SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: Ryan on November 07, 2006, 05:20:39 PM
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Just to neaten up the forums since were getting into a dedicated rescue discussion in the new hypothetical and it is a worthy topid to discusss, we can discuss it here! :-)
How many dedicated resuce appliances are left?
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Like i said in the other thread is it possible to build a decent rescue & urban appliance without sacrificing either service.
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It seems to works well for the MFS with their rescue pumpers. I think you just need to create a bit more locker space to fit everything in.
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But are the MFS rescue/pumps heavy rescue?
Im thinking maybe 204 is the only heavy rescue? Am i wrong?
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sorry mate I got no idea. All I know is that the MFS/CFS RCR gear appliances seem to manage okay with both roles covered. IM not in an RCR brigade so dont know if there is any issues maybe someone in the know can fill in detail.
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If you want dedicated Heavy Rescue vehicles, then look at the new SES trucks. For example, Onkaparinga SES is part of Oakbank / Balhannah CFS brigade and have two SES vehicles in the shed.
Why re-create the egg when you have something designed with volunteer input that works well ??
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How many dedicated resuce appliances are left?
There are 9 dedicated rescue appliances in service (according to the CFS Promo unit website):
Aldinga Beach Rescue
Blackwood Rescue
Dublin Rescue
Kadina Rescue
Lobethal Rescue
Naracoorte Rescue
Stirling Rescue
Waikerie Rescue, and
Yankalilla Rescue
I'm a fan of dedicated rescue trucks. You can fit so much more in them, and your rescue resource will not end up being plumbed into a house for 3 hours...
(I note a case recently where Mt Barker had their Pumper and Rescue at a shed fire in Wistow, and needed to get a COQ from Meadows, in turn leaving Meadows with no rescue resource...)
I'm even going to suggest that smaller rescue trucks (not dual cab ones) are better, as you can respond the rescue truck immediately with 3 people,and respond a second truck for fire cover and extra crew. (Rather than having to wait a few extra minutes to get a full crew for a crewcab rescue truck)...
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Dont know how you would call BLACKWOOD a dedicated rescue as its part of the cafs appaliance,stand alone rescues are not everyones cup of tea. A pumper/rescue may work in some city areas where back up is closer but out of the CBD you have to travel just to get to the job and may be involved longer than a city rescue unit due to time it takes to reach the job. You also may have to wait half the day for police crash to arrive or what ever....
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Blinky, are you saying you like Pumper/Rescues, or dislike them?
Blackwood CAFS is a different truck to their rescue, and the rescue carries no water according the promo unit website. (http://fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=SACFS&Station_Code=BKWD)
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http://users.chariot.net.au/~blkwdcfs/appliances.htm
From the web site
Isuzu Dual-cab Rescue Appliance. It is fitted with a Darley mid-mount pump, hosereel, breathing apparatus and 1400 litres of water allowing it to perform normal firefighting duties but it also carries a Positive Pressure Fan for ventilation at structure fires and Hydraulic Heavy Rescue Equipment for extrication at motor vehicle accidents.
(http://users.chariot.net.au/~blkwdcfs/images/rescue%5B1%5D.jpg)
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Pumper/rescues have there place but I would have to say that my own view is for a dedicated rescue unit....
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Take a look at Blackwoods appliance. There is no way known that that applaince could it the same amount of stowage as a dedicated rescue applaince. I assume that by dedicated rescue appliance, we are talking one without water or a water pump.
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How many dedicated resuce appliances are left?
There are 9 dedicated rescue appliances in service (according to the CFS Promo unit website):
Aldinga Beach Rescue
Blackwood Rescue
Dublin Rescue
Kadina Rescue
Lobethal Rescue
Naracoorte Rescue
Stirling Rescue
Waikerie Rescue, and
Yankalilla Rescue
Ahm...when we refer to "Rescue" it is a callsign, not an absolute indication that is carries only rescue gear.....
Aldinga Beach, Kadina, Lobethal (actual an SES vehicle, but crewed by CFS), Stirling, Waikerie & Yank appliances, as far as I know, carry no water. Dublin Rescue is a Toyota Landcruiser Troupie.
Blackwood's appliance has the callsign "Blackwood Rescue" but carries water.
Barker Rescue carries water, as does Naracoorte Rescue, as well as their Rescue gear.......(and both are also medium pumpers....) Confused yet? :-)
Pip
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Pipster, CFS_Firey appears to have attempted to single out the dedicated rescue appliances, hence leaving Barker rescue out. Although he did miss Blackwood.
