SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SAAS => Topic started by: rescue5271 on July 20, 2008, 10:07:14 AM
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Is it time that the government looked at inviting private transfer company's to start doing some of the non urgent jobs that would make more SAAS crews free to attend urgent jobs?? It works well in other state's and I have a friend who runs such a service in Victoria all ambulances are fully stocked the same as the service in Victoria and are staffed with a ICU nurse and a PTO (driver) they have no lights and siren as they are only for transfer cases only. I have notice of late that over the weekend country SAAS units spend way too much time doing transfer's and leave a area short of a ambulance and crew for sometime. What do those in SAAS think???
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before i start i am not having a go directly at you bill.
what is it with every one on here lately???
there is a number of forums based "should we get private contractors to do this or that" what cant we doe the job????
now for this post.
saas have casual that do transfers in the city,
so why dont they expaned that service rater then getting other people in to do the job for them??
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Mate - most of the "Should we get private contractors" stuff was started by a private contractor :wink:
Maybe instead of looking at the eastern state guys, we should look West & North where St John's services are used :evil:
It seems to me that some mistakes were made many years ago & now we are paying the price!
And how would private contractors provide the service - any service in rural areas anyway? There wouldn't be enough work to keep them occupied & cost effective, so there would be fewer ATS cars in a more centralised locations.
And the local SAAS station would have less work, so the Bean counters would look for cost savings "as they do" & see a station doing stuff all - lets shut that one down they will say & the situation is worse than it currently is!
More services lost!
People need to remember that private contractors need to make a profit & the privatisation of government services has not led to better outcomes.
Ask yourself this Are we better of now that Telstra, Qantas, ETSA, SAWATER etc are in private hands? My answer is no!
cheers
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Point taken Phil,may be SAAS need to expand the service and also make sure that those that do the work in the counter work 7 days a week and not monday to friday it was just a question that i have been meaning to ask and having seen how it works interstate and with the shortage of SAAS staff just wanted to ask the question....
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SAAS Mt Gambier operate a 76 car from 7am-7pm, 7 days a week purely for transfer services. Victor have a 126 crew that also provides a transfer service everyday. Millicent SAAS are looking at changing their crewing to provide a car on station 24/7 rather than an on call service only between 6pm and 8am, taking a bit of pressure of during the day for their rest break requirements.
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Kools,Naracoorte would have to be getting close to have staff on station 24/7 rather than on recall with their work load??
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I'm not opposed to private companies running the PTS - and to be honest...they can have it!
the new CEO's focus on SAAS service provision is to respond when the 000 line rings. Anything outside of that is not a priority - so if privates take on the PTS work....no sleep will be lost over that.
The truth be known - PTS work for SAAS costs more than it brings in - and lets be honest about something.....if any of us go to hospital for a visit to ED or an admit for several days and are well enough to be discharged - why should SAAS have to take you home again? Is this not a case of public money being mis-spent?
Firey9119's comments about private companies is probably a little narrow minded - PTS work is seriously a waste of public money! MAS and RAV (or whatever the new merged conglomerate will be called) do no elective work at all as the Vic Government doesn't see it as an area in which it should be spending your tax money to provide a "service" which is not really a priority! Private PTS's are actually just a taxi with a bed!
in country areas - local crews will not lose out (ie: stations will not close) if private companies come in and do the elective work. The volunteer crews are there to do the EMERGENCY work - and the elective transfers could seriously wear thin with crews after a while if that is all they are doing. On top of that - who's looking after their own community while they take Mrs Smith 3 towns away for a podiatry appointment? is this effective resourcing and use of public money? I think not.....
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I hope your right mate. Just there is a lot of weird stuff going on across the whole sector.
And I would hate to see any further reduction of serices.
Anyway under the new health plan Berri would be an ideal spot for a contractor base :-D
cheers
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Couldn't agree more BM!..
Its nice reading educated and knowledgable opinions on various matters!
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chook - you'll have to trust me that the new CEO is all about increasing SAAS's EMERGENCY service capacity.......SAAS's role in the "new look" health department is a lot more inclusive as a dept of SA health, and not just left on the outer reaches as has happened in the past...
...Ambulance is long past first aid - a lot more focus on primary medical intervention and appropriate referral which results in hospital avoidance is the key to the future sustainability and contribution of SAAS to the whole of the states public coffers.
thanks RescueHazmat! Talk to you soon sunshine! :mrgreen:
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thanks for your reply mate :-D
Just after discussion on another thread alarm bells were ringing.
I just hope the service & professionalism I have experienced with you guys on the road is the same in NSW.
