SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Katrina on October 22, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
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Just kinda curious as to what procedures are followed when it comes to appointing paid staff within CFS. How are the positions supposed to be advertised or can they just appoint anyone they feel like without advertising the positions. I am talking about both office staff as well as positional ones
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they are advertised through the SA Government Vacancies pages in Career One and on the Website.
Personally i think its a bit of a conspiracy ;)
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Fairly hefty process to employ anyone to work in state government, even a temp.
Firstly, it is not always guaranteed that when someone leaves a position, that the position will be continued or re-filled.
The normal process, once approval is gained to refil, depending on whether it is ongoing or a time-based position (eg to cover someone going on long service leave/maternity etc), the position is then 'called'.
The initial call can be made internally at first which means only other state government employees can apply. If a successful applicant is not gained, the position is then called externally (often these days the external call is made in parallel with the internal). These jobs appear on www.vacancies.sa.gov.au and are open for a fortnight normally. The site is updated once a week.
Most jobs these days are also advertised in local press for the area and often in the Career One supplement of the Advertiser.
This is where it can really get confusing with the requirements of an application which can range from just a CV to all manner of other things such as written responses to the main criteria of the job. There is a fine art to a job application for the state government!!!!
Once all of this is done, including panel interviews etc, only then (in theory) if a suitable person is not identified, then an agency can be approached to supply someone on an hourly rate......
Although the system is aimed at being impartial and gaining the most appropriate person for a job, there is plenty of room for manouvre, if you know what I mean!!! :evil:
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Did anyone on here apply for the round of paid jobs? I think it was the Coordination Officer positions?
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I did, unsuccessful...think i know where i have to improve the humongus Application, and i also needed to do several things like typing tests even tho i know for myself im capable.
Also i think they already found there ideal people internally.
35ish applications were recieved for 2 positions, and its funny that i know that since part of the job description is to be a Info gatherer/Intelligence officer in the SCC ;)
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In the last week or so CFS has lost around 9 paid staff who have all resigned so there may be more jobs coming up... I think Katrina is asking should all jobs be advertised rather than being in the right place at the right time or better still I know a job is coming up would you like to have it...... CFS like any government department has to advertise any job and the process is very long and can take months,If you have been employed by CFS or who ever before and you know or hear that there is a postion going then you should be able to get a interview and if you get all the ticks then the job is your's....
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Hey Bill, I also heard a few staff had resigned in the last week or two, but 9 is a lot, especially out of a workforce of 90 odd
The ones I heard were
Tim Davis from HQ
Simon Vogel from Region 6
Narelle Rawnesly from Region 2
Neil Ellis from Air Ops
Anthony Thorpe from Region 1
Who else is going ??
Maybe the staff get treated as well as the vollies and that is why they are all leaving, I guess this means less people to look after our needs for a while.
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I heard it was more like 12 with more from Region 1 than listed above.
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Region five has lost two staff one has resigned and one is going back to the city to work but still staying on with CFS... With summer knocking at the door dont know how they will fill these spot's with new blood.....
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OUCH!
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Hey Bill, I also heard a few staff had resigned in the last week or two, but 9 is a lot, especially out of a workforce of 90 odd
The ones I heard were
Tim Davis from HQ
Simon Vogel from Region 6
Narelle Rawnesly from Region 2
Neil Ellis from Air Ops
Anthony Thorpe from Region 1
Who else is going ??
Maybe the staff get treated as well as the vollies and that is why they are all leaving, I guess this means less people to look after our needs for a while.
Add Stoney to the list
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hmm..i thought Stoney left a while back..what exactly did stoney "do" anyhow?
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He was working in a LOGISTICS job oversea's and so has taken a full time job there I guess he will come back to SA one day....
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Hey Bill, I also heard a few staff had resigned in the last week or two, but 9 is a lot, especially out of a workforce of 90 odd
The ones I heard were
Tim Davis from HQ
Simon Vogel from Region 6
Narelle Rawnesly from Region 2
Neil Ellis from Air Ops
Anthony Thorpe from Region 1
Who else is going ??
