SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: JamesGar on June 26, 2005, 06:58:16 PM
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Hi All,
Just thought I'd let you know Eden has taken delivery of the new type 2 pumper, It's come with a 750 U.S. gpm 'PTO'. I haven't seen it yet, but apparently it looks the goods!
Looking forward to seeing it in action
Catch you soon
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For those that want to see what it looks like, just look up Nuriootpa or Millicent's pumpers on the Promotions unit website, thats what it is, except they now come with turbo's.
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pity the CFS didnt look at buying more of these appliances
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We are all really happy with this appliance.
I will attempt to post some pics in the next few days (if i can figure out how). I am really looking forward to working off it.
if anybody want to look at the spec list for it, go to http://www.semfirerescue.com.au/vehicle_details.php?vehicle_id=2105, you can view the spec-sheet and the NSW version.(looks good in red!!!)
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To post pics click on the gallery link set up your own album and then upload. It should be fairly self explanatory.
Once the pics are uploaded you may (if you want to) post a message in a thread of the forum and link the image into the thread using the images url and the img tags.
For more info - http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=1
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Regarding the specs, its a little more beefier than whats written there, Isuzu have upgraded their engines since the first lot of Type 2's were built, unfourtunate for those people that got the first round, the first Type 2's had the same engine as the first 24P Isuzu's, and we all know how gutless they are!!
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From what I have seen / heard, the Turbo's make a world of difference!
Would it be an option to have all the 24P's , Pumpers, etc, that were made without the Turbo, have them fitted ?
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Thats affirmative i believe, (not that im a mechanic), but we are looking at having one fittwed to our Isuzu 24P
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Any idea on the Price ?
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Ok, I have worked out how to post pictures in the gallery, but no idea how to put in a link to them. :?
ill post a few more when i get some good shots of it in action.
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I like the look of the vehicle, and don't mind the rear mount PTO.
Steve, just a few quick questions from me!
Does the Pump have 4 inlets (64mm) + 100 suction and 4 outlets?
Hard to judge in the photos, but on the passenger/officer side of the appliance at the front of the lockering is that a direct inlet to tank for filling?
Does it have a monitor?
When's it going on line?
Hope you guy's like it!
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The all important question, how does the pump perform compared to the Louisville (when the Louisville was in its prime).
Also, truck power wise, how does it go, does the turbo make the difference you need to actually pull away up hills.
Whats the locker space like compared to the Louisville?
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Pump on the Louisville is the same as on Belairs, a Darley JMP 450 GPM (2 Stage for Volume or Pressure), Type 2 comes with a Rosenbauer Multistage (3 Stage) 750 GPM pump which should be able to simultaneously pump pressure and volume! On paper it should almost be twice the pump!
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yeah, 4 inlets plus 5in storz on the rear, plus the direct fill on the passenger side.
this one does not have a monitor, sadly.
we are looking to go online this week or early next. should ber great to get it into the fray, see what its like at jobs.
Locker space seems really good, well illuminated by fluroescent ights. as far as power, i have not driven it yet, but all those who have say that it goes like a rocket.
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Good , Good!!
I was afraid that it would be sluggish, the first one was minus the turbo.
Keep us informed as you go to see how she performs.
Thanks
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Looks good!
Would like to see it without the Bull bar, and would like it to be fitted with BA seats.. (Even just 2) , it can be a crucial difference.
The pump sounds fantastic! And I like the sound of 4 in, 4 out!
All in all, not a bad looking/sounding rig!
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Just how much clearance is there when you park it????........ doesnt look like a lot....
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if anybody want to see one without a bullbar, look up nuriootpa or millicents appliances.
As far as i understand, due to the ADR, if we were to get BA setas, the appliance would have to be re-complianced, and there is also issues with OH&S. WOuld love BA seats, tho...
Will keep you all posted as we get to know it.....
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I think you will find the BA seats won't fit in the small cab of the Isuzu, you would smack your head on the roof!
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What is the current fit out for BA? Eg. Swing Arms? Hydrolic arms that drop / come out ?
How easy is it to get into BA ?
