SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: aust_fire1 on December 07, 2006, 09:35:45 AM
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We go on Task Forces all over the State & Interstate.
What are the problems we have when Tasking.
Is it the food or lack of it.
Is it the sitting around all day.
Is it the long hours.
Is it the Lack of Infomation.
Is it the extremely short notice to Task to an incident.
Is it the sleeping arrangements.
Is it leaving your appliance behind at the incident for others to use.
Is it being told to crew an appliance other than your own when your unit is also there.
Is it going to an unfamiliar area and no local rep is assigned to your task force to assist your team in arriving. Telling you about all the hidden obsticles that only a local will know about.
Or anything at all.
OK, lets get started
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Leaving a appliance behind for others to crew is an issue i have, because some people think oh it's not from our brigade so who cares what we do to it!!!
And being told to go somewhere and being expected to know where to go, i fully agree that there should be a local escort to get you where you need to go without the stuff ups and the people who think they know where they going but don't.
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Short notice. For example Waikerie fires: the fire has been going for a few days, paged at 1600 to be at Blanchetown by 1800. Surely more forward planning for this type of event can take place? Why couldnt they page at say 10:00 am for 18:00, giving people more time to organise themselves?
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doing nothing and being having unorganised people back at bases. Drove around doing nothing for ages on one recent strike team then eventually did somethihg that had been suggested int he morning and been knoced back.
Short ntoice doesnt affect me that much personally howvever for this stirke team I had about 10mins to get my stuff and get to the station in 15 mins, was a rush but alright really.
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Organization and strategy. Unfortunately common sense isn't as common as one would hope, which is reflected quite clearly in large operations.
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leaving the appliance behind.... hate it. our appliance that we take on "short" strike teams, is not the sort that anyone can just go up to and now how to work the ins and outs of it..
also hate getting there and sitting at a staging point for 1/2 an hour while its bloddy obvious where we should be and what we should be doing... (for example; watching a fire burn unchecked over a hill towards vineyards...)
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Short notice like getting paged at 1500 hrs and have to be at Cape Jervis by 1800 hrs to catch the ferry.
Incoming strike teams not going to fireground channel as nominated, or simply not talking to the sector commanders because they are on the wrong talkgroup.
Strike team deployment is normally a 12 hour duration yet many have whinged after being there for 4 hours...if you put your hand up expect at least 12 hours on the fireground :-D
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Mainly the sitting around doing nothing.
And being the unlucky strike team that leaves the station at 19:00 one night and then spends the night freezing supposedly monitoring a nonexistent fire without coffee and warm drinks being sent out. And not getting home until 9:30 the next day.
In short OIC who doesn’t know what the fire is doing.
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Strike teams when you dont get too see the fireground during the day.
I understand its not always possible but where possible it should be a priority as it helps improve firefighter safety greatly as we have a general idea of the area.
Sitting around and doing nothing isnt great. A crew from our station spent the day at Ngarkat. Never moved from the spot where they first sat. If they werent fed about 3/4 the way through the day you would swear they didnt know they were there.
I see people complaining about doing nothing but patrolling an edge. Believe or not this is still called firefighting. Just because your a strike team doesnt mean you will be doing the exciting stuff. Someone has to do it and its usually the locals that will attend to the more serious stuff as they already know the area etc.
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Hey if you dont want to go, stay home and protect your own patch.
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Volunteers are willing to help on strike teams. Its just they dont like getting screwed around when they do offer there help.
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haha exactly ath, whingers are a problem too. You volunteered to go you kno what happens ont he teams so dont complain, someone else probably didnt get to go cause you went. (no this isnt directed at those who replied to this thread or who started it cause I also contributed :-P ) Sitting around doing nothing can be fun, crap jokes become hilarious for one thing... :mrgreen:
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Being rung at 11 at night to be told to organise crews to task at 4 in the morning.(Boy, do I make friends ha ha)
To be told that we must sit and wait ( no smoke in sight)
To get up at 4 in the morning and Travel for 4 hrs to find out that there was no Time for breakfast when you got to the staging area because you are told to rush to a certain sector to then just sit and wait for 6 hrs and do nothing.
And when you do go and work extremely hard for half the day to find that there has been no food organised or to find that when food arrives it is sandwiches put in a foam box to find that the contents of the sandwiches have bled thru the bread. What about using an esky with some cool blocks in it.
To find that you must leave your appliance park on roadways over night to find equipment missing or tampered with the next day after you sleep.
