capacity, an urban pumper capabilty, ergonomically friendly, an ability to carry a wide range of equipment & a rural appliance!
This is a very tall order indeed, infact you are talking three vehicles (or maybe 4) in one & you want them everywhere!
Not sure of the cost but it would be huge & commercially there isn't anything available off the shelf that meets all of the requirements (Urban appliance, Rescue & Rural Appliance) in one package that suits everyone's ideas.
And Cam your idea on a vehicle/ equipment committee is great - if the right people can agree & have the time to have all of the meetings required (we have a vehicle committee - good people but haven't met in a while).
So hopefully you guys can work out this issue as it seems to be a major problem.
cheers
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The way I see it you guys what everything - 4x4 capability, large weight carrying capacity, an urban pumper capabilty, ergonomically friendly, an ability to carry a wide range of equipment & a rural appliance!
your spot on chook 8-) but do "we" as the fireground firefighters, want this? or would we prefer to have more specialised units.
- Keep the traditional rural 14 and 34's.
- Develop the 34P into a 2WD 2500L High stowage capacity pumping appliance.
- and of course a 9000L tanker.
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Agree with Zippy, need trucks designed for the jobs they do. At the station I am based at we have 3 trucks, a 24p, 34 and a tanker. We are mainly an urban brigade but do have vast grass lands and hills areas also, I would see the right mix of appliance would be an urban pumper for our Urban area and 34 and tanker for the other, I see this as being a good mix. The 24P is just not up to the job of stowage and pumping capacity for Urban firefighting in my opinion.
Other brigades would be suited to a 34P or 24P etc, just need to look at specific needs of brigades rather than a 1 size fits all approach.
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just need to look at specific needs of brigades rather than a 1 size fits all approach
yeh i agree, but it would be acceptibly impossible to cater for everyones needs as that would require a lot of micro managing, meanwhile you could offer a range of items that are customisable to your needs. I.e are you hazmat or are you rcr? A good aim (not the only one) should be to reduce the extra time and effort required by us firefighters on stuff that could be done during manufacturing before delivery.
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Sounds good Cam,but lets just make it clear it should be active firefighters who get on these committees not some group officer or retired member who has not been on a fire appliance in 10 years....
Yeh yeh thats right ,because once you become an officer of senior rank or a groupy all your brains get sucked out ,your years of experience evaporate into nothing more than unintelligeable,disjointed thoughts and your no good for anything other than sitting in a air-conditioned vehicle or base ,making dumbass decisions that will ultimately lead to the demise of the whole organisation!! :-D
Or maybe the more senior appointees are a little bit more used to divorcing themselves from being brigade centric and taking a holistic approach to the needs of the brigades/groups/state as a whole, either way you will never please everyone with a single vehicle design,but a good start would be to iron out the quality control issues before delivery.
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In my opinion,rear mounted pumps put crews in the path of traffic,not good.
If anything they improve safety on the fireground as well as the situational awareness of the pump operator. Park in the fend off position, and nothing states as pump operator, on a road you have to stand at the back the whole time you are operating the pump.
The cheaper hose reels do not release easy like the hanney ones,so by the time you get the hose out youve lost alot of energy.
If you get that tired pulling a hose reel, how about looking at your general fitness? I know that it's hard some times - try pulling hose from a 24 with the reels' gear box rooted.
The BA cylinders are bad for our backs,way too heavy when we could use lighter ones.
They're not 'bad' for our back, they are just heavy. If you are wearing your set correctly, the weight should be distributed over your hips rather than your back. Once again... personal fitness?
The Cabs are very high and the centre of gravity is more dangerous than a proper designed fire appliance.
The trucks are high because most of them are are 4x4, as already stated here. Look at the SAMFS pumps, even they have a few steps up into hte cab. You don't want NSWFB coach-style trucks do you?
I think a committee (1 staff and 4 vollies) within each region to design and determine where new appliances go within their own region would be a good idea. we are all adults and im sure those on the committee are mature enough to see their region as a whole and not be their to benefit themselves.
It doesn't matter how mature you are, but it is simply impossible for people from a certain brigade to see things from anothers point of veiw. I have never seen a running grass fire in a paddock, how can I possibly imagine what equipment/stowage/truck setup would be ideal? Its the same with people from rural areas commenting on pumpers. What there needs to be is a state committee made up of a number of people from as many areas as possible. Perhaps 20+? The problem then, just like on this board, is separating the people who know what they are talking about from the oxygen theives.
