SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: SA- Private- Contractor on July 13, 2008, 04:09:24 PM
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REMOVED 18-07-08
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Hi all i'm new to this forum so play nice.
I have worked in the fire industry for a large company and we have installed a large number of booster, sprinkler and back up pump sets over the past 15 years, trains on site fire fighting teams, and teaches fire units all over Asia. We also conduct the flow testing on them through our own large fire truck. The CFS should receive comprehensive training on the use of booster, FIPs and installed systems to save time and peoples lives. Currently the idea of a untrained CFS crew using a booster at a site we own or service is not a good one. If the booster is linked to the sprinklers and is over pressurised it could result in the sprinklers blowing and a drastic drop in water pressure. At the moment only the MFS has enough training to be able to use boosters and installed systems to their advantage. I allowed a 34p and two people for CFS HQ and showed them how to use the boosters efficiently. We then set up a 100ft running fire told them they would need to use the boosters... they failed horribley, NOT!!! because they were stupid, not paying attention but because they don't get the oppotunity to practise on them enough to have that conditioned response.
If the CFS is to be able to operate effective in the built up areas where they may be needed in the event (fingers crosses, Touch wood) that a fire get to the edge of the suburbs where boosters are avaliable or where a large rural factory or distribution centre (monarto Big W?) catches fire the CFS MUST be able to use the boosters without hesitation.
Also i have attached a pic of the truck my company is about to buy, its got a Waterous 2 stage, PTO driven pump with 4 BA seats.
Im under the impression there will be a course being introduced to eligible brigades within the next 12 months to deal with these issues. Whether it covers what you have outlined completely im not sure but i agree with you completely. The CFS has not upheld its obligation to train crews in the use of booster systems.
Our brigade has 3 boosters (that i am aware of) in our area and we have not had any training in how to use these or an appliance to use on these. Granted MFS also dual respond to these alarms but as has been said in a previous thread, we cant use them as an excuse to get a better truck, so why should they (HQ) be allowed to use the MFS as an excuse not to provide a sufficient truck? But anyway thats another issue.
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Most CFS appliances apart from a few cannot boost properly anyway as they do not have the capacity too. ABout the only ones that can are:
Barker Rescue
Millicent Pumper
Seaford Pumper
Stirling Pumper
Hahndorf Pumper
Eden Hills Pumper
Nuriootpa Pumper
Murray Bridge Pumper
Happy Valley Pumper
Burnside??
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Stirling pumper struggles.
but it is not just those brigades that need the training as anyone could any up working in that area
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What pressure do sprinkler bulbs blow out at ?
(feel free to quote different figures for different temperatures)
Just trying to get a feel for how much of an issue this is really.
Lots of derogatory comments in here that CFS trucks mostly don't have the grunt
to drive booster systems anyway. (True if your intent is to run 4 x 64's at full
blast rather than a couple of 38's into a single room at the back of a school or
factory.)
Also note that it seems most metro CFS brigades have significant numbers of MFS
f/f's in them - so the skill IS in the CFS, just not all of it, & not provided
by the CFS.
cheers
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You forgot Naracoorte pumper, There are a number of fire protection firms with in SA that offer this service and most these days have their own appliance or have the pumps to do the job..not wanting to turn this site into a free plug a company.. If you guys want to promote your service then come along to field days or attend corporate days that are held around the state for those that are in the FPA....
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Hmmm Scania's up for sale already how much are they fetching?
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REMOVED 18-07-08
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If the CFS is to be able to operate effective in the built up areas where they may be needed in the event (fingers crosses, Touch wood) that a fire get to the edge of the suburbs where boosters are avaliable or where a large rural factory or distribution centre (monarto Big W?) catches fire the CFS MUST be able to use the boosters without hesitation.
Also i have attached a pic of the truck my company is about to buy, its got a Waterous 2 stage, PTO driven pump with 4 BA seats.
Firstly; CFS covers plenty of areas with large fire suppresion systems... Dont think that just because we are the "Country Fire Service" we are only out in the sticks.. CFS covers plenty of schools, hospitals, nursing homes, factories, shopping centres, etc... ;)
No we [the CFS as a service] dont have very good urban training IN GENERAL, however i think you will find that a lot of brigades have organised there own training, or built on CFS training with the knowledge and experience of there own vollies. Sometimes, as in my brigade, they are lucky enough to have actual members of other services that are involced in training, or other training organisations. This helps... but CFS needs to get its act together and get rid of the attitude that we are a bushfire brigade when it comes to training...