To find that half the task force must sleep in one town and the other half must travel another 45km's to sleep.(What happens if you have to task somewhere quickly during the night.)
I believe that a task force should all be at least in the same town or area when sleeping etc
To find that when they do eventually supply food on the fire ground, that nobody remembers to bring out ice for cooling drinks.
I believe that each task force should be supplied with a local farmer or someone who has good knowledge of local terrain, fire tracks, roads etc ( At least for the first day of each task force entering the district)
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Oh, dont get me wrong, I love to task. I would never say no.
But lets look after the hundreds of volleys that do go on these taskings.
And yes, we do somehow turn a bad task into a great time with all the funny stories and crap jokes that members tell us.
And most of all, i have made some great new friends everytime I go.
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Just to make a positive comment, I will quite happily attend ANY strike team where Onkaparinga group have control of logistics... After working hard, really good food makes a nice end to the day! :wink:
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Well i would have to say short notice is one of the killers this fire season,if you wont people to go then you need to page early,its silly that we page at 1400hrs for crews to do a night shift in region 3 and you have to be on the bus at 1500hrs... Now what happend to the work hour rule where you could only do so many hours then have to be of the fire ground??? The other issue is catering in this day and age we still get it wrong One of of brigade members has a great idea and may be we need to look at it.... The army have large scale mobile kitchens that are able to be set up and feed up to 3000 people per day.. So why not call them in??? Its about time that on large scale fire's we started to look after the troops and that way they will come back for sure....
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A mobile kitchen sounds good.. If each task force has 30+ members at each location, surely the kitchen is an option..
I wonder how much it costs CFS everytime we call The Salvo's to supply meals at the staging areas.
And that kitchen is only ever based at staging.
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I think CFS should buy some port-a-potty's and put them out near the fire ground i'm not real keen dumpin in the bush especially around our camera happy mob :lol:
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Hey Mun...You have to eat first to have a reason to dump, or is the porta-potty to sit on and wait for the food..ha ha :lol:
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come on Alan if we did not take photos we would never see what goes on...This year the DSE went and bought some mobile kitchens for the long summer ahead.as for the salvos they do a good job but they can not do long duration jobs. The local unit at Millicent has been flat out. The Naracoorte brigade has a auxiliary that is able to cater and we also have a catering trailer... But I would like to see that some where in each region there is a catering appliance same as narre warren CFA have.... Able to provide a good feed and water hole not only at large jobs but also at MVA/hazmat anything really where you will be there for a long time.
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Hey...It was Mun talking about the cameras... I am the one that takes the pics. Mun and I are in the same group.
:-DSmile next time I click a pic mun
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true about the food, at onka gorge the other night we didn't even know anyone had been fed until east torrens car1 pulled up next to us with some very cold Big Mac's and fries really regretted eating those at 4am. :roll:
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hey dont complain about cold until youve eaten a cold hotdog with cold bacon, cold bread and cold cheese (no this wasnt CFS but paid $4 andf wasnt gonna waste it...)
Riverland food was great, kinda cold schnitzel and chip[s but bearable and very nice and some good sangers from the Sandwicxh Entity Service.
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I also find it hard in this day and age with T cards how the hell we can still lose appliances and members on the fire ground it does happen.
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Funny you should bring up the T-Cards 5271. We tasked for 3 days to the Riverland and filled out 5 T-Cards all up.
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Not sure if CFA are still using it but bar coding was the way to go on large scale jobs worked well and you where able to see who/what and where everyone was....
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Not heard of bar coding but why not try it.
If they barcode my butt, everytime I walk out of Woolworths the barcode detector would go off and cost me $5.00 a kilo. :-D
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No-one asked for T-Cards at the Onka Gorge either for that matter :-o
Then again incoming strike teams were on the wrong channel as well :evil:
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The Mundoo Group responded as a rolling task force. We arrived at Blewett Springs station and we filled out the T Card straight away. Hey and guess what...we only had to fill out one.. :-D
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mmm all our appliances gave Tcards to the strike team leader...
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Hmmm, Well I wonder how many brigades or groups or what ever actually do debriefings after they have attended incidents. :x
I wonder how many actually get briefed before they go on to the fire ground. :x
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Debrief for Onka Gorge fire is on Thursday night at Mawson Base
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well i hope they let all the task force commanders know..
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I reckon we should try using the army and their mobile kitchen...even if they were used in rotation with Salvos etc...have them located at staging...or nearby ..would make logistics much easier :?
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how quickly can the army kitchen be deployed? and also does it need PM approval to be used like the army?