Yeh yeh thats right ,because once you become an officer of senior rank or a groupy all your brains get sucked out ,your years of experience evaporate into nothing more than unintelligeable,disjointed thoughts and your no good for anything other than sitting in a air-conditioned vehicle or base ,making dumbass decisions that will ultimately lead to the demise of the whole organisation!!
Yeah pretty much. ;)
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It doesn't matter how mature you are, but it is simply impossible for people from a certain brigade to see things from anothers point of veiw. I have never seen a running grass fire in a paddock, how can I possibly imagine what equipment/stowage/truck setup would be ideal? Its the same with people from rural areas commenting on pumpers. What there needs to be is a state committee made up of a number of people from as many areas as possible. Perhaps 20+? The problem then, just like on this board, is separating the people who know what they are talking about from the oxygen theives.
U are so so so right here couldn have said it any better myself...as for the running grass fire doesnt matter how many litres of water u have on board u always just about get it out and u run out of water and away it goes again lol :-D
Mod Note: Fixed Quoting
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Numbers.....
The way i was thinking was each region would design trucks to suit their own region. No more one size fits all - it doesnt work! Granted it could cause issues on inter region strike teams maybe but what can you do? I understand what you are saying, its hard for a basic rural firefighter in region 5 to understand what an urban fringe brigade in region 1 needs or vice versa. But as a region i would imagine everyone would have some understanding as to what a brigade would need especially if you had a good range of people from around your region. Brigades that believe they require an upgraded truck could put their case & facts to the committee to try and get the upgrade.
Zippy.....
The 34P needs to remain 4WD, maybe just need to specialise it more and stop trying to make them do so many jobs. With what you suggested maybe could be developed into a light/medium pumper like the 12's but maybe larger to accommodate the larger tank. Although that would possibly bring you into the same category as the current medium pumpers? Maybe the Izuzu 550 would be a good chassis? instead of the current 900 used in the medium pumper range.
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The 550 is no longer available and the FTR900 is based on the same Sitec 220 engine as the FTS750's the only difference being it has a 7 Speed trans, and is a lower profile chassis but well suited to the Type 2's.
The MFS 500 series appliances are suffering the same problem weight carried.
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The article in this mornings Advertiser mentions the Estimates committee & that ten appliances were being repaired in Adelaide & that the trucks may have been "under engineered". If your looking for it's on page 8 I think.
One of the other issues you have is the bigger the capacity, the heavier the truck. Mack for example produce an excellent 6x6 chassis, however if you don't load it up to near 20 tonne it's too hard on everything (including the occupants). If you replace the suspension with air bags, then you introduce a possible weakness in cross country work.
Maybe your right Cam a purpose built 2 wheel drive Urban pumper is the way to go. However the other thing you have to remember is that it's not good having vehicles sitting around and not being used regularly, as things like rubber seals etc deteriorate (the Army learnt this thru bitter experience). So you would have your urban pumper doing most of the work, your Rural appliance - not so busy etc. And other vehicles (like a purpose built rescue & a 14) as well, requiring servicing, regular maintenance etc.
I guess it's what the community is prepared to pay & what your service is prepared to sacrifice to meet the needs of the brigades.
In other states as you are aware they solve this problem in very different ways.
Anyway I think I've said enough :wink:
cheers
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Glad some people know what they are talking about,for the others stick to guessing or bullshitting if thats whats going to carry you through life.
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Glad some people know what they are talking about,for the others stick to guessing or bullshitting if thats whats going to carry you through life.
This site is a festering hotbed of literary genius,......I'm sure the spies from Hallmark cards and Bumper stickersareus, constantly monitor this site for these pearls, look for that one on a hotted up ute going sideways, near you soon! :-D
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I think the 34P's are fine for what most people need, although they are a little under-engineered, and they also need to look at the plumbing to get more out of the pump, its under done for what it is capable of. I understand the new 34P's are coming out with a 2 stage pump ?
As for the pumpers, well, the NSW Type 2 is better than what we were getting I guess, but still a little under done in some area's. Still don't understand why we have to develop our own trucks all the time, whats wrong with each agency piggy backing each others orders, need a pumper, tack onto the MFS order, MFS need a 4x4 pumping appliance, tack onto a CFS order. anyone needs a rescue tack onto the SES order.
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We deserve better,so cut back two or three trucks a year and spend the money building a better product that will see the test of time and have many photos taken of.No more farmers trucks thanks,the big picture remember...
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No more farmers trucks thanks,the big picture remember...
hahaha, thats the best ive heard yet! good on ya pete.
