SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: bajdas on July 27, 2008, 11:07:20 PM
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Several months ago I joined a discussion regards the cost of volunteering.
The conversation between a few people was stating that volunteering to emergency services involves a cost to the volunteer, but the volunteer has a choice of how much they pay. For example, not everyone can afford the latest helmet light or prussic cordage. But everyone pays for their own car or petrol.
The conversation went specifically to the potential of recruiting day-time responders from the Centrelink recipients & partners of single income households. The issue was that the volunteer would need to have car transport to attend callouts & training. Not all people can afford to own a reliable car.
My wife volunteers to do home visiting for a government agency. She receives $0.64 per kilometre when using her own car to visit clients (from home to client & return). As an emergency service volunteer, we receive reimbursement for travel to some training courses in the same manner.
A person then stated that they had responded to 3 seperate incidents during a weekend. Each incident involved travel of approximately 6 kilometres one way. So that person paid for 36 kms of travel in their car.
Sorry for the long text, but when petrol reaches $2.00 plus per litre, can you personally afford to respond to incidents or the same amount of training courses ? Will this affect country regions more because of the longer distances to travel ?
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At the moment petrol is coming down but in some parts of the state its still very high Sure you may get$0.64 cents per KM but its the other factors that you have to take into account.wear and tare on your car,damage that may be done to your car while on the way to the station or while your car is parked at the station.and then what happens if you get to the station and the appliances has left but only has a crew of 3 and they want more help?? You would take your car out with more members...I can hear people saying take command car but not all groups have command cars close to each brigade or the group duty officer has that car...There are also brigade's that are not part of a group due to their isolation...
I guess I am very lucky that I can use my work car for call outs but sooner or later I will be asked to stop taking it with the cost of petrol,So what can we do???
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Not sure about taking your own car Bill
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SAFECOM will need to look at something in the future. It doesn't affect me as I live maybe 100 metres from the station, but in the country its going to have to hurt. Then again for the 300 calls we do I would probably use the same fuel as 10 calls in a rural station, even if there was some form of tax write off, eg like business kilometres, I would be happy with that.
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Out here, unleaded is the best part of $1.90/L. Premium unleaded hovers between $1.98 and $2.02/L and diesel has been around $2.10+/L for some time now.
Responding to stations is one thing, but for those who respond over great distances, the cost is starting to soar!.. The weekly $$$ often spent on fuel (especially out here) is phenomenal!
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Not sure about taking your own car Bill
My old man and i respond in our private vehicle all the time as he is a D.G.O. and have GRN, VHF and so in in private vehicle. All made a bit easier now with new logistics which we respond in now if we can.
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Well i sort of use my parents fuel and sometimes (much to frequently :-D) i contribute.
I had never really considered this to be a problem as since i see CFS as something I commit to ie I keep Monday nights free for training, I might have to one day budget for this in my fuel but in my situation i cant see this happening.
I think the bigger cost is going to be campaign fires eg in my 6 days on KI I think I gave up about $350 pay. Yes it was my choice and i can afford do as I am still at home but there are defiantly other casual workers out there who can't.
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My old man and i respond in our private vehicle all the time as he is a D.G.O. and have GRN, VHF and so in in private vehicle. All made a bit easier now with new logistics which we respond in now if we can.
he could use the logistics Navara as 'Car 2', it would look better as him as DGO to respond in that 100% of the time rather than a private car...
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Some time ago there was a study conducted and research showed that it costs $634 for each volunteer per annum to respond to calls.
In answer to the question:Yes I only live 30 seconds from the station
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I live about 4kms from my station so 8km round trip. Training is fortnightly and we attended 60 call outs for the year.
That is 688km (doesnt count the few times i went out to the station to do some training organisation etc), this is probaly tank and a half of petrol. Fuel at $2 a litre would cost me $140 to fill my tank so for the entire year it would cost me $210 in fuel in round figures.