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Pm must approve the deloyment of the army and that would also be its catering unit,from the time they are called they can once on site be set up and cooking for 3000 in under 3hours.....thats from a friend in the army.
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Hmmm, Well I wonder how many brigades or groups or what ever actually do debriefings after they have attended incidents. :x
we do brigade debriefs but I've never been to a larger one. R1 had organised one after the last KI deployment but cancelled it at the last minute and have never rescheduled it (to my knowledge anyway!). It's far too late now anyway, it needs to be done within a few days (week at the max) after the event. I know of the onka/mawson debrief from seeing it here and the pager site but an invite has never come down the chain to those in my group (again: to my knowledge anyway).
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Do people think that it is odd that no CFS/MFS personnel have gone to Victoria?? They are even talking about getting people from the US.
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it's probably because every1 wants to protect their own turf judging by the amount of fires that hav been through!!!
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Odd but strange. I was told that they had tried to find 60 volunteers to go to Vic but couldn't as everyone wanted to stay. But I know I was never asked and from this would assume that many others weren't asked either.
Mabey they should put out a state wide pager message that way 60 or so people might come without straining the local resources.
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i spoke to a mate in the CFA and he said they had asked for help from CFS but no one has come over yet,surely we could get crews to go would not need appliances as there are heaps of local units both tankers and pumpers on the ground.. I say do a state page and see who wants to go... I would love to go for a trip back home for a few days.....
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Yeah i believe it maybe time we helped out seeing as things have calmed down a bit here.
But i do believe there should be 1 rule
Only 1 person from each brigade is allowed to go as this would no reduce the response of local crews to fires. Unless there wasnt enough people then maybe 2 people from each brigade.
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Sounds good cam ,you ring the region and see what they say...... :roll:
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But should we send crews interstate, when we can't get enough crews to cover strike teams in our own state....? :|
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I think it is time to take a look at Task Forces.
What does a Task force consist of now?
(Due to the ammount of 4x4 Landcruiser type units available, should they be cosidered as task force vehicles)
Is it time to do away with Group Task Forces
(Maybe we should be doing composit crews; eg 1 crew member per brigade to create a crew per group with only 1 vehicle per group going at a time) (A composit Task Force the same as was done for the Riverland recently)
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I have to agree its hard to get a strike team,this year and I am not sure why but for the first time ever region 5 has not been able to fill a strike team to go region 3.. I think what should happen is a group page for one or two members per brigade to crew a composite appliances from with in the group/region. Not only does naracoorte mann the group base but those that go in the command car as driver or scribe.....
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It's a hard thing...I agree if you only take a handful from each group but also factor in the unavailability of others due to harvest, holidays etc...you could easily leave yourself short staffed and then when they return they are too tired to be avail for a couple of days as well...
It's been hard/easy for us in Region 6 as we are so far away...and we probably get grace for the hard time during Black tuesday...saying that though, we did send a strike team to Waikerie a couple of weeks ago..
I've personally been on strike teams but am not that keen this season...not yet anyway...
PS it's RAINING here today...yes RAINING>...can't remember the last time it RAINED!! :-D
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Nah we still need to have a strike team from a group but mabey make it easier to combine crews in the groups. or just do what the mets do and run with four.
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At the riverland strike team we had group combined a crew and only ran with 4 in a 14 unit. It was a perfect amount of people, enough to get all tasks done and leave room for bags and mvement etc. You dont need 6 people when 4 is sufficient.
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It's a hard thing...I agree if you only take a handful from each group but also factor in the unavailability of others due to harvest, holidays etc...you could easily leave yourself short staffed and then when they return they are too tired to be avail for a couple of days as well...
It's been hard/easy for us in Region 6 as we are so far away...and we probably get grace for the hard time during Black tuesday...saying that though, we did send a strike team to Waikerie a couple of weeks ago..
I've personally been on strike teams but am not that keen this season...not yet anyway...
PS it's RAINING here today...yes RAINING>...can't remember the last time it RAINED!! :-D
Rain?? What's Rain??
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It's a hard thing...I agree if you only take a handful from each group but also factor in the unavailability of others due to harvest, holidays etc...you could easily leave yourself short staffed and then when they return they are too tired to be avail for a couple of days as well...
It's been hard/easy for us in Region 6 as we are so far away...and we probably get grace for the hard time during Black tuesday...saying that though, we did send a strike team to Waikerie a couple of weeks ago..
I've personally been on strike teams but am not that keen this season...not yet anyway...