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No more farmers trucks thanks,the big picture remember...
hahaha, thats the best ive heard yet! good on ya pete.
ah come on bit of twitched 3 gauge wire will hold anything lol :-D
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oh but farmers know how to secure with rivets properly!!!
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Old McDonald had a farm....
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*Cue banjo here*
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Volunteers should not have their say in the build up of an appliance this is up to the body builders but they should have one page justification for why they need an urban pumper whether it is a medium or heavy, if your just full of hopes and dreams and have not fact to back up this document then deal with it. Once you have justified this appliance you can work through with CFS to what stowage you require on this appliance for you brigade to take in hazmat, rescue and any other specialist equipment.
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A CFS designed 4x4 Pumper On-Appliance Hazmat Stowage Layout would be nice to see...doesnt exist yet :cry:
It takes numerous hours to cater for it, all done by volunteers...
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It helps if you have some cad drawings before you start,instead of building it as you go like some Engineering Companys.
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Zippy if you read what i put on, i am saying justify the truck first then sit down and discuss what gear you have and work with it. These days it is easy because most trucks being built are a standard pumper design like the CFA/NSWFB type 3 and 4, you can work off history from cfs they will look at something like this.
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So let me get this straight,the people who are involved with the design and distribution of Government Fire Vehicles are not the ones who put their lives on the line using this equipment.Funny that.You cant polish a turd,but you can roll it in glilter.
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So let me get this straight,the people who are involved with the design and distribution of Government Fire Vehicles are not the ones who put their lives on the line using this equipment.Funny that.You cant polish a turd,but you can roll it in glilter
Pete
I canot speak for the MFS - but I believe this is wrong. I know of only three people within the technical services side of CFS whom are involved with truck designs are all volunteers as well.
Please dont take me wrong - but the CFS is becoming a changing agency and trying to please all is difficult. Look at the stats 10 years ago majority of our work was rural fires, but today with the urban sprawl - Structure Fires and Vehicle accidents are becomming our No 1 response.......
With this in mind our rolls have become quite diverse - and I except the need for specalist vehicles for some brigades.
I just dont like - and this is maybe the wrong term but "Blackmail" by brigades using media to benifit there causes, its just causes problems for all concerned
Its my views
Wayne
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There is no new for CFS to have 4x4 pumpers,its time people noted that a pumper is a pumper for urban work...NSWFB did have some 4x4 pumpers but thye had lots of problems and ended up costing loads of money to run and service...
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Havent got to the stage where im holding a sign up out the front of a building yet.The public sees the urban brigades running around in 34ps and alot of them think that they have an inadequate Fire Service.Plus its saying we only do bush fires and that a MFS truck should be needed as well.
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time for the so called media unit to get out there and show what cfs really do rather than just in the bushfire season.....
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time for the so called media unit to get out there and show what cfs really do rather than just in the bushfire season.....
Now there is the icing for the cake!!
How can the public perceive the CFS as anything other than a Rural service when they only hear about us in Summer?
Other than those in areas directly served by CFS, actually have an idea about what the CFS do year round. Most city slickers assume the CFS only come out of the woodwork on the 1st of December..
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so lets do a city wide COQ for a day to get our image out. :-D
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Its actually the SAFECOM media unit :-D
And I think you guys get fairly reasonable coverage - far better than we do anyway!
Back to Urban pumpers, if the 34P/24P isn't any good, how did it come to be?
And looking at NSW isn't a great idea, a very different setup. Maybe Victorian CFA is closer to the CFS i.e they handle Urban & Wildfire. RFS is mainly rural & village.
Maybe you guys really need to stop & think about what you are after in the first place, as you have gone around & around & had the same answer several times (SAMFS Medium & Heavy Pumpers) - which doesn't fit your current budget does it?
Which means for certain areas to have the extra equipment, others will miss out.
Just my final thoughts
cheers
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Ahhh just ask Burnside, they were specificlly told not to design something the same as MFS, so what can you do.....
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Ahhh just ask Burnside, they were specificlly told not to design something the same as MFS, so what can you do.....
MFS pumpers areeent that great...cant see why we cant have a similar pumper....MFB pumpers in victoria exceeds SAMFS pumpers like a MFS pumper exceeds a 34P
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Thats what I mean if it is being done elsewhere (i.e. someone already has a good design) then what not use it.
Talked to one of the local blokes about the SAMFS Medium pump they have(Isuzu) & yep it has problems. Seems to lean to one side & when they transfer gear to the other lockers, they are told to put it back :-( And some thing about the back axle.
