SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: 6739264 on September 02, 2008, 12:43:46 AM
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There are a few systems getting around the country that deal with turning out fire/rescue personell that aren't attached to a station 24/7. Basically both the volunteers and the retained folks.
One of the better ones I've seen turns out the station, then calls the members attached with a recorded message basically stating: "Fire call, are you able to turn out? 1 for yes, 2 for no, 3 for unsure(eg: checking with boss)" This then reports back to comms, stating who (all based on numbers, not names) has been contacted and their response. This allows comms to have the jump on brigades that have low numbers and the possibility of requiring another brigade to be turned out.
Would something like this work for the CFS? Maybe we look at setting up day/night/weekend lists. Certain people get called 24/7 others not during 9-5 etc etc. Although integrating a system like this would no doubt be very difficult to do considering the amount of changes no doubt required, and the fact that some people no doubt don't want to be 'accountable' for turning out to things.
It would help with more speedy brigade defaulting, especially in time critical incidents such as structure fires and also give members already at the station a better idea of the amount of crew coming in. No one else coming? then you don't need to wait for another 5 minutes 'just in case'. Its not as invasive as set rosters, but also allows people to put down what times they are contactable for.
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Most stations already have a board with crews availability on them and its a case of when the pager goes off if your available you respond.
Last thing we need is the SES style of getting a page,and wasting more minutes by ringing the Duty Officer with whether your available or not, if you can respond just go.
My opinion
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I believe there is one system around, being trialled...(might be in Victoria?) where you can send a message direct from your pager, to confirm your attendance...
Basically, the pager message for the call comes through, if you can respond within the appropriate time frame, you press the relevant button on the pager, and your message is sent to the releveant person / perole / computer advising of how many are coming....
However, having said that, I have a fairly good idea of who is around the district on any given day, and how many are likely to respond.
Particularly on bad fire days, I know exactly who is around, and who can respond, and when......
But my brigade is fairly small, and not a huge number of calls, so it is fairly easy to know the availability of the crews...
Pip
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Most stations already have a board with crews availability on them and its a case of when the pager goes off if your available you respond.
Last thing we need is the SES style of getting a page,and wasting more minutes by ringing the Duty Officer with whether your available or not, if you can respond just go.
My opinion
Ok, lets try this again. Go to the top of the page, read my post then write a response.
There is nothing to do with a Duty officer, you don't ring anyone and yes, you just go.
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There are a few systems getting around the country that deal with turning out fire/rescue personell that aren't attached to a station 24/7. Basically both the volunteers and the retained folks.
One of the better ones I've seen turns out the station, then calls the members attached with a recorded message basically stating: "Fire call, are you able to turn out? 1 for yes, 2 for no, 3 for unsure(eg: checking with boss)" This then reports back to comms, stating who (all based on numbers, not names) has been contacted and their response. This allows comms to have the jump on brigades that have low numbers and the possibility of requiring another brigade to be turned out.
Same as calling in really and I used the Duty Officer as an example not gospel :-P
Would something like this work for the CFS? Maybe we look at setting up day/night/weekend lists. Certain people get called 24/7 others not during 9-5 etc etc. Although integrating a system like this would no doubt be very difficult to do considering the amount of changes no doubt required, and the fact that some people no doubt don't want to be 'accountable' for turning out to things.[/quote]
It would help with more speedy brigade defaulting, especially in time critical incidents such as structure fires and also give members already at the station a better idea of the amount of crew coming in. No one else coming? then you don't need to wait for another 5 minutes 'just in case'. Its not as invasive as set rosters, but also allows people to put down what times they are contactable for.
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Thats what the board already does :wink:
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Same as calling in really and I used the Duty Officer as an example not gospel :-P
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Thats what the board already does :wink:
It takes far less effort and is a simulatneously automated process, unlike having 40+ members call the ONE officer.
The board doesn't take into account people needing to run to the shops, or being tied up at the moment the call comes in. In sure people go to the station and update the board multiple times a day ;)
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Same as calling in really and I used the Duty Officer as an example not gospel :-P
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Thats what the board already does :wink:
It takes far less effort and is a simulatneously automated process, unlike having 40+ members call the ONE officer.
