SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Scania_1 on May 04, 2006, 06:19:32 PM
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1908981 08:15:50 04-05-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 FYI we default again because there was NO driver available, THANKS FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DID TURN UP !!! - SEAFORD STATION
Dont know about the rest of you but I think messages like this are a bit harsh. Obviously the brigade has issues with the number of drivers available. But you shouldnt bag the drivers you have that maybe couldnt make the call due to work/family committments etc.Too much being carried on the shoulders of the few drivers they have I think.
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mmm if they fell its justified then so be it... there call.
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Seaford need to be told thats not appropriate. Kind of thing that should be told at training/ meeting night ...
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Yes the wrong thing to say on the pager,now I know why the MFS have land down there... better still train drivers to drive the appliances and if its still a problem well do something about it..............
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I was always taught at courses and the CFS/SES Leadership course:-
"praise in public, discipline in private"
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Seaford CFS isnt the only brigade to have issues with driver numbers as some of the brigades in Region 5 often have difficulty getting drivers for trucks but we just inform our division base via GRN that there isnt any driver
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Day Crew Is Always An Issue, What Was The Job That They Had To Default On???
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I personally don't have a problem with messages like this... its obviously an ongoing problem, and discipline in private hasn't fixed it... Maybe sending a page out is a last resort to try and get more crew... IMO its not aimed at the people with commitments who couldn't come, but rather the people who couldn't be bothered coming... (All completely speculation of course :P)
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It was a fixed alarm to seaford shopping centre, may be its time the brigade looked at doing something about drivers and getting a few more trainned up. The other problem I have noticed is some brigade who have a waiting list to join will not allow those who are waiting to get involved do the training.. I say remove your waiting list and you may get some day time crews at last into some of these brigades that are having problems.
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Oops our brigade has poached three members from Seaford in the last 18 months all drivers :-D
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Such is life,people will move on with in or with out of the service..... time for a mix of paid and volunteers at some stations like CFA........
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lets talk constructively about solutions and avoid any critical views on other stations.
Cheers :-D
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sorry only a joke, but look its an on going problem for a lot of brigades.............
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I was always taught at courses and the CFS/SES Leadership course:-
"praise in public, discipline in private"
Why does it not occur to anybody that the page that was sent out was intended ONLY for Seaford members which would "theoritically" be the case. If there was no online pager decoder we (the public) would not know of this message so it would be private.
The messages on the site are intended just for those who it is addressed too.........If its not on your pager, its not for you.
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I think people are disecting it for the reason that kind of thing ahould not even go on in private between th members, especially not over a page. Saying what was said on the pager with all the group there at a training night would be much better as then you can hear the tone of the message, hear peoples thoughts, and here the thoughts of the truckies who didnt attend.
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The person putting out the page might have thought that only his/hers brigade members are the only people seeing the message.
Not everyone knows about the pager web sites. I have told my brigades members that send pages to be carefull about delicate information
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I have been a member of a brigade which had problems getting drivers zt call-outs. I was a driver there and went when I could. If I was a driver at Seaford and saw that pager message i would not be impressed.
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I was always taught at courses and the CFS/SES Leadership course:-
"praise in public, discipline in private"
Why does it not occur to anybody that the page that was sent out was intended ONLY for Seaford members which would "theoritically" be the case. If there was no online pager decoder we (the public) would not know of this message so it would be private.
The messages on the site are intended just for those who it is addressed too.........If its not on your pager, its not for you.
Shutup.
It is common knowledge that the pages can be read... Don't get defensive over something you are not involved in.. And.. if you are involved (e.g a member of that brigade, maybe tell who ever sent it , that next time.. Think who CAN and WILL be reading it..)
Little common sense never goes astray....
Vollunteers are exactly that ! Vollies... Don't publicly bash them by sending pages which can be read by the world... There is the right way, and the wrong way.. of fixing problems... A page like that is definately the wrong way...
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I was always taught at courses and the CFS/SES Leadership course:-
"praise in public, discipline in private"
Why does it not occur to anybody that the page that was sent out was intended ONLY for Seaford members which would "theoritically" be the case. If there was no online pager decoder we (the public) would not know of this message so it would be private.
The messages on the site are intended just for those who it is addressed too.........If its not on your pager, its not for you.
I agree with you F/F Matt.
We don't know if its that brigade's policy or not to send out messages like that. My brigade has done it in the past when we were going through a critical time. We found that making people aware of the situation often brought people back in area for further callouts.