Where is the pump on Naracoorte rescue? Not trying to be smart or anything, I just cant understand where it is from the pictures of it on the Promo website? Is it hidden behind a locker?
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My bad...
I actually looked at the callsign and whether it had a "Water Capacity"... Blackwood and Naracoorte Rescues don't carry any water according to the promo site...
Thanks for clearing that up... Now back to the discussion.... We have dedicated rural fire fighting trucks, why can't we have dedicated Rescue trucks?
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from my understanding, Blackwood Rescue is a light pumper that carries there rescue gear, hence it is regularly tied up at grassfires, house fires, alarms, etc.... good management of a resource.
blackwood 24 (the CAFS unit) is the brigades second seperate appliance
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Naracoorte Rescue doesnt carry any water...well maybe drinking water.
Unless your trying to hide something from us bill?
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It really depends on what brigades are in your surrounding area. If you are the only brigade for a long while then a dedicated rescue truc soundes reasonable because it can cut the people out then leave the fire cover appliance to clean up. Bt if you are a brigade that has a lot of close brigades say Stirling they could use a rescue pumper because there are resources that can fill the gap.
plus brigades with Pumper rescues should be careful not to tie them up at fires that dont require rescue gear.
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would have thought its pretty much the opposite actually bittenyakka;
brigades with there neighbours further away would be better suited with a pumprescue as backup is further away, and thus firecover would be further away...
whereas if other resources are nice and close it would be quicker for a fire cover appliance to arrived also.
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medevac I think that BWD use the 24 for grass fires and alarms and BWD rescue is a backup or used for these calls when bwd 24 is out of area.
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yeh mate i understand that 24 is blakcwoods primary response for all fire/alarm responses, however rescue quite regularly goes as backup, and commits at these jobs, leaving there rescue area uncovered (especially since eden are no longer heavy rescue)...
chances are also high that if blackwood rescue is commited at a fire, then eden pumper will be also along with there RIG...
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But are the MFS rescue/pumps heavy rescue?
Im thinking maybe 204 is the only heavy rescue? Am i wrong?
Yes the are all the "9" trucks carry holmatro cutters spreaders, rams with the pump and two reels that are on a sliding shelf out of the rear locker.
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would have thought its pretty much the opposite actually bittenyakka;
brigades with there neighbours further away would be better suited with a pumprescue as backup is further away, and thus firecover would be further away...
whereas if other resources are nice and close it would be quicker for a fire cover appliance to arrived also.
This most likely depends on the brigades ability to crew mor than one truck
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Medevac I guess if an appliance is working at a job, you just call in the next resource.
If they were at a rescue and you had another rescue, you would call in your backup.
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I have to say that we can fit a fair amount of gear on our type 2. I mean one side is basically firefighting, "BA hoses confined space, chocks" And the other side has all rescue gear stowed.
I understand about not getting the truck tied up at a job. I surpose you do as good as you can with the resources available, and deal with the job in hand?
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yes Blckwood rescue is also a medium pumper with water and a pump and BA. The type 2's make an alright pump/rescue but it would help if cfs ordered the PUMP/RESCUE model which has a few extra bits like the front tool locker goes straight through for a stokes etc.
For info all Mfs 9's are medium rescues the same as most CFS rescue brigades. Plus they carry hazmat gear and now some USAR stuff.
I think almost all the dedicated resues will disappear, from that list only a few will remain.
Aldinga will stay
Blackwoods is a pump/rescue
Dublin are getting a 34p
Kadina i think are getting a 34p
Loby is SES
Stirling will be using their pumper
Waikerie ? will go eventually i assume
Yank is ses
Blinky what if your rescue is at a hazmat 3 hours away?
Pump/rescues are proven CFS just need to come up with a better truck for some brigades with above minimum rescue gear.
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What other extra bits does the type 2's have ?
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Aldinga will stay
Blackwoods is a pump/rescue
Dublin are getting a 34p
Kadina i think are getting a 34p
Loby is SES
Stirling will be using their pumper
Waikerie ? will go eventually i assume
Yank is ses
Blinky what if your rescue is at a hazmat 3 hours away?
yank rescue is a CFS appliance
re; naracoorte - i think we hammered that for a while ages ago... and came to the conclusion that for any prolonged incident outside of naracoorte they actually take the RCR gear off of the rescue truck and leave it on there 24...
not necessarily the best, but seemed to eb the only op[tion
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You can either specalise or comprimise. Of course if you specalise then it will cost more money.