Anyway thanks again & cheers
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Can I ask what is wrong with SAAS's current RMTS staff? They do the same job as the city ATS crews but in the country. Would it be worth perhaps expanding this service instead of necessarily looking at the Eastern states for answers?
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Expand the service and make it 24hrs not just a 12 hour shift or what ever it is now....
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ATS/+ is a 24hour shift.. (In a number of areas)..
Which service/shifts, are you referring to Bill?
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IF it was a 24 hours service then why is it that country SAAS units are doing most of the transfer's,so is the problem there is only one crew on to look aftre a whole region???
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Which area are you talking about Bill?.. I know of a few stations which has multiple ATS/+ Ambulances on 24/7 !
At the end of the day, the shifts are going to exist where the workload is.. Need to recuperate costs to pay for the service..
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Metropolitan
Emergency support (old ATS+) operates two 24hr Ambulances.
The Rest of the Emerg support Ambulances, work on a 12hr day or day afternoon roster.
PTS (Old ATS) Ambulances work an 8hr day shift (Mon-Fri only)
These crews only service the metro/fringe area (with some country RVs)
Metro Emergency Ambulances CAN not be tasked to non urgent cases.
Country
Mt Gambier, Murray Bridge, Wallaroo run a 12 hr RMTS (Regional Medical Transport service) day shift Ambulance, Victor Harbor run a day/afternoon RMTS car, on top of their normal Emergency Ambulances
Country Emergency Ambulance can be tasked to do non urgent cases.
Country Volunteer Ambulances are given the option to do Non urgent cases /transfers; they DO NOT have to do the case.
SAAS E.O.C (Comms)/ State Duty manager are responsible for maintaining area coverage, remember they can see the BIG picture, they do send Emergency Ambulances COQ, have on call crews and have lots of saas cars that are always driving around the state, with managers / RTLs / CSO etc that first respond.
SAAS has
107 ambulance stations
17 metropolitan stations
20 country career stations (Wallaroo is career and volunteer)
67 country volunteer stations
217 ambulances
113 other vehicles
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NERD ALERT!!!!!! :mrgreen:
RMTS was orginally designed to take the non-emerg workload pressure off of primarily country career and volunteer crews, hence the reason they are located in the places they are. (ie: Wallaroo to stop vol. crews doing the thousands of transfers to town, and in the case of victor harbour - to stop emerg crews always disappearing up to FMC and leaving their catchment areas uncovered)
as for suggestions about expanding RMTS - this may well happen, but I think the focus on this thread had more Metro connitations than it did country. Not necessarily looking towards the eastern states for answers, but now that the purse-strings are being pulled so tight (all MH and Driver training has been cancelled indefinitely is just one example....no matter that it's a primary function of OH&S) I can't see how the Gov't will want to continue supporting a taxi service with public money when it prob doesn't need to.
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Please tell me how SAAS country vollies have a choice of doing transfers? If you are rostered on you do the case. If you are not rostered on they page until they get a crew. RFDS does not work around vollie times, they work around there own schedules. Plus in rural areas where your next ambulance is 1 hour away you don't have a choice.
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Sam - talking about long distance transfers not short RFDS runs out to the airport.
Vollies have the option of being local only/ emergency only on their roster.
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That is not correct Robert........From what a few SAAS volunteers where telling me that in a small town you have to do it as there is no one else around and robert some Volunteer crews are driving up to 100KMS one way to drop of a patient for a xray waiting up there and then bring them back.....While doing this they leave their area with out a ambulance for sometime and it takes a while for other crews to get into that area.....
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That is not correct Robert........
Actually Robert is very correct. The latest Tactical Deployment Plan (vers4)and the transport choices circulars (numerous ad nauseum), very strongly empower the crew, and thats all crews paid and unpaid to reject cases that do not warrant the use of an emergency ambulance.
For Category 5 and 6 patients, RMTS is the option to be usedfor long distance and inter town transfers in the country. Very succinct and very straight forward.
There is a difficulty in smaller outlying towns that needs to be looked at, but they are the vast exception...and not the rule. A country ATS model is being looked at for some centres (Bordertown, Strathalbyn, Goolwa, Riverland, and the mid north as an example) but the fact remains - Country crews, and certainly unpaid country crews are currently enabled AND encouraged to ensure their proper availability to attend emergency cases by limiting the number of inter town transfers. If anyone has an issue on shift - speak to the State Duty Manager, they have been given a very broad range of authority to refuse to carry - including disagreeing with MOs that decide that people need transfering at 2am without the MO seeing them.