Secondly... whats the need for the appliance you are purchasing? do you use it to train groups on or is it for onsite protection of your business?
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REMOVED 18-07-08
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:roll:
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Hi all i'm new to this forum so play nice.
I have worked in the fire industry for a large company and we have installed a large number of booster, sprinkler and back up pump sets over the past 15 years, trains on site fire fighting teams, and teaches fire units all over Asia. We also conduct the flow testing on them through our own large fire truck. The CFS should receive comprehensive training on the use of booster, FIPs and installed systems to save time and peoples lives. Currently the idea of a untrained CFS crew using a booster at a site we own or service is not a good one. If the booster is linked to the sprinklers and is over pressurised it could result in the sprinklers blowing and a drastic drop in water pressure. At the moment only the MFS has enough training to be able to use boosters and installed systems to their advantage. I allowed a 34p and two people for CFS HQ and showed them how to use the boosters efficiently. We then set up a 100ft running fire told them they would need to use the boosters... they failed horribley, NOT!!! because they were stupid, not paying attention but because they don't get the oppotunity to practise on them enough to have that conditioned response.
If the CFS is to be able to operate effective in the built up areas where they may be needed in the event (fingers crosses, Touch wood) that a fire get to the edge of the suburbs where boosters are avaliable or where a large rural factory or distribution centre (monarto Big W?) catches fire the CFS MUST be able to use the boosters without hesitation.
Also i have attached a pic of the truck my company is about to buy, its got a Waterous 2 stage, PTO driven pump with 4 BA seats.
Im under the impression there will be a course being introduced to eligible brigades within the next 12 months to deal with these issues. Whether it covers what you have outlined completely im not sure but i agree with you completely. The CFS has not upheld its obligation to train crews in the use of booster systems.
Our brigade has 3 boosters (that i am aware of) in our area and we have not had any training in how to use these or an appliance to use on these. Granted MFS also dual respond to these alarms but as has been said in a previous thread, we cant use them as an excuse to get a better truck, so why should they (HQ) be allowed to use the MFS as an excuse not to provide a sufficient truck? But anyway thats another issue.
Have you eva thought that it may just be up to you to find out how these boosters in your own area work!!!
Don't keep looking to pass the buck. Maybe instead of scheiße canning the MFS in the mount all the time ( as it seems thats all your group is capable off) and asking them to show you how they work. Time we all started to work together and at the end of the day as long as the fire gets put out then who really cares
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REMOVED 18-07-08
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Have you eva thought that it may just be up to you to find out how these boosters in your own area work!!!
Don't keep looking to pass the buck. Maybe instead of filtered canning the MFS in the mount all the time ( as it seems thats all your group is capable off) and asking them to show you how they work. Time we all started to work together and at the end of the day as long as the fire gets put out then who really cares
Yep ill agree with you. All our group does it scheiße can the local mfs. Not a view i or majority of my brigade hold! So before you tar everyone with the same brush you should do some research and nothing i mentioned in my previous post scheiße cans the local mfs!
And we have done local training with boosters and FIP's with the local MFS (so keep your donkey shut to prevent the scheiße you dribble coming out!) but this still does not give the CFS an excuse to pass the buck on training. But as i suggested earlier the CFS are in the process of addressing this issue, which is probaly being held up due to lack of funds.
Sorry my original comment should of stated we have not had any formal training provided by CFS on FIP's and Boosters.
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15:06:05 14-07-08 EARLY TRAINING TONIGHT 1845PM AT MAITLAND STATION - BOOSTER TRAINING - BRIGADE TRAINING OFFICER CFS Maitland Info
:lol:
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Wait till you get a bigger truck before you worry about boosters Camo. You cant do much with your putt putt 24.
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Wait till you get a bigger truck before you worry about boosters Camo. You cant do much with your putt putt 24.
Exactly. But we have done training in the past to understand how they work.
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Stand by all, there has been a course developed which will cover all of your q's and has already been delivered to a brigade with more in the not to near future. It will cover responding and correct positioning of appliances at the scene, and how to operate the FIP and understand it's functions and how to connect up to the boosters. Even connecting up with a standard 24/34 can have results on a sprinkler system. Alot of new systems in rural areas are operated by an electric or diesel pump so there shouldn't need to be any boosting from the appliances.
