SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Master of Disaster on August 16, 2008, 09:19:56 PM
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What is the minimum skill level CFS Fire Fighters need to respond with the MFS?
e.g. We at ...... need to have BA, and or RCR, HAZMAT
Cheers Chris
PS, I don't want to post the name of the station just incase I upset someone. :roll:
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Depends on the brigade and the incident. When I was in an urban interface brigade and we reponded with MFS we made sure we had at least 2 BA operators if not 4. If it was an MVA we tried to have a minimum of 2 rcr operators.
But we werent a Hazmat brigade so that wasn`t important. But like I said if you are not a hazmat/rcr brigade you need a minimum crew of 4 including 2xBA operators. For a start, even if you are going to a grass fire you may get diverted.
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4 BA all in PBI gold, for everything other than RCR, this is a new thing for us and has come in over the last month
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We try for at least 2 in each discipline. BA/RCR/Hazmat
The absolute minimum should be 2xBA I would imagine.
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Yeah we were told from the powers to be that its 2 BA minimum.
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well thats just common sense isnt it? If you are responding to a structure fire with the mfs or anywhere you are going to want to respond with a minimum of 2 BA ops.
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well thats just common sense isnt it? If you are responding to a structure fire with the mfs or anywhere you are going to want to respond with a minimum of 2 BA ops.
Don't tell me that you're still naive enough to think that majority of people in the SACFS actually use common sense?
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Not to mention everyone has a different definition of common sense...:)
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
Sorry, but actually it does matter whos area it is. If the brigade is responding into an MFS area, the minimum is 2 BA operators. no question about it, if you cant get 2 ba operators the EMA agreement says DEFAULT! Same goes for road crash i believe (but not 100% sure).
Also put it this way, how would you feel in this FICTIONAL scenario:
You are OIC on first arriving CFS truck at a house fire confined to 1 bedroom.
You have 1 BA team on your truck, and you know that the next CFS appliance is 2 minutes down the road with 2 BA operators on board. And an mfs appliance is on its way to your station for COQ
Whilst your first BA crew is making entry, the job begins to escalate, you call for a second alarm.
The second CFS appliance shows up and their BA team also begins an aggressive interior attack.
2 minutes later the COQ MFS truck(which you assume have a minimum of 2 ba operators, as thats what your EMA agreement says) rock up. <the issue is between them they have exactly ZERO Ba operators.>
2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.
Now what do you do? you have 2 BA teams attempting an aggressive interior attack, with no rescue personnel in case the poop hits the fan inside.
HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF THIS HAPPENED TO YOU!?!
THIS IS THE POTENTIAL SITUATION THAT YOU ARE SETTING UP YOUR NEIGHBORING MFS CREWS UP FOR BY NOT FOLLOWING EMA RESPONSE PLANS!
The MFS would not do this to us, so why would we do it to them?
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Pixie, some blokes might not like SHOUTING LETTERS , but I'm not one...YA HEAR ME! :-D
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I always thought in the past it was a minimum crew of 4 with Level 3 and BA (as level 3 is no longer relevent, ide presume that isnt applicable) so making it 4 BA operators, the same as an MFS crew. Although if you are responding on an appliance with 2 BA sets waiting for 4BA may be wasting time. As for RCR ide say it would be the same if it was MFS or CFS area, as per the RCR directory, minimum 3 RCR operators (but crew of 4).
24p
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Any Requirement to do CFB as well? a good 95%+ of MFS firefighters now have CFB training.. and ya might get a few angry faces if ya start ventilating (cracking windows/opening doors/etc) the building while they are offensively fighting a involved fire.
my opinion > only having BA...is "half way there" to fulfilling EMA.
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...the same as an MFS crew.
If we do that, then do you want all 4 on the pump trained in BA, RCR and Hazmat?
Any Requirement to do CFB as well? a good 95%+ of MFS firefighters now have CFB training.. and ya might get a few angry faces if ya start ventilating (cracking windows/opening doors/etc) the building while they are offensively fighting a involved fire.
my opinion > only having BA...is "half way there" to fulfilling EMA.
I'd be giving people angry faces if they *didn't* start ventilating while there was an offensive attack going on...
CFS CFBT - A course missing its other half and bringing easily misunderstood and misused techniques to your door!
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I'd be giving people angry faces if they *didn't* start ventilating while there was an offensive attack going on...