Roll on the brave new world
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Who are First Care Medical??? I saw these guys at the Slipnot concert at Wayville Showgrounds last week. They were treating people and wearing green uniforms some has Paramedic on uniform others had Nurse or First Responder. Are these guys a private ambulance service? :?
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No not a private ambulance service...Check em out at
www.firstcaremedical.com.au
First Care Medical is a specialist company established in 2004 to provide
professional medical support to the events industry.
First Care Medical is the SA distributor of Zoll defibrillators and equipment and sells First Aid and Medical equipment.
provide fully equipped medics for low risk events through to complete medical centres and advanced life support teams with Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics for large or high risk events.
All First Care staff hold real emergency qualifications with the experience to back it up.
First Care Medical is director lead, you will see them in the field at a variety of venues and events. They are trained and experienced in event medical care. Between them they have over 50 years experience in pre hospital and in hospital care.
First Care Medical is a proud member of Emergency Care Providers Australia (ECPA)
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oh!...that Robert...lol
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I know these guys - have had some very positive dealings with them. the majority of their staff are SAAS paramedics/ICP's, ED nurses and cert IV qualified AO's. they're a commercial company so charge for their services, but from talking to some of the guys who work for them - they do most of their work interstate because ppl in SA seem to want everything free from St Johns.
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Likewise, have heard good things!..
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that brings up another point (insert tangent alert here) - are St johnnies falling a bit behind the times now? There's a number of these commercial "medical" companies popping up around the country.....why is there the demand for a medical service (as opposed to first aid) all of a sudden?
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I think its lack of numbers in St Johns & at least if you pay someone to provide a service then they are covered by all of the insurances etc.
As someone said "Roll on brave new world".
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that brings up another point (insert tangent alert here) - are St johnnies falling a bit behind the times now? There's a number of these commercial "medical" companies popping up around the country.....why is there the demand for a medical service (as opposed to first aid) all of a sudden?
Or is it that the event organisers need more equipment\resources than St John First Aid are designed to provide, and SAAS resources are not available in the timeframes for OH&S requirements of the event.
Could be a good thing to make the event pay (which is making the money) for the risk rather than let the tax payer foot the bill.
** my thoughts only **
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no you're not wrong there - SAAS struggles to keep enough cars on the road, let alone deal with events etc...
and the new(ish) CEO has made it known that SAAS cannot be spending public money for private enterprise....so if they're doing that work it will be total cost recovery. don't know what the prices are - but if it brings it into line with other states....it will be upwards of $400/hour
To be completely honest tho...the johnny volunteers (bless their cotton socks) scare the daylights out of me.....and I don't think I'm alone....
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To be completely honest tho...the johnny volunteers (bless their cotton socks) scare the daylights out of me.....and I don't think I'm alone....
Some are great and some are "interesting" at the RAHS Showgrounds, Clipsal500, etc events. Some SAAS drivers are the same, some great, some impatient.
Just like all organisations you get good & bad, enthusiastic & the 'I look good in uniform', etc, etc...
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SAAS Driver... - Haven't heard of that Position in the service before..?
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i wasn't talking about attitude or presentation...an organisation who gives their staff a teeny bit of training and a uniform and consequently lack any practical experience in the field is something to behold.
Couple with this a system of management that hails from the dark ages (literally) and you find an organisation which is backward and non-progressive - finding itself struggling for members because of this system, but still holding some political clout because they have one of the best know brand names in the country.
There will invariably be a clown in every circus - and I know there are ambo's out there who need an attitude adjustment (some might say I'm included in that number) - but the majority are professional in their daily working!
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...and before i get lambasted for bashing a vollie group - yes i am qualified to comment after 10 years involvement with them......
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...and before i get lambasted for bashing a vollie group - yes i am qualified to comment after 10 years involvement with them......
Lambasted ? .........Why would anyone want to baste your body with oil, sprinkle spices on you and shove Rosemary sprigs in your orifice's. :-)
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Lambasted ? .........Why would anyone want to baste your body with oil, sprinkle spices on you and shove Rosemary sprigs in your orifice's. :-)
mmmm.....sounds tempting....
but yes..finding someone to do it to me could be another matter entirely....
and then....there is the issue of whether or not this constitues cheating on your wife.....
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I have to agree some of the johnies scare me when Im at events, you seem to ave 2 sorts of johnies those who are pimple ridden teenagers or those who are 75 and should be retired and enjoying life
St Jacks do really look like a DADS ARMY at the best of times... while CFS, SES have got their act together with professional uniforms, vehicles, equipment and nationally accredited training..... the Johnies have been left behond remembering their glory days of running the state ambulance service
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No I wouldn't call it cheating boardy - very advanced catering maybe?