We could all say that we want to be reimbursed but 1) we are not the only ones in the boat. 2) where is the money coming from? 3) If the teachers cant get the money (and they teach our kids) how are we the unpaid meant to hold the government to ransom over a realistically small amount of money?
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At the moment petrol is coming down but in some parts of the state its still very high Sure you may get$0.64 cents per KM but its the other factors that you have to take into account.wear and tare on your car,damage that may be done to your car while on the way to the station or while your car is parked at the station.and then what happens if you get to the station and the appliances has left but only has a crew of 3 and they want more help?? You would take your car out with more members...I can hear people saying take command car but not all groups have command cars close to each brigade or the group duty officer has that car...There are also brigade's that are not part of a group due to their isolation...
or you could take a second truck... (if you have one).
Some time ago there was a study conducted and research showed that it costs $634 for each volunteer per annum to respond to calls.
How on earth can they work that out? There is no way it would cost the same for volunteers in a 30 call-a-year brigade as it does a 300 call-a-year one. Let alone the differences in distance, type of car, responsibilities and commitment...
I would agree with that figure though. I'd be paying at least that.
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My old man and i respond in our private vehicle all the time as he is a D.G.O. and have GRN, VHF and so in in private vehicle. All made a bit easier now with new logistics which we respond in now if we can.
he could use the logistics Navara as 'Car 2', it would look better as him as DGO to respond in that 100% of the time rather than a private car...
As We are farmers 80% of incidents it is closer to go to incident than to go to station and get vehicles..it doesnt worry us to much i was just shedding another angle on the situation
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Christ, we don't get wages, the least that the Government could do is pay our costs for CFS related travel. To and from the station should certainly be compensated for, for me, attending about the average number of calls, plus training brings the drive out to about 1776km a year. This doesnt take into account ferrying trucks to mechanics, BA Cylinders runs or any other admin running around. Even getting paid $1/km we are still very cheap labour!
Most volunteers are happy to pay for equipment costs and the like out of their own pockets, so its not like we are a huge burden to begin with, who knows, it may even help with retention and recruitment.
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Look at it this way. These examples do NOT imply that petrol is cheap; it just illustrates how outrageous some prices are.
Can of Red Bull, 250ml, $2.95 ... $11.80 per litre.
Robitussin Cough Mixture, 200ml, $9.95 ..... $199.00 per litre.
L'Oreal Revitalift Day Cream, 50ml, $29.95 ... $599.00 per litre.
Bundy Rum, 1250ml, $51.00 .... $40.80 per litre!
Visene Eye Drops, 15ml, $5.69 ... $379.00 per litre!
Britney Spears Fantasy Perfume, 50ml, $29 ... $580.00 per litre.
Evian water, 375ml, $2.95 ...$7.86 per litre!
:wink:
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Evian water, 375ml, $2.95 ...$7.86 per litre! too right mengcfs thats outrageous.....drinking water at a price!!!
Water collected directly from the sky...Priceless :)
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OK, that is the type of reply I thought I would get.
Personally I do not think cash reimbursement is going to work in the future.
The rest of the conversation went on trying to work out if the Unit or Brigade or shed could change procedures to allow 'not very financial' but available people to respond to incidents during the day/work time.
One of the ideas touted is that they collect the extra crew on the way to incidents, rather than everyone reponding to the shed. The vehicle travels that route anyway to get to the major road, so the extra responders walk to the end of their street from home.
For myself, I have joined a SES Unit that it is OK to attend within 20 mins & is close to my workplace (a kilometre walk). This is because I catch public transport to work. At this time I cannot respond to the closest Unit to home because that is 55 km from my workplace & 8 km from home. We have two cars in a family of 6 people with 3 drivers. I cannot guarantee I will have a car to respond with in the driveway.
Yes I have looked at the local CFS station 1.5km from home. But I would never make the truck when I walk (I would collapse from running the distance 8-) ).
Could we begin car pooling to training events or should a vehicle (difficult with one vehicle in the shed) provide a 'taxi' service to some people ?