Maybe the staff get treated as well as the vollies and that is why they are all leaving, I guess this means less people to look after our needs for a while.
Pretty sure Tim's been gone for a while and Narelle only transferred to Waymouth st? didnt actually leave?
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I thought that the CFS/MFS/SAFECOM are going to start recruiting off this forum! Everyone on here is a rocket scientist specialising in fire service operations...you are all in the running for CHIEF!!! :-D
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So have they announced who got the State Coordination jobs? It would be a good foot in the door in the world of Career CFS.
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Okay I'll get quite specific then, there was an admin job at region 5 that must have just been offered to someone (only part time) because the job was never advertised at all and I was curious to know what the procedure was because I would have liked the chance to at least look at what the job entailed and maybe have applied for it. The first that I knew about the job was when someone said to me that they had been offered the job there, just wondered it you have to be friendly with the people in the office so that they give you a job. I would have assumed that there should be some procedure to follow and was curious
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MMMMMMM, Kat, I know the girl who got the job and she has worked for CFS before and she does a great job and when she was there before she was well liked by the staff and those with in region five who had contact with her. May be it was because of this that she got the job..... I am sure if you keep a EYE out that you will see some jobs coming up....
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MMMMMMM, Kat, I know the girl who got the job and she has worked for CFS before and she does a great job and when she was there before she was well liked by the staff and those with in region five who had contact with her. May be it was because of this that she got the job..... I am sure if you keep a EYE out that you will see some jobs coming up....
That may be so, but there are also numerous other things that you can do to get the jobs that come up...
Sad, but its the way SACFS seems to operate.
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Yeah, but the point is Bill that there is no point in keeping an eye out for the job coming up because it was never advertised in the first place! So how do ya get a foot in the door when the staff already there can just employ their friends and people that they like?!
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MMMMMMM, Kat, I know the girl who got the job and she has worked for CFS before and she does a great job and when she was there before she was well liked by the staff and those with in region five who had contact with her. May be it was because of this that she got the job..... I am sure if you keep a EYE out that you will see some jobs coming up....
That may be so, but there are also numerous other things that you can do to get the jobs that come up...
Sad, but its the way SACFS seems to operate.
I say, was that innuendo good fellow?
Unfortunately, it seems that like with many places, if you wish to advance its not a case of what you know, but WHO you know... biblically or otherwise
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I say, was that innuendo good fellow?
Unfortunately, it seems that like with many places, if you wish to advance its not a case of what you know, but WHO you know... biblically or otherwise
Tally ho old chap! Knowing people biblically is far more advantageous in the CFS compared to the 'otherwise' interpretation of the term.
Now I'm off for a spot a Jerry Bashing! Time to take the fight right to the Boche!
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Hey Katrina if you are unhappy how this position was filled then you can take it further,but just remember once you do then you will then become part of that group in region five who end up on the HIT list....As you know I am second from the top.....
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only second Bill? you've got more work to do then! (and now you've made me curious who numero uno is)
re. filling vacancies, I would have expected CFS, like any employer to first fill any vacancies from within it's own before going externally. There is an entry level admin position in region 1 going and probably an RO position or two as well (ads to appear shortly).
(PS. thorpy technically hasn't resigned but taken 12 months leave)
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Seemed to appear today...
REGIONAL OPERATIONS PLANNING OFFICER
(MORE THAN ONE POSITION) (Advt)
Location: Region 1 Mt Barker, Region 2 Willaston, Region 6 Port Lincoln
Essential Minimum Qualifications: A relevant tertiary qualification at dilpoma (AQF-5) level or above. ;)
Seems like Region Ops Plannings been hit hard over the state....
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Numbers in my experience its best not to work with people that you know "biblically" - can create all soughts of problems later on :wink:
Hows the Jerry bashing going?
tootle pip :-D
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I can think of a few reasons people are leaving CFS.
1 - They get nowhere near as much $ as other fire services.
2 - Safecom seem to be taking alot of "power" away from cfs.
3 - The private sector like mining etc is offering alot better conditions.
Thats a few off the top of my head.