Id really want to control how much air is feeding the fire to create the hotter fire gases tho... And id hate to have external attackers putting a straight jet in creating a shitload of unwanted steam. If ya cant use that technique...its either going to be a Wet Mess by external attack...or A Car Park. You Could Anti-Ventilate by closing up as much Air Intake into the fire, but these days thats a bitch to do with ducting in most houses.
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CFBT
Without dragging this thread further off topic.
*smacks head into wall*
We have a whole CFB Sub-Forum ;)
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Maybe we could have a new topic "Tips on making car parks" :-D
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Maybe we could have a new topic "Tips on making car parks" :-D
"You two, get a line of 38, you, grab a broom, driver call comms and request a bulldozer"
"Sorry ma'am, aint nothing we can do for your house"
"But its only smoke from a light fitting?"
"Sorry ma'am, don't tell us how to fight fires"
*rumble rumble crunch crunch*
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.
Am i missing something? All MFS firefighters are BA trained.
As i said it doesnt matter where the incident is....you should be rolling to a structure with less than 2 BA ops. simple!
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.
Am i missing something? All MFS firefighters are BA trained.
As i said it doesnt matter where the incident is....you should be rolling to a structure with less than 2 BA ops. simple!
There is a few retained MFS station where they are not all BA operators nor all trained as hazmat operators or RCR trained
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.
Am i missing something? All MFS firefighters are BA trained.
As i said it doesnt matter where the incident is....you should be rolling to a structure with less than 2 BA ops. simple!
Pix was trying to show the way things would be if it happened to be the other way around. Calling for resources and then having them arrive and go "oh no, we're not trained" We expect SAMFS to bring BA ops to the party, in the same way that if they have a structural fire going, they expect us to respond with BA operators, not just trucks and BFF1 crew.
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There is a few retained MFS station where they are not all BA operators nor all trained as hazmat operators or RCR trained
Are you sure, doesn't make much sense, due to the limited numbers of staff they are allowed to recruit I thought this would be part of the minimum skills to keep your spot.
I know the station support staff aren't, but they don't fight fires either.
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MFS retained stations should not be sending appliances on the road with less than 2xBA operators an each appliance. New recruits are required to do BA as soon as practical when starting.
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.
Am i missing something? All MFS firefighters are BA trained.
As i said it doesnt matter where the incident is....you should be rolling to a structure with less than 2 BA ops. simple!
Pix was trying to show the way things would be if it happened to be the other way around. Calling for resources and then having them arrive and go "oh no, we're not trained" We expect SAMFS to bring BA ops to the party, in the same way that if they have a structural fire going, they expect us to respond with BA operators, not just trucks and BFF1 crew.
Ok thanks for clarifying.
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Everyone should go and have a read of SOP 7.1 Dual Response with MFS, in conjunction with Operational Management Guidlines Section 48 Receiving and Responding to Incident Calls.
So response doesnt mean Roll with 3, go in the Group Car or otherwise.Response is minimum of 4 personnel for a 24 appliance.
The SOP states 4 BA operators, but there has been a compromise to 2 BA at minimum through some groups.
If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT
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If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....i would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist? It may make a difference.
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There is a few retained MFS station where they are not all BA operators nor all trained as hazmat operators or RCR trained
Are you sure, doesn't make much sense, due to the limited numbers of staff they are allowed to recruit I thought this would be part of the minimum skills to keep your spot.
I know the station support staff aren't, but they don't fight fires either.
Yeah I have worked with a station that as had members in there for over 3 years and they still have not done BA or RCR
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zippy
this is about responding into MFS area. But in your turf what you suggest is a better idea.
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I am actually thinking about the possiblity that if you have 4 crew...1 BA operator...And the next MFS or CFS backup is 5-10mins behind you. That it may do good just sending that crew forward to that job, to do what ever they can do. Time Critical Incidents Especially.
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There is a few retained MFS station where they are not all BA operators nor all trained as hazmat operators or RCR trained
Are you sure, doesn't make much sense, due to the limited numbers of staff they are allowed to recruit I thought this would be part of the minimum skills to keep your spot.
I know the station support staff aren't, but they don't fight fires either.
Yeah I have worked with a station that as had members in there for over 3 years and they still have not done BA or RCR
Fair enough, I find it very hard to believe that you would still be a member of the MFS after 3 years and not doing BA, the only people I know that aren't are operational support staff, but they don't respond to jobs.
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I am actually thinking about the possiblity that if you have 4 crew...1 BA operator...And the next MFS or CFS backup is 5-10mins behind you. That it may do good just sending that crew forward to that job, to do what ever they can do. Time Critical Incidents Especially.
