SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: CFS_Firey on February 17, 2009, 03:04:38 PM
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Well it's a hot topic at the moment, so why not discuss it here?
This thread is about your own bushfire action plans. Who's staying, and who's going early? The CFS members could well be off on a truck somewhere, but what's the plan for your family?
My plan is to stay and defend. Apart from the minor issue of wanting a house to live in, it'd be way too inconvenient to be 'leaving early' for most of the summer.
What are you doing?
If you read this thread and are seeking expert advice on your bush fire plan - You must seek advice from the relevant fire authorities. Do Not take this thread as expert advice or policy. It is internet discussion on a forum and can not be relied upon. It may be inaccurate and will only represent an opinion as posted by individuals.
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stay n defend 4 sure :wink:
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CFS Firey are you staying and defending after your pager has gone off and your on the truck? :-D :-P
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It's a very hard call and it would have to depend on the conditions of the day and from what I have seen and spoken to members from CFA If you don't have to be there get out early and stay out. You can have all the gear that you like to try and save your home but if the conditions are against you then there is not much that you can do but Go early...you can always replace your home but you can not replace love one's..
I am sure that we may see some change to this stay or go once the ROYAL COMMISION is over....
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It's a very hard call and it would have to depend on the conditions of the day...
Isn't that exactly the attitude that's killed people in Victoria? If you're only going to make the decision to stay at the last minute, there's no way you can prepare your property in time...
I am sure that we may see some change to this stay or go once the ROYAL COMMISION is over....
What is there to change? "Stay and defend, or leave REALLY early"? or "fend for yourself, authorities take no responsibility"?
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Should we get real severe fire weather conditions like last month in 2010 and a large fire happens just as much as it would be tempting to respond when the pager sounds i'd rather stay behind and defend my house and parents house
If money permits later this year i'll be stocking up on fire equipment ready for summer 2009/2010 so if something happens at least i'll be prepared... i'd be setting up my equipment prior to the bad fire day
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I dont think its fair to comment on what the attiude of those in victoria did or did not do.....At the end of the day if your going to go do it early and if your going to stay make sure you have a safe place to fall back too just in case your bushfire plan does not work.....
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Started the discussion with the kids to ensure they knew what to do. Not sure if we got through to them, but will keep trying.
Our main concern is that they drive through the Adelaide Hills & Fleurieu Peninsula areas regularly seeing friends, attending activities, etc.
Correct me if I am wrong please, but we are stating:
* if they are driving & they see smoke in the area. Turn around & go back to clear air.
* change radio to 891 AM.
* work out your exact location using landmarks you can see. Estimate distance since last town & where you are heading towards.
* Call 112 on the mobile & give the smoke sighting. Gain more information on action you should take.
* Call myself or my wife on the mobile telephone.
* if smoke inhibits visability, stop & find the nearest house/building you can. Obtain more information from the householder. Shelter & call us on mobile.
* if you see flame, smoke rising due to heat or feel heat. Stop in clear area off roadway, headlights on. Use woolen blankets, first-aid kit, torch & water that are in the back of the car. Down on car floor covered. Monitor situation. Use collapsible safety sign if needed.
If they are home alone & they see smoke. We live in the suburbs, but with large grass areas a few blocks away. So smoke more than fire is the main danger. The plan is for them to stay inside, close windows & call us.
God, I hope they never need to use this.
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I would say that is pretty much perfect information for you to be giving your "kids"
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Well on that bad Saturday i was trying to tell my folks that going and seeing a movie was a good idea. But then mum said she would spend the whole day worrying about me.
Our plan has always been stay and defend but in the last couple of seasons i am really trying to suggest that my family leave early so i don;t have to worry about them at all and can just get on with the job at hand.
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I have some excellent firefighting equipment in the shed, it would have to be a real shockingly bad fire that would catch me out!.............That is if I was at home to defend it, my plan is set in concrete, the family visits the the outlaws for the day, I play fireman for the day.
The last thing I want to be worrying about is my family at "home", without the family in it, its just a "house" and houses can be replaced.
As a fireman it would have to be your worst nightmare to have your family injured or worse, whilst you were away fighting someone elses fire, knowing that if you were at home, the result may have been different!
So if ever I move down to the swamp, I will have some very near new firefighting equipment for sale, never likely to be used in anger by me!
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We live in one of the apparently undefendable subrubs listed in the Advertiser... on a high fire danger day we have a heavy pumper parked out the front with the foam tanks full and truck full of diesel...
In the morning of cause we check that the tank supply we have is flowing properly and all PPE is ready to go if needed.
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I am sure that we may see some change to this stay or go once the ROYAL COMMISION is over....
I hope we see the changes before the Royal Commission. This could take years for the final outcome.