The Vics now have some good Rescue truck designs (SES & CFA) as well, just seems like the answer is there & the problem is half solved, just needs a commitment I guess.
cheers
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everybody seen the Dandendong CFA Support Vehicle they recently got built up? (OZFIRE) that is a awesome example of what could be used here for Specialised Brigade's (more so those like Dalkeith and Stirling, that manage to do both Hazmat and RCR). Get a Hazmat, Respond the Support Vehicle...drop the pod
So far i believe Dandendong have had Rope Rescue, and Hi-Ex Foam Modules created for the rear tray.
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time for the so called media unit to get out there and show what cfs really do rather than just in the bushfire season.....
Now there is the icing for the cake!!
How can the public perceive the CFS as anything other than a Rural service when they only hear about us in Summer?
Other than those in areas directly served by CFS, actually have an idea about what the CFS do year round. Most city slickers assume the CFS only come out of the woodwork on the 1st of December..
If CFS image is your concern, here's an idea - paint all urban CFS appliances red (or red/white like the CFA). Joe public then better associates the red truck with urban firefighting. "It's a red truck, must be as good (or better :-D) as the Met's trucks". They are also more likley to give way in traffic to the approaching red truck than the silly white council truck that has red and blue lights on it.
I know CFS decided long ago that white was more appropriate in a smokey environment - but that doesn't apply to a Type 2 medium does it!
:-D :lol: :wink:
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time for the so called media unit to get out there and show what cfs really do rather than just in the bushfire season.....
Now there is the icing for the cake!!
How can the public perceive the CFS as anything other than a Rural service when they only hear about us in Summer?
Other than those in areas directly served by CFS, actually have an idea about what the CFS do year round. Most city slickers assume the CFS only come out of the woodwork on the 1st of December..
If CFS image is your concern, here's an idea - paint all urban CFS appliances red (or red/white like the CFA). Joe public then better associates the red truck with urban firefighting. "It's a red truck, must be as good (or better :-D) as the Met's trucks". They are also more likley to give way in traffic to the approaching red truck than the silly white council truck that has red and blue lights on it.
I know CFS decided long ago that white was more appropriate in a smokey environment - but that doesn't apply to a Type 2 medium does it!
:-D :lol: :wink:
I agree Mr Calspec ;) the decision was made yearrss ago to only have white appliances....how about we introduce the term "Review" into the equation rather than "NO".
White definately is fine for a Rural Fire ground, meanwhile the Urban/Rural Interface...majority being the Adelaide Hills and north/south borders of MFS/CFS....the public population is brought up to know "watch out for the red fire trucks"
SAAS has just been through a Facelift...and i personally think of the Green Yellow and Black now being the colours matching to an Ambulance...rather than Grey, Red, Green
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It's got to be RED :-P
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It's got to be RED :-P
Ignoring the fact that we look like council trucks, I'd argue white is easier to see than red, and hence probably much safer - especially at night.... But i really don't think its worth the argument... ;)
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Do you really think it matters?
Ask the MFS how many people get out of their way or SAAS? Would changing our trucks to red make the difference?
Or is it just that people do not pay attention whilst driving a car?
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would not matter of the appliances whre pink or purple people dont pay attention we just hae to look around our own bacyard and see what colors have been used over the year on pumpers...Yellow,limegreen,flurored(pink) just to name a few..The public pay less attention to lights and sirens now than they ever did....
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Lime Green looks quite alright, probably works better than white :D
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would not matter of the appliances whre pink or purple people dont pay attention we just hae to look around our own bacyard and see what colors have been used over the year on pumpers...Yellow,limegreen,flurored(pink) just to name a few..The public pay less attention to lights and sirens now than they ever did....
WRONG Bill,so so wrong, it does make a difference what colour truck it is, or more to the point what colour it aint, Pink.............. I think NOT :-D
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Gee you fellas bite well :lol:
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Now whats wrong with the old Red with white on top? Best of both worlds!
Also, we need air horns... THEY get people moving.
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His Holyness has returned! (sorry numbers :mrgreen:)
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His Holyness has returned!
Ahhh now I know he was off at world youth day, in some special white vehicle with security all around.. :wink: :wink: :-P :-P :-D
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His Holyness has returned!
Ahhh now I know he was off at world youth day, in some special white vehicle with security all around.. :wink: :wink: :-P :-P :-D
He's Kevin Rudd? :o
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After I got out of that vehicle, it had to be reblessed...