PS it's RAINING here today...yes RAINING>...can't remember the last time it RAINED!! :-D
Rain?? What's Rain??
Raining in the Adelaide CBD for the past hour plus. Light drizzle with 0.8mm fallen since 9am
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We were fortunate enough to have 14mm of rain...it was great...settled the dust, watered the plants and greatly reduced the fire threat...for a day.. :lol:
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had 2.5mm
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0.4mm Rain. Must have stayed north...You guys need it more then we need it.
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I am Curious to know if all responding appliances going on taskings are equipped with a Comfort Kit or Ration Pack. If so what sort of things does it have.
Ours has the following
Bake Beans x2, Spag x2,
Instant Soup x2, Biscuits (pack), Barley Sugar,
Musseli Bars x10, sugar, coffee, tea, milk,
Kettle, 2 burner camp stove
plus all of the extra little bits, eg cups, spoons etc.
Like to hear what you carry, if anything.
Maybe there are better options than what we take
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Both our appliances are equipped with the above items
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Would be interesting to know how many command vehicles or groups have a CFS regional map book for each region. Maybe at least 1 vehicle per group should have at least a regional map book for each region, seeing we go all over the state
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that would be nice but I cant see CFS coming to the party on that,Once you are sent into another region and you make your way to the ICC ot stage area you should be given a local map(copy)...You should try getting a copy of the new CFA map books they cost $65:00 each and we have to pay for them unless we can work out a deal :roll:
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There was a command vehicle at Waikerie that had a copy of each region CFS map book. Cant remember which one.. You would think that each Group could afford at least 1 set each...Oh well
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We allways have a box of snacks on our truck even if its a quick callout. If we would like we have a snack when ever, it contains muesli bars, fruit bars, lollies, LCM bars, small pk chips, biscuits, cherry ripes,violate crumbles ect. munchies for all. Then when needed we put on the ration packs and are they full of food. :-D
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Our group went and bought the same ration packs that the CFA use and so far all our group crews have enjoyed them and we are also looking at having those pre heat food packs that where handed out in NSW sometime ago. Our 34 also has a ration box that has the same as port elliot with out the kettle.....
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We always carry some food on the truck in winter it is a smaller box than summer and often the group gives us a pack specifically for the strike team.
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we always carry ration packs year round on both trucks.
they include some small snacks, and also a 'hot pack' in each bag... one per crew member.... we also have the fridges full of water bottles and powerade permanently on the trucks as well as cooler bags for each truck that we grab from the fridge before leaving.... ya never know when that command car full of drinks is finally gonna make its way around to ya ;)
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Whats a hot pack and how does it get hot with no oven or microwave
(no put it in the fire jokes please :-P :lol: IM going with the hypothesis of sitting on ya donkey with no fore :-) )
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Whats a hot pack and how does it get hot with no oven or microwave
(no put it in the fire jokes please :-P :lol: IM going with the hypothesis of sitting on ya filtered with no fore :-) )
A dehydrated pack which gets heated by a chemical reaction, resulting in a nice warm meal,and dont taste that bad either :wink:
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Sweet, whats in 'em?
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Sweet, whats in 'em?
Last one I had was something like beef stroganoff or similar
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We were fairly busy at Mt Bold with all vehicles there doing good work
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jeeze when we end up with nothing to do, then we go and find something (there's always hotspots around somewhere or more mopping up) rather than just sit around.
maybe talk to the captain of the brigade concerned? Is it really one whole brigade that's slack, could it just be one person that keeps ending up as OIC of their truck?
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I hear what you are saying Darius. To the 1st part of your answer thats what we do. We hardly ever stop.
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I hear what you are saying Darius. To the 1st part of your answer thats what we do. We hardly ever stop.
The 2nd part is the problem. The brigade Captain is OIC of the appliance each time.
Hasnt anyone told him that is what you have lieutenants for to share the work :evil:
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at the mount bold fire we had to fill in 3 sets of T CARDS as they went missing at the staging area.....
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Night Shift.
What do you do if everytime we are called out as a stike team for night shift that you end up with a brigade that does not pull their weight. The last 3 times we have been called, a particular brigade just loves to hide in the dark and do nothing.
Never had this happen. My strike team leaders have always been across what each appliance is up to & seen that all pull their weight.
Far more common is what happened at Mt.Bold Thursday night when the IMT or DivCom seemed to have no idea & no ideas. About 7 strike teams plus heaps of DEH crews, but seemed like only 2 teams plus the DEH crews were given work to do. And from the several places where we sat and listened or watched, those few people were being flogged.
