SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SAAS => Topic started by: jaff on April 27, 2008, 01:11:11 AM
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You often see on the paging network, response for ambo,s with the warning possible violence on scene,is this a a common occurence at the scene ?
What safety measures do you have in place ?
Your job would be stressfull enough as it is, without this distraction!!
Cheers Jaff
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This is a warning (one of a few Hazard warnings) which once the criteria is met, the warning is attached.. - It is a warning to the crew responding that what ever they are going to, is either a result of violence, or could have an offender still on scene (or both).. It will result in Police also being notified, and depending on the situation, could result in the crew waiting for SAPOL to arrive before they enter the scene.
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Violence at a scene as stated before can involve a variety of things. Comms try and give us as much warning as possible taking into consideration what the caller has stated about the case.
Often if crews have attended the same house address and have found a hazard it is logged in the database and stored until another call comes from the same house. Often if violence or an offender is involved we will wait for SAPOL to arrive and enter with them or we may R/V with them at a nearby location to plan how we will approach the house.
As you mentioned, these type of hazards are an unwanted distraction but with society these days it will just get worse i believe.
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safety measures?
.......being street smart. and thats about it.
..having said that....Street Smart is not something that's learned overnight or in some course.......so it really depends on the individual - and how comfortable they are dealing with tools that might be aggressive. end of the day - if you're not comfortable....don't go in.
No-one will be bagged/caned or disciplined for looking after number one (- even tho the media might disagree - isn't that what we're paid for...to put our lives on the line??! :evil:)
more often than not the abuse we get is just verbal....but since wearing blue i've noted an increase in times where we've been mistaken for coppers.....but usually only by the PFO's!
we do have Maglites - but it looks a tad strange (not to mention pre-emptive) carrying one in the middle of the day!
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04:09:43 28-04-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC006 28/04/08 04:08,RESPOND To,GUMERACHA CFS,GUMERACHA MAP 0 0 0 TG098,ASSIT HOSPITAL STAFF URGENTLY WITH VIOLE,NT PATIENT,GUMA00
04:12:03 28-04-08 MFS: RE INC 006 PROCEDE WITH CAUTION, DETAILS AS PER ALERTS CALL. SAPOL AWARE NO ETA
hmmm, whats everyones thoughts? since we dont know the details might leave out presumptions.
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Are Gumeracha a new CFS Riot squad?
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Are Gumeracha a new CFS Riot squad?
Hmmm. Not really a fire service job. Paid or volunteer, unless there was a threat to set fire to the building.
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Assuming they were called to help subdue the patient....what a load of crock!
What would happen if one of them was hurt?
But as most things there is probaly a whole different side to the pager message.....well we can only hope!
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I agree with both of the above. - But as you said Cameron, I guess we will have to wait till we hear the full story.
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If your not sure how to handle the case or your not trained...i would wait for SAPOL to arrive. Services need to perform to their scope of practice and not step outside that. You dont see SAPOL fighting fires, you dont see CFS doing the job of SAAS....each service should stick to what they are trained/permitted to do.
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While not knowing anything about the Gumeracha job, but knowing the area, and the police resources, I'd suggest that CFS were called because there was either one solo officer working, and needed assistance, OR there were no local police on, and realistically, it is around a half hour response from the surrounding areas.....in the meantime, should the nursing staff just wait, with their safety perhaps at major risk, for the half an hour, before the police arrive?
Adelaide medic, while I understand where your comment about services not doing the work of other services, is coming from, in practice it could can't work. If each service ONLY did their core business, it would be to the detriment of the public we serve.
While not wishing to make comment on the specifics of this job at Gumeracha, I suspect there may be more to this job than we know
Pip
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Security at the Hospital then? More police in those areas?.. Not something Volunteer firefighters should be attendind. (In my opinion)..
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I personally would refuse to ride an appliance to a call that came through with only those details.
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on a lighter note, police might have there revolvers and capsicum spray, but we do have 64mm dont we?...and foam :wink:
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I personally would refuse to ride an appliance to a call that came through with only those details.
What if you had an ALERTS call preceding it - like they clearly did?
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I personally would refuse to ride an appliance to a call that came through with only those details.