The board doesn't take into account people needing to run to the shops, or being tied up at the moment the call comes in. In sure people go to the station and update the board multiple times a day ;)
and people taking a crap etc.
We have 4 minutes to acknowledge the page for Urban brigades and 6 minutes Rural.
If you dont have the crew and cant respond you then default to next CFS brigade if its CFS area,or back to MFS if its theirs and they will send the next appropriate resource as per SOP's.
Why waste more money on another system :-P
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Why waste more money on another system :-P
Sorry Champ, I should have known better than to try and start some stimulating discussion. Anyways, back to whining about screwy responses...
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Why waste more money on another system :-P
Sorry Champ, I should have known better than to try and start some stimulating discussion. Anyways, back to whining about screwy responses...
Stimulating discussion is fine, but lets get the system we're currently using right before we try to throw another one into the mix eh :wink:
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Stimulating discussion is fine, but lets get the system we're currently using right before we try to throw another one into the mix eh :wink:
Yeah, you're right. I was so close to handing it to Euan, had the appointment and everything.
Hows the overalls, woollen turnout coat and top guard treating you anyway? They ain't broke either...
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I imagine anyone responsible for ensuring the brigade's turnout would be interested in this sort of thing. It can be a tense few moments standing by the truck wondering if any more people are going to turn up.
Am I right in assuming that pagers no longer exist in this scenario - we just get a phone call?
Upside = ability for feedback (as you pointout)
Downside = I have my pager on me semi-permanenently (bedside table, in pocket on silent in meetings etc) so I know when it goes off something's up. I don't sleep with my phone, and I ignore it during meetings, dinner/when out etc, so I'd probably miss calls.
But that's just me!!
I like the principle because I'm often the one wondering if more crew are going to turn up. I'm just not sure how many of our crew would take to it. Like most things, I guess if you introduce a new system, people will adapt.
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I bet improving the current Alerts System would achieve this!
It would mean a phone number for every brigade to have conference calls, you would have a electronic voice say to you:
STRATHALBYN CFS RESPONSE, PRESS 1 TO RESPOND, PRESS 2 FOR DELAYED RESPONSE, PRESS 3 TO NOT RESPOND.
The "3" from 04xx xxx xxx would mean JOE BLOGGS is NOT RESPONDING.
Mod note: :) random numbers - never know who your going to call...
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Most stations already have a board with crews availability on them and its a case of when the pager goes off if your available you respond.
This would be a good idea to use during the summer to see how many people are available but as what SA Firey said it really pends on whether you can turn up or not
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Mod note: Smiley random numbers - never know who your going to call...
owww, but thats the whole fun of it!! somebody puts up a random number..and everybody rings it to see who it is :P Its probably some old person in a nursing home!
Mmm, roberts right, The Page comes, people still remain to have a choice to respond or not respond, as they may have something come up at short notice, and not have the time to update there availability.
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It would be great to know who can / cant make the job, however there are a few issues with using mobile phone technology for a task like this.
Pager messages are just blasted out, if your pager gets it then great, if not meh it tried its best.
An automated phone message system requires that an individual call be placed to each recipient, which must be answered, rejected or dialed out. The issue is that this is using basic phone cell tower concepts, and I can just imaging what would happen on a big day when the system requests a strike team and then call each of the members - chaos. Phones use a similar cell system that the GRN does, need I say more.
However it would be very cool if you could push a magic button on your pager which then sent a response back to either your station or comms and gave an indication as to your availability. Pip has already indicated that this style communication is being trailed elsewhere.
One of the biggest issues with maintaining a list of phone numbers is that they change, but are not updated on the right 'system'. Alerts has all sorts of strange phone numbers in it, and very confused non CFS members trying to answer the calls.
Of course this always comes down to cost - and as I see it there are far more important things to spend the dollars on that the status of individual members during a turnout.