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Not enough is simply getting invested in CFS "management and support" Staff. Infrastructure/Logistics is one area that i hear is just so under-staffed its not funny.
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I can think of a few reasons people are leaving CFS.
1 - They get nowhere near as much $ as other fire services.
2 - Safecom seem to be taking alot of "power" away from cfs.
3 - The private sector like mining etc is offering alot better conditions.
Thats a few off the top of my head.
from discussions with a couple of those leaving ...it's more like always being asked (and expected) to do more with less. Spending excessive time away from home or being expected to work ridiculous hours (60+ a week in many cases)feature highly.
Certainly remuneration is an issue..... a Regional Planning Officer gets mid $55ish which is just rubbish for the responsibility and role. I have a secretary (well PA in modern speak) that gets almost as much. Add $20k to the RO role and u'll be getting close to market rate. Same same for the training officers. CFS trades on guys enjoying the lifestyle and being dedicated to the service as a trade for crap pay. To a point thats fair enough....but when u add up the amount of time they spend at work.....then it wears thin there as well.
Stand by for more, we may not have seen the last of them just yet :wink:
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...it's more like always being asked (and expected) to do more with less. Spending excessive time away from home or being expected to work riciculous hours (60+ a week in many cases)feature highly.
Thats sounds 100% fact. When a single person has to work 60+ hours for a number of weeks a year, that sounds about time to hire a 2nd person to support that workload.
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I know that jobs are advertised internally to the government employees first. If they are not filled within a 'certain' period of time they are then posted publicly. Obviously frustrating to the people left behind as they have to pick up the workload while the red tape increases the time for the job to be filled into the months. State Government policy rather than CFS.
You can tell on the home page quick search bit where it gives the options for searching 'I am a current South Australian Government employee' or 'I am not a current South Australian Government employee'
http://www.vacancies.sa.gov.au/asp/public/Home.aspx (http://www.vacancies.sa.gov.au/asp/public/Home.aspx)
Red Tape...she's a wonderful thing
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The other issue that has come out of all of this is that if staff wanted to take a year off with out pay they should be allowed to,rather than someone saying NO you can't..CfS need to take a look at how they treat staff and the hourse they work,money is the big problem as these people get paid crap.....I get paid more money than some of the staff but in saying that I also have to make the company I work for money...
It's a shame that some of those people that are or have left CFS will be missed and it will be very hard to replace them so close to the fire season...
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Whats that saying , Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys.
There are a few exceptions to the rule. For those interested Stoney is working as a base camp manager for a security detail in BAGHDAD. he will be back in country now for a short home stay before returning.
Bill Your not even on my list at Region five.
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Whats that saying , Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys.
Bill Your not even on my list at Region five.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Pay them what other state's are paying their staff,Now don't we have a JOB share system here where by say staff from CFS/MFS can work in either service for a short time if there was staff shortage??? I think last night some CFS members where some what blowen away by what I said about staff who have left the service,so much so that they wanted to know why I was being so NICE...
I only eat beer Peanuts.........
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Bill, staff are after all public servants. Therefore if you want to pay them more then something else has to go. Comparing public sector to the private is BS, also staff get time in lue for the extra hours, private sector don't in most cases. And according to this forum staff don't know squat so why would anyone want to work for CFS?
think about that the nextime members of this forum attack the "bosses"
cheers
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The Ops planning jobs are advertised in saturdays paper.....
CFS Staff should not be public servants in the traditional sense. They should be employees of a fire service and have wage and conditions parity with other fire services. And be eligable for membership of the UFU.
We are talking about career fire fighting professionals expected to take senior roles within incident management and are grossly under paid for the priviledge.
I haven't checked but wonder what a similar role in the capital cities fire services would be paid. Regional staff absolutely get a very raw deal....IMO
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Could they join the Union if they had enough members willing?
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Is it CFS or UFU that says they can't? considering CFA paid staff can?
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Its the UFU of Australia that says so, within the union rules. This is the same for many other states and firefighting related employment.