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I was ment to be at eden hills last friday taking pictures for the promo unit but wife had a baby but my brother in law says there all happy with it mind you it was missing some gear and this leads me to think that CFS really should buy appliances that came fully stowed from the firm that make's these units. Once again skilled have done a great job and I for one have been pushing for sometime for the CFS to buy more of these type two pumpers and it looks as if I have hit a large brick wall :x
As for a monitor dont be too fast to put one on unless you are able to have a appliances that is able to feed what your pump and the monitor push out. Here in Naracoorte we dont have any other unit around that is able to supply our 550gl (USA) deck mount.
Hope you all enjoy the new pumper and I shall be back soon I hope to get some pictures of the pumper and the crew..
blinky bill
naracoorte CFS
my view only
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I guess it would be an issue down your way Bill as apart from your pumper there ain't much else in the way of pumping applainces.
Shouldn't be an issue in the sturt group.
Steve, the fact that it doesn't have a monitor, are you going to miss that option, I guess you could get a ground monitor if need be.
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Even in the Sturt Group delivery of water for a monitor is an issue - the times they have been used in anger for extended periods(Blackwood Cold Stores, Blackwood Primary School, Caddies tavern, Johnsones Fabrics - the major uses in last 15 years) the majority of pumps have been used in initial attack. Although having the Belair Tanker now eases this as does it's instant supply of 10,000.
Quick solution to no monitor, is to follow the rest of CFS and re-introduce the training and use of hose created ground monitors - otherwise for those close to Adelaide theres always the option of an aerial :-o
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No, i dont think we will miss the monitor. Really, on the odd occasion we need it, as Oz said, we can use a hose-created ground monitor.
the BA sets are mounted on swing-out arms. therre is 2 sets per arm. they are perhaps a little bit low, but i dont think this is an issue for most people. I am 6 foot 2 and i can get one on with no problems.
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Roger that, doesnt sound too bad at all.
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According to the page I recieved Eden Pumper went online on Sunday Night. The Loiusville is being kept in the Group as Eden Alpha Pumper incase of any transition problems.
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Yes, I heard about the possible issues, funnily enough those Type 2's are one of the only trucks that have got on with the job without any fuss, might have to use the 24 for offroad stuff, thats the only thing they will miss.
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now that there are three of these pumpers in the state will CFS/SAFECOM,make these the front line pumper's instead of half pumpers like the 24p????
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It looks that way Bill, could do a lot worse than the Type 2, but you will go blue in the face telling the staff that 24P/34P's don't cut the mustard.
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Had a good crawl over the Eden Pumper yesterday, before they had to head out for a HAZMAT job. I'm really impressed in it! Would like an Auto Gear Box though.
Interesting on the Pump is that to Draught from a tank or dam quickest way of filling tank is to run a filler length from an outlet and feed it to the direct tank feed!
Looks the goods!
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CFA Isuzu Type 3 Heavy Pumper??? looks like its a few years old though.
(http://communitysites.impulse.net.au/tarnagullafb/graphics/veh1.gif)
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Had a drive of eden hills new pumper the other day very nice and it pulls up those hills very well,lots of good lighting for working and the pump is very easy to use. I understand the cost was $320,000 and when I asked if this was going to be the standard pumper was informed no as its only a prototype?? mmmmmm well that is funny as CFS have 3 of these pumpers and I would have said if we have 3 then get more,as for a score 10/10....
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question begs to be asked....
how did you manage to scam a drive, without being an eden hills brigade driver?
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Question answered by a third party....
Any person with an MR license can drive any CFS appliance, unless a seperate licencse is required. (Eg, some Tankers etc).
As long as permission was granted (and im guessing it obviously was), im sure it would be easy to tee up a drive.
Remember, we are the CFS, we are not seperate identities, with secret brigade names, and secret handshakes only allowing our own members to look/touch and play with the equipment down the station.... (Trucks included).
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ahh kk, thats fine. but still i am concerned about wether taking it for a "spin" was necessary, as bill is from naracoorte ( i believe???) and has a truck there that is almost a carbon copy....
i just think theres a little too much joy-riding of new appliances sometimes.
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Roger.
I think it would have been more of a 'comparison' to the trucks if anything.
Wil have to ask blinky about that one.
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:-D Lighten up Coro :-D - It's great to be enthusiastic and interested in new things. Being invited to or arranging a drive in a new appliance is a great idea.
Increases inter-brigade communication and helps break down any tribal them and us attitudes. I doubt it was a joy ride. I don't think we look beyond our own worlds often enough, we can learn alot from seeing how others do things. We can't learn if we dont' go and have chats or in this case have a drive. :wink:
What do you think?