I personally would not be surprised if a unit/brigade would refuse to even respond. CFS dont have the training to deal with aggressive offenders, they dont have the experience nor the equipment. Questions would definitaley be asked if anything did happen to the crew.
Reading the posts on this forum so far the consensus would definiately be that CFS should not be asked to respond to these types of incidents. What next...snake catching?
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As i dont know what the alerts call was about I cant comment on it. My post is based purely on the pager message.
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As i dont know what the alerts call was about I cant comment on it. My post is based purely on the pager message.
Fair enough.
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ive been to baxter detention centre for crowd control in C.F.S capacity. i know thats different but its another angle. as long as the person needing to be controlled wasnt armed why not go?? just my thoughts
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If you are not trained in crowd control or dealing with violent persons (like SAPOL are) & you are injured CFS is in breach of the OHS&W Act Section 19 -simple!
If you use excessive force & the person is injured you can be charged with assault - simple!
And you can be sued. Read ths Fire and emergency services Act, this type of activity does not come under your area of responsibility.
Unless of course it involves fire or hazardous materials, you are leaving yourself wide open to all soughts of problems.
As a manager of an Emergency service unit, if we got that page I would want the state duty officers authorisation in writing by fax before a vehicle left the shed - sorry hospital people but having spent time in the military & being taught all of the rules surrounding this type of activity & being a professional OHS specialist & finally seeing how public servants can dodge any culpability,I would not want my people or my own arse being kicked when it all goes pearshaped!
cheers
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i guess everyone has their own feelings but like some one else said we don know the circumstances...but i reckon if it happen in our town and our police officer was not in town id be goin 4 sure
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Good on you mate, maybe I'm getting too old & cynical:-D
just be very careful!
cheers
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some one gotta be old n clynical if they weren we wuld all be out there gung ho doin all sorts..guess it raises the question whatever happen to gettint here doin job n goin home..all gettin to political and way to professional for volunteers.
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yep you are right and it is sad that the world we live in has turned this way!
But that is the way its is - don't worry I have thought the same thing. Anyway take it easy!
cheers
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What next...snake catching?
you lot already squirt.....er.....retrieve cats out of trees don't you?!!??
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Security at the Hospital then? More police in those areas?.. Not something Volunteer firefighters should be attendind. (In my opinion)..
Hospital security? At Gumeracha hospital?
Have you ever been there? It is a quiet, low to medium care hospital. Generally no Doctor there after hours, unless called. No "Emergency" Department as such....although the local doctor can be called, and may attend, if required....
Gumeracha Police - meant to be a two person station - but for a number of reasons, only one currently there. I can't see another one being placed there, due to large shortages within the LSA (eg currently 29 patrol vacancies in the LSA)
While most agree that CFS shouldn't be attending this type of call, we are going solely on what is listed on the pager message...without knowing the actual circumstances.
Would you know that the person being aggressive calms down the moment they see a CFS uniform? Would you know that the nurse at the hospital, facing the aggressive patient, happens to be the wife of a CFS member, and called hubby to get some help, so hubby called the rest of the brigade for backup?
While it is simple to say "Don't go" how would you feel if it was your relative being threatened, and we all decided not to go?
And as for use excessive force - Chook, I'd suggest you check out the changes to self defence laws, and use of force. Restraining a person who has been "going off" - perhaps in the sort of circumstances we are discussing, is not excessive force - even if all 6 of the crew were hanging on to the one individual, and keeping him/ her pinned to the floor.
And as for snake catching - there has already been at least one brigade who was regularly called to assist in removing snakes from houses in their township (especially since this town was experiencing a large increase in snake numbers at the time)
Pip
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I personally would refuse to ride an appliance to a call that came through with only those details.
I personally would not be surprised if a unit/brigade would refuse to even respond. CFS dont have the training to deal with aggressive offenders, they dont have the experience nor the equipment. Questions would definitaley be asked if anything did happen to the crew.
Reading the posts on this forum so far the consensus would definiately be that CFS should not be asked to respond to these types of incidents. What next...snake catching?
