SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: fire03rescue on January 15, 2007, 10:41:32 AM
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Why don't command cars have burn over curtains??
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Because in command cars are the big wig's and red hats whom we firefighters dont like so we want them to fry if it gets a bit warm, why else...
(yes IM joking :roll: )
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Im assuming command cars are not meant to get into areas where frontline fire fighting will be undertaken.. But it is a valid question, there are the occasions where command cars goes where they shouldn't and have a very real chance of getting fried !!
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We can only assume everyone including GO's etc have done deadman zone training.I have seen where they went the other night and not a good example :-o
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All of our Groupies do burnover traingin each year - I think they undertake it in both the Group vehicle, and also in an appliance.
As I understand it, anyone on the fireground should have completed their burn over training
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Maybe it's just not practical to have curtains in command cars... They get in the way enough on the trucks - they'd probably be even worse in a car...
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The command cars generally get changed over pretty regularly now with the SA govt. Not saying that lives arent worth the cost but you know.
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When you think about it, they have no water, nil protection (bar maybe a 2.5kg dry chem).. and are fitted out with a heap of radios, and the people who are meant to be running an incident.. I think it would be unsafe to see them in area's where active firefighting would be taking place.. The conditions would be too dangerous for the vehicle/crew.. - Much like a 2wd doesn't go on a 4x4 track... - A command car shouldn't be exposed to those conditions..
In saying that, doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't be fitted.. ;)
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I gather one or two command cars had their paint singed on Wednesday afternoon. Especially on Cut Hill Rd when the wind change arrived... Easy to say in theory that they shouldn't be in harm's way, but given our roadsides have been given over as nature reserves & reveg sites, very easy for a 'safe' spot to go pear-shaped.
I guess no-one has really thought about it.
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I think a few appliances and command car were caught when the wind changed and the speed.
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I know this isn't exactly the safest option but we should not forget here that group cars are just 4wd's and can get out of areas and dangerous situations a heck of a lot quicker that the trucks.
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But in saying that, they are alot worse off if caught, or if they can't get out of such areas..
In all honesty I think it is a much safer option for them to stay out of the "Hot zone" I guess you could call it...
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Realistically its not feasible to put curtains in command vehicles. Well not in the manner of how they are in the trucks anyway. As someone said before they get in the way in the trucks, think what it would be like in the cab of a 4x4.
As long as they have a big woollen blanket for protection thats better then nothing.
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Maybe it's just not practical to have curtains in command cars... They get in the way enough on the trucks - they'd probably be even worse in a car...
Eh?? <Scratching head...>
Can't say I've experienced this.
How so ?
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The purpose of a "command car" is to setup "forward or incident control" with an overview preferably of the job ie hill top.
This is to direct resources, provide sitreps to group base,region etc,establish VHF fireground channel and sectors on the fireground,and liasing with incoming strike teams,and run a log of the incident.
They shouldnt be in an area where a fire can impact the crews working in that vehicle, and any GO/DGO worth their salt would know that and not place themselves in that position.
True,they might have the speed etc to escape but what if there is no safe exit :-o
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mmm until your using it as a strike team leaders vehicle and it is right in there near appliances...
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Perhaps all command vehicles need to have large RED woolen blankets, it wont help em but make it a lot easier to locate em after the incident :evil:.
Medevacs right, as strike team leaders, command vehicles are right in the thick of it!
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You necrophiliac Jaff!
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Ever tried to bust thru a cargo barrier from the front of a Command Car to pull the curtains down in the back? :-P
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just use the command car Water pistol dammit.
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a good strike team leader will go ahead of their team sussing out all those little places where we know we have to go.....but don't know whats at the other end of - can we turn around?, is there a safe place to stand and deliver?, are there properties we cant see? A strike team leaders vehicle is the Strike Teams eyes and ears, sitting them away from the action located in a single location is a poor utilisation of them. It follows logicaly, that they might get into places where they get caught....as might we all, despite our best efforts and judgement - simple self protective devices like curtains and blankies should be obligatory
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Guys my thoughts, curtains would be a pain in normal curcumstances,(a couple have already said this) yep you cant get through a cargo barrier, generally nobody in the back anyway. They do have a specific burn over drill for command cars that involves getting down low under the woolen blankets that are kept in command cars.
