SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Other Government Agencies => Topic started by: littlejohn on March 15, 2007, 09:38:46 AM
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Could some knowledgable person tell me; when fire towers are quoting a smoke sighting, do they use magnetic or true bearings?
Thanks!
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Research tells me that fire towers here use an alidade, so it is a non-magnetic reading and I guess they would be calibrated to true north. I'm not sure it makes much difference if it is magnetic or true north, as they whole lot is triangulated with bearings from other towers, and if there is a magnetic difference then it would only be a few hundred metres if that and when you're travelling to the site you'd just look for smoke within this zone of error anyway?
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Forestry Fire Tower allidades are aligned to grid north, thus allowing plotting on maps.
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Blue I would suspect they use grid north which isn't true north or magnetic north. Mainly because the turnout would be done based on a map.
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/reports/misc/north.html
But as you said it probably doesn't make that much difference as they would be lucky to get it to within 5km at the best of times.
Although not Forestry run, I think Mt Lofty tower is past its used by date. Back in the day when the hills population was small and communications slow it was useful.
These days there is a significant hills population and 90% carry mobile phones so the tower is both slower and less accurate. As a result the tower call in a lot of dust sightings or call the location in wrong. This splits the response that was going to the initial (correct) location called in by someone closer with a mobile phone 5 minutes before.
So its had its day and now I think its less then useful indeed just spewing out misinformation. Even if the info is correct Hicks Flat has been bitten by bad tower calls and now considers tower info questionable at best and always goes with the first lot of info from the local caller.
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There are many dust sightings here too, but the difference is that other towers can be asked if they see anything in that area, and from a different angle dust often can be identified as just that. Plus dust doesn't have a tendency to build like smoke plumes do... :wink:
I agree the fire tower isn't as usueful in the Adelaide Hills as it once was.
We've been to a 'fire' at night recently that was called in by someone on their mobile and it turned out to be a well-lit low-lying cloud :-D So misinformation comes from all sorts of sources. Just as long as they were intended as emergency calls and people aren't being malicious.
I'd hate for a bystander (or a fire tower) to hesitate before putting in a call because we were annoyed at well-meaning false alarms - always better to turn back crews that aren't needed than call for them once the fire is well and truly going.
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Hey littlejohn why dont you guys go and look at one of the towers,go up and have a look how they work would be a great training session. Mind you there not that far from penola....... But for the best view MOUNT LOFTY TOWER sure is the go.. Must go back up there again soon.
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Like hell. You won't get me up one of those.
Would love to see how they work, but my arse likes to stay close to the ground.
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I wonder if the bearing accuracy is compromised once they get a sway up in strong wind :lol:
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No you just drink more beer :lol:
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HIck - the tower still quite regularly calls in fires well before anyone on the ground notices them. I mean sure there is the odd dust sighting :lol: but there is also the FSA tower in Mt Crawford forest to confirm sightings as well.
But as you said it probably doesn't make that much difference as they would be lucky to get it to within 5km at the best of times
depending on the operator at the time, there are some very accurate calls.
the tower still has its place in the service i believe... but perhaps more training is required by some members to make the information more reliable all the time....
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How much would it cost to keep the tower running for a year?
As it is run by volunteers that would keep costs down.
Is the tower owned by the CFS? or Leased? What about the land? Rent?
Cost of the radio licences? Power?
If the tower is owned by CFS and all that costs is the power to run it and the lease on the GRN radios i wouldnt see it going past $5000 a year. Its probaly worth more then $5000 to the people of the hills?
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I believe the tower would be owned by national sparks, as it is on their land in Cleland. The rent would be $0 I reckon.
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I wonder what the forestry companies incur in fire prevention costs in the south east? (Rhetorical question)
8 or 9 fire towers (guessing the number) staffed by contractors?
A spotter plain on fire ban days?
Bomber plane?