Under Section 6 "Eligibility"
6 - ELIGIBILITY
(e) (12) (3) Any person employed in New South Wales:
(a) in the Bush Fire Council of New South Wales; or
(b) as foreman, storeman, stores assistant and transport assistant by the Board
of Fire Commissioners of New South Wales
shall not be eligible for membership of the Union
(e) (12) (4) Any person employed in South Australia:
(a) by the Country Fire Services; or
(b) as technical officer, technical assistant, and caretaker by the South
Australian Metropolitan Fire Service
shall not be eligible for membership of the Union.
(e) (12) (5) Any person employed in Western Australia:
(a) by the Western Australian Bush Fires Board; or
(b) as storeman, store officer, general assistant and technical officer by the
Western Australian Fire Brigades Board
shall not be eligible for membership of the Union.
(e) (12) (6) Any person employed in Tasmania by the Tasmanian Fire Service other than a
person in the classification of Firefighter, Senior Firefighter, Serviceman, Control
Room Operator, Station Officer, Senior Station Officer, Superintendent, Regional
Chief Officer Urban, Regional Chief Officer Country, Deputy Regional Chief
Officer Urban, Deputy Regional Chief Officer Country, Chief Fire Prevention
Officer, Senior Operations Officer and Officers of the Field Division shall not be
eligible for membership of the Union.
(e) (12) (7) Any person employed in Queensland:
(a) in the Rural Fires Board; or
(b) as the Commissioner or the Deputy Commissioner of the Commission or
Authority which is responsible for fire services throughout the whole of
the State of Queensland; or
(c) who is appointed to an office or employed in a position which office or
position:
(i) is immediately below the rank of the persons referred to in clause
(b) of this provision (e) and also
(ii) is equivalent in rank to all other offices or positions referred to in
sub-clause (i) of this clause (c) of the proviso (e) and also
(iii) is responsible to one or other of the persons referred to in clause
(b) of this provision (e) for the management and/or the operations
of fire services throughout the whole of the State of Queensland.
shall not be eligible for membership of the Union.
Don't worry, its an ENTHRALLING read to see who is eligible and who isn't... Try it!
I believe that there should be a Union, or at the least an associated that has balls, to assist CFS volunteers AND paid staff with all issues of their employment. Operational and otherwise.
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Kinda straight to the point isn;t it.
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Don't forget though that Union membership costs money. I'm currently paying around $25 a pay to my union, I don't know how many people in the CFS would 'happily' pay that. Just look ath the number of people who jump behind the "I'm just a volunteer" excuse, can't be bothered with their fitness and can't be bothered taking on extra CFS courses. They certainly aren't going to want to pay MONEY to an organisation that they may never use.
And yet, oddly enough they will no doubt be the first to be up in arms and scream for the union to help...
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Don't forget though that Union membership costs money. I'm currently paying around $25 a pay to my union, I don't know how many people in the CFS would 'happily' pay that. Just look ath the number of people who jump behind the "I'm just a volunteer" excuse, can't be bothered with their fitness and can't be bothered taking on extra CFS courses. They certainly aren't going to want to pay MONEY to an organisation that they may never use.
And yet, oddly enough they will no doubt be the first to be up in arms and scream for the union to help...
ive heard people particularly "whine" about the CFB course...."Not another one!".
Its a very beneficial course to undertake for every BA operator no matter what. Its like the Burnover drill of rural firefighting....
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Don't forget though that Union membership costs money. I'm currently paying around $25 a pay to my union, I don't know how many people in the CFS would 'happily' pay that. Just look ath the number of people who jump behind the "I'm just a volunteer" excuse, can't be bothered with their fitness and can't be bothered taking on extra CFS courses. They certainly aren't going to want to pay MONEY to an organisation that they may never use.
And yet, oddly enough they will no doubt be the first to be up in arms and scream for the union to help...
I'm just a volunteer, its not an excuse, its a fact!
I'm just a volunteer, but it costs me "considerably" more than $25.00 a week to be one!
I'm just a volunteer, but I keep my cardiovascular and strength training up, not for CFS but it certainly helps me out on the fireground!
I'm just a volunteer, but I undertake a shiteload of extra CFS courses!
I'm just a volunteer, though I do the role assigned to me as professionally as I can!