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Guys my thoughts, curtains would be a pain in normal curcumstances,(a couple have already said this) yep you cant get through a cargo barrier, generally nobody in the back anyway. They do have a specific burn over drill for command cars that involves getting down low under the woolen blankets that are kept in command cars.
The plan also involves getting your puckered lips within kissing distance of your soon to be tanned, lily white arse! :-D
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They do have a specific burn over drill for command cars that involves getting down low under the woolen blankets that are kept in command cars.
that are usually kept in the rear cargo compartment that you cant access from inside the vehicle......risk assess that puppy :evil:
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Command cars should not be too close to the hot stuff but dont all cars have blankets in the rear just in case they get caught out??curtains would be a pain due to the small space that is inside the car....
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Ok, no more Cruisers, Prado's, Navara's etc..... how about mini-FireKings???
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Don't most command car drivers use the standard "Hammer down" SOP?
Fire never caught Colin McRae... (although a helicopter did...)
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to all those who reckon that burnover curtains are a pain in their vehicles and restrict visibility....have u tried modifying them to lie flat along the roof and be a pull down item ...instead of having them rolled up like a blind? Bit of velcro on the roof lining and a couple of other places and its all good. Same would be said for command cars....no restricted vision.
Little bit of time spent making things work for you can be well spent
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Don't most command car drivers use the standard "Hammer down" SOP?
Fire never caught Colin McRae... (although a helicopter did...)
Lauda.....whats that?......LAUda.......whats that?........LAUDA
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Personally I think fitting Burnover Curtains to command cars is pointless. It gives the occupants a false sense of security.
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Personally I think fitting Burnover Curtains to command cars is pointless. It gives the occupants a false sense of security.
hahahahahah....maybe u should go look at some of the blog stuff from the Victorian fires.....in those instances, any sense of security would be great.
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Personally I think fitting Burnover Curtains to command cars is pointless. It gives the occupants a false sense of security.
You're so right, let the occupants be be positive..........They,re toast :evil:
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Personally I think fitting Burnover Curtains to command cars is pointless. It gives the occupants a false sense of security.
You would know...
How is being a rolling fire front that swallows the meek treating you?
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hmmm...on a slightly off (but related) topic.....anyone else picked up on the no more Landcruisers for Command cars thing?.....thank Fleet SA for another stunning policy in splendid isolation
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It's not entirely State Fleet's decision...more about what the Government has imposed upon them.
So it's Mitsubishi Pajeros, and Toyota Prados instead.....
Pip
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A command vehicle fitted with Burnover Curtains is only marginally safer than a standard vehicle. I think "Safety First" is a better option.
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hmmm...on a slightly off (but related) topic.....anyone else picked up on the no more Landcruisers for Command cars thing?.....thank Fleet SA for another stunning policy in splendid isolation
It's all about the luxury car tax thing isn't it - have you checked the retail on one of those these days....
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Basic Landcruiser these days is atleast 80K+ a touch dear for a fleet car.
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A command vehicle fitted with Burnover Curtains is only marginally safer than a standard vehicle. I think "Safety First" is a better option.
So if its
safer, and you happen to get caught, then why not fit them? .. Marginally safer, speaks for itself. Its safer!
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Personally I think fitting Burnover Curtains to command cars is pointless. It gives the occupants a false sense of security.
Same can be argued about our truck cabs. Only slighly more internal volume but quite
a lot more exposed surface area. Just as much plastics in the cab. As interstate
experience has shown, it takes most, or all of, a full tank of water to effectively
defend a truck. The 20% rule is merely bottom-covering by HQ (need to be seen to be doing "something".)
cheers
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I think its important to remember that no firefighters were lost on Black Saturday. In some cases this was due to luck but improved training, tankers and safety first firefighting since the Linton Tragedy played crucial roles
Below is some links to CSIRO research into vehicle burnovers (You've probably already seen it). While no vehicles were fitted with radiant heat curtains, Toxic Gases were a greater concern than thermal limits.
