SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: CyberCitizen on July 04, 2005, 09:49:52 AM
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ABOUT 30 victims of the Black Tuesday bushfires on Lower Eyre Peninsula are to lodge a multimillion-dollar class action against the Country Fire Service over its handling of the disaster that killed nine people.
The victims want others to join the action, which is based on a belief the fire should have been contained on the Monday night through back-burning operations and water bombing.
Victims are believed to have lost more than $100 million in property and stock in the January 11 fire.
The group has engaged an Adelaide law firm and has held a public meeting in Port Lincoln. An independent investigator has been hired to compile a report on the fires.
The victims, many of whom are volunteer firefighters themselves, are now awaiting the outcome of an expected coronial investigation before initiating legal action.
The CFS's handling of the fire has been the subject of several reports and will be a key factor examined in the coronial investigation.
CFS chief executive Euan Ferguson yesterday said it would be inappropriate to comment on any potential legal action.
Meanwhile, the man charged over the fires, truck driver Marco Visic Jr, has issued an emotional statement through his lawyer, Mark Semmens.
Mr Visic, 40, was last month charged with breaching a section of the Country Fires Act by not having a spark arrester in good order. The fire allegedly took hold when Mr Visic's car was driven in long grass near Wangary.
"My client feels immense sorrow for the devastation caused by the bushfire, to those who lost property and, more so, to those who were injured or lost loved ones in the fires," the statement says. "Mr Visic Jr and his family have suffered emotionally and are distressed by the fire, its consequences and the court charge. Mr Visic asks that he and his family are not vilified for what is the most tragic event on the Eyre Peninsula this century."
The fire claimed nine lives and destroyed 93 homes as it tore through 77,000ha of the lower Eyre Peninsula. Farmers reported 237 sheds and 139 pieces of farm machinery were destroyed. Almost 47,000 head of livestock was lost, including 46,139 sheep.
White Flat resident Patricia Pahl, who lost her house, said she had signed up for the class action because she believed the blaze was poorly handled.
She, like many other victims, claims that back-burning on Monday night could have restricted the extent of the fire, which broke out in up to eight places in extreme temperature and high winds the following day.
"I am not into suing people," Ms Pahl said yesterday. "But there was more that could have been done on that Monday night."
Ms Pahl's daughters, Cassandra, 13, and Helen, 11, fled their property in two four-wheel-drives as 20m-high flames approached. Almost six months after the ordeal, Ms Pahl said many in the community were still coming to terms with the tragedy.
Her family is still living in a caravan amid the rubble of their former home.
"Some days I'm crying, some days I can't talk, some days I'm laughing. It is just stupid," she said.
"The whole thing is very upsetting. It is affecting our kids. But we are so thankful we are alive."
Several victims fear the coronial inquiry will be delayed by a change in state coroners. Outgoing coroner Wayne Chivell, who toured affected areas immediately after the blaze, has resigned to take up a position as a District Court judge.
His replacement has not yet been announced.
"It is very disappointing – the Government should have more sympathy and kept the same coroner until he finished his job," Ms Pahl said.
"The new coroner will have to go over everything and get a gist of the whole thing and that's going to take months. I'm very disheartened about the whole thing."
Source: http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,15812063%255E910,00.html
Post Your Thoughts
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If it wasn't for that one spark, it wouldnt have happend.
Funny how the tide is turning in CFS' direction! I blame the person without the spark arrestor!
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Please feel free to discuss this topic, but refrain from any rumor, speculation or gossip.
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Blame - ahhh the great word of todays society - it's always someone else's fault.
NOW:
Was it solely the car driver and his vehicle?
Was it the mechanic who had not picked up a fault?
Was it a new car and therefore the manufacturers fault?
Was it the adjoining land owner who had not maintained the required breaks around their property?
Was it the local council - who had not educated the community?
Was it the Fire Prevention Officer (council) who had not done their inspections?
Was it the local Brigade and Group, who had not engaged the community in proactive fire prevention and survival advise?
Was it poor management by the IMT - were they in control of the fire?
Was there even an operating IMT at the time of the escape?
Was it poor fire prevention advice and information by CFS, the fire prevention team (there are allot of staff in that team), SAFECOM Risk Management (another big team), CFS Media (a small team with a huge voice)
Was it poor funding by government - who under resourced the area with fire appliances, aircraft, machinery, rural fire experts, land managers and alike?
