SA Firefighter
Technical Discussion => Hypotheticals => Topic started by: Camo on July 26, 2006, 06:18:54 PM
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Gday Folks,
Bit bored so i thought i would make up a hyperthetical incident and get everyone to give their thoughts on how they would handle it.
House Fire - 2 Story, 3 Trapped Occupants, Left hand side of house fully involved (Top and Bottom Story), Entry on the right side at the top and centre back and front on bottom story.
Crew/Trucks Available - 1 x Type 2 Pumper with 4 x CABA, 2 x Rural 34's With 2 x CABA sets each & 1 x 14 No CABA. Each truck has a crew of 5 with everyone BA trained (14 is a new mitsi canter dualcab). Mains water is available but is approx. 200 metres to the nearest hydrant.
Give your thoughts on what you would do from first appliance arrival right thru to containment.
Have Fun
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Relay pump from the hydrant, set up a few monitors, kick back, relax, surround and drown.
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"Hypothetical" :wink:
I havent had enough experience to know what to do but Ill give it a shot from what I have picked up from movies ( :roll: ) and books :-P
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Firstly as OIC I would conduct a 360degree recce and ensure SAAS, SAPOL are on their way. I would use the 14 and a 34 for hoses and water carting, connect them to the type 2 pumper. Type2pumper would be the primary appliance to knock down the fire. 2 BA crews from the 34 would be my rescue men, maybe send 3 crew in with 38mm hose and maybe 1 or 2 from the 14 goign in as well with them as search and rescue. I would send in the type2 hosemen to assess and conduct internal attack and cover the searchers for a while. If the 3 people trapped are in the left hand side of the house it is porbably too dangerous to continue trying to find them so the searchand rescue crew will have to evacuate and attack the fire with hoses internally with the type2 crew. I would also have called for extra crews MFS, CFS whichever is available. If they manage to find the 3 trapped and they are alive then that would be priority to get them out! Should the fire bee to much of an inferno than I would pull everyone out of the inside and conduct a surround and drown.
Is that about right how it works?
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Not bad, although the 14 has no BA, and youve left no one outside to cover the BA operators inside.
Pumper guys and gals...'PUMPER' Unless you mean Ford Trader Type 2 Pumper, then you say '12'
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I would instruct all the appliances on scene to do relay pumping with the appliance closest to mains supply to act as the tanker... utilize the 14 & 34 appliances to knock down the fire, send in 2 CABA Crews with 2 x charged 38 mm lines to do internal attack and S&R, if any casualties are found 1 CABA crew would pull out and bring the casualties to safety for treatment by SAAS ICU Crews
While the people are being treated by ICU Crews i would instruct my crews to focus on attacking the fire from the outside until it is contained then secure premises until SAMFS Fire Cause Investigators arrive
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(By the way because I can't be bothered with a decent reply yet, I'll just criticise the rest of you, untill I think of something constructive to post)
But Robert! You've a Medium Urban Pumper you're not using! The thing is built for this, and you've relegated the poor fellow to the sidelines!
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come on toast, lets hear your pearls of wisdom then :-D
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After work, don't worry, I'll still criticise my own work :P
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What i meant by the relay pumping toast is that all 4 appliances would be getting water from the appliance closest to the mains supply...The medium urban pumper would be the one used for internal attack hose lines
While the 14 and 34 units would be attacking the fire from the outside
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You have a 2 story house, half of which is burning! Do you really think the occupants are going to survive? and is the structure still going to have enough integrity to commit BA crews with such a slim chance of the casualties being alive?
I'm inclined to agree with Toast - surround and drown...
Unless you had specific info about where the casualties are (like the mother of the trapped kids can say for sure that they are in bed, and show you what room that is...) - then I might try a smash and grab...
:)
Robert; We are taught not to attack house fires from the outside when crews are inside, as our water streams will force the flames into unburnt areas and assist in fire spread. Instead, we can attack from the inside (With BA of course :P) and force the fire away from the unburnt area. :)
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mate my thoughts on this are from unrealsitinc movies and some books so going in might not be the best but it might be alright. He said left side is fully involved, I envisaged only the left side bruning and the right side reltively alright, well alright enough to enter.