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It really depends on what brigades are in your surrounding area. If you are the only brigade for a long while then a dedicated rescue truc soundes reasonable because it can cut the people out then leave the fire cover appliance to clean up. Bt if you are a brigade that has a lot of close brigades say Stirling they could use a rescue pumper because there are resources that can fill the gap.
plus brigades with Pumper rescues should be careful not to tie them up at fires that dont require rescue gear.
The only problem with saying "Oh throw it all on a pumper" is that a few RCR brigades, including Stirling, have a huge amount of gear, well beyond the prescribed minimum, that they carry - all of which has been used at a job. Trying to fit all of it onto an applance that is meant to also double as a primary pumping appliance, or god forbid, a 34P is just silly.
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We have a number of things we can do if our hazmat/rescue unit is needed at a prolong job. firstly if its a hazmat in other group area within the region we send a command car with members and what ever they need.As was the case at the job at tintinara last year. If its a rescue we tend to take the whole applinces with its gear as we will more than likely use our gear at a job and have done so before as we do carry alot more RCR gear than most others in the region. Its a hard call and for a number of years we have been asking for a second set of RCR gear for our pumper so as to cover our area when rescue is out of town....
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We have a number of things we can do if our hazmat/rescue unit is needed at a prolong job. firstly if its a hazmat in other group area within the region we send a command car with members and what ever they need.As was the case at the job at tintinara last year. If its a rescue we tend to take the whole applinces with its gear as we will more than likely use our gear at a job and have done so before as we do carry alot more RCR gear than most others in the region. Its a hard call and for a number of years we have been asking for a second set of RCR gear for our pumper so as to cover our area when rescue is out of town....
And being so far from backup rescue (40mins from Penola) i dont see why you should recieve a second set. Even if its a just a Combi Tool. Anything is better then nothing.
Although you need to get your pumper back first :wink:
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Thats insane that you don't have at the minimum an omni-tool and the bascis on your pumper. Why do you keep getting knocked back?
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I believe the rescue version of the type 2 also has a set up ready for rescue gear in the big drivers side locker might not fit our gear but would be easily adapted i assume.
Also you will find most large rescue brigades have pushed for a combi-tool on their second appliance but have been knocked back.
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Thats really odd. What reason do they give for knocking you back?
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Ah. Should have known. Im surprised the CFS seem so dead against decent thing like Omni Tools on pumpers.
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But if the choice is pay for a second set of rescue gear (in some form or another) or supply an appliance to a brigade that will actually start, and get the brigade to a call...which one is CFS going to pick...?
It is unfortunate, but just like other Government Departments, we only have a certain amount of money in our budget, and have to make the best use of what we get.....
Pip
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Your right there are brigades out there who should be rescue full stop that aren't so we should fix that first.
Big rescue brigades that do alot of jobs should have RIV though such as Barker. Look how many jobs they do that the rescue would go to.
Vehicle Accident / No Injury 20
Vehicle Accident Rescue 39
Vehicle Accident With Injuries 37
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Yes, but when the money is being spend of stupid "SAFETY FIRST, COME HOME SAFE" pins, for every volly, then the question must be asked.
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Yes, but when the money is being spend of stupid "SAFETY FIRST, COME HOME SAFE" pins, for every volly, then the question must be asked.
Only for those who have done burn over drill :wink:
Maybe refurbished appliances should become rescue units so then you can fit 6 people on them. Just take off the pump and maybe the tank and put on bigger lockers.
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5271Rescue where is your pumper at the moment, do you have a replacment?
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Yank SES only have a 4wd and a tinnie and only do basically what a Non USAR unit do in town, and why Kadina should/is getting a 34P when they have a 2000 24P and new 34 i don't know??, their RCR on 24P Hazmat on 34 heaps of other brigades are doing that???.
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Sorry swap the word Kadina with Waikerie
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Fair nuff then.
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our pumper is sitting up at moore's with rust in it,we have the region 24 for rural jobs and using our 34 for urban jobs,not sure but I did hear we may be getting the olf belair pumper once its fixed as moores cant look at our pumper till after xmas/new years....