Or was it a combination of all or some of the above, which combined with time, complacency, resources (public and private) and the EXTREME fire weather created a disaster, an eye opener and a reminder to all Australians, all communities and all fire fighters that we don't control fire, we attempt and often manage it but occasional it is outside of any parameters and that is what we warn people about - it is wild, it moves, it lives, it consumes and occasionally (as the record books indicate) there is little anyone and any amount of resources can do.
BLAME is not an option here - UNDERSTANDING is!
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I think its a good thing people are pursuing this, hopefully some deep and thorough investigations will be done.
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Loss leads to anger, and anger leads to a want to blame.
I believe that this is all very unfortunate and sad for all the people involved. As for a class action against the CFS, well that's the seeking to blame!
I also believe that the weather conditions experienced on Eyre Pen on Black Tuesday would have made the fire very difficult to contain regardless of the amount of resources sent.
Image the different fire Mount Osmond would have been if the wind conditions were doubled in speed!
I hope some good comes out of this for all involved.
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I also believe that the weather conditions experienced on Eyre Pen on Black Tuesday would have made the fire very difficult to contain regardless of the amount of resources sent.
"There is no firefighting force in the world that could have stopped the fire in the conditions we experienced today"
Next, The Man Who Sued God. Can They Not Prove He Had Something To Do With The Weather Conditions.
We Are Vollies, We Went To Help & They Want To Sue The CFS Because They Feel That We Could Have Done More. That May Just Be The Case, However We Did The Best We Could During The Suitation & Now They Have All The Time In The World To Pick Apart Every Small Detail. I Think It's Wrong, However That Being Said, I Also Feel Sadness For Those Who Lost Love'd Ones & There Homes + Belongings.
Fatalities 9 (including 4 children and 2 firefighters) - Let Us Not Forget We Lost Some Of Our Own Over There.
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But the people suing are talking about the day before, when it was not anything like the next day, what went wrong the day before?
I am just playing devils advocate, there is always two sides to a story..........
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What annoys me, is that some of the people suing the CFS, are actual Vollies. I am traidtional etc, and don;t think going at your own like that is a good idea.
Fair enough, you want something back for what you lost, if people etc were negligent, or acted in a neglegent manner, you want something for it, but why go public with it all ?
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I can sympathise with what these people would be feeling, but i dont believe the answer is to sue someone.... I liken it to biting the hand that feeds you (in this case the people doing their utmost to help)
I wonder how much influence american culture has had on our society when things like this come up......
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^ Couldn't agree more.
Saw in the paper on the same day as that article, that actual vollunteers don't have to worry, obviously there is a Clause some where that clears volunteers of there actions ? (Im guessing as long as they aren't negligent). As was written in the paper, I also believe that this kind of 'action', which is now in the media spotlight, would only dis-courage people wanting to volunteer there time, and risk getting sued!
I heard the findings are meant to be released soon? Any knowledge on when?
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I think were covered by the "good samaritan" act...... or something like that.....
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Hi there all
I have been sitting back viewing what is been written for some time now.
I am a CFS Volunteer within the upper rank structure (Group) as well as a full time Emergency Services worker- and I understand the frustrations of the people whom have lost everything.
My biggest worry is for the future volunteers within the CFS - "Australia" relies heavily on the volunteer services and they do a mighty job -
but this sort of negative publicity will have detrimental effects for the volunteer numbers within the current & future.
At the end of the Day - I agree there needs to be an inquiry. No one can fix mistakes if they are not highlighted.
Again I stress I have seen the effects of the fires on the E/P and my thoughts and sympathy goes to those who have lost love ones & friends.
Thanks for looking
Wayne
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Thats right wayne. Who is going to want to "volunteer" there precious time, not to mention risking there lives etc, and risk the chance of being sued for doing the right thing. The worst thing about all of this, is it is in the media spotlight.
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I have heard of people saying that they don't want to sue the vollies only the paid staff. What they forget is that what ever happens to the paid staff may filter down to the vollies in some way.
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Negative Publicity = Less Vollies = Less Bridages = Less Service/Protection.