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Am I right in assuming that pagers no longer exist in this scenario - we just get a phone call?
I'm still a big fan of the pagers, given mobile phones occaisionally having issues. If you don't have your phone on you, you still have your pager. Not to mention your pagers still gives you incident details.
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Pagers are the way to go but it would be good idea to have turn out info sent to mobile numbers if the pager isnt carried around although what matthew said is true alot of volunteers do tend to change their numbers if they switch service providers or buy a new phone
So it would be difficult to keep up but still its a great idea :-)
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CFA have a system that they have been using for sometime not sure fully how it works but its along the lines pager goes off you push a button on your pager to say that you are attending. First member at station gets a print out of who is attending the call from the ranks.... Not sure which region was using this but I would say it would have to be region 8 or 13....
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Theres always a possibility that kinda system could be introduced here in South Australia in the next few years cause it sounds like one that would be real useful
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I saw a system in America that uses a free call number and a computer in the station, when you get a call you ring this number and it recognises your number and puts your name on the computer as attending, so when you are at the station you see a list of people that are on their way. It also enables you to update availability to.
Was simple to use as you just ring a number, no talking, texting or anything.
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Thats a decent system darren.
i can just see it now: "Speed dial 9" ;)
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Bill,
haven't heard of that system being used with pagers here in Vict.
Certainly a response sytem has been used by some brigades in that members use a phone to ring in to a dedicated number.
Much like (or the same as) the system described by Darren. Doesn't need anyone to answer. It just logs as an incoming unanswered call which is identified by line calling technology (NOTE: only ring in if you ARE attending!)
The pager idea would be great - but basically they're cheap(ish) radio receivers - not transmitters!
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Taking a step back & not worrying about $$$, would you agree that people in incident control need to know what vehicle & crew (& the total capabilities of both) are responding to an incident ?? Then the incident controller (either local or regional or state) can make a decision with the right information.
If starting with all new equipment & no $$$ restrictions, then I would suggest you need:
** some form of electronic acknowledgement by the crew that the response request has been received & how many are responding. If this electronic response provided a volunteer member number, then this can be linked to their training record. Then you would know that 2 are BA qualified, 1 is a newbie and 1 is RCR. The method that the volunteer activates this response needs to be quick, fool-proof and legal while driving.
** somehow the information on 'how long before the member arrives' would be nice.
** when someone enters the shed, their electronic keycard is scanned to update the system stating that this volunteer member has arrived in the shed.
** the team leader or SFF then goes to a TIMS type system to get more incident information. This includes a response listing of personnel.
** the team leader would electronically allocate people to a vehicle. For SES, it can include which trailer is added to the vehicle capabilities (eg boat, flood pump, USAR).
** when the vehicle rolls, this is automatically recorded electronically. Could be a RF tag on the vehicle.
Then the incident controller knows what training each person has in the vehicle, what is the capabilities of the vehicle and what additional personnel are responding.
The incident controller can make the decision on if this is an adequate response or not to the incident. If it is adequate, then all other responding personnel are 'stop called' so they can get back to their private life.
If not adequate, then the incident controller can respond more resources.
Could all be done via a different type of devices to replace the existing pager and $$$. I think that the technology exists, but would take a lot of effort to integrate the existing data to display on a GIS system display.
What do people think of my fantasy ??
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Something that will:
1. Take as little as time as possible to do.
2. As little attention is given to it.
I see will work. Diverting our attention and time (which affects responses) to do something rather low priority when we should be processing the pager info in our minds (ok house fire, take 34P, PBI gold, ensure approriate response, etc etc till the mind blows up) and already on the way to the station, may turnout to only be a hinderence.
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Some interesting idea there bajdas....can see some useful points.
I can also see some downsides.....in a response to a one vehicle station, with 5 people arriving in a 6 minutes, looking up to see who is walking in the door is going to be quicker than trying to get the print out, read it, comprehend it etc...!!
I like the electronic acknowledgment at the station - but not quite for what you mention - if people "log in" then any additional resources attending after the appliance has left, will know exactly who has gone on the call - something I want to know, if I'm not on the appliance.
