SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SAAS => Topic started by: CFS_Firey on August 29, 2006, 05:30:49 PM
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Someone mentioned in another thread that the fire service wouldn't ever be responded to a medical case without SAAS attending first. This made me wonder what SAAS do when they're overloaded and have too many cases...
For example, if it's a really hot day and old people start having heart attacks... Would they ever think about responding SAPOL or C/MFS, or would they just respond the next closest Ambulance resource (Even if that's 30 mins away)?
:?
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When SAAS have cases going, for extended times, they will organise what would be considered to fire service as COQ - Back fill those stations with other units (unless volunteer), or, they will recall crews - eg - regional fulltime stations.
In a scenario like you mentioned, they would clear cases or a lower cat. and divert, or indeed, respond nearest resource.
Metro response, a car would clear from a lower Cat case, in regional areas yes, sometimes waiting that long is how long it takes.. The chance one takes when they live out of metropolitis.
No, fire service would not get responded to a report of heart attack, they are not trained in the protocols to deal with it, the nearest Ambulance would get the call.
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Fair enough.... By clearing cases do you mean leave the scene of an incident as soon as they are no longer required?
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Fair enough.... By clearing cases do you mean leave the scene of an incident as soon as they are no longer required?
Meaning if they are enroute to say, a Cat 4 Hospital transfer, they will clear that case and re-route to the Cat 1/2 incident. As the hospital transfer is of a lower category, and not as important.
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No, fire service would not get responded to a report of heart attack, they are not trained in the protocols to deal with it, the nearest Ambulance would get the call.
someone wasnt watching the decoder yesterday :wink:
its funny how these discussion pop up at the most interesting of times...
yesterday afternoon ambos had several high category cases down near Mt gambier, this resulted in Yahl and Mt Gambier MFS being responded to an adress in Mt Gambier for
"cardiac arrest, first responder and patient lift required - priority one" (if i remember correctly)
ambos had to split crews to run buses with one saas officer on board, they then used fire crews as extra man power and drivers...
^^but that was an extreme case...
in normal situations, SAAS would most likely recall crews and cancel cat5s and 6s
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Yep... missed that..
Opens a huge kettle of fish though !! What is classified as a first responder? What training do they have? What are they going to do? Do they know what they are going to encounter? etc etc..
Ive often heard of firerys driving the bus', but never responded because SAAS were busy..
Must have been one of those days....
:)
*Happy to admit I was wrong on this point..*
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to be honest i dont believe there is really that much coverage down that way... therfore easy to overload em...
i believe there is a 'working party' of sorts looking into the possibility of fire services beign used as first responders in area...
dont forget that salt creek region 3 are already first responders for the immediate area
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Wouldnt it be about time to train every brigade on how to use medical equipment such as heart starters and medical oxygen tanks so in the event of SAAS being busy like they were yesterday in Mount Gambier and an medical emergency occurs the closest brigade can be paged as first responders :-)
If they did offer that kinda training down here for brigades i would jump at the chance to do it :-D as my dad has medical problems and those skills would come in handy
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A few brigades already carry the Oxi Viva equipment and there has been talk of some brigades getting Heart Start machines that are completely automated where all they have to do is put the dots on the person and the machine pretty much does everything else.
One of my mates was a Volunteer AO and did a transfer to FMC one morning and because the metro crews were that stretched they ended up spending nearly 10 hrs in the metro area running cat 1,2,and 3 jobs.
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Robert, the problem with training people in Oxygen resus and external de-fibrillation, is that the skills need to be updated on a yearly basis (that is, you have to do a refresher course very year).
That's more time commitment for volunteers, and a lot of money. Instead, I can see strategic brigades getting the training - in areas where SAAS are far away, or under-resourced...
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You can do a defib course cant you at St John or Red Cross?
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although we are not first responders, our group carry O2 sets on all our appliances and firies are trained in 'administer oxygen in an emergency situation' by st john....
last time i did the re-acred this also included the use of AEDs, allthough we dont carry them. so there are brigades out there with some of the gear and training...
although these O2 sets were purchased with firefighter safety in mind more than anything
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We used to get alot of MVA/RCR jobs south of Meningie (until they made the speed 100 and put in passing lanes)where the ambulance would be responded, Salt Creek R3 as first response and Meningie CFS as fire tender. In most cases Salt Creek would be doing their first aid bit (including admin. O2 and/or AED) long before SAAS arrived from Meningie. But in saying that Salt Creek never get called to a first response unless an Ambulance has been dispatcehd first.