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Started the discussion with the kids to ensure they knew what to do.
good stuff - just prewarn them that the mobile might not work (you said they drive all over the hills and fleurieu).
our policy was always 'stay and defend' but having young kids (3 and 1.5) changed that somewhat. If I am not going to be around my wife makes the decision in the morning and on some bad days so far has camped out for the day at her parents place in town. We also have neighbours with a very well prepared house that they can (and have once so far) go to.
If I am home we stay, but the big danger is my brigade gets called to a fire not in our immediate area but whilst away at that it escalates or more fires start and then our place is threatened (which is what happened in ash wednesday 1 - 1980).
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I am sure that we may see some change to this stay or go once the ROYAL COMMISION is over....
I hope we see the changes before the Royal Commission. This could take years for the final outcome.
What other possible options are there? Be prepared and face the danger or go before any danger.....I can't see any other sensible option
Pip
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I dont think its fair to comment on what the attiude of those in victoria did or did not do.....At the end of the day if your going to go do it early and if your going to stay make sure you have a safe place to fall back too just in case your bushfire plan does not work.....
I think this is dangerous advice. Fire agencies warn specifically against last minute travel. By planning a fall back point are you not saying if all else fails get in your car. If that is what you mean it is bad advice.
Simply put if people plan to stay and defend then they need to be committed to the defence. That means a well prepared property that can in fact be defended. The people need to be mentally prepared and capable of coping with the fire fronts impact and any ember attack.
Under no circumstance would I ever recommend late or last minute evacuation. Inside a well prepared home is a safer refuge than a last minute frantic dash in a car.
If you read this thread and are seeking expert advice on your bush fire plan - You must seek advice from the relevant fire authorities. Do Not take this thread as expert advice or policy. It is internet discussion on a forum and can not be relied upon. It may be innacurate and will only represent an opinion as posted by individuals.
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I don't think the stay or go will change, but the stay option will need to be looked at.
Have a safe area (shelter)
Better houses to stay in
More planning on what to do when you stay
The go option
More information leave early
There is heaps of options to improve what we have. Why wait for the ROYAL COMMISION that will take a few years. Changes can be made NOW !
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But isn't this what we have now ?
It would appear to me that there is nothing wrong with the stay or go message...just trying to get people to understand / comprehend what is actually means....
The problem is not the message, but how to get it across to those who need to understand and then do it!
Pip
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I don't think most people understand the message.
Stay needs more information on how to defend and what will happen when you stay.
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if you are going to stay you need to be 100% sure that you can do it its no good running at the last min or getting into your car and taking off down the road by that time its too late. I would like to see homes that are built in high risk area's have a underground bunker where people can fall back to if they can not deal with the situation. The stay or go message needs to have more information in it,it needs to be explaned to the public in a better way and this can be done by community meetings.
I also think that public needs to understand that there are not enough fire trucks or bombers around to protect you all,I know of a number of hill's people who think that the skycrane will save them but we all know that is not true...
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I dont think its fair to comment on what the attiude of those in victoria did or did not do.....At the end of the day if your going to go do it early and if your going to stay make sure you have a safe place to fall back too just in case your bushfire plan does not work.....
We all sit around here wondering why and how the general public cannot understand our "Simple" Stay or Go message. Well, here is the reason. One of our own cannot get his head around it. God forbid you've given this or similar advice to the public - It is incredibly dangerous advice. It's what killed hundreds in Victoria. Its wishy washy and half-arsed. Telling people to build themselves bunkers sounds good, up until the time when the fire roars past, consumes the oxygen from the little hideyhole and they die.
As firies we can at least give our Bushfire Action Plans more specific criteria as to what to do when. Want to stay 99% of the time, but if the temp is over 40, or the FDI over 100, you leave early? Good.
Now that that little rant is over, I have told my parents in their shockingly badly prepared house that they should be going, as on a bad day, the house is as good as gone. I however, will be at the station, on a truck.
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Telling people to build themselves bunkers sounds good, up until the time when the fire roars past, consumes the oxygen from the little hideyhole and they die.
I made reference in another thread about CFS shed folk-lore and the dangers of the untrained making comments.....never more appropriate than here....
will a fire suck the air out of your truck as u cower on a crew deck? does it suck the air out of a house you chose to stay in??...no, of course it wont, what a ridiculous statement, if it did IT WOULD GO OUT!!...remember that fire polygon thingy they teach u in BFF1. There is a constant resupply of oxygen laden air generated by either the prevailing wind, or through mechanical turbulance from heated colums of air rising and being replaced at ground level
Sheltering in a house cellar might give u a few concerns as the house burns on top of you, but that is more to do with mechanical ventilation then structural collapse than oxygen starvation
As I said......let the experts spert.....and let the public get facts....not folk-lore
Myth busted, I'd say Jamie
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lol
You forgot the house explodes
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Sheltering in a house cellar might give u a few concerns as the house burns on top of you, but that is more to do with mechanical ventilation then structural collapse than oxygen starvation
Seen and heard of a few 'bunkers' built under houses. Better regarded as a "cellar".