Any other ideas ?
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Car pools and picking people up with the appliance would no doubt work with the SES and Rural CFS brigades, but I can't see it working very well in the metroplitan areas.
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once i didn't have a car at home so i legged it to the end of the drive and hailed a passing member of the brigade.
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CFS members can claim the cost of ALL of their travel, and ALL of their CFS phone calls, through their Regional office on the appropriate form....as we were advised by our Regional Business Officer at the start of last fire season....I'm not sure how many have bothered to claim.....
Pip
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travel to and from station??
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That question was asked, and the answer was YES.
As was things like the Captain ringing the training officer to ask "What do you want to do for training this week"
Pip
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all sounds good...but unless ur super efficient and super organised it be a head ache to sort out what is cfs and what is personel...i know id be stuffed :roll:
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Simpler solution - you can claim business travel at tax time & phone calls.
All it needs is a tax office ruling covering volunteer emergency services.
And all our respective headquarters need to do is issue a statement to the members saying they are active members, that information can come from the incident reports we submit!
Its not rocket science - all it needs is all our pollies to give a toss :evil:
cheers
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Chook there in lies the problem, most of the pollies dont give a toss,...... well not for the vollies anyway, but if CFSVA or your equivalent, got a petition up and running for a tax office ruling as you described in your last post, how many would sign it and actively promote it?
If the answer is in the affirmative and there is a general groundswell of support, a letter needs to be sent to Wendy Shirley from your group CFSVA rep asking for action.
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CFS members can claim the cost of ALL of their travel, and ALL of their CFS phone calls, through their Regional office on the appropriate form....as we were advised by our Regional Business Officer at the start of last fire season....I'm not sure how many have bothered to claim.....
did you get that in writing? I think you'll find the "rules" have changed at a regional level since then.
A course I did about 2 weeks ago, an email I was shown from the regional training person said only one travel claim per 4 people (presumably from the one brigade) would be accepted.
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few weeks ago when i did my course, everybody got a chance to fill out there form for travel cost claims....
my $11.25 cheque went straight back into the tank :)
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A course I did about 2 weeks ago, an email I was shown from the regional training person said only one travel claim per 4 people (presumably from the one brigade) would be accepted.
I find that a little hard to believe. It may be circumstantial that even if members of the same Brigade are attending the same course they may be travelling to the course from different locations where it is not possible to car pool. Every confirmation letter of a course states "wherever possible a command vehicle must be used in accordance with COSO yada yada yada". However, common sense should prevail if multiple members from the same Brigade are attending the same course and travel in the same car. :wink:
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A course I did about 2 weeks ago, an email I was shown from the regional training person said only one travel claim per 4 people (presumably from the one brigade) would be accepted.
I find that a little hard to believe. It may be circumstantial that even if members of the same Brigade are attending the same course they may be travelling to the course from different locations where it is not possible to car pool. Every confirmation letter of a course states "wherever possible a command vehicle must be used in accordance with COSO yada yada yada". However, common sense should prevail if multiple members from the same Brigade are attending the same course and travel in the same car. :wink:
yeah I was a bit surprised but took a command car so didn't get to "test" it. No claim forms were handed out at the course either (bit odd too).
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I did the AIIMS course 3 weeks ago and there was a pink slip for travel claims on every persons desk.
Taking a group car is the smart thing to do and I can recommend the CFS Hilton for your next holiday :lol:
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It comes back to are you in it for the right reasons if all you want is a tax break or the gov to help prop you up then i suggest that you are in it for the wrong reasons. Do the lions/rotary,probus clubs sponsor there vollies petrol when out helping to community i dont think so!!!! if you dont like it then dont filtered do it!!!