C'mon CFS Firey, wheres your input :-P :-D
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That was my input... :-o
unless you want a blow by blow description of how I'd surround and drown...
Use one of the 34's to relay pump to the Pumper and other 34. 2x crews in BA check around all windows and external doors for casualties, 2X crews in BA protect exposures. 2x Crews in BA Attack the fire from the outside with hoselines from the pumper and 34. 2X BA sit and watch Donned, but not started up.
The deal with half the house being alight is that the fire will compromise the strength of the beams holding the second floor and roof up - so even though the RHS of the house may be untouched the roof and second floor are still likely to collapse. Not to mention the super heated gases from the fire replacing breathable air...
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Ok, so what type of construction is the building? Is it new? Its it beginning to fall down? From the outside, what is the structural integrity looking like? Do we know roughly where people are?
So, the Pumper will run one 38mm line (2xBA) inside to the bottom story for a VERY quick primary search, one 34 will gain access (2xBA+1x38mm) to the second story via a ladder placed on the opposite end of the building to the fire, if things are looking ok structurally, for again, a quick primary search. The other 34 will be relay pumping from the hydrant with the 14 looking for another water source. Both the pumper and the first 34 will have a second/third line out each covering exposures, using the remaining BA operators from both of those appliances and the relay pumping 34. If the structure is looking stable, fire suppression activities will commence from both stories simultaneously. If the structure is looking unstable, all crew will be out of the building and will commence a defensive attack with BA. Also 2xBA kept outside for RIT, if things are not looking good then 4xBA kept outside for RIT.
Mind you, if the locations of the people weren't known or were suspected to be in areas where the fire had already impinged, I would seriously question the use of interior attack crews.
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So, the Pumper will run one 38mm line (2xBA) inside to the bottom story for a VERY quick primary search, one 34 will gain access (2xBA+1x38mm) [....]
I noticed a couple of you said the BA guys take a 38mm line in with them. Wouldn't a 25mm be sufficient and easier to carry/manhandle?
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38mm is the correct choice, it provides the appropriate volume for effective gas cooling and fire attack. With the Heat release rate of a fire this size a 25mm is not quite hard hitting enough.
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Firefrog that is your opinion about the 38mm. It might work for you
But I have used Hpline a heap of times for a internal attack.
I know lots of MFS firefighter that use this everyday for fires and it works for them.
if I was doing a external attack I would use a Hpline or64mm, I can't see the use at all for a 38mm.
Yes I have tried 38mm, but Iam not a fan of it
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have to admit we use the HP for everything.... we rarely use 64mm and dont even carry 48s....
im sure a 38 has its benefits ovver a 25 for internal attack, but getting to work and handling the line is much easier/quicker with the smaller stuff...
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Don't you have to carry 38s as part of standard stowage? (I assume you meant 38 not 48)
By the way, Hypothetical is the correct spelling... :)
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All to do with flow rates and what you want to achieve. Your never going to get the same amount of water out a 25 as you will a 38.
Only 64 is not really an option either (big bulky heavy) particularly if you want to maintain pressure/flow over a long distance.
We all modify our tactics to suit the need......
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38 was the intended number... :wink:
you are possibly correct re; standard stowage... but then again, if its not getting used... might as well make way for more layflat and 64mm.
how many do you guys carry? as well as our 2x100m HP reels, we have 7 layflats and 6 64s plus a filler length on our primary truck
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38's depend on the appliance, H.P lines are useless for structure fires on 24p's and 24's because they are not actually high pressure they are just hose reels, I personally have never used a 38 at a structure fire because i have always been at brigade's with a pumper that has high pressure lines or MFS appliances.
The job would highly depend on order of arrival and the times of arrival. eg. if the type 2 was first arrival for 5 or 10 minutes they would need to run their own water and not commit anyone at all and just start an external attack, then when a 34 arrived they could break the hose to the hydrant and boost the pressure to the type 2 then send their B.A ops up to the job and extra crew and then a quick search may be considered, then the next 34 and 14 would run other hose and assist. In the mean time i would probably be asking for another 2 appliances or 1 appliance and tanker forthwith. The type 2's can run more hoses than you would need so i would have that as the pumping appliance and have the others consintrate on getting 2 good water sources.