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Wasnt the old Belair pumper knackered as well, or was it fixable? You might not want the other one back if it goes ok :-D
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Wasnt the old Belair pumper knackered as well, or was it fixable? You might not want the other one back if it goes ok :-D
i think belair was alright. it was eden pumper that was not in a gd way up at moores. shame, it was such a tank of a truck.
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i was under the impression that belair pumper was recently taken offline due to tank faults, whilst on duty at murray bridge
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I think it's about time you guys just pushed that pumper off a cliff blinky, i remember being at SAMFS engineering last time they fixed the rust.
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are you sure it was our pumper ???
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Come on fell'as back to the rescue discussion, keep it on track.
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How come most CFS dedicated rescues are old and look like they wern't built for the job where as some of the new ones in the CFA (oftern discussed on ozfire) are full size appliances that are purpouse built.
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Times change. Look at the current pumpers, and then look at the old Stirling Pumper or Burnside 32. I don't think that many were 'purpose built' as such. Many are just trucks adapted to the task.
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Our rescue is new and was made by skilled/cfa....
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Our rescue is new and was made by skilled/cfa....
But Billy your special :lol:
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the first and last tour that I did on that island there where two appliances that where from the mainland and you know what was still in the lockers???? RCR gear that had not been removed and it was covered in crap,now when we got back we looked up on the promo site and those brigades only had one set of rcr gear but had two appliances each.......
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Sorry to be off topic again.....
Yes blinky there was your pumper and Happy Valley pumper next to each other and they decided to fix yours and not happy valleys due to age even though it is now going to have a tanker put on it :?. They cut the chassis off at the cab and replaced the rest.
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sweet we may get in back soon.......
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It is difficult to build a all in one appliance - A dedicated rescue vehicle is the way to go in my opinion.
If a Fire Appliance with RCR and 4WD capability is required trade offs will have to happen. It also takes a lot of money.
Another dynamic is the range of RCR gear that can be used. Also the role (heavy rescue
If somebody could ever define a minimum and have it agree to across the board (lighting, generators, RCR gear, pump size, water capacity, seating capacity, 4WD or 2WD, foam - type and amount, crew numbers for tasks, size of vehicle - GVM and dimensions.)
I may be also a little bold and say egos and oppions drive a lot of this type of debate not reality and practicability. (That being said, I do not have an answer for the problem)
Good luck!
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But are the MFS rescue/pumps heavy rescue?
Im thinking maybe 204 is the only heavy rescue? Am i wrong?
204 is a support tender and has complete heavy rescue equipment as well as the Palfinger crane.
204 is the only support tender that MFS have,use to have one at St Marys but this was changed to a pump/rescue appliance about 6 years ago.
All MFS appliances 249,329,359,409,439,are heavy rescue and the new Scania's have a front mounted winch and stokes litters :wink:
I believe Lameroo have a dedicated rescue last time I saw it was a F350 ex police crash unit.
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All RCR gear is on Lameroo 34
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All RCR gear is on Lameroo 34
How long ago did they lose the rescue truck Bill
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It might have been around 1991 that the Rescue Unit left, and I think might have gone to Mt Pleasant after that...
Pip
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It will have plenty of k's on the clock then its the old Tango 85 Crash Truck :-D
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I remember the old days back in the late 80`s when any mva in the Adelaide Hills involved a fleet of vehicles being responded. MFS rescue appliance would be responded to any MVA`s within 40 km of their boundary as well as SAPOL road accident rescue unit and of course the local CFS/SES rescue appliance. Resulted in a bottle neck of vehicles at every prang. Took a while for the message to get accross that many CFS brigades by then had quite adequate rescue equipment and didnt need all that help from Adelaide. Of course government departments take time to make changes,lol.
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I was at a prang at Strathalbyn once and just mentioned to the OIC that St Marys were on their way as well.He said "Who asked for that"
AS per the RCRD...but a stop call was sent back very quickly to MFS :-D
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St Marys....................Strathalbyn, rightio! Bit of a distance MVA be all over by then, why not get a closer CFS RCR Brigade.
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or even a closer MFS brigade.
The reason the MFS can combine is because their trucks are lower and have much bigger locker space since they don't need wheel clearance like 4wd needs
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St Marys....................Strathalbyn, rightio! Bit of a distance MVA be all over by then, why not get a closer CFS RCR Brigade.
This was about 1990 when there was a lot of politics about rescue and who could do it.Police/Fire Service heavy rescue, and eventually common sense prevailed and we now have more rescue available than we did then :-D