Re the AED, this is a requirement for BA instructors so most of them should have it - there are alot of BA instructors out there and although their particular Brigade may not carry the equipment they may be able to assist SAAS where required as they have the training (in more rural areas anyway).
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i understand a brigade in sturt group is trialling auto defib on their rescue appliances??? Also in the time I have been in Naracoorte the brigade as been involved in a couple of resus cases where ambos have been there for sometime and need a hand to get patient back to some rhyme and scoop and go. You can do a auto defib course with st johns and you have to renew it yearly,its only a matter of time and you will see some CFS brigades that have the mann power and are willing to get involved paged to do first responder calls. It has worked well In Victoria so much so that more CFA brigades are getting the training and the gear to have on the appliance.
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The situation that happened in the Mount the other day was due to a high amount of cat2 response's in a short period of time(5 minutes)
We were turned out priority one to a cardiac condition and were met on scene by IC paramedic (I wasn't aware of Yahl being responded there as they didn't turn up) and assisted them as well supplying a driver for another case.
All our crew have done advanced resus and oxygen therapy which obviously is handy in these situations.
Keep in mind these calls don't happen everyday but it is better to have someone help out (fire service) if the ambo's get caught short.
Will be interesting if we do eventually get an auto defibrillator though!!
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I would imagine the Yahl Vollies probaly looked at the address on the pager - thought it was a mistake (As that is well into MFS Territory) and went back to what they were doing.
Camo
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The CFA are currently rolling out a trial of vollies going to CAT 1 cases, basically any unresponsive and non breathing patient will get a CFA first responder as well as an ambo in certain areas. This will mainly be in areas where the ambulance response times are a bit long and CFA vollies are nearby.
There is still a bit of tooing a froing going on as to how it will work but a number of brigades are about to be put on the trial.
From what i understand only vollies that want to do it will have to, their is a bit of training involved and it requires six monthly refreshers.
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the yankee's do this, respond to medical runs.
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Funny how we always follow what the yankees do??? But tell me how many people or brigades would want to take this on?? I would put my hand up as its only a better service that we would provide to teh community..remember you dont have to do it if you dont want to... CFA PERM/vol stations in metro areas have been doing this for some 8 years now....
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Re the AED, this is a requirement for BA instructors so most of them should have it - there are alot of BA instructors out there and although their particular Brigade may not carry the equipment they may be able to assist SAAS where required as they have the training (in more rural areas anyway).
unfortunatwely i dont think the training for AEDs is anywhere near what is required to work the SAAS "Heart Starters"... but its a step in the right direction anyway...
blinky - i heard a rumour a while back also that Blackwood Brigade were all being put through the training... mind you, everybody who refreshes there Advanced Resus obtains that accreditation anywho...
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i heard a rumour a while back also that Blackwood Brigade were all being put through the training
Are Blackwood actually carrying an AED, I heard a brigade in the group was, can anyone confirm it??
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I would imagine the Yahl Vollies probaly looked at the address on the pager - thought it was a mistake (As that is well into MFS Territory) and went back to what they were doing.
Camo
I'm sure someone would have confirmed :wink:
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The Mt Gambier call was actually a boundary one so thats why CFS were also called. MFS was on scene pretty quickly and SAAS were already there so CFS was stop called via radio.
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There's a lot more to treating a heart attack then just giving O2 and using an AED. There are also different degrees of heart attack which require different types of treatment. Unless all CFS, MFS and SES crews are going to start carrying drugs and a textbook around with a monitor, there is no point to sending these crews to a heart attack case unless SAAS is already in attendance.
There are contingency plans in place for logistical issues. If worst comes to worst, they can always get a firey or rescuer to drive the ambulance while the ambos treat the patient in the back on the way.
Worst case scenario arises in the metro area, they could always call EMT :evil:
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The Mt Gambier call was actually a boundary one so thats why CFS were also called. MFS was on scene pretty quickly and SAAS were already there so CFS was stop called via radio.
Boundary? Lorikeet is the border? Oh well Thought it was a bit further out then that.