Adelaide medic in reference to your comment about not having the equipment to deal with aggressive offenders,perhaps you havent been introduced to an axe :-D just kiddin! I reckon im more qualified than most to calm down angry ,aggresive murderous people, get to practice on the wife most weekends :evil:
Cheers Jaff
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Just go in swinging hooligan tools, jemmy bars n roof hooks and i reckon you would be fine. :-D
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ive been to baxter detention centre for crowd control in C.F.S capacity. i know thats different but its another angle. as long as the person needing to be controlled wasnt armed why not go?? just my thoughts
Were you responded with CFS for the strict duty of crowd control, or were you responded for a fire related standby but somehow ended up in some form of crowd control role?
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i agree wit everythin pip said...and the plan at baxter witht the protesters was to use charged hose lines to hold them bak under instructions from sapol...
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i agree wit everythin pip said...and the plan at baxter witht the protesters was to use charged hose lines to hold them bak under instructions from sapol...
that's a great PR exercise.....
The feds asked SAMFS to do it - and they flatly refused! I'm surprised CFS agreed to such a concept which could only serve to destroy community relations...
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Yep great PR thats why the ADF is not normally used in that way - checkout the history of Aid to Civil powers. Ok Pip some recent amendments have fixed the law side (maybe!) but would the service stand by its members if they were injured? As I said "Are they trained?" Answer is NO. What would the public perception be if it did all go pearshaped "Upset mentally ill person tackled by 6 fire fighters & is killed blah blah". I stand by what I said"Written direction/permission from the state duty officer". And our section of the act states quite clearly what we are not to be used for!
If the security of the hospital staff is a problem then the health department needs to sought that out - after all they have duty of care!
Participating in activities that we are not trained in and are not covered by our Act opens a can of worms. If we are going down this path then training must be provided & the correct protective equipment issued - that is the duty of care owed to us.
Anyway I think I have made my views very clear & I have said enough.
cheers
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I dont see a problem with the call for help from the hospital,how many times have CFS been called to assit SAAS only to arrive and find out SAAS are still sometime away... Also there could be members of the brigade who have done some training with the hospital staff and are well aware of the risk's,there are a number of brigade's that have a very close working reltaionship with their local SAAS/Police/Hospital and the council. As pip said there may have only been a solo officer in the area....People forget that outside of the CITY cfs is the next help around for the community and in many cases we have done te training to help .....
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6 firies with big nasty halligans and axes?
I'll be going for sure. Everyone needs some stress relief sometimes.
As long as you just yell "Comply" and "Stop Resisting" whilst beating the poor chap, you'll be fine. If all else fails, the good old "Stop hitting yourself!" is a good one too.
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Gee numbers and I thought that you were the tree huggin,non violent,pacisfist type :-D
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i agree wit everythin pip said...and the plan at baxter witht the protesters was to use charged hose lines to hold them bak under instructions from sapol...
Aren't we meant to protect life and property regardless of who and what it is? We are not an arm of the state for civil disturbance suppression.
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i agree wit everythin pip said...and the plan at baxter witht the protesters was to use charged hose lines to hold them bak under instructions from sapol...
Aren't we meant to protect life and property regardless of who and what it is? We are not an arm of the state for civil disturbance suppression.
Agreed!
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04:09:43 28-04-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC006 28/04/08 04:08,RESPOND To,GUMERACHA CFS,GUMERACHA MAP 0 0 0 TG098,ASSIT HOSPITAL STAFF URGENTLY WITH VIOLE,NT PATIENT,GUMA00
04:12:03 28-04-08 MFS: RE INC 006 PROCEDE WITH CAUTION, DETAILS AS PER ALERTS CALL. SAPOL AWARE NO ETA
hmmm, whats everyones thoughts? since we dont know the details might leave out presumptions.
Initial thought: gross misuse of resources. CFS have no training for this type of thing. Police should have been responded, NOT CFS.
Subsequent thought: "PROCEDE" is misspelt.
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Tonto, have you read this thread? read Pipsters post above.
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Tonto, have you read this thread? read Pipsters post above.
1. Yes.
2. I did.
My thoughts were (and still are) my own.
Yours may differ. That's OK, you're allowed (first rule of Kibology).