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38's depend on the appliance, H.P lines are useless for structure fires on 24p's and 24's because they are not actually high pressure they are just hose reels, I personally have never used a 38 at a structure fire because i have always been at brigade's with a pumper that has high pressure lines or MFS appliances.
Well put
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As the type two has flake hose lockers I would lay hose from hydrant as we pull up outside the front of the house,while CABA members get gear on and start a knock down and protect expouseres. The first 34 on scene is to take over expouseres attack and run a second feed line into pumper.Pumper crew get to work with internal attack with 38mm hose 2nd 34 crew get caba on and stand by to go inside The 14 crew will be used to set up a caba area as well as run out more hose to provide attack and feedlines.
PROBLEMS : poor water supply in the mains
: would the 3 trapped people still be alive?
are we sure they are in there and if so where?
: How long has the crews I have been in the job??
: what time frame will it take for the 34/14
rural appliances to arrive at the fire
: what are the exposures that need to be protected.
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Tillerman: Even if the pumper arrived first, wouldn't the highest priority still be Rescue? (RECEO) Why would you start putting the fire out before trying a rescue?
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Tillerman: Even if the pumper arrived first, wouldn't the highest priority still be Rescue? (RECEO) Why would you start putting the fire out before trying a rescue?
Uh Huh. Rescue, Exposures, Completely, Engulfed, Oh!, Stupid, Vehicle! (RECEO SV)
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If its fully involved would you send in your first crew with out back up being on scene?????
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You can do a very primary search without entering the building - check all windows and doors....
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Assuming the pumper is first arriving, it has 4xBA, thats two in, two out. Also with persons inside, and you KNOW that you have BA crew incoming, I'm going in no doubt about it.
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For those that haven't seen it, there's a thread about calling Type 2s pumpers:
http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=53&?topic=663.new;topicseen#new
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ok so you send your crew in what are the other 3 guys doing??? and just how much water does your pumper hold??? is it 200olts,1800 lts.....Its a hard call and one that I would not like to call...
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The other 3? OIC/Pump operator/Poor hose running man, 200m RUN RUN RUN
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Each appliance has a full crew of 5,you have sent two caba members inside you have 3 outside one would hope the oic would do more than talk on the radio(team work) and just how far is the next caba crew coming from........
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Well obviously you would be trying to save people if the opertunity is there whilst starting to knock down the fire but any structure fire i've been to where half the house is alight the rest of the house is on its way to being alight so conditions are very poor for rescue attemts. The smoke and heat is a bit different to smoke machine smoke at the training centre.
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I have called in the air support cam :-D
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No Worries Bill i will keep an eye on the sky.
Well done everyone. This is exactly what i was hoping when i started this thread. It is very interesting to hear the different views on how people would handle such an incident.
Here is my view on what would happen.
Make sure SAAS and SAPOL are notified on the way to incident. Type 2 is first to arrive (2nd Alarm called, although no upgrade is completed as there is already 3 appliances responding plus one on scene). 1 Person quickly circles the house and pulls the fuses while 2 BA crew start up. Once the recce person gets back and has briefed the crew on any dangers, the BA crew would then complete an external attack with a 38mm hose while also conducting a brief outside search(looking through windows etc). On Determining there are minimal exposures (trees & garden) rescue and containment efforts are put before this.
(All hoses entering building are from type 2)
2 x 34's arrive as this is happening. On determining the house is safe to enter, 3 Teams of BA are setup from these appliances, 1 takes in a 38mm hose upstairs to try and save the right half of the house, while the first BA crew enter the downstairs from the front to try and tame things there. The third BA crew enters the bottom floor from the front also and completes a quick primary search. The upstairs BA Crew have a quick search also of the top floor but very minor as anyone up there without BA would soon perish very quickly from the heat and smoke. The fourth crew are a Safety. Also the remaining crew move the appliances into place so 1 x 34 is relay pumping to the type 2 and other 34. Also these remaining crew protect exposures while everything is being setup.