Again,we are talking MFS area only, they don't include you as part of the response, your a bonus, if you don't respond it doesn't actually mean a great deal, as they are still sending their minimum response if you turn out or not. You will always notice that most times for a 1st alarm domestic you will have 2 MFS pumps and 1 CFS. Same with an RCR, eg : if the crash is in MFS area that the green book says should be Glynde and Athelstone, 204 or 329 will always be added as CFS don't count, they are to unreliable.
So therefor if you respond, all well and good, but do it as they ask, if you don't ring them and default, but it won't matter unless they are extremely short of trucks, but in that case you will most likely be sent COQ anyway.
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If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....i would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist? It may make a difference.
The thing is, at a structure fire I may need 2-3 more BA crews - Not more bodies to stand around and 'assist'. Having more people, that I can't use, is a pain in the neck and is about as far from 'assisting' as possible.
I'd rather have 8-10 trained people at a job than 50 untrained people 'assisting' and getting their weekly jollies by seeing flames.
At the end of the day, if you can't bring trained crew to a job and the trained crew are needed, don't bother turning out, you're only cluttering up the fireground - especially in urban areas.
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how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
Sorry, but actually it does matter whos area it is. If the brigade is responding into an MFS area, the minimum is 2 BA operators. no question about it, if you cant get 2 ba operators the EMA agreement says DEFAULT! Same goes for road crash i believe (but not 100% sure).
Also put it this way, how would you feel in this FICTIONAL scenario:
You are OIC on first arriving CFS truck at a house fire confined to 1 bedroom.
You have 1 BA team on your truck, and you know that the next CFS appliance is 2 minutes down the road with 2 BA operators on board. And an mfs appliance is on its way to your station for COQ
Whilst your first BA crew is making entry, the job begins to escalate, you call for a second alarm.
The second CFS appliance shows up and their BA team also begins an aggressive interior attack.
2 minutes later the COQ MFS truck(which you assume have a minimum of 2 ba operators, as thats what your EMA agreement says) rock up. <the issue is between them they have exactly ZERO Ba operators.>
2 Minutes after that, another MFS appliance shows up, same situation, zero BA operators.
Now what do you do? you have 2 BA teams attempting an aggressive interior attack, with no rescue personnel in case the poop hits the fan inside.
Very nice rant mate.
As far as i am aware, from "Master of Disaster's" first post, we are talking about a response to an incident, not a COQ. Or have you lost me? I have never heard anything about a CFS pump going to a grassie in MFS area requiring BA operators, although im sure theyd be nice.
But judging by your example anyway, im presuming your talking about COQs.
HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF THIS HAPPENED TO YOU!?!
THIS IS THE POTENTIAL SITUATION THAT YOU ARE SETTING UP YOUR NEIGHBORING MFS CREWS UP FOR BY NOT FOLLOWING EMA RESPONSE PLANS!
The MFS would not do this to us, so why would we do it to them?
HAH, jog on..
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My rant is completely hypothetical, although, if you swap the word MFS for CFS and vice versa, it become quite realistic.
The point i am trying to make is that we would all crack the shits big time if an MFS truck rocked up to a going job in our area with a crew that had the gear but were not trained to use it. Yet members of our service seem to think it is just dandy for us to do it to them.
I VOTE "NO BA, NO RIDE THE TRUCK." Don't meet the fitness requirements? should you really be on the fire ground?
It may seem to many like a heavy handed approach, but if all members of your crew are up to date in all of their training, it should make the CFS a much safer and more professional service.
Jut my opinion!
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If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....i would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist? It may make a difference.
If your responding with MFS, into MFS area and you default, don't respond another brigade. - Advise Ad/Fire you are defaulting, and leave it up to them.
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If you cant meet the criteria DEFAULT....I would actually say: respond another brigade, rather than Default...Still roll with what you have...what ever crew you have can assist? It may make a difference.
If your responding with MFS, into MFS area and you default, don't respond another brigade. - Advise Ad/Fire you are defaulting, and leave it up to them.
Correct, MFS area you cant respond another CFS brigade into it, they will send their own resources. :wink:
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but it would be silly to respond St Marys to Christies Beach, when Happy Valley is available...to respond with Morphett Vale and Seaford.
Thinking 1st Alarm, Multiple calls, sorta job here.
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Too bad.. Its up to MFS..
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but it would be silly to respond St Marys to Christies Beach, when Happy Valley is available...to respond with Morphett Vale and Seaford.
Thinking 1st Alarm, Multiple calls, sorta job here.