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Less Service/Protection = MFS Take over = End of CFS
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Is interesting...... Ive been bailed up by a few people at work asking what i thought about the matter aswell..... They have all given me the same impression. The general consensis from people is that "its not right to "attack" those that were trying to help"
Public opinion isnt always swayed by what they read i guess......
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MFS Take over = End of CFS
Well We Can't Have That Can We.
Ive been bailed up by a few people at work asking what i thought about the matter aswell
Well Send Them Here :-D
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Ive been bailed up by a few people at work asking what i thought about the matter aswell
Well Send Them Here :-D
Ahh, now that comment gives a bad impression of the poeple im talking to..... see how easy it is! And we were complaining about the media :wink: :-D
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As Mike said... I had a hair cut today, first question hairdresser asked me (as he knows im in the CFS) ... "Looks like you guys are in the media spotlight about this Pt Linc. stuff ey?" (Explained I only know what I read, as I was not there) "He then also voiced the view that what they hell are people playing at , suing vollunteers!!
So i guess not everyone thinks we are terrible monsters, causing havoc and destruction...........Altho I can see the media will run with this, like they do everything!
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A few things out of this discussion so far:
CFS isn't just covered by a "good Samaritan clause" - there is actually a part of the legislation which protects members from being sued, as long as they were acting in good faith (eg not negligent). So it covers the money side of things - eg volunteers won't lose their possessions if the case goes against them - but not the emotional side.
Another comment one of the correspondents to this list said - at least if this class action is happening, there will be a thorough investigation.....I am a little intrigued - is this meant to be tongue in cheek, or an actual belief?
There are a wide range of investigations occurring into the fires - some internal, others completely external (and independent) to the CFS. Project Phoenix was done internally by the CFS, the police investigation, investigation by the CSIRO (I think) into the actual bushfire behavior, as well as a few other independent investigators. I would expect ALL of those investigators to be thourough in their own area investigation. Is an investigation by a law firm, looking for someone to blame / hold responsible going to mean it is the only thorough investigation?
While I respect the right of people to take legal action, I am still perplexed on exactly what the basis of the claim actually is - as of two days ago (6th July) the action had not yet been filed with the courts......
Pip
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I think we have to be very careful talking about this in a open room which the public have access to,also as this is a on going court case may be for once we should just wait and see the whole picture.
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.
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So far all that has been voiced, are some general opinions. The methods involved in investigation, and time spans etc. Nothing that can be seen as confidential , or incriminating.
But yes, the need for care is definately present. Altho, I don't think opinions are a problem, as they are personal, and not relevant to anything. (just don;t include facts/hearsay, or items deemed confidential or "privvy".)
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Interesting article on Crikey regarding the E.P. fires, I don't necessarily agree with it all but still interesting none the less.
http://www.crikey.com.au/articles/2005/07/06-0956-455.html
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Just a note of support for the vollies on the Eyre Peninsula who are facing some rough times at the moment. From some accounts they are bearing the brunt of community discontent as well as sharing the losses.
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Less Service/Protection = MFS Take over = End of CFS
Thats one thing the goverment could not afford. :-D
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I understand fully the pain in which Eyre Peninsula residents have suffered because of the Black Tuesday fires that claimed 9 lives but suing the CFS over this fire should have never came about
Before the EP residents decided to sue the SACFS over this tragic fire what should have taken into consideration that they (the Eyre Peninsula residents)might not have been adequately prepared themselves for dangerous bushfire weather ahead on that Tuesday when the fire sprung up
Even though the fire itself was unstoppable good preparation and no fleeing by house owners/residents would have saved many houses from being gutted and burnt to the ground
I think its 50/50 blame factor
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I was involved on Black Tuesday.
I respect that people have the right to spend their money on expensive lawyers for potentially no result..and run the risk of being counter sued by the govt for expenses but perhaps they should spend the time looking at why they want to lay blame..
Maybe it's because they can't resolve their own guilt of what they did or didn't do over the 2 days??
There is more misinformation than fact being presented in the media and most that are speaking out are talking fiction...