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/research/d11/vehicle.html (http://www.bushfirecrc.com/research/d11/vehicle.html)
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/downloads/Conference-paper-vehicle-burnover-final.pdf (http://www.bushfirecrc.com/downloads/Conference-paper-vehicle-burnover-final.pdf)
I'm sorry for any misinterpretations
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hmmm...on a slightly off (but related) topic.....anyone else picked up on the no more Landcruisers for Command cars thing?.....thank Fleet SA for another stunning policy in splendid isolation
It's all about the luxury car tax thing isn't it - have you checked the retail on one of those these days....
nah...they are V8s....and policy now is that Fleet SA dont do V8s.
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I think its important to remember that no firefighters were lost on Black Saturday. In some cases this was due to luck but better training, tankers and safety first firefighting played crucial roles.
Below is some links to CSIRO research into vehicle burnovers (You've probably already seen it). While no vehicles were fitted with radiant heat curtains, Toxic Gases were a greater concern than thermal limits.
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/research/d11/vehicle.html (http://www.bushfirecrc.com/research/d11/vehicle.html)
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/downloads/Conference-paper-vehicle-burnover-final.pdf (http://www.bushfirecrc.com/downloads/Conference-paper-vehicle-burnover-final.pdf)
So from that you can assume the Water cooling effect a Halo system does wonders over a Burnover Curtain system.
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hmmm...on a slightly off (but related) topic.....anyone else picked up on the no more Landcruisers for Command cars thing?.....thank Fleet SA for another stunning policy in splendid isolation
It's all about the luxury car tax thing isn't it - have you checked the retail on one of those these days....
nah...they are V8s....and policy now is that Fleet SA dont do V8s.
nothing to do with V8's - it is all about the "luxury car tax" - public servants can't possibly drive expensive (sic) cars when they are public servants......
....and from one public servant to all of you voluntary public servans - i need to formally ask you all to comply with Kevin's request
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25156579-2682,00.html
i thank you in anticipation.......
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makes me wonder why nissan patrols are not on offer for command cars as they have not yet gone stupidly expensive like the landcruiser has.
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The need for passenger side air bags has apparentley taken a few suitable vehicles out of the command car pool, landcruiser workmate is one that comes to mind.
Apparentley its not acceptable to be injured in an accident, but getting toasted is okay......go figure :|
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I think its important to remember that no firefighters were lost on Black Saturday. In some cases this was due to luck but better training, tankers and safety first firefighting played crucial roles.
firstly....you may want to review your opening statement out of respect for the one that did in the later days; the campaign and firefighting (and burnovers) continued over many days!
secondly, I take it you didnt go to Victoria did you? The material state of the majority of their Tanker Fleet (that I witnessed) is abysmal. We had one that had no burnover protection at all for the crew deck, no roll down curtain, no blankie, no nothing. Their later build appliances are better, but still stowed much more poorly than ours.
Additionally, read the blogs of the crews that were put up in this forum previously and tell me if u think (seriously) they reflect a safety first attitude. It's not a criticism.....in fact I'm in awe of what they did....but it certainly wasnt a SAFETY FIRST attitude. Staying on the back of your tanker fighting any form of approaching fire ISN'T safety first....its lazy
Better training?....again....not from what I saw
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I'm sorry for any misinterpretations in my last post. I've tried to correct the errors.
Below is a link to a BushfireCRC presentation on the development of the Tanker Protection Spray System and the testing that was carried out
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/publications/downloads/D2.5_nichols,d_perth04.pdf (http://www.bushfirecrc.com/publications/downloads/D2.5_nichols,d_perth04.pdf)
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In all honesty I think it is a much safer option for them to stay out of the "Hot zone" I guess you could call it...
Ever tried to get a GO to do that? It ain't easy
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(http://images.slashdot.org/articles/08/08/22/0250222-1.png)
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Good find Zippy - that landowner clearly hasn't done his or her bushfire preparation. That area will be a fire trap in summer!
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topic?....topic??...anyone seen a topic round here?
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it needed to be shown teddy lol....
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In all honesty I think it is a much safer option for them to stay out of the "Hot zone" I guess you could call it...
Ever tried to get a GO to do that? It ain't easy
You voted them in, didn't you?