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It comes back to are you in it for the right reasons if all you want is a tax break or the gov to help prop you up then i suggest that you are in it for the wrong reasons. Do the lions/rotary,probus clubs sponsor there vollies petrol when out helping to community i dont think so!!!! if you dont like it then dont filtered do it!!!
well said :wink:
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It comes back to are you in it for the right reasons if all you want is a tax break or the gov to help prop you up then i suggest that you are in it for the wrong reasons. Do the lions/rotary,probus clubs sponsor there vollies petrol when out helping to community i dont think so!!!! if you dont like it then dont filtered do it!!!
Yeh can see where your coming from Foxy, BUT in this situation ,what the gist of this thread is and it ties in with some of the other current running threads is.....Volunteer numbers, are we losing some of our members because they find it an extra financial impost, the training night travel co$t$, the callout travel co$t$, the meetings travel co$t$, the i'll just pop down to the station maintenance travel co$t$
Whilst some members might live 100 meters from the station , others live considerable distances and might be a 50 - 100 callout a year brigade , now when you start to add up the running co$t$ over a year , it can be considerable.
If your a married, with young kids parent ,then your already denying them time with you, whilst you do your community service, now in these times of spiralling fuel costs are you going to deny them or your partner some other pleasure because your running co$t$ have risen and you cant afford it.
This is not a whinge about they want to get paid, its a whinge about not being further penalised for doing the right thing!
Whilst I agree, most of the time with the tough love attitude of "if you dont like it dont filtered do it" is this attitude costing us members, listening costs you nothing, not listening costs you members and maybe much more!!!!!!
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And since we're part of a government agency, unlike lions/rotary, etc... There is a chance for us to be reimbursed for our travels, which already occurs for courses ran at the state training centre. We pay the government taxes, bit of a double wammy, a set amount Tax Deduction for each member would be nice :) And we end up either partially reimbursed or over reimbursed when July comes :D
Been sussing this out with the accountants i work for ;)
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Fox as Zippy said plus those organisations you mentioned help the community out. We are Professional Volunteer Emergency Responders - who if it was a slightly different world would get paid!
Now communities can do without those organisations, but they either have to have us or paid staff!
Finally I'm not sure where you are from, how long you ahve served or what you have been exposed to but from I know what I have done & experienced in my time in the service & I find being compared to those mentioned community service clubs insulting! (yes they do a great job but its not the same).
Up until recently our military reserves were not used for anything close to what they have been trained to do, but they get payed for every minute they spend in uniform, their employers also get very good compensation & they get brilliant support. And yet we face the "enemy" (Mother Nature/ Very stupid people)every day, have our lives disrupted, have our lives changed (not always for the best) & for some of us relive the real horrors that our service exposes us to for the rest of our lives. I don't think a little compensation for fuel is a big ask!
Finally when there are no volunteers left to fight the fires, Cut the people out there cars, pull the bodies/ bits of bodies out of all of the different situations we find them in, get out in the storms & floods when normal people are snugled up in their beds - then when you ask yourself why? You will already have the answer. Fair dinkum mate I'm sure you just say stuff just to stir scheiße.
cheers
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Fox as Zippy said plus those organisations you mentioned help the community out. We are Professional Volunteer Emergency Responders - who if it was a slightly different world would get paid!
Now communities can do without those organisations, but they either have to have us or paid staff!
Finally I'm not sure where you are from, how long you ahve served or what you have been exposed to but from I know what I have done & experienced in my time in the service & I find being compared to those mentioned community service clubs insulting! (yes they do a great job but its not the same).
Up until recently our military reserves were not used for anything close to what they have been trained to do, but they get payed for every minute they spend in uniform, their employers also get very good compensation & they get brilliant support. And yet we face the "enemy" (Mother Nature/ Very stupid people)every day, have our lives disrupted, have our lives changed (not always for the best) & for some of us relive the real horrors that our service exposes us to for the rest of our lives. I don't think a little compensation for fuel is a big ask!