Our STL kept making offers to do this, that or the other thing, but was consistently refused - not even a "we're holding you in reserve as ready-response." In a 12 hr shift we were given only 2hrs work blacking out an area that had already been made fairly safe. Other strike teams seemed to be similarly un-used.
Many in my ST are so angry at this abuse of our time that we have refused to be available for any further Mt.Bold activity. Really hard to justify non-attendance or being a zombie at work next day on the grounds of "spent all night out gazing at the stars".
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In contrast, Friday night had not much to do, but all crews were kept busy. I feel the night went really well! These were the last strike teams into the area.
Had a thermal imager walking the edge to identify any spots of concern.
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StopCallKing We have been lucky for night shift work. We have worked from dusk till dawn everytime we go out. It is a long night but certainly goes quick when you are busy.
5271rescue We had to task without a strike team leader. So I filled out a T-Card for our appliance to be told that the T-Card was no good. It had to be a task force T-Card. They didnt even know that the 4 appliances from our group were going to be there, and they called us. They even indicated that a command vehicle was not required. We ended up selecting a leader from the appliances, then spent another hour finding a spare command vehicle at Kangarilla.
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may be its time for a review or update away from the T CARD system and once again we see strike teams rolling up and no one was aware they were coming along....We must have passed you pommy as you guys were coming into the staging area we were going home..A nice 4 hour drive.....
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In contrast, Friday night had not much to do, but all crews were kept busy. I feel the night went really well! These were the last strike teams into the area.
Had a thermal imager walking the edge to identify any spots of concern.
so you were there too then, I went Wed evening (initial response) then friday night shift. For the friday, apart from a fairly long hanging around at Kangarilla before being sent out we did useful work all night.
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That i was.... Best part is we got to go home early ;) Hard work does have some benifits. hehe
Was there wed night (0000 - 0900)..... they sent us to do asset protection 5Kms from the fire front.... fire was never going to reach that point! 3Hrs later, and a brief question from IMT about what we were doing and where we were doing it, found us re-tasked to gate 32. were kept happily occupied from that point forth...
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While there were a number of complaints from the fire ground (and many deserved ones...) there are also things that the IMT have problems with...like Strike team leaders / Sector commanders, deciding that they don't like the channels they have been given, so they just go ahead and pick their own..... that creates problems for the IMT......
I am not sure who requested all the strike teams form all over the state, but it would seem someone got a bit excited, and called in the world...and then had a number of them sitting around for considerable time doing nothing... :-(
It is always a difficult thing to balance - having enough appliances vs too many.....
Pip
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Pip,
what should have taken place with all the incoming strike teams is that they should have been sent to areas on the fireground where local crews had been hard at work.local crews should have been stood down for a good rest rather than change them over and send the appliances with a fresh crew out... was it a over kill or just this is going to be the norm after the black Tuesday fire... happy to come and help but crews need to be put to good use rather than sit around or do things that the local farmer could have been doing....MY VIEW ONLY... IMT is only as good as the flow of information up and down but only as good as the IC.......
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An interesting point Pip. Are strike teams called in all too readily sometimes?
Certainly a question which got a good thrashing in our truck on the way up & back (we were wondering if the Lofty area crews were calling us in for payback, in regard to the trip they took to the south east for the Burrungle fire - arrived on the fire ground at 1900, spent the night trying to pick out the best christmas tree and went home the next day, as I understand it).
There seems to have been a pretty ordinary response from R5 to strike team requests of late. I'd like to say that people are always willing to help another region, but maybe that's not the case. If crews are going to travel for hours, do they want to feel like they're doing worthwhile & required work? (Oh yes, I know mopping up is worthwhile & required, but it's not quite as exciting or educational!)
I know our crews felt pretty shabby to leave the Lofty strike team to the night shift (when they came to the SE), when we'd only been on the fire ground for about 7 hours, nor had any suggestion been made of us organising our own relief crews.
I've not been part of an IMT so don't know the workings and don't wish to criticise, just a bit of discussion.
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Stopcallking - which Division were you in on Thursday night, I was in the DivCom car that handed over to the incoming DivCom at around midnight - I did feel for him a bit as he had not seen the lay of the land in daylight and those tracks around the Mt Bold land are like a rabbit warren.
There is still no reason not to get people out working though, when we left the guys were waiting for the fire to come out into grassland - not sure if it ever did.
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I was in the IMT on Thursday night, and wasn't part of the organising of strike teams / crews at that time (relief crews had already been arranged.)