And yes the St Johns people are a bit passed it - and the modern private companies sound so slick, so anyone who does not work in the emergency services field would believe the hype that private organisations spout afterall a lot work or have worked in the emergency services sector. And the modern manager is trained to "just hire the specialist & focus on core business" thats why consultants get so much work :wink:
I'm not saying they aren't good or bad, but like anything thats not regulated the private sector does attract & support "less than adequate" companies.
Anyway thats what capitalism is all about, so do your research before signing anything.
cheers
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yes true, there is no regulation - but those companies who do the job properly will usually get the reputation for being safe and effective too!
consultants.....mmm...maybe I'm in the wrong job working in the public sector.....
...but then again....it's filtered hard to lose your job..and isn't it all about job security!??
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RMTS are Ambulance Officers no paramedics aren't they?
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Last I heard it is usually a Cert IV & Paramedic crewing.
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Rumour getting around the sports motorcycle clubs that St. John is about to pull out of all attendances where higher level trauma is the primary injury type. Something about their level of training and insurance policy demands.
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Rumour getting around the sports motorcycle clubs that St. John is about to pull out of all attendances where higher level trauma is the primary injury type. Something about their level of training and insurance policy demands.
should save a motor cyclist or two...
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Rumour getting around the sports motorcycle clubs that St. John is about to pull out of all attendances where higher level trauma is the primary injury type. Something about their level of training and insurance policy demands.
St John Ambulance is undertaking a systematic review of its event first aid service relationship with numerous corporate / 'higher risk' clients to ensure that there is a clear understanding of what (if any) are the regulatory requirements / standards of these organisations. It completed a review last year with CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport)and is currently undertaking this process with MA (Motorcycling Australia).
It is to ensure that the regulatory body has clear medical requirement guidelines and that these are understood by respective organsing clubs (which is very hit and miss - many clubs do not understand their own medical regulatory guidelines or standards - be it many different codes of motorsport or motorcycling). It is then to assess what the levels of care that St John currently provide and map these against the 'regulatory' guidelines etc.
The ideal is to generate a clear matrix or table to be used by both St John and the event organiser organisation clearly showing what events that St John is capable of providing a service based upon their regulatory standards.
A further layer to this is then to implement a risk management approach to the events that may fall into the scope of St John being able to cover but might be deemed to not be appropriate.
The above does not then mean that St John will cover an event, it simply means that we may satisfy the regulatory body minimum requirement to provide a first aid / medical service.
All of the above is designed to ensure that there is optimal service delivery by appropriately trained personnel in environments that are safe to all.
It also serves as a need analysis tool, to allow St John to identify where it might wish to increase its clinical / training scope and / or introduce additional equipment or persue possible business strategies... (this is just speculative and more food for thought)
Motorsport is a clear recruitment and retention tool for any event first aid / medical service provider - however it is well recognised that there needs to be a focus on having appropriately trained personnel, operating in a safe environment and complying with various regulatory body minimum standards.
Discussions are about to commence with ANDRA (Australian National Drag Racing Association) and will probably include NASR (National Association of Speedway Racing) in the near future.
should save a motor cyclist or two...
was that really necessary..??? :|
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It sound like St. Johns is just doing the right thing.
People criticize St. John and they appear to be an easy target on here (after reading numerous older posts).
If St. Johns SA just modernized like it has interstate perhaps the knockers would see them in a different light.
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It sound like St. Johns is just doing the right thing.
People criticize St. John and they appear to be an easy target on here (after reading numerous older posts).
If St. Johns SA just modernized like it has interstate perhaps the knockers would see them in a different light.
you mean we shouldnt criticise them....even though its apparant they HAVEN'T been doing the right thing up until now? Sacred cows have no place in Health.... ask SAAS.
Its not about being modernized....but being responsible and ethical and accountable.....if the Jacks in SA can achieve that, they will regain some of the respect they used to have.
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If St. Johns SA just modernized like it has interstate perhaps the knockers would see them in a different light.
Its not about being modernized....but being responsible and ethical and accountable.....if the Jacks in SA can achieve that, they will regain some of the respect they used to have.
I recognise that St John has shortfalls (no arguments from me there), and these will differ at times, however I would welcome any suggestions or strategies that would address the above two quotes... Feel free to PM me if you don't wish to do it in the thread...
Cheers
Shane
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...I would welcome any suggestions or strategies that would address the above two quotes... Feel free to PM me if you don't wish to do it in the thread...