The question marks are becuase I don't know if I'm anywhere near the mark. But all these resources benefit more than just forestry land.
The towers seem pretty good at triangulating fires in the flat SE. Between them & the spotter, most fires get picked up fairly quickly.
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But i guess the way they justify it is by saying without these resources Forestry SA would go broke because of the losses incurred due to fire damage.
I can think of 8 towers but i might be missing some
Mt Gambier
Penola North
Comaum
Mt Edward
Mt Benson
Mt Burr
The Bluff
Furner
There isnt many areas these towers cant see which is handy.
Then there is the cost of the Firekings, staff, spotter plane etc etc.
Would be worth millions but could save billions!
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And more importantly Cam could save lives....
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You have to admirer the staff/ volunteers that sit in these towers over summer they do a great job,sometimes they are isolated work alone and must have great patients to sit there all day.. I have been up a few towers over the years and the guys and girls that work them are always happy to see a new face or show of there work. Its not always easy and if you don't mind working at heights and the tower swaying it could be a great job over summer...
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And more importantly Cam could save lives....
Yeah, a nice spin-off for the community from forest companies trying to save plantations :lol:
I think there is a wider collective (which includes CFS) that supports the development of, and access to, forest company resources for fire fighting. A small percentage is also supported by Treasury. So a number of organisations must realise the wider benefit.
I admire anyone who can sit for many long hours in a fire tower, I think I'll pass. It'd be like those pole sitters they used to have at Glenelg. But it's not like you can curl up for a kip or get totally engrossed in a good novel - you have to be on your toes. I wonder how long it took Bluff Tower to see the recent fire just down the hill from them - and how long they waited around up there as it moved up the slope toward them :-P :-o
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Think it was a case of
"Fire Number 1 Bearing **** Km less than 1 and im outta here!"
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When the tender for Bluff Tower comes up again im gonna apply for it cause i've been up in that tower and its alot better than those towers such as Mount Burr,Mount Edward and Penola North as its closer to the ground :-D
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What do you mean tender robert34?
As far as i know it is owned by Forestry SA and is operated by Forestry SA employees.
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Tenders for running some of the Foresty Towers appeared in various newspapers some time ago.....I reckon it has come up a few times over the last few years.....
Pip
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Thats right pip the tender means someone to run the fire tower during fire season :-)
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well robert you will be safe on one side of the bluff for a few years if you did get that job.......
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Im hoping the job does come up soon Blinky :wink: although i gotta balance it out with my CFS work cause once you spot a fire theres no leaving the tower to respond :-)
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It's hard to know how you would be able to undertake much, if any CFS work through the fire season Robert.
My very vague understanding is that the towers are manned by contractors, who no doubt have to be up there every day over a certain fire danger level (moderate? high?), which equates to most of the fire season.
You'd have to ensure that any CFS jobs you attended wouldn't affect your ability to man the tower, and as all the good ones this year happened through the day (the ones I can remember anyway), you'd not get much hands on action.
Mind you, it's an important job and a single tower person can have a hell of a lot more influence on a fire than a single fire fighter.
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Most of the fires the towers call in have already been rung in by people on mobiles already..
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littlejohn Forestry SA every so often puts up the contracts for each fire tower in the Green Triangle Region for tender meaning anyone who wants to sit in a box and watch out for fires then report them in via radio can apply for the contract
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Most of the fires the towers call in have already been rung in by people on mobiles already..
I would question that :? I often hear traffic on Forestry's GRN channel and the call go to CFS well before there is a page sent or any traffic is heard from region 5. But I guess there is also a lag between a 000 call and response.
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Not sure what the go was this year but the fire towers would report the sighting to saforest office then they would radio SHQ(CFS) rather than contact the local CFS(RHQ)...