Hahahaha Zippy...they did it a few years ago $1 million dollar school fire, and they sent everything from HQ.....as they were on the road already :-P
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My rant is completely hypothetical, although, if you swap the word MFS for CFS and vice versa, it become quite realistic.
The point i am trying to make is that we would all crack the filtered big time if an MFS truck rocked up to a going job in our area with a crew that had the gear but were not trained to use it. Yet members of our service seem to think it is just dandy for us to do it to them.
I VOTE "NO BA, NO RIDE THE TRUCK." Don't meet the fitness requirements? should you really be on the fire ground?
It may seem to many like a heavy handed approach, but if all members of your crew are up to date in all of their training, it should make the CFS a much safer and more professional service.
Jut my opinion!
Pix, not sure why you quoted my original post then.... if you had read it.
how about we just respond with the appropriate rescue or BA crew dependant on the incident type..... surely we all know the CFS SOPs for minimum crewing, doesnt matter whos area it is
appropriate crew for an incident.... Min 2 BA operators for structure/VF/rubbish, or 3 RCR Operators [VA], etc etc... [honestly, i didnt think i had to spell it out...]
doesnt matter whos area it is in..... WE SHOULD BE RESPONDING WITH THE APPROPRIATE CREW REGARDLESS OF WHO'S GAZZETTED AREA IT IS [yep i can shout too]
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So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).
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So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).
YES :wink:
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So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).
YES :wink:
Is this in writing anywhere? Id be keen to have a read.
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How about: 2 BA operators on a 2WD or 4WD pumper at any call? Wouldnt ya hate to be 15mins from the station at a animal rescue, get a page for a Commercial fire...and all ya got is non-BA crew. And to add to that, only a single driver...already driving that appliance.
The Last resort would have to be BA operators and Private cars.
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So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).
YES :wink:
Is this in writing anywhere? Id be keen to have a read.
COSO's SOP 7.1
Where CFS appliances are responding into SAMFS area, the crew shall consist a minimum of four firefighters, one of whom must be officer in Charge.This crew is to have breathing apparatus accreditation and other relevant competencies. The minimum appliance is a Type 24.
While it does'nt relate to specific incident types state the CFS crew shall be BA operators.
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Intriguing, never noticed that before.....
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So to get back to the original topic, does anyone have minimum requirements for responding into MFS area regardless of the call?
(For example, do you always have 2 BA operators even if you're going to an MVA?).
We always do, if we don't have a minimum of 2 BA then we ring Adelaide Fire and advise them, the couple of times it's been an issue they have said just go anyway.
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It's a little ambiguous as to how many crew are required to be qualified. If you take it as it sounds, then all 4 crew need to be BA, Rescue and Hazmat (If their brigade does both).
Interesting.
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I know some groups have negotiated having minimum of 2 BA due to CFS persisting on putting a cap on BA operators, often they have people willing to train in BA but can't get on a course.
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I know some groups have negotiated having minimum of 2 BA due to CFS persisting on putting a cap on BA operators, often they have people willing to train in BA but can't get on a course.
"negotiated"
I'm not sure if a local negotiation can override the SOP's COSO's?
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"negotiated"
I'm not sure if a local negotiation can override the SOP's COSO's?
It would be fine if CFS didn't use the SFEC 'minimum' as the maximum and stop training people when the minimum is reached.
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Yeah its a real pain, region said to my brigade that we won't be putting anyone else from your brigade through as you have reched your minimum and there are others in your group that have less operators than BA sets. Yes I appreciate that, but those said brigades haven't had a BA job in a number of years and don't actually have anyone interested in doing the course yet we have people champing at the bit, which would alleviate the must have 4 BA issue and the fact that we attend a number of BA incidents a year.
Its a vicious circle isn't it, gotta have this but can't have that. What can we do, "Adelaide Fire such and such pumper mobile with 2 BA as we can't get any more people on courses over"
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hahahaha good stuff Pumprescue.
Yeah, damm right the Minimum is the Real Maximum.
At least more current BA operators can do CFB now, since SFEC's for that were more than quadrupled.
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At least more current BA operators can do CFB now, since SFEC's for that were more than quadrupled.
I'm still at a loss as to why CFB is given a number under SFEC. Unless the numbers for BA and CFB are the same, this is rediculous.
Its not a specialist skill akin to CABA/RCR/HAZMAT, and it should be available to everyone who completes CABA. Simple as that. No use having 16BA positions and 10 CFBT.
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well it went from 2 to 16.