As for other people comments re mobile phone - apart from the things already mentioned, there are a few other issues. Not everyone has a mobile phone.(Believe it or not!!)
And as I have mentioned before, mobile phone don't work everywhere...certainly in my area, the mobile phone coverage is rather dodgy...and I know of several members of the brigade who can drive from their house (where there is virtually no mobile phone coverage) all the way to the station, without getting any coverage. Depending on where you stand in front of the station, have the wind blowing the right way, stand on one leg, poke you tongue at the right angle, and you might get coverage there too...!!
Pip
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Most stations already have a board with crews availability on them and its a case of when the pager goes off if your available you respond.
Most? I don't know of any station in my area with such a system... (but maybe I just haven't seen it...)
We have 4 minutes to acknowledge the page for Urban brigades and 6 minutes Rural.
If you dont have the crew and cant respond you then default to next CFS brigade if its CFS area,or back to MFS if its theirs and they will send the next appropriate resource as per SOP's.
But that means you have to wait 6 minutes before you default. If you already know that no one is coming after 2 minutes, that extra 4 minutes is a lot of wasted time...
Why waste more money on another system :-P
Perhaps because the current one has flaws, and we're trying to provide the best service to the community? :P
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Mt Barker have been running a very simple turnout confirmation system, for a few years now and it works really well. We have found with a large town and the traffic, some of our members can take up to 6min just to get to the station.
All our members that live more then two minutes from the station are given a CB radio (little portable hand held- norm kept in their car)
We have a base CB radio in our station (next to our PPE).
The first officer at the station will do a general broadcast "who is mobile to the station" members just reply with e.g. "Andy 3min" “Bob 4min” "Greg 2min”
As an officer this is great as I know:
-How many more crew are coming and what skills they have e.g. (BA, RCR, Driver)
- Whether to get another brigade mobile, if we don't have enough crew coming
-Whether to leave a driver or an officer off the 1st truck to crew 2nd truck
- Whether to wait that extra min for that BA/RCR person WHO IS coming
- Whether to load up the first truck with six crew or just send 4 or 5 and keep members back to crew other trucks etc etc etc
We also keep track of our member's availability, with a list on a board in the station of work hours, extra commitments e.g. sports etc. Anything out side of this our member's page out.
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...I like the electronic acknowledgment at the station - but not quite for what you mention - if people "log in" then any additional resources attending after the appliance has left, will know exactly who has gone on the call - something I want to know, if I'm not on the appliance....
This can be covered manually & the system has been used for many years in SES Units.
Either use a whiteboard where people write their name under a vehicle number has they load in the vehicle or each person has a magnetic name bar on a status board. Then the name is moved to each heading of vehicle, resting, on leave, at LHQ, reserve at home, strike team, etc.
Then the OIC can review the board quickly & know who is where.
My own personal viewpoint, this is essential 'if something goes wrong to a vehicle or crew'. You need to know where everyone is from OHS&W perspective when the Unit/Brigade is operational.
The only downside is that the OIC has the knowledge in their head about the qualifications of the people, any risks by type of incident to individuals & how to contact individuals if required.
Used the status board many years ago to call volunteers families during long operational timeframes, so that the families know what is happening.
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No argument about that badjas!!
The difficulty I have found currently, is working out a suitable manual system to capture the names etc...... white boards, helmet / Key tags, magnetic boards etc.....all possible systems, but finding one to suit, and that works properly, is sometimes not that easy!!
Pip
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Ahhh.. Finally the debate turns to ICMS, and the total lack of its use outside of strike teams.
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No argument about that badjas!!
The difficulty I have found currently, is working out a suitable manual system to capture the names etc...... white boards, helmet / Key tags, magnetic boards etc.....all possible systems, but finding one to suit, and that works properly, is sometimes not that easy!!
Pip
We simply look at what helmets and gear are not hanging up. Unless someone is on a course (and generally you know who is doing a course), their gear should be there. It works for us quite well.