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Everytime a fire was spotted by one or more of the towers SE Forestry Base will send spotter aircraft to that location to confirm if there was anything there
Or if the fire has already been reported by a member of the public then South East Forestry Base activates an Automatic Dispatch for Mount Gambier,Mount Burr and Penola 'Nangwarry' forest bases as well as the bombers meaning an all out fire response..... if theres a stop call then SE Forestry Base cancels the Auto Dispatch allowing appliances to either return to their depots or standby locations
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Ath, are you referring to SE towers, or Adelaide hills?
I agree with Blue - a lot of responses down here can be tracked through from FSA towers spotting the fire, reporting to their HQ who triangulate and then report to CFS SOC. For us it's an exception to get a telephone call first, and with only about two bumps on the landscape, the tower's accuracy is pretty good.
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Everytime a fire was spotted by one or more of the towers SE Forestry Base will send spotter aircraft to that location to confirm if there was anything there
Or if the fire has already been reported by a member of the public then South East Forestry Base activates an Automatic Dispatch for Mount Gambier,Mount Burr and Penola 'Nangwarry' forest bases as well as the bombers meaning an all out fire response..... if theres a stop call then SE Forestry Base cancels the Auto Dispatch allowing appliances to either return to their depots or standby locations
But only if there is a risk to plantation :-D
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Most of the fires the towers call in have already been rung in by people on mobiles already..
dunno where ya pulled that from. sure some have already been called in, but a helluva lot havent...
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Everytime a fire was spotted by one or more of the towers SE Forestry Base will send spotter aircraft to that location to confirm if there was anything there
Or if the fire has already been reported by a member of the public then South East Forestry Base activates an Automatic Dispatch for Mount Gambier,Mount Burr and Penola 'Nangwarry' forest bases as well as the bombers meaning an all out fire response..... if theres a stop call then SE Forestry Base cancels the Auto Dispatch allowing appliances to either return to their depots or standby locations
But only if there is a risk to plantation :-D
Not necessarily Blue cause all the grass fires that Forestry SA respond to along with CFS the Automatic Dispatch system still applies regardless of it being near plantations or not :wink:
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Everytime a fire was spotted by one or more of the towers SE Forestry Base will send spotter aircraft to that location to confirm if there was anything there
Or if the fire has already been reported by a member of the public then South East Forestry Base activates an Automatic Dispatch for Mount Gambier,Mount Burr and Penola 'Nangwarry' forest bases as well as the bombers meaning an all out fire response..... if theres a stop call then SE Forestry Base cancels the Auto Dispatch allowing appliances to either return to their depots or standby locations
But only if there is a risk to plantation :-D
Not necessarily Blue cause all the grass fires that Forestry SA respond to along with CFS the Automatic Dispatch system still applies regardless of it being near plantations or not :wink:
Well actually there aint much in the south east that isn't near a ForestrySA plantation, so my comment still holds :-D
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what do classify as near?
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Near = getting-nervous-can-see-the-smoke-from-the-plantation :lol:
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Guess this affects the hills more so than the SE. Wonder what the deal is. I'm sure there will be more in the media about it.
http://www.forestry.sa.gov.au/MediaReleases/Mount_Crawford_Fire_Tower.pdf (http://www.forestry.sa.gov.au/MediaReleases/Mount_Crawford_Fire_Tower.pdf)
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The company i work for put in to Mann the south east fire towers for two years but they missed out on the contract Thank god for that would have meant more work for me...Fire towers have there place and it was not long ago that CFS where looking at closing down the MT lofty tower...Fire tower spotters are by far the best way of finding out a location of a forest/scrub/grass fire with in that area..To say that the public will call it in well ye they might once its knocking on their back door step...Or if you are in a area where there is high population and people keep an eye on what is going on in life...
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Fire tower spotters are by far the best way of finding out a location of a forest/scrub/grass fire with in that area..To say that the public will call it in well ye they might once its knocking on their back door step...Or if you are in a area where there is high population and people keep an eye on what is going on in life...
Maybe where you live and maybe in the 1800's but not around Mt Lofty and not in 2008.
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