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I agree CaptCom because you seen the horror/nightmare of Black Tuesday being on the frontline when it ripped through Eyre Peninsula showing no mercy in January this year
But still i think that those people who were taken tragically by the fire could have saved their lives by having a bushfire action plan like many South Australian families have
Then again you're right about the misinformation factor that happened during and after the Black Tuesday fires...like i said in my earlier post the fire was very much unstoppable because of the fire weather factor on that particular day
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You have it completely Robert34..it was a filthy day..and any fire of any size burning on that day..probably would have resulted in the same outcome..
Unfortunately, you are also right about Bushfire Prevention Plans...8 of those tragically taken were in vehicles..many more were miraculously spared as they fled...instead of staying in their homes..we need more effective education.
It is also difficult to understand the hypocrisy associated with current volunteers looking to sue the organisation that they belong to ..and some claim to love being a part of..that sticks in my throat!
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It is a sad cultural trend to need to blame someone or something when things go wrong.
I think Captcom is spot on with the theory that people are trying to deal with their own guilt feelings.
Try to keep your heads high as CFS and Community members! I sincerely hope (no evidence?) that the service is working tirelessly to support the vollies of the EP.
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Kat, through all of the hard times, one thing that has remained constant is the support from CFS and VFBA from the top down.
I have personally had many calls and visits from Euan and Wendy, as well as the Regional staff being available at all times...and then there is the incredible SPAM team..without all this support..I think many vollies would have resigned...there is tougher times to come though but all have re-inforced their commitment to get everyone through.
There are 52 names on the witness list...most would be vollies..unfortunately, mine is one of them...you can all hope that you never have to have the experience.
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Ask yourself why these vollys are wanting to sue the CFS. What went so terribly wrong that makes them want to do this. I think there is more to this than us outsiders see.
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I'm very much hoping that the Lower South East doesn't get attacked by a
Black Tuesday style wildfire this coming fire season... however should a fire like Black Tuesday occur in the LSE lessons learned from Ash Wednesday & Eyre Peninsula will help South East fire crews avert another tragic bushfire from happening
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Glad to hear the organisation is there for you :-)
I don't think many of us really understand how horrendous it must be living and working in your community at the moment.
Stay strong.
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Ask yourself why these vollys are wanting to sue the CFS. What went so terribly wrong that makes them want to do this. I think there is more to this than us outsiders see.
David,
We ask ourselves often why they are seeking compensation..I believe as I have said previously, it is linked to their own guilt about what they did or DIDN'T do themselves on the day...I don't believe that they have been really informed of what could happen..I know that the insurance companies will be asking for their money back IF they ever won it...you may also find that some of them aren't insured and are using it as an avenue to generate money...
the bloke leading the group wasn't even here on the day..he was holidaying in QLD..so how is he in a position to comment??
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the bloke leading the group wasn't even here on the day..he was holidaying in QLD..so how is he in a position to comment??
Good point that!!
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Does anyone know if there is a regular "Official" update posted on the web of the inquries proceedings.
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Del,
The CFS Home page does have some updates but unfortunately, they have to be super careful with what goes on there...they can't be seen to be giving any opinion or slant on the proceedings..otherwise they can be charged...
A strong tip, don't bother relying on the media for any accuracy...their stories tend to have about 1% fact and the rest a fairytale..
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I think it is better to wait and see what the coroner says and his full report,remember we are CFS members and what we say in here can and could have ill feelings to such a chat/talk room. What people say on the stand is there own view and we should not take it to heart what is said. Time will heal the wounds and in time the community will learn that we can't be at your house/farm 24/7 over summer.
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I agree totally...the one thing that everyone could take from the whole experience is to look at their own properties and preparedness..the expectation that we will and can be everywhere is unrealistic.
It's too easy to leave it to CFS and then blame us if we don't deliver (which is RARE!)
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The prevention message for the past decade - Will you Survive! Are you prepared! Have a bushfire action plan!
Maybe it's a true reflection of the Australian culture - "it won't happen to me" or "she'll be right jack"
Unfortunately look back through time - Ash Wednesday (I & II), NSW (numerous) Victoria and there is a common thread - the fire agencies promote initial self help, they are open and inform that they have limited numbers and resources and that the best method is prevention.
Unfortunately for many in CFS, the community (or sections there of) haven't heeded this information and now are looking for an out!
My thoughs go to the many CFS people who are going through the trying coronial process at the moment and we all trust and hope that the results will benefit all - the community, the public at large and the men and women who volunteer their time to protect their communities.