I do believe it could have been worded better. It appears to have a little sarcasm/in your face attitude in it. Not good for moral.
Constructive comments on brigades pager messages is good but criticism without knowing the facts in dangerous.
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if its not on your pager, its not for you
this is a good point...
ppl need to remember that paging and GRN radio is our form of communication... this is the same as ppl getting antsy about paging information regarding fatalities/personal involvement/SPAM/etc...
now, ppl need to show there own discretion at what they page out and use common sense, but its not up to us to judge them.
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I dont understand all the people having a go at what others put out on the pagers. If it werent for hte pager scanner websote, or your own scanners, you wouldnt see it. Does it affect you? No!
If a brigade has been defaulting often, the crew deserves a page to get the going.
All we need to do now is scrap the current pagin system and have a system whereby we get "Respond: Incident @ location" Nothing specifc as to what it is. You cant pick and choose then.
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I read today that seaford is to have dual responce to all calls till further notice due to manning problems.. Hope they can get some new members soon who are able to drive the appliances...
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Yes, dual response with Morphett-Vale.
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Seaford is a fairly highly populated area, you would think that someone would join. Why don't they just do the "we need you now, or else we won't exist" pamphlet drop. It shouldn't have to come to that ever, but it looks like its happening more and more now. :|
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My opinion only & because I live near there. Majority of people who live near Seaford CFS work either at Lonsdale, McLaren Vale region wineries or the city. Thus they are not near the station for your truck rollout time during the day.
The nearby shopping centre is being rebuilt and they also have had a a lot of fire alarm checking lately.
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Maybe Seaford are the only one with the balls to publicly admit that they have a day time crewing problem - mean while many others stick their heads in the sand and think that things will get better, whilst others put systems in place (i.e. automactic dual response) to fix the problems!
It's not a hard solution and congratulations to Seaford for putting it out there - it's time more brigades and units wre honest and up front - Volunteer services Australia wide are having problems and it's something that services and state and fedral governments need to address!
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The sooner the MFS build their stations down there the better. For everyone.
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The sooner the MFS build their stations down there the better. For everyone.
Or maybe the current project being conducted by SAFECOM Volunteer Management Board will provide a solution to the problem of day-time crewing of volunteer emergency services.
Some interesting ideas being rumoured.
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tell us more, Mr Mac...
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One idea being rumoured for SES is to place a vehicle closer to volunteer workplace's. For example, in the Adelaide CBD.
Then volunteers from any SES Unit can register response time to that centralised vehicle. Not sure if a roster would be used or how a crew made from multiple units would work or how politics would affect the idea.
The aim (I believe) is to get trained volunteers on a emergency vehicle as quickly as possible.
From myself this would limit volunteer OH&S issues with people driving distances to LHQ, volunteer travelling cost (one Unit reported that members are using a quarter tank of private petrol on a weekend for six callouts), would be a form of volunteer car pooling to incident/LHQ, lights/sirens available to volunteers if required and volunteers who use public transport to get to work can respond (me included & I am currently a slow response to LHQ vehicles).
Historically and currently SES Unit vehicles are stored in multiple locations. For example, Sturt SES have a vehicle at Sturt Police Station and the rest at their LHQ in Coromandle Valley. Historically Mitcham SES had a vehicle at Brighton.
Again this is a RUMOUR and other ideas are being proposed to improve the SES 'Standard of Emergency Response'.
VMB project oficer had SES members fill out a survey form a few months ago. I believe the project is on-going and no firm proposals have been made.
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hmmm intruiging
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i dont think there would be many a brigade in the state that hasnt had trouble crewing a truck during the day.
Most brigades in this area respond during the day with two people on board, quite simply because the other vollies cant get away from work (which is more then acceptable, your job should come before cfs duties)
And realistically i dont see a solution because no matter what you say/give to your employer there is no real substitute for losing a worker for an hour or a day.
People have suggested a reimbursement scheme like the army reserve but like i just said that doesnt replace the person and the work that would of got done.
And unfortunately its only a matter of time until the scheiße hits the fan because of it but like i said the realistic view is there is really no solution.
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Most brigades in this area respond during the day with two people on board, quite simply because the other vollies cant get away from work (which is more then acceptable, your job should come before cfs duties)
funny that... i wonder how many brigades actually follow state SOPS for minimum crew...