Trouble is that instead of just a 20 or 30 minute heat pulse, they have to have air &
insulation to withstand 1 or 2 hours until the house goes out. Even then, they are
buried under a pile of hot ashes, dutch oven style, possibly for days (it's been 12
days now & they still haven't checked every destroyed house.)
Methinks a cellar of any sort should be regarded like any other room - aim to be out
of it before the house starts collapsing. Anyway, CFS advice regarding sheltering in
houses is not to hunker down in a room, but to actively patrol the interior, putting
out interior ignitions early.
While on the subject of bunkers & shelters, there was a bloke on the wireless the
other day who, in the early '90s, came up with a shelter made from the same sort of
material as the space shuttle heat tiles. Tested in a 1200C oven, the interior
rose <2degC after 30 mins.
Tested in a live fire gas prop appliance mock-up, where the shelter is the water
tank, a crew of 4 were able to enter it in 14 seconds. After 20 minutes of direct
flame inpingement, the crew were complaining the water was "cold & can we get out
now please?" Internal air temp had risen 2C & water temp by 0.5C.
Said the tank shelter was reviewed by the CFA & rejected because "It would give
crews a false sense of security".
cheers
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There have been many fire/security bunkers over the years after ASH WED 1983 and some have been passed by CSIRO and have been tested to with stand very high temps... In my old CFA brigade area in the hill's just outside of melbourne a number of the underground bunkers have saved local people these bunkers are fitted with air masks like CABA. The one thing that i did hear on ABC radio the other day was that the goverment are looking at community bunkers not only for bushfires but also any other community emergency's that do occur. There has been some very interesting ideas on radio and Tv and most of these came out after ASH WED and now they are back again.
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lol
You forgot the house explodes
oh...u mean like hollywood cars?
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The Salvos have lots of bunkers strategically located around Australia, maybe we could use them..................Oh sorry forgot, thats were they keep their SPAM supplies! :-D
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I was thinking about the Hollywood cars as well
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Telling people to build themselves bunkers sounds good, up until the time when the fire roars past, consumes the oxygen from the little hideyhole and they die.
I made reference in another thread about CFS shed folk-lore and the dangers of the untrained making comments.....never more appropriate than here....
Perhaps too much time spent reading WWII flame thrower bunker busting techniques on my part.. ;)
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I am sure that we may see some change to this stay or go once the ROYAL COMMISION is over....
I hope we see the changes before the Royal Commission. This could take years for the final outcome.
Save yourself some time & read the 1939 Stretton Royal Commission report.
Sweet Fanny Adams has been done by successive governments along the advice of that
report in 70 years. Same will happen with this one.
EP fire report only saw action because CFS carried the can, not govt. policy.
Therefore no risk to the city green vote.
Trying to be positive about it.
AJ
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I think the biggest thing that people don't understand about stay or go is that it is really refering to a well set up house.
People seem to think that if they wave a garden hose around and dampen everything down that it will be okay to stay, and of course the fire truck will be parked outside there house (though I think this year that thought will actually begin to change - then again maybe not judging on some conversation my sister had up at Sprinton with locals who couldn't understand why she would not be staying - lets say transportable, surrounded by lots of large gum trees, no cleared area around the house duh!)
We wont be staying as our house used to be transportable so is up off the ground so is the number one reason for not staying!! Also next door (we live in Penola) actually on all sides of us are houses with real interesting cocktail mixes in their shed so would be pretty much expecting them to go up with a bang.
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The house im renting sits on a block which has a eucalyptus tree right out the back and a mix of blue gum and other natives along the street even though this may seem like a huge fire hazard theres a positive
The block has a wide open space which runs along side of the house which can double as a fire break if the grass is cut plus it makes a good area to attack embers that may cause spot fires
I've also got access to a fire plug which is clearly marked on the road right out front of my house so a standpipe and hose can be set up if need be
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The house im renting sits on a block which has a eucalyptus tree right out the back and a mix of blue gum and other natives along the street even though this may seem like a huge fire hazard theres a positive
The block has a wide open space which runs along side of the house which can double as a fire break if the grass is cut plus it makes a good area to attack embers that may cause spot fires
I've also got access to a fire plug which is clearly marked on the road right out front of my house so a standpipe and hose can be set up if need be
Another positive Robert, is if your flying a kite in your backyard, the eucalyptus tree will stop it from falling to the ground and getting broken, also from then on you will always know where your kite is :-D
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in other words, if you are renting get out early