We were certainly very conscious of strike teams being giving something meaningful to do when they went out that next morning, and not just sitting around for hours and being fobbed off when they ask for something to do.....
As for strike teams being called / not called - it is always a balance between too many appliances, and not enough.... and it can be a very difficult thing to determine sometimes
Pip
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Stopcallking - which Division were you in on Thursday night, I was in the DivCom car that handed over to the incoming DivCom at around midnight - I did feel for him a bit as he had not seen the lay of the land in daylight and those tracks around the Mt Bold land are like a rabbit warren.
There is still no reason not to get people out working though, when we left the guys were waiting for the fire to come out into grassland - not sure if it ever did.
In Pocock ?Sector?
Arrived Kanga by 19:00 with express instructions to be fed & watered before arrival, for immediate tasking. (Beauty!) Sat at Kanga without tasking nor any hope (it seemed) of tasking while various officers & respected personages wandered around swearing about the complete lack of A Plan for the night. Some of whom have the direct ear of the CO, I might add.
The arrangements at Kanga were excellent by the way. An apparent surfeit of T-cards compared with appliances or strike teams, but... <shrug>
Then around 2030, a break-out up at Pocock forced something to happen.
It seemed all the 30-odd appliances at Kanga were responded to the break-out, which we could hear being controlled as we drove. Also discovered while we drove that the VHF channel allocated to us (VHF-020 I think) *as confirmed by two in my appliance who were at the "response briefing"* is in our mobiles but NOT our portables... Very useful that ! Heard later that in the rush to respond, the incoming DivCom was left behind at Kanga.
Arrived at Pocock on dusk & sat by the side of the road for about an hour. STL directed us onto VHF-055 after negotiation with Sector/Div Command (I assume).
Then we drove drove out into a paddock & waited until 0200 for a backburn that hadn't been lit to come out to us. Lovely clear skies. Lots of satelites & shooting stars.
And a few appliances just over the next rise doing useful things. Many fewer than were parked & idle within 300M of us anyway.
And we were fed. I cannot fault the logistics side of things at any stage of Wednesday or Thursday. Absolutely brilliant. Water, fuel, foam, food, repairs. Whatever. Supplied in abundance as, when, & where needed. :-D
About 0200 we were directed to some short grass to control the northern end of the burn that was about to be lit. Nothing much happened there for a while so we had a game of cricket by headlight & light masts. 8-)
Then at 0230, a swag of DEH vehicles turned up to do the burn, & we sere sent away further north to black out whatever was left of that edge of the break-out 6 hours earlier. There wasn't much left of it - few smouldering stumps well inside the black. The crews before us had done a very good job indeed.
By 0430, that was blacked to 100M in from the edge... yes - 3 full hose lengths. DivCom couldn't give us any further work & wouldn't release us. Which was doubly frustrating because there was so much crying out to be done. So we kipped until 0645 then headed back to Kanga. The three brigade captains on my S/T (that I know of - it was a composite team) - immediately contacted their Group Officers & advised them that their brigades would not participate any further in that fire. Period. :x
A bit of an ati-climax after Wednesday afternoon/evening. And a shocking waste of a lot of peoples' time given that there was something like 30km of edge needing black-out, and 40km of roads needing making safe from falling trees. As I understand it, our STL offered us to do both of these things & was knocked back. :|
So yes, sour grapes. Was a completely useless zombie at work Friday for no good reason other than "we were there". :x
cheers
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But you guys had a good cricket game and was a bit of fun.
Poor planing on the night, I hate it when you have been at work all day then go out at night to do nothing. For the safety of crews you should be released about midnight being up for 24 hours is dangerous
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It always amuses me how often we whine about not being tasked but just sit there waiting. I have seen this happen over and over again.
Why not be proactive and request a tasking. IMT may have overlooked your team in all the busyness. It's not hard to get on the command GRN and get answers.
Now some people do this well I have heard it being done with rational explanations given of the delays.
It really is pointless to arrive and sit on your hands waiting and waiting and saying nothing.
Be part of the solution!
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may be its time for a review or update away from the T CARD system and once again we see strike teams rolling up and no one was aware they were coming along....
For my curiosity, which Ops group were completing CFS Resource tracking and thus the T-Cards at Mt Bold Fires.
Within SES, we had problems running two vehicles from Mawson (meal runs for CFS) and the other six vehicles (Property surveys for SAPOL) from Kangarilla. This is currently being reviewed.