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im not 100% on what that is...2 or 3 or whateva but when it comes to reality either we respond with that amount or fires will never be put out by us. We will have to default to a brigade probaly 60kms away for someone to respond with a full crew.
Just a matter of respond double the amount of trucks just to get the amount of people we need.
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4
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as much as i understand the reason for there being a minimum crewing of 4 it really isnt realistic for alot of rural brigades.
It might be alright for brigades in region 1 where the next brigade might only be 10mintues away...
Some rural areas are at least 1 hour from the nearest brigade... and like i said we are probaly 30mins from a brigade that could fully crew a day truck.
Camo
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could argue till were both blue in the face... personally i believe that 4 is a good number... was listening to the scanner the other day and a house fire in the southe east the first arriving appliance had two people on board and the fire was cranking, what use is that? 4 is really a good minimum crew number to be able to work effectively...
but anyway thats not my point, im just stating that i wonder how many (if any) brigades actually astick with the SOP...
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not trying to brawl or repeat my self but just answer this question for me...
Whats more useful. A truck with two crew on it and 3000l water or a truck sitting in a station waiting until close of business so people can attend the station to go sift thru wateva is left of the house?
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personally, im pretty sure my own good health is more important than both, and more useful to me.
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who said anything about going into the house?
or any fire for that matter....
forest fire no trucks from the group respond it burns for weeks wiping out several thousand houses cos they werent allowed to respond but could of been put out in the first hour if they responded.
maybe an exageration but you get my drift surely.
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dropping the issue now :-D
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Minimum crew for an appliance is 4 persons. Both our rescue and our tanker can only seat 3 persons...
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may work in your area medevac but now down here and in other parts of the state... that is why during the day 3 or 4 brigade's are paged and they may have two or three members on the appliances...Funny there is a region 1 group that does the same......................
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Just to throw the cat among the pigeons!
Obviously the closest brigade isn't always responded in some occasions.
I am aware of structure fires only minutes out of our area when crew numbers and BA wearers are short.
I think it is a bit strange why our crew have not been responded to assist as we would always respond 4 crew all qualified BA wearers to an out of district call.
At the end of the day a person whose home or business is on fire is not going to give a rats bum which crew puts it out the fire, no matter what color truck they turn up in.
Anyway, just a thought.
Regards, Mat
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how true mat,but it works both ways.............
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i totally agree Matt. And my view of the house fire yesterday was you should of been paged instead of Mil lel which is on the other side of town and as far as i know ...no BA operators.
And Blinkey The MFS In MT Gambier happily call us in for backup at the drop of the hat. We have a really good relationship. Apart from the politics of Adelaide and paging which has nothing to do with the local brigade.
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But mat.... CFS doesnt want Mets coming into there area!!! **sarcasm**
blinky, i dont care if it works in my area or your area or wherever, doesnt change the fact that its a state SOP.... does this mean we ignore state SOPs re; driving, equipment operation, etc???
who gives a crap whether its region one? i dont see how that makes a diff.
camo; i guess it depends who is requested as to who is responded... politics in adelaide? adelaide will page whomever they are requested to by the locals.
Apart from the politics of Adelaide and paging which has nothing to do with the local brigade.
brigade responses have EVERYTHING to do with the local brigade requests
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Dont talk to me about SOPS as each staff and volunteer has there own understanding of it and they all have there own rule's..... :mrgreen:
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Definitely Bill, but things are changing,and I am a supporter of mutual aid both ways and we quite often now will have a CFS appliance on our station and other units with us on scene when we are committed to a larger job.
I think it is starting to work but we need to keep at it.
Regards, Mat
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Gotta luv politics!! 8-) :-(
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camo; i guess it depends who is requested as to who is responded... politics in adelaide? adelaide will page whomever they are requested to by the locals.
Apart from the politics of Adelaide and paging which has nothing to do with the local brigade.
brigade responses have EVERYTHING to do with the local brigade requests
Medevac if a member of the public rings up and reports a fire on millicent rd mt gambier then adelaide look up where it is a page that brigade...they dont ring someone and ask who to page. and just incase your totally off track we are talking about MFS Comms not CFS.
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i give up...
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Hi All,
Camo. I fully agree that there isnt many brigades in the state that can guarente a minimum turn-out in line with SOP's (re- training levels and response times). However if i can remeber correctly you're with Compton brigade, and isnt that relativly close to a SAMFS regional command retained station with 4 vehicles (capable of turning out a crew of 4 Ba operators, am unsure as i'm not from that neck of the woods) is this not clser than 30 minutes away? Sorry my thoughts only, again am not familisr with that area.