Finally when there are no volunteers left to fight the fires, Cut the people out there cars, pull the bodies/ bits of bodies out of all of the different situations we find them in, get out in the storms & floods when normal people are snugled up in their beds - then when you ask yourself why? You will already have the answer. Fair dinkum mate I'm sure you just say stuff just to stir filtered.
cheers
Currently served between 15 - 20 yrs in the CFS and yes a quite busy brigade. Have spent a lot of time away from family and my work, i might add when not at work no pay, and like i said i do it for the love of my community and not so the gov can pay me to travel to the station. The real reason you are not attracting vollies is that we now live in a time poor society where the average joe blow couldn't give the time of day let alone be bothered with the emergency services that just might inconvenience meal times. Military federally funded, CFS SES state funded. So lets raise our taxes so you can claim back some of your fuel costs. Be filtered. Do it cause you can and not cause you want financial assistance.
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Do it cause you can and not cause you want financial assistance.
Fox Mulder: Just because people want to claim travel expenses, doesn't mean they're volunteering for the wrong reasons. This thread is about petrol prices forcing volunteers to re-think if they can afford to volunteer, not trying to attract volunteers with financial incentives. Hence the whole point of the thread: Do petrol prices mean you can't?
If you've been in the service for 15-20 years, you're probably too old to remember what its like to be a student, struggling to find money for food, let alone petrol. As people have said in this thread previously, some fire fighters are spending over a thousand dollars each year on travel expenses for CFS. That might not be much for you, but for a student, (the ones we want, because they don't have the family and work commitments), that's enough to make them re-think whether they can afford to volunteer.
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"removed" it made no sense
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Im a 19 year old male that is lucky to have a job. The down side of my job is that I hate it and for the level of work I do I should not be on the pay that I am on. ($14 per hour)I live about 12ks from my station. 7 min drive. as the cost of fuel is $1.86 (last I looked) It is starting to cost me to much money to do what I need to do. I have just been made training officer so for me that means more driving to find the ideal place for training. Some compensation would be nice for the work I do.
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Fox - I know the difference between the Reservists & the Emergency Services. The comparision I was tryin to draw is that many years ago it was realised by the Federal government that it could not afford a large standing army, however it could not afford not to have a large body of trained personnel - hence the reserves scheme.
You compared us to Rotary, Lions etc - I think we are closer to the military services (in more ways than one :wink: ). I'm not arguing for payment, but I think adequate compensation for expenses incurred is not a big ask.
I get more than adequately compensated in my payed job so why shouldn't I get the same for assisting in providing an essential service to my community?
Anyway I have made my feelings felt on this subject.
cheers
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This isn't about financial incentives for volunteering, it's about making it financially viable for people to continue to volunteer. I joined becaused I wanted to do something for my community that was actually helping people. I then realised that I enjoyed what I did, and I put a lot of time and effort into my brigade.
There comes a time that no matter how much I love what I do, no matter how much of my personal life I want to put aside for the brigade, I will not be able to, because when it comes down to being able to pay rent and eat, sadly, that will always take precedence over the Brigade.
If I can't afford to take the $$$ hit that undertaking CFS duties costs me, I will stop. This isn't about my employment, or leaving and not getting paid, this is merely about the thousands of extra km's that I drive each year for CFS. I know that I don't have it anwhere near s bad as some others around...
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This isn't about financial incentives for volunteering, it's about making it financially viable for people to continue to volunteer. I joined becaused I wanted to do something for my community that was actually helping people. I then realised that I enjoyed what I did, and I put a lot of time and effort into my brigade.
There comes a time that no matter how much I love what I do, no matter how much of my personal life I want to put aside for the brigade, I will not be able to, because when it comes down to being able to pay rent and eat, sadly, that will always take precedence over the Brigade.
If I can't afford to take the $$$ hit that undertaking CFS duties costs me, I will stop. This isn't about my employment, or leaving and not getting paid, this is merely about the thousands of extra km's that I drive each year for CFS. I know that I don't have it anwhere near s bad as some others around...