I assume the T-Cards were kept at the Kangarilla Staging area via CFS Region 1 Ops vehicle. But I thought (& this could where I am wrong), the Fire attack was run from Mawson Region base at Morphett Vale.
If my assumption is correct above, then the T-Card information would need to be transferred from Kangarilla to Mawson. Even if this was just at the Strike Team level of information, not individual people information.
This post is not a critism, just trying to learn an Ops system different to the one I normally use.
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Spent new years eve at the Little Desert Fire north of Naracoorte. Drove 2.5 hours to get there got told there is no water available so waste your tank of water and go home! Very annoying!
Meanwhile in my opinion the control lines that were in place werent sufficient as there was a lot of fire activity at the control edge and it wouldnt have taken much to jump the lines. So instead of doing the job properly and mopping up at least 30 metres in from the lines we pissed on a couple of fence posts, stopped a small flare up and went home.
From the radio chatter we heard on the way up we were never required and they didnt know we were coming until we were nearly there.
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This is certainly a problem that keeps rearing its head - strike teams arrive, but one or some or all of the following - Incident Controller / Ops officer / Div Commander / Sector Commander aren't aware they are coming.
Sometimes, Region has organised strike teams, without the knowledge of the Incident Controller, hence none knows they are coming until they arrive and find there is no work for them, or there is a communications break down somewhere in the chain..... :|
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I was recently talking with a DGO who was a strike team leader, they arrived at a job with no tasking so they helped themselves. Attached them selves to a sector commander and started mopping up.
Although not strictly according to the rules it certainly got the troops out working! And achieved a result.
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Sometimes, Region has organised strike teams, without the knowledge of the Incident Controller, hence none knows they are coming until they arrive and find there is no work for them, or there is a communications break down somewhere in the chain..... :|
This is the biggest problem i believe. Why they cant they communicate with the IMT on the ground before doing this i dont know.
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scared of legal/political/career implications if the question is asked "why didn't you send enough resources?"
They have probably been told to send everyone and ask questions later.
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Of all the s/t's i've been on, ive had varying success
murray bridge 12/05 - very good
KI 10/06 - not very good
Harrogate 12/06 - ok
onka 12/06 - not very good
mt bold 01/07 - good
Murray bridge was very good, I don't think I could fault it at all except for the really rough track out that was only kinda drivable.
KI had problems galore. I voiced them elsewhere on this site, and there were too many, so i won't repeat them.
Harrogate was one of thowse ones where you get there and they don't really have anything for you to do. we blacked out for about 3 hours, ate, did the perimeter and went home. Still alright, and the food was okay.
Onka was so so. The main problem I had was food. a cold big mac and small chips at 3am isn't really great sustanance. it filled a hole though i suppose. The worst thing was that there wasn't enough for the 4-5 trucks that rocked up, which i don't think was very good.
Mt bold was fine. good supplies of everything. we didn't eat out there but i think that was cause we were initial response. either way that didn't bother me all that much.
So I've had a mixed bag. KI was the worst, and mundcfs can vouch on that for me.
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Yes, yes i can :-)
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Yes, yes i can :-)
By the way mund, this may bring back some memories...
http://www.ses.sa.gov.au/aboutses/images_gallery/kangarooIsland/KI-fires4.jpg
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scared of legal/political/career implications if the question is asked "why didn't you send enough resources?"
They have probably been told to send everyone and ask questions later.
Thats all well and good but we have IMT for a reason and it only takes a few minutes in inform them on the ground that they are inbound, that way if they are not needed they can then be turned around before anyone gets too annoyed.
If we keep pissing the firefighters off they arent going to come back. Down here in Region 5 its getting hard enough to get crews onto strike teams let alone sending them there and pissing them off!
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well I was on a strike team that someone had assumed had gone home but we were actauly left out on the fire ground.
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Go on a Task force to Ngarkat in the murry mallee, you havnt been on a bad taskforce till you go to one there. We got stuck on the fire ground for 28hours plus the 3.5 hr drive up there. No food or water for the whole time, water for the unit was a two hr return trip and the staging area was 70kms away. Fun, not.
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If this is the place I am thinking about, the IMT were calling & calling the appliances who had been out on the fire ground for way too long, but the appliance(s) wouldn't answer for several hours...and eventually wandered back to the staging area, complaining about being out there too long!
One thing that has been stressed to Sector Commanders (at least in Region 1 - I would hope elsewhere too) - if you are out on the fireground, and think you have been forgotten - eg no food, not task, been out on the fireground for too long etc, then CALL UP on the radio and say so!!!