SK
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Camo et al, Opps, sorry, replied to a post with-out reading further on to see what i had to say was already being discussed. Again Sorry. Although i do agree with Matt. It does work both ways (CFS/MFS) and I know the Mount (and surrounding area) aren't the only ones who have the problem either. Medivac, i know how frustrating it is to see brigades, groups and individuals paying little attention to the SOP's (i'm not sure if any of us are innocent, if even in a small way) but I really dont think there is a quick fix answer to it. Like Camo and Blinkey have said if you dont turn-out with 2, will you turn out at all???, as well as that a vehicle with reduced crew arriving substantily earlier than a fully crewed appliance can have big advantages in rural, defensive urban & rescue incidents (not saying i agree with-it, medivac i'm on oyur side here, but its reality, not just in rural parts of SA, it affects region one too) Who knows the answer, with dwindling volunteer numbers, and reduced availibilty of those remaining vols, a career SAMFS station isnt an option in the majority of these cases!! I do however beive that dual, tri or quad response of brigades goes someway to answering the question (so long as it is the closest, most appropriate resourse!!)
-sorry what a long rant, its late!
SK
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At Goolwa our closest BA backup is Pt Elliot and they have 2 BA operators (who live in another town... :|) next is Victor MFS for back up and they are 18kms from Goolwa. Yet we get told by a group person (i won't specify who) that Mt Compass at 30km away is to be responded because "we respond CFS before MFS" which nearly caused an argument of the century when it was said, but i totally agree with everyone that who cares if dad's army or whatever are closer if they can do the job get them there???
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Hi All,
Camo. I fully agree that there isnt many brigades in the state that can guarente a minimum turn-out in line with SOP's (re- training levels and response times). However if i can remeber correctly you're with Compton brigade, and isnt that relativly close to a SAMFS regional command retained station with 4 vehicles (capable of turning out a crew of 4 Ba operators, am unsure as i'm not from that neck of the woods) is this not clser than 30 minutes away? Sorry my thoughts only, again am not familisr with that area.
SK
Yes you are right SK originally i did overlook the MFS as an option sorry Matt. and in the circumstances of the house fire on tuesday they should of been rolled but werent and although it probaly wouldnt of changed the end result it still would been nice to have the extra sets of hands.
Camo
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Im somewhat confused about where this thread has gone... but anyway....
If common sense prevails it should be the next available resource, which has been said many times in many different threads...
We need a crew of 4 according to the SOP's. Well these things are in place for a reason, and lots of brigades have trouble crewing now days. I know in our are is a minimum crew cant be met the next brigade is responded and the GO is asked for permission to roll. This works! Look at it this way, at least when you rendevous at site you can form a composite crew... not breaking any SOP's then (as a matter op opinion).
Still each to there own interpretation!
And jsut to relate this back to the original topic, how many of these brigades are seen to be sending "harsh" messages. Instead they think 'out of the square' to get the job done....
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Minimum crew for an appliance is 4 persons. Both our rescue and our tanker can only seat 3 persons...
toast, you can get away with 3 on your tanker, you only really need that many crew on a tanker I reckon, heck, even 2 does the job. rescue, well in your case pumper will be there most cases anyway so your cool.
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Cammo and Blinky, I understand what you guys are saying in moral, however have to back what Medevac is saying.. It is a SOP, if you cant do it, (E.G - dont / cant crew with the right number of people) .. dont make the excuse that " Everyone has there own rules / ways of doing it "... fix the problem, and respond with the SOP required minimum crew.
Your asses will be on the line if something happened and you didnt respond with the S.O.P required crew ! And that was proven as the cause of what ever problem arose..
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toast, you can get away with 3 on your tanker, you only really need that many crew on a tanker I reckon, heck, even 2 does the job. rescue, well in your case pumper will be there most cases anyway so your cool.
the SOP of 4 does not apply to tankers (or the small single-cab 14s like landcruiser utes). I reckon 2 is the right number for a tanker. 3 is a squeeze in the cab and usually leaves one person standing around with nothing to do anyway.
regarding do you respond or not with only 2 crew, if other brigades have been responded as well, you contact your group duty officer and check, then tell SHQ you are responding short-crewed and make up the numbers with another brigade at the scene (even if that means parking one truck).
if it's a problem for a brigade and the next closest brigade is miles away, then your group has to organise what they're going to do beforehand (that's what response plans are for).