I think that pretty much sum's everything up. The cost of volunteering most probably hits the country more, as the cost of petrol is much higher out there...much more than the $1.50's we're experiencing here around the Urban/Rural interface.
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Thanks for the interesting discussion.... I personally think each volunteer organisation (brigade, unit, etc) needs to consider how to attract the volunteer who does not have much money, but would welcome the training & companionship of being an emergency service volunteer.
The discussion was started during a 'recruiting volunteer day-time responders' workshop conducted by the VMB approximately 12 to 18 months ago. I believe one Unit is now facilitating car-pooling to weekly training meetings, by having a list on their notice board of people offering to share petrol costs, their telephone number & which suburb they live in.
As stated before, I do not believe financial reimbursement of all costs will ever work. This is against the volunteer ethos & would be too open to abuse
I wanted to see where this discussion lead before mentioning my reason for creating the thread.
What prompted me to start this thread is that the new SES 2008/09 SHQ training program has been issued.
On page 7 it states under 'Travel' heading "Attendees are required to arrange Unit, State Fleet, public or private transport to training venues. Generally, mileage reimbursement is not available to attendees. Mileage allowances will only be paid under special circumstances to attendees who have negotiated this prior to the activity with the Training Activity Manager.
The activity confirmation will normally list those attending the course or workshop, and attendees are encouraged to make contact with each other to organise group travel"
On the surface, this makes sense to me to reduce costs and ensure that the travel money is allocated to assist the correct volunteers.
SES SHQ courses are generally intended for volunteers who will take the skills back to the Units to train others. But the courses are also for volunteers who are interested in the skill that will not be taught within their Unit (though priority is given to volunteers from Units where the skill is a core competency, which is exactly right).
Personally, an 'Air Observer' course is not a core competency for the Unit I am with and thus I will need to do more work to see where I stand for travel to do the course. But the 'Operate Communications Equipment, Implementation Workshop' is a core competency, so this will be easier to nominate for.
It is a change that has happened because of the SES budget restrictions and I am not sure if it is good or bad for majority of the SES volunteers.
This will be discussed at higher levels so we will see what happens.
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Thats how I justified keeping our troopy Andrew. When I was the boss of the unit - no one was to use their private car. That included running up to Renmark to do admin when RHQ was located there.
There maybe high level discussions on this topic but until "some" units realise that the equipment in their care is for all to use (¬ just a select few) & until SES starts becoming more forceful about things then nothing will change.
Watchout for FleetSA - they charge a small fortune, even when you don't use the car! Numbers well said :wink:
cheers
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In one of my positions in the CFS is Purchasing I normally have to travel 7 to 8 km to get a CFS vehicle it is the same distance traveled to go do the purchasing so i don't worry about getting it. Since the petrol cost rising i will be thinking twice now before I do it as i was normally between $800 to a $1000 dollars out of pocket a year. Getting to expensive as it does not include all the other stuff I do.
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As stated before, I do not believe financial reimbursement of all costs will ever work. This is against the volunteer ethos & would be too open to abuse
I disagree on all counts Andrew.
The UN Charter on Volunteering (the Australian forum for whihc I understand the CFS has had some input) states that the organisation shall meet reasonable costs of the volunteer. When CFS & SES were local entities, locally funded, it made sense for members to carry some costs as part of their community's financial contribution.
Both are now "fully" state govt funded. To continue to pick up the cost of delivering the service hides the true cost & allows cynical politicians to short change the Services, transferring delivery costs to individuals & businesses instead of spreading it across the wider community.
Having one's reasonable costs covered in no way affects the volunteer ethos.
It can be made to work if the political & organisational will to do so exists.
Brigades & Units would simply need to be a bit tighter with the attendance record keeping that they are already supposed to be doing. It would be no more open to abuse than the current petty cash / reimbursements system. It would simply increase the range of reimbursable items.
Oh, and yes, I can afford to continue doing this, even if petrol goes above $2/L. But there would come a point where I would refuse to pay the government for the privilege of doing work for which the government should meet the costs.