The 14 Finally arrives. These crew and the remaining crew setup a BA post (tarps, new cylinders, refreshments).
SES is called to conduct traffic control.
I may have missed a detail but this is my general running of the incident.
Just one thing im unsure of as never had a pumper but in the event of relay pumping would it be better for the type 2 to supply both 34's or a 34 to supply the type 2 and 34? As you would hope CFB techniques would be being used there would be minimal water used and pressure shouldnt be a problem. Just a thought.
Camo
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Cam,its better to feed the pumper you need to take into account the flow rate of the pump on the pumper and that of the 34 pumps also the main water pressure as you know it is very low in some places...It gets back to training and training and did I say training.....
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As you would hope CFB techniques would be being used there would be minimal water used and pressure shouldnt be a problem. Just a thought.
Camo
I'd suggest that you wouldn't need CFB techniques on a building that has two stories involved... Maybe a LITTLE bit of natural venting has occurred?
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Yes true but there is no need to just open the nozzle up and let er rip. You can get the same effect using your water efficiently.
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Camo, any reason why you ran all the hoses off the pumper? I would be more inclined to run at least 1 line from the spare 34, just in case the pumper stops working (eg, if it was Stirling Pumper).... was there a reason you did ti that way?
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No not really...just over looked that fact... but i guess it comes down to when the appliances arrive, in this case the 34 was there so yeah i probaly should of used it my mistake but probaly in real life the type 2 might be there well before and that would be the reason they use all the hoses off that truck.
but yeah a simple oversight....good pickup
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It doesn't really matter that much in a structure fire because if the pump fails there is generally not another hose next to you to take over anyway so running hoses off different pumps won't help. As there is an appliance relaying to you there should still be enough pressure from the relay to protect yourself, the water doesn't just stop coz the pump stops.
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You'd be surprised at what a mischievous pumper can do. Although I'd kinda hope that if you had a questionable pumper like ours, you would run the external lines off another truck, so that if the brown stuff did hit the fan, you could prodive a degree of protection for your interior crews from the outside.
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Tillerman: Even if the pumper arrived first, wouldn't the highest priority still be Rescue? (RECEO) Why would you start putting the fire out before trying a rescue?
Think back to protocol and training, realising the fact the the safety of the firefighter is number one. If you don't have BA crews spare (emergency crew incase the initial BA team go down) you cannot take part in any internal attack. (Remembering you need the resources so if that emergency crew does go in, there is then another standing by... etc etc..)
Secondly... Is the dexterity of the building under too much doubt? EG - Do you know for sure, and better yet, prepared to send your crews into a structure which is well involved in fire, and has a highly probably chance of collapse.
Being a two story structure, and having both stories on one side well involved, I would be less inclined to send crews in. The effect on the core strength by having both ground and first story floors well involved, has a greater chance of collapse than a single story building. The continuing downward pressure of the top story and continual fatiguing of the supporting beams between stories 1 and 2 wouuld suggest to me that the 1st story and roof are very soon going to collapse. - Although, every job is different, and could result in very different outcomes..
I have read a number of valid and differing ideas on how to combat this situation, most of wich are practical and quite feasable. It goes to show the many different methods in which we can fight various incidents. I think the most important thing to realise is there will never be the "one" clear and correct answer... Every job will be different... The emotions of bystanders and relatives / householders who managed to get out would be huge! Especially with persons reported trapped.. You will be highly criticised at the job if it appeared you made no effort to get in and rescue people, you will be even more scrutinised by the media/public in the days / weeks after... The number of changing factors which could occur at the job will be endless and the outcomes infinite..
So in summary.... Firefighter safety is number one... and such an incident would indeed be a challenging one !
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one thing you need to consider in a two story structure is that the walls (if it is a solid brick home) on the bottom floor should be able to support the 2nd floor with no trouble....
in this case where the house is a solid brick home (which i think i forgot to mention) i would not have any problems sending crews in. But in saying that if the crews did not feel safe inside then i would be more than happy for them to exit the building.
But as you said each job is different.