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I was given the chance to drive it firstly as the captain of the brigade asked me to compare it with the one down here but also my brother in law is a member of eden hills. I also have taken some new pictures of it and these will be past onto the promo unit,I am sure if you ask then you may get to drive it....
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i would say that few people have there nose out of joint about my drive of this pumper?? it was not a joy ride but a great way to compare this and the two that are in the state. I am fully behind a push to have CFS buy more of these units and would hope they do,corocfs if you have a problem then get over it. We should all be happy that eden hills have this pumper and if more people just took the time to look at what is new in appliances and have more of a say rather than sit on the fence then we may buy some more :evil:
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Ok - no more witching everyone! Need to get your fix of a new appliance - then do it with the Chief!
Now YOU ALL have the opportunity :-D
MEDIA RELEASE: EDEN HILLS CFS TO COMMISSION NEW GENERATION OF FIRE APPLIANCE
The Eden Hills Brigade of the SA Country Fire Service will commission their new fire appliance this weekend.
CFS Chief Officer, Euan Ferguson, will officially hand over the keys to the Captain of the Brigade, Neil Gloyn, at a special commissioning presentation on Sunday 31 July 2005 at the Eden Hills CFS Station.
The new ‘Eden Pumper’ replaces the former ‘Eden 51’ Ford Louisville, which began service in 1984, a year after the Ash Wednesday Two bushfires.
In it’s 21-year history with the Eden Hills CFS Brigade, the former ‘Eden 51’ has attended more than 5,000 incidents including the 2005 Black Tuesday and 1994 Sydney bushfires, as well as major structure fires at the Port Stanvac Oil Refinery, Blackwood High School, Blackwood cold stores, and numerous other homes and businesses.
The new appliance – an ‘Isuzu FTR900’ chassis – is one of three currently in South Australia. It carries 2,000 litres of water and has a rear mounted pump capable of distributing 3,000 litres per minute at 1,000kpa. It is primarily designed for structural firefighting and can assist in hydrant ‘boosting’ giving it the title of ‘Pumper’.
‘Eden Pumper’ is one of two new fire appliances for the Sturt CFS Group. On 26 June 2005, the Blackwood CFS Brigade commissioned their new ‘Blackwood 24 CAFS’ appliance featuring a modern Compressed Air Foam System (CAFS) – the first of it’s kind in South Australia – which uses more foam to suppress fires rather than water.
CFS Chief Officer Euan Ferguson said he was encouraged to see the ongoing initiatives of the Sturt Group coming to the fore of firefighting in South Australia.
‘This new generation of fire appliances will shape the future of firefighting to 2020 and beyond,’ Euan said.
Media are invited to attend the commissioning, which will commence 2pm this Sunday at the Eden Hills CFS Station on Northcote Road, Eden Hills.
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I attended the commissioning yesterday.
A few pics are in Firefrogs gallery. Click on the galery button and then user galleries.
And here http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=1
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So Eden Hills members, after reading all this and seeing the date, how is it all going?
Good, Bad and the Ugly.
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i have but one lament. that is the lack of a 7th seat.
the appliance is performing beautifully. although we have not had a big job yet with it, we are all confident that it is going to meet our wants and needs 100%.
there is a couple of extremely minor niggles, but these are nothing more than the standard new vehicle bugs- leaky air fitting etc...
i dont think that it would be a very practical appliance for a brigade whose priamry call type is grass fires, but for any brigade in an urban area, i give it 2 thumbs up.
for all those out there who say "but it only has one high pressure line", i say when you get to a going job, be it a structure, car, whatever, if you need more than one high pressure line, you should be going to a 38\64 regardless. we have 2 flaked lenghts pre-made, and with a bit of practice, most of us can get the 38 out and into the fray in only a slightly longer time than the HP line.
pump i simple to work, takes a litle practice, but once you get your head round it it can almost be used with your eyes shut...
anyway, like i said, 2 thumbs up.
will let everyone know how she goes when we go to a full blown job..
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Steve - Great to hear - Giddy Up.