I'm just a volunteer, and I will reserve the right to refuse to do something that I feel maybe wrong or just too hazardous to myself or my crews and if that means that I have to play the "I'm just a volunteer card" to achieve that end, I will!
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Numbers, my guess is the rules for the UFU were written in the days when the unions were powerful. These days they would be happy for the extra membership fees.
Everyone needs to remember that the power the employee organisations comes from the ability to withdraw labour collectively - otherwise its a gang of whingers :wink:
Being a volunteer goes against this ethos - try getting your total membership to not answer calls for 48 hrs, my guess is it wouldn't happen.
Staff members i.e. middle management could never be a part of a union, it would be a conflict of interest - one day forcing through some thing onto volunteers that they won't like & the next out on a picket line complaining about "those filtered bosses"!
Think about this - as I said they get time in lue, they don't make life changing decisions every day, once you are in the public service you are in for life, they may have KPI's but are not "performance managed" or payed on how well they perform & how accountable are they really?
Finally as I heard a very wise man once say to me "toughen up princess" & "If you don't like it you can always see a lawyer" - this is what happens once you start climbing that slippery pole of promotion!
We have people leaving our company everyday, it doesn't mean the company sucks it's just guys making their own minds up on where to go next.
cheers
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Think about this - as I said they get time in lue, they don't make life changing decisions every day, once you are in the public service you are in for life, they may have KPI's but are not "performance managed" or payed on how well they perform & how accountable are they really?
Finally as I heard a very wise man once say to me "toughen up princess" & "If you don't like it you can always see a lawyer" - this is what happens once you start climbing that slippery pole of promotion!
We have people leaving our company everyday, it doesn't mean the company sucks it's just guys making their own minds up on where to go next.
cheers
actually chook, most of the ROs get very little real return of TOIL. They might get a day or two here and there, but the ones I know never re-coup the actual amount of overtime they are expected to work. For my mind it's a very poor work practice thats sponsored by their managers (who in turn are expected to do the same....all the way upwards)
Sure people are able to make big boy and girl decisions and leave if they dont like it....and we then pay the price of a constantly revolving door of new people...and little corporate effectiveness moving forward...just always seeming to tread water or playing catchup. It would be nice to be ahead of the game every now and then in some of these areas - we've certainly invested enough in some of them over time - and arent seeing great returns for that investment.
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Yep I know of people who never catch up on leave (TOIL)in the emergency services & I know there are some very good operators - sadly though there are also some who are just marking time or worse shouldn't be in the positions at all.
Because of the egalitarian society we live in, any improvements to retain the good ones benefit all. It sucks, but that is the way it is.
And until the public service changes, it will always remain that way.
Thats why I would not become payed staff
Anyway I think I have said enough.
cheers
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Im mates with several paid officers in the CFS....They work stupidly long hours, get paid peanuts, are always on-call and have a ridiculous work/life balance.
The CFS relies on staff being commited to the service. Remember most staff started as vollies and a majority still are vollies who have a distinct passion for the CFS and enjoy being employed by the service. It is only now in this time and age where the cost of living is increased and passion/love/commitment to the service plus the shite pay arent enough any more. Factor in the arse covering processes that lurk around every corner and the politics of SAFECOM/CFS/MFS and the private sector really doenst look that bad...
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Im mates with several paid officers in the CFS....They work stupidly long hours, get paid peanuts, are always on-call and have a ridiculous work/life balance.
The CFS relies on staff being commited to the service. Remember most staff started as vollies and a majority still are vollies who have a distinct passion for the CFS and enjoy being employed by the service. It is only now in this time and age where the cost of living is increased and passion/love/commitment to the service plus the shite pay arent enough any more. Factor in the filtered covering processes that lurk around every corner and the politics of SAFECOM/CFS/MFS and the private sector really doenst look that bad...
thats pretty darn unfair on the individual.
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Indeed.
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And once you start climbing the slippery pole in the private sector - same deal (except the pay is better). The world is a changed place and it will not get back to the good old days!