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I Just spoke to a friend in CFA and he said the pager system was tested in regio 8 and only a handful of briagde's took part in it,like anything it had problems and they are now looking into something much better...So i guess watch this space.
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There is nothing more frustrating than waiting for the arrival of that last one or two firies before the appliance goes mobile, certainly be nice to see some appropriate system across the state. The pagers are now what 4 -5 years old so their realistic service life is coming to a end soon, it would be interesting to see if Comms are looking at enhanced services on the next gen of pagers! Maybe they will do that, right after SACAD tehehe :-D
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I like the CFS Mt Barker system of UHF portables. Simply to use & accurate.
I assume the UHF CB's can also be used at the tasking because everyone in the crew is already carrying one.
Pity so many 'idiots' on the UHF CB's in metropoloitan area that would restrict operation on a pre-determined frequency.
Do you experience any issues of the frequency already being used ??
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The downfall of brigade based systems is that there is no indication to comms as to the status of brigade members. If comms has "Unable to respond" from 19/20 members within the first minute, its then easy to turnout another brigade without having to wait for confirmation from the brigade itself. Its great that Barker use a system that works for them, but lets not forget that they are a busy and switched on brigade, which puts them certainly in the minority of CFS briagdes.
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In theory the system of brigade members having UHF CB Radios in their own vehicles and calling the base say they are responding to the station e.t.a of such and such is a good idea but getting the approval from group officers and the regional offices would be difficult if you wanted to put this system into practial use
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I've got nothing sensible to add to this subject,I still have the picture in my head of Pip standing on one leg out the front of the fire station, leaning to one side with her tongue stuck out attempting to get phone service. Does it help if you hold an umbrella as well?? :-D
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I like the CFS Mt Barker system of UHF portables. Simply to use & accurate.
I assume the UHF CB's can also be used at the tasking because everyone in the crew is already carrying one.
I would hope they aren't using it as a fireground radio, when there is an existing VHF & GRN simplex system in place for firegound communication. What happens when the next brigade turn up but crews cant communicate as one brigade has a different system?
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True 24pumper but you can use UHF CB handhelds for communication between pump operator and radio operator :-)
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Not many brigades have a .5 member around to utilise as a radio operator......most of the time the pumpie is the radio operator!
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I like the CFS Mt Barker system of UHF portables. Simply to use & accurate.
I assume the UHF CB's can also be used at the tasking because everyone in the crew is already carrying one.
I would hope they aren't using it as a fireground radio, when there is an existing VHF & GRN simplex system in place for firegound communication. What happens when the next brigade turn up but crews cant communicate as one brigade has a different system?
OK, I am from an organisation that only has GRN for local communication. Some of the vehicles have UHF CB installed (also HF but that is long distance) & a heap of UHF CB portables were used at a fireground staging camp. But I am not sure if many Units have them.
Some Units do use them for communication between team leader & first aider in the vehicle at RCR. I have also heard them being used in other situations (between ground & roof crews, hauling & cliff face, etc).
Agreed not suitable for multi brigade communication, but I think still useful for local comms that does not carry any confidential information.
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We run an emergency callout system here at work. We ring a 1800 number request a turnout of off duty ESO and ERT members, the call centre hits a button and every member on that list gets a phone call with a recorded message saying emergency response required, then all the person has to do is press the matching option ie 1 am attending, 2 delayed etc. If the person doesnt answer there phone a text is sent with options to follow.
The whole process between the first call to the 1800 No. to the person sending a response is 1 min. When then can get a report back indicating response numbers, allowing us to determin if external assistance is required.
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True 24pumper but you can use UHF CB handhelds for communication between pump operator and radio operator :-)
Wow, do people still actually do this......
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In theory the system of brigade members having UHF CB Radios in their own vehicles and calling the base say they are responding to the station e.t.a of such and such is a good idea but getting the approval from group officers and the regional offices would be difficult if you wanted to put this system into practial use
Robert, why would you need approval from the Group Officers or Region to install a UHF radio in your fire station ?? And why would they knock it back ??