Glad you like the pumper and your comments about the flacked 38 are excellent - good to see a very urban briagde who has had a history of 2 x 90mtr HP lines has adapted to the change and excellent to see the use of 38mm lines :-D One question - do the 38mm lines have a variable flow branchs (Protchs, Acrons or similar) or did you stay with the automatics (TFT's) - main reason for query - water use with the 38.
Look forward to a report on how it goes at the big one :-)
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Thanks Steve, good to hear, and good to see the use of 38's more, I often think we rely to much on the HP line. Do the drivers miss not having an auto box?
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interesting to note, the old Eden appliance "Battlestar Gallactica" pmper has turned up to fill our 24s bay while it is off for repairs,,, i had been under the impression that it had already been de-commisioned... apparently not???
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I suppose if its still in working order it would make a really good spare truck.
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i agree.. its the best spare truck you could hope for.
im just confused. every truck swap i have heard of basically the old truck gets driven to where the new one is, you swap keys and head home in the new truck, yes?
the reason eden were given there new appliance was because the ford was 20y.o. and due to be decomissioned, otherwise it would be a stomper of a truck for another brigade to have.
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Yeah, I heard via the grape vine that the reason its hanging around is that Eden will be given some time to get used to the Type 2, and if its not suitable they will get the Ford back until a 34P could be delivered. Again, what I was told when I asked why it was still sitting in Cherry Gardens station.
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I have it from someone up the chain the old eden pumper is going to made into a BWC and will be sent to ???? Cant say sorry and will be in the field for sometime yet. Nice to see the guys at eden are enjoying the new pumper as I said they would,I think they are using proteck on the 38mm flake hose lines. As steve said you dont need the 2nd HP line and if you do you should be using 38/64 mm hose for the job. I hope that all the little things have been fixed and that you guys filled in the report on your new appliances for tech services.
As I have said before its a nice appliances to drive and its much better than I thought it would be for the area that it is in. Would like to hear how it goes on a big job and I am sure it will go well...
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Ahhh, interesting, I am sure the truck is still good, but I hope they don't keep it for too long, I don't fancy a 30 year old tanker getting around as an emergency vehicle. I think the old Mt Osmond/Ironbank truck is now at Rhynie as a tanker, doesn't look to bad, and they kept the Darley PTO pump on it as well, so fingers crossed if they do the same to the Ford then it gets to keep its pump as well rather than a dinky portable pump like Mt Lofty Tanker.
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LOL @ the portable pump on lofty tanker.
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Well, Last night was pumpers baptism of fire, so to speak :evil:
house fire in eden, going quite well.
we had the 38 out and putting water on just as quickly and easily as a Hp.
Pump was excellent, flawless water delivery, even when opening and closing the 38, there was only a miniscule change in the pressure.
deliveries on the side are good, as there is far less to fall over when zipping about going to lockers and what not.
all in all, i think that all those involved were happy as pigs in the proverbial.
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Good to hear Steve, can't be a bad truck when almost every state has at least one of them, a very popular truck, looks like the NSWFB are onto a winner there!!
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Well at last its had a good job and by the sound of it it did well and the crews where happy,did ya take any pictures steve?? if so send them in...
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not sure if there was any snaps taken. we are training tonight, so i will see if there are any.
there is a couple of people who would rather it was an auto box, but mostly everyone is ok to drive the manual.
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Great to hear!
Maybe now the Group will pull it's head in and those who knocked that style of appliance will stand back and have a look.
Nice to see some positive change, and some great results:-)
PS - Did CAFS go, or was taht 'off line' again????
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CAFS offline again, careful, hee hee! :-D
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Yeah, for the cost of this appliance cfs need to just make 4 or 5 and give them to the brigades that need them.
That will stop 90% of the winging in cfs about appliances but i guess it would also take away 90% of arthur and sandys work so they won't want to do that.
Like most paid positions in cfs just keep on the same round about and no-one will question you, that way your job is justified and all is good. Theres less hastle from 17,000 volunteers than 1 paid staff boss so why please the volunteers.
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Actually I think they way they do things causes more hassle, because thye don't listen, and it takes so many hours of our time to get what we need, because we never get what we want, well, 99% of us don't, we all know the special brigades out there!!
But anyway, good to see a good truck come into the service, hopefully it enjoys many years at Eden Hills.
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Yes cafs did go and the knockdown was much better than water.
Why do people bash something that is new.