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I totally understand why the SOP is there but really to me it needs to be a bit flexible.
For us to provide an efficient service its just not feasible to roll during the day with the required amount...
but on saying that when we get on scene its not like we are only operating with those two people only...its a group effort of (in the other days case about 10-15 people).
Maybe i havent made myself clear....we would never respond to a job e.g grass fire, scrub fire etc without the minimum of 4 people unless we knew we could get others from elsewhere on scene. but at a job like a house fire or vehicle accident, you know its not going anywhere and if you have to short crew trucks so be it...there really is no extra risk to anyone as like i said its a group effort once on scene.
Camo
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^ Personally, I agree... and totally see where you are coming from..
Altho... if the blame game starts to happen over something... Could get hung out to dry on sumthing so simple as crew numbers...
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I think I'd probably rather get in trouble for short crewing, than live with the fact that soemone died because we couldn't get a full crew... (for example)
But as you say, we should follow SOPs...
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I have seen first hand a number of country MFS stations only have two or 3 on their appliances,they are in the same boat and they have the same plan if that is all that shows up go and deal with what ya can till help arrives... In teh USA in LACOUNTY they have one man fire stations that have a 14 type unit that rolls and does what it can till help arrives...
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regarding do you respond or not with only 2 crew, if other brigades have been responded as well, you contact your group duty officer and check, then tell SHQ you are responding short-crewed and make up the numbers with another brigade at the scene (even if that means parking one truck).
I've done that before. Middle of a pretty warm weekday, got a call for a grassie, and only three rocked up, me included. so we called striling and they came with enough peeps so we could cover both trucks.
then it turned out to be some dude burning off. :|
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I totally understand why the SOP is there but really to me it needs to be a bit flexible.
For us to provide an efficient service its just not feasible to roll during the day with the required amount...
but on saying that when we get on scene its not like we are only operating with those two people only...its a group effort of (in the other days case about 10-15 people).
Maybe i havent made myself clear....we would never respond to a job e.g grass fire, scrub fire etc without the minimum of 4 people unless we knew we could get others from elsewhere on scene. but at a job like a house fire or vehicle accident, you know its not going anywhere and if you have to short crew trucks so be it...there really is no extra risk to anyone as like i said its a group effort once on scene.
All We Do Is Get On The Radio To The GO & Advise That We Only Have 3 Crew For Example & He Either Tells Us To Roll & Do What We Can Or Roll Us & Send Another Brigade To Help. Leave The Judgement Call With The GO.
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You can always roll and work with the other crew or use your water to refill other appliances.....better to roll with 3 and not at all....
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All good in hindsight... but..
You respond with 3... a crew member gets hurt ... and they rule that if you had your required crew the accident/injury may not / wouldn't have happend....
Heads would roll....
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How is that different from rolling to an RCR with 6 crew members but only 3 RCR trained? Head are going to roll anyway if something goes wrong, thats the society we live in...
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that would be why there are SOPs for minimum RCR crews....
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That's the point I was trying to make medevac... That not only do you need full crews, but you need trained crews, and that's yet another problem... (I just didn't make it very well ;))
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Head are going to roll anyway if something goes wrong, thats the society we live in...
I've always found that piece of humans interesting... we've all got to point the finger of blame in a direction.
oh also found this...
For the members who where not at the station last Monday night, **** is now the acting Captain untill the AGM. From Lt1. - SEAFORD STATION
take it for what its worth..
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Look there are a number of groups in the state that do group pages and they all roll to the job,some appliances may only have two crew....
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Ive never seen more than about 3 brigades turned out in one page...?
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Some people have to realise that all our pages that we send out are there for public viewing, so maybe have your slag in the privacy of your own briagde station and not over the pager system. Happy Valley for instance sends out pages to thank their returning crews maybe we should all take a lesson from this. People always respond better to praise than being put down, the drivers won't turn up to a brigade that treats them with disrespect. I think we have to remember that people have a life outside the CFS and can't always make callouts
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Hah... id actually be pretty pissed if i stayed in bed because i had work the next day, finalyl get back to sleep and a stopcall page got sent out or whatever and woke me uop again... but thats just me.
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I would not be happy if I had been out at a fire call and returned and when the change over crew came back they paged out that they were back