Things get chaotic at all levels of a fire - and when you are trying to keep track of 30 or 40 appliances, sometimes things get overlooked.
Crews, and in particular Sector commanders & Strike team leaders need to be a bit proactive in their behaviour!!
Pip
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if you all want to know how hard it can be tracking resources, next time you are a reasonable sized incident...practice keeping track of 5 appliances..ie your span of control....then if you think that's easy...which it can be if you have good sector commanders etc...take on another strike team...
I agree with Pip's comments...I've been on both ends of the scheme...it's all about communications...and it's also about using the chain of command for comms..and being disciplined with tasking...finished, call in, going for water, call in, need food or supplies, call in...don't just wander off and do your own thing...
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We did call up, we did ask for food, and to be relieved, and everytime we called, we got told it was on its way, be there soon. 10 hrs of this is not fun. i know that the IMT team has a hard job, and i dont blame the people in the IMT at all i believe its the IMT plan it self. It seems to unsuitable for large distance jobs like Ngarkat where we had a fire perimeter of 300kms.
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Yep and that can happen too...when I am in IMT, I always try to make sure that the troops are busy and have food...the food can be difficult at times, we've had local food outlets tell us that it will be ready in 30 mins and send someone to collect and distribute....1.5hrs later it's ready...
The IMT system we use is an Australasian International Incident Management System...not one we have made up...no system would be perfect...especially when there is the human factor.. :evil:
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correction, Interagency not International...so we also have to try to integrate our plans with other agencies...now THAT makes it all much more difficult...have you ever tried to get another agency to deliver food? :evil:
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Remember when the ladies auxillary used to make food for incidents ah those were the days used to get it pretty fast too. :-D
Now the Salvo's have a nice Hino mobile kitchen cost a small fortune and is fitted with a GRN radio as well...but the problem seems to be getting the meals from them to us on the fireground.....why is it so
Another problem is getting a vehicle for the sector commanders to get around in not practical to use the appliance as its a wasted resource then.
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I heard that at the riverland fires in december that some got prawns for tea while the others got pizza? sounds good to me
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seafood is a iffy subject. Alot of people dont eat it. But as long as they provide an alternative
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And for people with food allergies, seafood (and particularly shellfish) is often a problem......
So, gotta be a bit careful....
Pip
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Was told that there was a couple of people out there who could not eat most foods only chicken or fish so they put on the spread.
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the fussy ones had cans of spam thrown at them :lol:
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But you guys had a good cricket game and was a bit of fun.
Poor planing on the night, I hate it when you have been at work all day then go out at night to do nothing. For the safety of crews you should be released about midnight being up for 24 hours is dangerous
36 hrs by the time work all day, fire all night, work all day.
And only 4 hrs sleep the night before after initial response.
Lacking in bonhomie & good cheer by then.... the only good
greenie/manager/customer/wife/IMT/etc is a dead one... :-D
(I catch a bus to work so road safety is someone else's problem.)
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.....Another problem is getting a vehicle for the sector commanders to get around in not practical to use the appliance as its a wasted resource then.
Then callout an SES 4wd vehicle with a driver. The sector commander then has a chauffeur. He or she can utilise CFS handheld GRN & VHF radios.
If the person wants a radio scribe to record messages, then an extra SES crew member can be dispatched.
Just a thought to 'think outside of the normal square' to resolve a problem.
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AIIMS actually stands for Australian Interservice Incident Management System :-D
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.....Another problem is getting a vehicle for the sector commanders to get around in not practical to use the appliance as its a wasted resource then.
Then callout an SES 4wd vehicle with a driver. The sector commander then has a chauffeur. He or she can utilise CFS handheld GRN & VHF radios.
If the person wants a radio scribe to record messages, then an extra SES crew member can be dispatched.
Just a thought to 'think outside of the normal square' to resolve a problem.
Thats a really good idea. I reckon that should be done more often. If its only driving, then sure.
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.....Another problem is getting a vehicle for the sector commanders to get around in not practical to use the appliance as its a wasted resource then.
Then callout an SES 4wd vehicle with a driver. The sector commander then has a chauffeur. He or she can utilise CFS handheld GRN & VHF radios.
If the person wants a radio scribe to record messages, then an extra SES crew member can be dispatched.
Just a thought to 'think outside of the normal square' to resolve a problem.
Thats a really good idea. I reckon that should be done more often. If its only driving, then sure.
Another use is as a good way to get food delivered to the fireground, since apparently Adelaide Hills SES have people who have done BFF1 specifically so they can go on the fireground.