If we don't try new technologies we will go backwards. Yes CAFS has had a few problems
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I think I would also still like to see one at belair instead of a 34p that they are getting is it too late to order one??? also I think that some people have forgotten that CFS already as two other's of these pumpers and both of these are in brigades that use them alot but really like them and how the operate. Time for arthur to order more.
By the way does cfs still have its working party on appliances or is that gone also????
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Good to hear it had a good run!
Pity bout the Manual g/box....... :-(
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Well not sure about the working party but region 1 now has a pumper commitee made up of brigades that are likely to a get new pumper but from what i've seen its just to make the volunteers think the paid staff are listening to them and i dont think it will achive much.
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Yep, you got it in one Tillerman!!
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:-o
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Actually the working party was looking at something that would work well in the urban interface, It would not be a pumper. Basically still a four wheel drive 34P or similar.
If anyone has seen the four wheel drive pumpers the MFS have recently purchased I think one of them would be nearly ideal for urban interface fires.
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oh yes please, and with the new turbo model Isuzu that would be a nice truck.
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Do you think the CFS might go this way in the future ?
I don't see why we can't tap onto the end of an MFS order, and have White Scanias for the Urban brigades.... After all, the job being done is the same, the equipment needed is the same, the pumping stardards are the same............ Just paint the thing white and she'll be right !!
:mrgreen:
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Do you think the CFS might go this way in the future ?
Probably not, the CFS tends to rely on the red trucks in urban brigade areas so they dont have to justify urban appliances
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hmmmm.... :oops:
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Thats right, but when you try the arguement the other way, you are soon told "we are not here to prop up the MFS" I threw the comment back and was soon told what for!!
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right... neway.
there were rumors flying aorund of CFS getting heavy pumpers some day soon... similar kind of thing to an MFS scania...
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Not in our lifetime, unless we become an intergrated service.
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hmmm well lets not just say things for the sake of posting...
CFS is going to have to upgrade to heaavier trucks, andf more
"urbanised equipment" either that or hand over urban stations. there is no way around it.
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hmmm well lets not just say things for the sake of posting...
CFS is going to have to upgrade to heaavier trucks, andf more
"urbanised equipment" either that or hand over urban stations. there is no way around it.
Thats obvious. So was that for the sake of posting ???
(Don't stir the pot when you don't have too :) )
To the Eden hills guys/gurls on here...
Are you aware to date of any photos from the House Fire ?
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because David seems to think urban brigades arent going to be upgraded in his lifetime... so unless hes not p0lanning on sticking around much longer... lol :lol:
im pretty sure this is going to HAVE to happen within 10 years.
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I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, and I potentially have another 30 years in CFS, unless we get a radical change in the management of CFS, because the people running it now seem to not want to acknowledge the urban risk we face, its all bushfire this and bushfire that. Hello, thats not all we do!! I think the type 2 will be as good as it gets, and they will be few and far between compared to the amount of pumpers we had in the past. Something drastic will have to happen, because they way its going we won't be changing anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, I will continue to fight for change, but I am only one person.
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To the Eden hills guys/gurls on here...
Are you aware to date of any photos from the House Fire ?
Not yet, but i will keep looking.
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Not to sure if it is the people running it - the chief was heavily involved in the CFA urban appliance program a number of years ago (when he was a mexican) and look at the CFS fleet - aerials, pumpers, specialist hose lays, rescue tenders etc.
CFS has progressed a long way in the last 10 - 15 years! It was only 20 years ago that the first 24 style of vehicle came off the line and into use in SA, so we are moving forward - yes there are a few blockages - Arthur Tindal and Arthur Tindal, however there is slowly a move.
The major issue - is what do brigades need - honestly, to cover their patch, their legislative requirements, the area that is their primary response zone!!!!
When you look at that there are a good number of pumpers needed, but then also some of those that are crying we need a pumper would deserve little more than a 24 and that is all they should get, but CFS continues to oil the squeaky wheel at the frustration of the rest of us - so collectively we are our worst enemies :-D
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but CFS continues to oil the squeaky wheel at the frustration of the rest of us - so collectively we are our worst enemies :-D
That seems to be the major problem... If new appliances were being blocked by the government, or local councils, everyone would be up in arms and there would be new pumpers (probably Scanias) everywhere... But, because the sticking point is in the CFS itself, theres nothing much we can do, except complain to each other :(
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but CFS continues to oil the squeaky wheel at the frustration of the rest of us - so collectively we are our worst enemies :-D
That seems to be the major problem... If new appliances were being blocked by the government, or local councils, everyone would be up in arms and there would be new pumpers (probably Scanias) everywhere... But, because the sticking point is in the CFS itself, theres nothing much we can do, except complain to each other :(
Doesnt being your own worst enemy eventually lead to self destruction?? :?