Cheers
Shane
Rather than do the work for you....maybe you should start insisting on those paid staff responsible for the Ops Division starting some work on those specific topics....or sack them and get people in that can.
Alternatively....PM me for my consultants fees :-)
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Straps
Just as an outsider looking in, I would suggest St. Johns needs to change quickly to compete with the paid companies that seem to be poping up over night.
From what Ive seen of St. John interstate they
1) Have professional looking vehicles
2) Better public image
3) Better working relationship with ambulance and other emergency services
4) Better equipped
5) Have more health care professionals and those professionals are equipped with modern equipment to provide advanced care.
A case in example. 2 years ago at Clipsal you had some volunteers in green uniforms, some in black and white, some with green pants and red/black polo shirts. Just doesn't give the best first impression.
St John interstate seem to charge for their service and not just ask for a donation. This obviously pays for all the above.
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The Johnnies may think about upgrading their skills base by doing some internationally recognised courses such as PHTLS, ITLS, ATT or ACLS. All are available in South Australia conducted by local providers.
Good luck
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sadly courses are not the issue.....they are systemic and organisational issues
You wouldnt happen to be a provider of those courses by any chance would you??...lol :lol:
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As a matter of fact i am an Instructor for those courses as well as an Instructor for a few Australian University paramedic courses as well. Although there are systemic problems with the Johnnies in terms of their Crusaders management system, in terms of their customers and their insurance policies it is a matter of best practice levels of training for their volunteers. If you are marketing a service the customer is always right! Until they learn that very simple lesson they will lose volunteers and events until they are irrelevant in the marketplace. The times they are a changing. (If you can remember the sixties you were nor really there).
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Blackfoot you think the US system is the only one. They are not the only system in the world and your organisation is not the only one either.
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As a matter of fact i am an Instructor for those courses as well as an Instructor for a few Australian University paramedic courses as well. Although there are systemic problems with the Johnnies in terms of their Crusaders management system, in terms of their customers and their insurance policies it is a matter of best practice levels of training for their volunteers. If you are marketing a service the customer is always right! Until they learn that very simple lesson they will lose volunteers and events until they are irrelevant in the marketplace. The times they are a changing. (If you can remember the sixties you were nor really there).
Hmmm, I beg to differ that the customer is always right.... You and your organisation may have your own business model and be happy to supply whatever service for "the right price", but I would rather see us work with the customer to have them better understand their needs and assess how we, as a service provider, can support and service their needs.
Many people ask for a paramedic and ambulance (more often due to ignorance etc) - we are trying to then discuss what it is they want service provision for and how we might be able to support their needs.
I would argue that many events (irrespective of the provider present) over supply resources (human and physical). This might be from a staff / member recruitment / retention perspective or a marketing and PR perspective or not clearly understanding and assessing the level of risk involved and adopting a risk averse methodology to their service provision.
I could give examples of where event organisers have ask for a one thing, but through consultation and discussion, an alternate looking service provision is provided.
Just an update for the motorcycling Australia issue - St John is continuing to liaise with MA and have given some timeframes in which their negotiations and discussions are based on. St John has no intention of suddenly removing its service provision from the MA (SA) events.
It is about working with the association to ensure that its requirements are met at events and that this is especially articulated to the clubs that convene events - as there is a significantly varied perspective and understanding of what is required for what level and type of events.
St John is still happily and continuing to service the Motorcycling Australia events both now and into the near future, however continuing raise the matters spoken about already.
Happy to field any further questions via PM, if there are any concerns.
Cheers
Shane
PS - All service providers have their PROS and CONS and I know enough about the bulk of them to know what their strengths and weaknesses are - I don't for one second believe that St John is the be and end all of event first aid / medical service provision at the present time. That's why I welcome competitors into the marketplace in SA and encourage competition.
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STRAPS - well written and sounds a great idea.
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It's just seems SJA are doing the right thing.
Blackfoot I think the average person would just ask for Paramedics because they think they are the only people who can provide care.
All the paramedics, drugs and monitors in the world do very little for an event (except bump up the price of tickets) when really first responders were really only needed.
To quote another website
"A number of services exist to cater for these different levels of coverage required. As part of your event management process, you need to consider which type of service will meet your needs. For example, two volunteer first aiders would be no where near sufficient to cover a professional motor sports event. Equally, a team of six paid doctors and paramedics is definitely overkill for a school sports carnival (and would probably never fit in such an event's budget)."
Most events just need quality solid basic life support. Most presentations will just be minor injuries and illness. Research shows this.
If the event is too high risk state ambulance service should be onsite.