We have been running this system for a number of years now with our more distant members and day crew guys calling up and advising their ETA to the station, seems to work pretty well for us.
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In theory the system of brigade members having UHF CB Radios in their own vehicles and calling the base say they are responding to the station e.t.a of such and such is a good idea but getting the approval from group officers and the regional offices would be difficult if you wanted to put this system into practial use
Robert, why would you need approval from the Group Officers or Region to install a UHF radio in your fire station ?? And why would they knock it back ??
We have been running this system for a number of years now with our more distant members and day crew guys calling up and advising their ETA to the station, seems to work pretty well for us.
Robert Robert Robert....I think you should think about what you are going to say before you post....while UHF CB is not endorsed by CFSHQ as a reliable communication method it has been adopted by many brigades and especially farm fire units with great success.
With that attitude no wonder the DOO cant get new members :mrgreen:
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In theory the system of brigade members having UHF CB Radios in their own vehicles and calling the base say they are responding to the station e.t.a of such and such is a good idea but getting the approval from group officers and the regional offices would be difficult if you wanted to put this system into practial use
Robert, why would you need approval from the Group Officers or Region to install a UHF radio in your fire station ?? And why would they knock it back ??
We have been running this system for a number of years now with our more distant members and day crew guys calling up and advising their ETA to the station, seems to work pretty well for us.
Robert Robert Robert....I think you should think about what you are going to say before you post....while UHF CB is not endorsed by CFSHQ as a reliable communication method it has been adopted by many brigades and especially farm fire units with great success.
With that attitude no wonder the DOO cant get new members :mrgreen:
actually UHF CB is not only endorsed but all new (and refurbished) appliances will now come fitted with one (the ICOM IC440). UHF CB is already in extensive use within CFS in many parts of the state and this now makes it official.
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we rely on our UHF radios in our group hugely to communicate with ouprivate units because with out them we would be filtered stuffed.
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actually UHF CB is not only endorsed but all new (and refurbished) appliances will now come fitted with one (the ICOM IC440). UHF CB is already in extensive use within CFS in many parts of the state and this now makes it official.
Are there any plans to install them into stations also?
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actually UHF CB is not only endorsed but all new (and refurbished) appliances will now come fitted with one (the ICOM IC440). UHF CB is already in extensive use within CFS in many parts of the state and this now makes it official.
Are there any plans to install them into stations also?
Saying if UHF CB's are installed in stations as per what CFS_Firey has asked will they be installed in every station or just in the stations where the call out rate is much higher ?
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We've had a UHF in our station for as long as i can remember we use it to talk to the local SAPol on the odd occasion, and for the last 3 years we've had a fixed uhf and 3 portable uhf's in each appliance.
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actually UHF CB is not only endorsed but all new (and refurbished) appliances will now come fitted with one (the ICOM IC440). UHF CB is already in extensive use within CFS in many parts of the state and this now makes it official.
Are there any plans to install them into stations also?
no retro-fitting is planned, into either appliances or stations.
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no retro-fitting is planned, into either appliances or stations.
Pity cause UHF can act as a back up radio if the GRN and VHF fails :-( :-)
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VHF Fail...lol...
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no retro-fitting is planned, into either appliances or stations.
Pity cause UHF can act as a back up radio if the GRN and VHF fails :-( :-)
Robert, possible that UHF CB would not work in smoke environment. Same as GRN handhelds. Both are close in frequencies:
GRN = 413 to 420 Mhz ) thus both are in the UHF frequency band
UHF CB = 476 Mhz )
CFS VHF = 161 Mhz
Smoke could affect both.
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they do work, just with degraded reception, Wait till the radios turn digital..they will either work or not!
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Am I right in assuming that pagers no longer exist in this scenario - we just get a phone call?
I'm still a big fan of the pagers, given mobile phones occaisionally having issues. If you don't have your phone on you, you still have your pager. Not to mention your pagers still gives you incident details.
And believe it or not, Not everyone has a mobile