Doesnt you area include the Barn Palais? Nah Just kidding
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i heard a rumour a while back also that Blackwood Brigade were all being put through the training
Are Blackwood actually carrying an AED, I heard a brigade in the group was, can anyone confirm it??
thats affirmitive.
although i highly doubt it will ever get used... around here, we either get the call half an hour after SAAS or not at all....
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You are correct there is more to a heart case than just o2 and CBR and I would say that should the fire service follow those steps our roll would be to provide basic help till SAAS arrive but in remote areas you may find a brigade will be trained in some drug admin to the patient due to the distance of the job....Its not rocket science its basic life support.
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A while back SAAS approached MFS with the idea of them being first responders similar to how paramedics in US do.Apparently when asked how much extra they would get for doing it the answer was nothing,so based on all the risks involved they were turned down flat.
However the MFB have taken up the challenge with VIC ambos and seems to be working well.
CFS/MFS can always be called if due to overload and a life threat situation exists similar to what happened at Mount Gambier the other week which was talked about in another thread,so when the call comes we do what we do best...serve our community :-D
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CFA/MFB are all doing medical calls with vic ambos and have done for a number of years and its working well,they are just about to start a trial in some country areas where there is little or no ambo's...
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who said we dont help SAAS??? lol...
1919416 21:43:32 16-09-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: MANNUM RESPOND TO MANNUM AMBULANCE STATION - 2 CREW MEMBERS REQUIRED TO ASSIST SAAS; DRIVER AND BASIC FIRST-AIDER < 16/09/2006 21:43:18
1916012 21:33:07 16-09-06 MM181 Cat3 Lot 127 Purnong Rd, Purnong VIOLENCE AT SCENE
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Robert, the problem with training people in Oxygen resus and external de-fibrillation, is that the skills need to be updated on a yearly basis (that is, you have to do a refresher course very year).
That's more time commitment for volunteers, and a lot of money. Instead, I can see strategic brigades getting the training - in areas where SAAS are far away, or under-resourced...
Despite people having training in these areas through the advanced resus courses offered, I've talked to an amazing number of people who have had the training who don't understand exceptions in which things like Oxyviva kits shouldnt' be used. I can see the day someone comes across a CO2 retainer, and the following dramas once people with basic training in advanced resus try to administer 02 at litres a minute...
Unless more comprehensive training is offered, I can't see responding C/MFS being very sucessful as anything other than a last resort.
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Despite people having training in these areas through the advanced resus courses offered, I've talked to an amazing number of people who have had the training who don't understand exceptions in which things like Oxyviva kits shouldnt' be used. I can see the day someone comes across a CO2 retainer, and the following dramas once people with basic training in advanced resus try to administer 02 at litres a minute...
Unless more comprehensive training is offered, I can't see responding C/MFS being very sucessful as anything other than a last resort.
Thats a terribly small percentage of people who would have that issue. The training that is currently provided is far more along the lines of assisting ambos, or brief use at an incident rather than to be responded soley for that reason.
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CFS/MFS/SES who ever if they are trained in advance resus are there for life threatening cases where they are the only help available. As you would notice in your training on this they say you are trained in it because it is better to do something then stand there with your finger up your bum and let someone die. we are not ambos but if we have to do the job and we are trained just get on and do it.
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OXYVIVA every appliance should have one
All MFS appliances do, so why are we continually knocked back for a life saving device not only for the public but us FIREYS. :x
An Ambulance wont always reach you in TEN MINUTES :-o
Anyone else having trouble convincing the powers to be for grant approval for these lifesaving devices?
Sick of hearing the NOT STANDARD STOWAGE argument :roll:
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The RCR brigades on the Flurieu are meant to be getting them at some stage for the Appliances carrying RCR equipment but in the couple hundred prangs i've been to probably only once or twice it would have been useful, but trying to convince the powers that they'd be more useful on the rural appliances is also going on deaf ears???
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Until such time as the desk jockeys and pen pushers who decide emergency service budgets are actually out there doing our work we will continue to be knocked back for this equipment because "an ambulance will be on its way". I think these people are living in a dreamworld if they think we will always get a timely response from an ambulance service that is having major crewing issues.
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The issue of Oxygen Therapy gear on appliances has now gone to the Strategic Leadership Group for discussion.
Whatever they say will be the go for the state, it's no longer in the hands of one Regional Commander.
Stay tuned.
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about time, but how long is a piece of string
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twice as long as from one end to the middle