So the next time as a vollie and something minor has pissed you off & you decide to "vent" at the closest payed staff member, remember the crap they have put up with. And its not just CFS staff members - I class my ex regional commander as a real friend & all of the stuff you guys have mentioned he has dealt with as well. And he is a CFS vollie & ex CFS staff member, I would follow him anywhere, even through the gates of hell & yet my previous comments stand! Can't handle it then look for something else - cause it aint changin! It just sucks!
cheers
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Can't handle it then look for something else - cause it aint changin! It just sucks!
cheers
Maybe re-word to "Not willing to put up with it any more? Then look for something else..." Less derogatory to those who choose to pull the plug.
Sad thing is that by penny pinching, the govt actually costs the community extra in
recruitment & training costs. Plus the work that actually doesn't get done at all
because the organisation is not resourced to do it. Plus the work that is done badly -
eg prohibitive or restrictive operating policies because they are cheaper than training
& supervision. (still grumpy, but less so than the other day.)
cheers
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Yep fair call Alan wasn't meant to be derogatory to those who choose to leave the service. Thanks for the correction
cheers
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Always on call?? It there a rostering system for after hours??
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They might be off duty, but there phone might still ring....is what i think he's saying.
theres an on-call system...but looks like its tight rotation circle...rarely "off-call".
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Hi there all
Its already been said prior in the post.........
With the money there offering there not going to get someone there for the long haul or with a alot of experience.....
For those whom dont already know me, I work in the private sector and our starting package is around the 20-30k highter plus and far less responsibility.
I have the greatest respect for the service as we have some great people within but were lossing them rapid pace - and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out why...........
Wayne
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I learnt this week that sadly Amanda has left Region 1 also :-o
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Mandy will be missed so do these staff get a exit interview so as to find out why they leave the service?? There where a number of paid CFS jobs in the local paper here this week for the Planning officer in this region and others across the state...
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and here is just another little twist of the knife....
advertised in todays Public service vacancy site...
ASO5 Operations Officer for the SES Northern Region Pay $61k-$68k
CFS L3 Regional Operations PPlanning Officer $59k - $62k
It seems we cant even get parity with our fanta'd bretheren....let alone the blue shirts. Given that 2 of the current vacancies for Ops Planning types are Region 1 and 2....the HIGHEST profile areas of the state with the HIGHEST risk in the state....the deal is appalling.
Maybe its time to bite the big one and trade a new truck or two for a major salary review - those Brigades with 30 callas a year or so might be able to just cope for another 12 months
Even the monkeys will start leaving soon
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the CFS position clearly requires a wage of over $80k, meanwhile SES probably, $50k? A heap more responsibility under a Level 3 Operations planning staff member in CFS than the SES bloke.
Afterall...the Region 6 Postion...following the Wangary fires you would expect significant investment in the Operations/Planning roles in Region 6 HQ.
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The SES Operations officer is only advertised due to the fact that someone has been acting in that position for the last 18 months. The Position = 2IC for the SES north region based here in Port Pirie.
Thanks,
Jono Taylor
North Region Operational Co-Ordination Unit
Port Pirie
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so they deputise for the Region Commander.....no different to the CFS role, its a component of the J&P
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I would suggest that CFS & SES paid jobs are different, thus in a different PSA scale.
Unless you know both job descriptions and requirements (which I don't) then just accept that someone else has already done the evaluation of the job specifications.
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Moral of the story is pay peanuts and you get monkeys :wink:
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Those advertised salaries would be just the basic wage??
The earned wage would be higher once allowances paid (making the assumption that there are allowances paid for things like being on-call, excess hours worked etc etc
Just need to make sure that you compare similar figures for all people.
However, looking at the grades on offer, I believe they are definitely low for the tasks performed and responsibilities carried, I sure as hell know that I would not be applying for a paid role with grades (and hence salaries) like that!
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I would suggest that CFS & SES paid jobs are different, thus in a different PSA scale.
Unless you know both job descriptions and requirements (which I don't) then just accept that someone else has already done the evaluation of the job specifications.
hey you might be on to something there....the SES job is rated as an ASO 5 (Admin Support Officer) - obviously someone DID evaluate their role :evil:
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