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Gee Camo, this hypothetical almost sounds too familiar! :-P
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corecutters - my comment about doing rescue was because someone suggested attacking the fire, and then doing a search later, when more crews arrive... In my opinion, saving life is out primary role, not attacking the fire. But as you said, if its going to endanger your crews, don't do it! :)
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May as well post the photos for this job,mmmmmmmmmsounds like a house fire that took place in the mount not so long ago???? :evil:
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Well to some extent that is where i got the idea from but in the mt gambier house fire the whole top floor was well involved i think.
Im too lazy to think up new stuff
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House Fire - 2 Story, 3 Trapped Occupants, Left hand side of house fully involved (Top and Bottom Story), Entry on the right side at the top and centre back and front on bottom story.
Crew/Trucks Available - 1 x Type 2 Pumper with 4 x CABA, 2 x Rural 34's With 2 x CABA sets each & 1 x 14 No CABA. Each truck has a crew of 5 with everyone BA trained (14 is a new mitsi canter dualcab). Mains water is available but is approx. 200 metres to the nearest hydrant.
Prior to arrival based on the information recieved the OIC assigns the crews their tasks.On arrival OIC upgrades to 2nd alarm,and requests SAPOL and SAAS to attend..then does quick rece of the building and isolates the power,gas.Crews from Pumper gets to work with 1 x BA crews with a HP line make entry into the building and commence primary search,a second BA crew donned up,and ready to go setup PPV fan at front entry,and follow first team in with a second HP line.The OIC delegates a crew from the first 34 arriving to relay water to Pumper and start to protect exposures and also get another BA crew to act as safety for two teams inside already committed.Second 34 relays water to first 34,and has 2 BA operators donn and act as second safety crew backup.Crews from both 34's and now 14 start laying out a line of 64mm to the hydrant which is now 60 metres away.Once setup and all appliances now relaying water,crews assist BA operators with casualties they have retreived and provide first aid till SAAS arrive.BA safety teams takeover from the crews that have retrieved casualties and continue firefighting operations,ventilation and salvage.
The house was toast but a good save by the BA crews for 3 casualties :-D
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PPV Fan...hmmm
what is everyones thoughts on the use of these?
Not knowing the full story behind them i would be resistant to comment but just in a quick thought wouldnt feeding the fire more oxygen be a bad thing?
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It makes the fire worse, but it also clears the smoke which is a good thing because fire fighters can see where they are going, and casualties have more air to breath. :)
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mmm... have to admit it can make the fire worse... if used incorrectly.
on the other hand, if ventilation is conducted properly and closeto the seat of the fire, they can be excellent and greatly assist the containment and extinguishment of the fire...
definitley excellent equipment for salvag/overhaul ops...
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Well said Medevac
mmm... have to admit it can make the fire worse... if used incorrectly.
CFS_firey
You have got to be joking have you ever used a PPV or a you another basher of new technology
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CFS_firey
You have got to be joking have you ever used a PPV or a you another basher of new technology
I was saying they were a good thing, even though they can make the fire worse... how is that bashing technology?
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sorry CFS_firey, I just looked at the comment It makes the fire worse
I have been on CFS courses and talked to members from other brigades and they just hate PPV ( funny none of them have used a PPV)
It if you use the comment It makes the fire worsewithout saying why people get the wrong idea about the concept
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Sorry, I should probably clarify then:
PPV Fans introduce more oxygen to the fire, so the fire will burn better and larger, but by using the PPV fan (Correctly) you will remove smoke and heat from the building, allowing you to access the fire easily and quickly, and extinguish it. With the fire burning more brightly, it is also easier to find.
So even though the fire is getting bigger, its aiding us when it does.
:)
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Without proper ventilation and positioning, PPV fans CAN screw things up.
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In all cases I have found that premature introduction of a PPV Fan has hindered the fire/rescue operation and overall extinguishment of the fire. It is often amusing to see how incorrectly they are placed even for ventilation during salvage etc..
If you know what you are doing they can save alot of time and damage during a fire, but there are so many probabilities that can go wrong, it is often a very hard call to introduce the fan until the fire has been extinguished..
But, a key piece of equipment in my view.