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Doesn't being your own worst enemy eventually lead to self destruction?? :?
apparently so, but the CFS has managed for all these years.... :wink: :lol:
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Are you aware to date of any photos from the House Fire ?
as a person that was on-scene, even tho' our truck was turned out 10mins into the call (altho we were available from the start, fulltruck having just cleared a call 4 mins away... wheres the common sense??? LOL) i'd have to say, no... unless someone was being very sneaky, there were no pics, taken... definitely not during the "action period" neway... mabye some mopping up?
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No worries..
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Alex is right. we have got some amusing pics from after the event, like the 6 drums of "BUDRITE" fertiliser, but nothing of the action.
i guess that is what comes of only having a crew of 6 on board, no-one has the time to take piccies until afterwards. :|
Ah well, next time.
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Steve g, i was wondering if you can tell me the overall length of the type 2 from the very front of the bullbar and how much shorter it would be without the bullbar on??
Cheers.
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how did the flaked 38s go with that housefire a few weeks ago?
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TillerMan- sorry, dont have the measurements, but i can try and track them down when i am next at the stystion for you.
OMG-
the flaked hose is Brilliant.
I was the one who got the 38 off the truck at that job, and i was able to grab the branch and run with it almost like a HP line.
the 64 for the hydrant is the same. with a little bot of practise and some forethought it is excellent.
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Good To Hear That The Flaked Hoses Worked A Treat, What Would You Perfer Now That You Have Used Both?
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I think that both could be used effectively in different situations, and at some jobs you would prefer one over the other, but visa versa at other jobs... Don't think you could go without either/or... Both would compliment the truck well with their own benefits....
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A lot of Americans are putting booster reels back on their trucks for all the run of the mill jobs like bin fires and car fires, lot easier than running hose out, and they still mainly use canvas.
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Good To Hear That The Flaked Hoses Worked A Treat, What Would You Perfer Now That You Have Used Both?
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well, a few months have passed. Everybody has had time to get used to the appliance.
i would say, as far as practicialti goes, it is an allround excellent truck.
there's been a few bugs that we have come across, but nothing that has been cause for concern, or taken more than a bit of effort to resolve.
I believe that there is a few more brigades with these appliances now. does anybody else here have one, and, if so, how are you finding it??
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Does the eden appliance have fluro lights running down each side??? I saw this on Barkers type 2 and though it was a great idea!!
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Does the eden appliance have fluro lights running down each side??? I saw this on Barkers type 2 and though it was a great idea!!
HAHAHAAHA!!! Do they flash in time with the radio? :P
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yep.
theres an unbroken line of fluro lights down the sides, and a single light across the back.each side is controlled independently, so you can be working on the kerb side, and switch off the road side if you wanted.
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yep.
theres an unbroken line of fluro lights down the sides, and a single light across the back.each side is controlled independently, so you can be working on the kerb side, and switch off the road side if you wanted.
Sweeeet.... All we'll need soon is a disco ball just under the light tower and we won't need anymore refinement to the truck :wink: :lol:
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Hi There,
We have a type two. It is an excellent truck at this stage. It has some limits but they are beyond our reach at the moment. Some of the wiring can be a problem, we have had trouble with one of the locker sensors. When driving along the whole cab lights up like christmas time as the sensor thinks the locke is open.
It has a good amount of room to fit everything, rescue takes up basically all the drivers side, hoses BA and other confined space on the other.
Overall it is an excellent appliance.
Sam
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Sam you have had that pumper for sometime now have you not had that problem fixed with the door??? If not why not and did ya let skilled know so that they can fix it????
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Hi Again,
The problem has only been occuring in the last two weeks... It is very intermittent as well.
So this is why we have not fixed it as of yet.
Sam
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Type 2's look the goods. They look like a traditional shape fire truck.
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That would be because they are and they are the same type as what NSWFB and some CFA urban brigades have real pumper's at last.....