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General non specific discussion is welcome here. Please do not discuss specifics of this incident or speculate on the content or outcome of any enquiry.
Discussion can include any information that is public knowledge and is based in fact. Otherwise save it for conversation at the station.
This is to protect you and this site.
Thanks
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U mean save it for the shed...
:lol:
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U mean save it for the shed...
You mean you don't have a multi story, glass doored station complete with swimming pool and gym? :P
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Any one read the latest in todays paper... About what the gentleman in the article claims was said to him by an SES member.. ?
I don't know what was said on the day, I wasn't there, but I find it kind of unbelievable that any member of any agency would say such a thing.....
For those that may not know what I am referring to, it is on pg 11 of todays paper.
Note: (I am not saying the supposed "unknown" member did or did not say what was claimed in the article, am simply stating a personal opinion, which cannot be endorsed in any public comment/publication).
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hahaha... on the other hand did you read what was said in the hills and valley messenger???
qouted "Dale Thompson Sturt CFS Deputy Group Leader"
"dont rely on us" and " dont depend on us: CFS"
just the message we want to send out to the public... especially after one of the worst fire seasons in a while...
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I imagine the context would have been, be self sufficent and don't expect a fire truck at your house in a big event. Because CFS nor MFS can guarantee a truck at each home. I'm sure Dale is not saying that CFS is unreliable. But is reminding people that they must take some of the responsibilty and prepare for the fire season.
Didn't read the article though. :-D
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i too am sure thats what he meant firefrog... (gramma?) but it sure didnt come across like that...
IMHO; possibly one of the worst things to do just prior to fire season.
edit: will try to find an electronic version of the article
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looks like they dont have the paper online...
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back on topic bout the Black Tuesday article... Obviously no one saw it / has any input.. ??
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Any chance you could copy a quote out for us strikeathird? (as long as its legal etc)
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medevac you should work for the news or tabloid with comments like that.
I have read the article. Dale was speaking at a forum for local residents and said to the people that in the Sturt Group we look after about 20000 residents and have 11 fire appliance to cover the area, you do the maths.
Basically he was saying to them have a fire plan and don't rely on us to be at your place.
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Any chance you could copy a quote out for us strikeathird? (as long as its legal etc)
To quote what was printed in the public newspaper would be perfectly legal, no worries about that.. finding the electronic format is a little harder... Seems everone is talking bout dales comment now... Which has been blown out of proportion like most things, so I think we just drop it...
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Hi All,
I just thought that i would comment on people thinking that CFS will cover their homes. In our group we only have 8 capable bush fire fighting appliances. If we have an appliance at each house at a fire, who will fight the fire? Residents have been told about this and they do not seem to care.
On another note about the Eyre Pen. fires if you think what the CFS did the night before when they were trying to contain those fires. I forget exeactly CFS rules but i think it is something like 5 hours that you are allowed to be on the fireground for at a time. How close is the next briagade over there, it is almost the same time for us to get 4 full group strike teams here as it takes to get one striketeam here. With such a vast area with little resources it just doesnt work.
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On another note about the Eyre Pen. fires if you think what the CFS did the night before when they were trying to contain those fires. I forget exeactly CFS rules but i think it is something like 5 hours that you are allowed to be on the fireground for at a time. How close is the next briagade over there, it is almost the same time for us to get 4 full group strike teams here as it takes to get one striketeam here. With such a vast area with little resources it just doesnt work.
Sam,
Our group has 16 brigades..within 1.5hrs of the fire starting, all appliances in our group were committed and we had a strike team from the adjoining group helping...you are right...any strike team further than that is at least 1.5hrs away...as for shift length...they shouldn't be longer than 12hrs..
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And after that you should have a minimum of 8 hours off. (Not including the 2 hours to drive back to the staging area as off..!!)
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Oh, please!
What was the SES vollie supposed to have said?
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Hi All
We have decided to lock this topic due to the ongoing nature of the equiry. We also removed a few posts discussing an apparent news paper article, this was done as a precaution, once again due to the ongoing nature of the enquiry.
I am happy for articles like this to be discussed so long as the article is posted along with the discussion.
Hope you all understand. :-)