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Who is conducting the training ?
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CFS
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Anyone imparticular or will it be a hand out that we teach internally ?
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Is it Nat Accredited
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does it need to be???
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There is nothing special or unique to a booster. It's the same as relay pumping which is not that different to any other pumping. There does not need to be a specific course for boosters, and pump usage should be continuously covered by your brigade on training nights.
The above list of appliances that can properly boost is wrong. Every appliance can boost it just depends on to what extent. If you can't boost with one appliance, then use two. Boosting isn't really a big issue like it's been made out to be.
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The course basically covers how to respond to alarm calls and how to operate the FIP. Most first arriving appliances are still rolling up to the front door because it's closer to walk to the panel. Should be parking near the booster!!!. As hicks flat said most appliances are able to boost a system. You don't necessarily need a big pumper to make it work. Some firies still can't determine a smoke detector to a thermal, it also covers reading block plans correctly and filling out the Attendance books. These courses will be held at local brigades and using a system in their area.
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sounds really good. when will we hear it officially?
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The course basically covers how to respond to alarm calls and how to operate the FIP. Most first arriving appliances are still rolling up to the front door because it's closer to walk to the panel. Should be parking near the booster!!!. As hicks flat said most appliances are able to boost a system. You don't necessarily need a big pumper to make it work. Some firies still can't determine a smoke detector to a thermal, it also covers reading block plans correctly and filling out the Attendance books. These courses will be held at local brigades and using a system in their area.
Errrrm, whats wrong with the first pump going to the door and the second pump going to the booster, thats how our response plans have always worked. Tend to find it much easier to fight a fire with the pumper out the front and the second pumper boosting the system. I would be interested to see how not pulling up to the building makes it easier, especially with some boosters in our area being a LOOOOOONG way from any of the buildings. I look forward to this new course, should be interesting.......
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ERRR are you telling me that all areas including rural areas that have installations have 2 or 3 pumps responding to fire alarms. Don't think so !!!
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isn't one point of a booster/hydrant system so you can in theory fight a fire in a large building with less appliances.
Not sure about numbers of crew tho
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P P Snake...a lot of Fixed alarms, dont necesseraily have booster systems, just alarms. So its up to first arriving appliance to really tough it out...awaiting further backup if its a goer...
And its really up to Comcen to make the appropriate response to send 2-3 pumps to a fire alarm....not relying on a single brigade response. If you only page one brigade to a fire alarm...8/10 they will only roll one appliance..sadly due to the lack of response to it.
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ERRR are you telling me that all areas including rural areas that have installations have 2 or 3 pumps responding to fire alarms. Don't think so !!!
Did I say that, I am saying that our response plans are set up because we do. Its not my fault we have appliances able to boost and fight fires. Why would I leave my first arrival pumper at the booster when the second arriving appliance is capable? If I was in some area that only has 24's then I would probably need all of them on the booster to be able to get water, but I don't so we do it our way. I hope this course allows for those of us that have been doing this for a long time, and with great success, some of us as a fulltime job as well, to be able to adapt to the equipment we have.
But it is good to see something being developed, as none of us in CFS have had formal training, usually its picked up as we go or those of us that are fortunate to get formal training in our employment pass it on to those not so fortunate.
How about CFS also teach people to respond in more than the captains ute/group car or all these alarms set up with 1 appliance brigades responding on their own, or a non BA crew wondering around hoping its nothing, or taking a phone call from the premises (that might in fact be a hoax) and not responding at all.
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CFS has SOP 4.5 related to Automatic Fire Alarms and states what appliances go where :? 1st arrival goes to the FIP and the 2nd to the booster, or closest water source.
Any additional appliances shall be positioned or staged at the direction of the Incident Controller
Contrary to popular belief not all CFS brigades are dumb filtered and have been responding to alarms for years.As has been said there are many of us who either work in that area or are dual service members so we know what to do. :evil:
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isn't one point of a booster/hydrant system so you can in theory fight a fire in a large building with less appliances.
Not sure about numbers of crew tho
Not really. However less appliances would come about as you would need lesser sources of water if you are boosting correctly.
In my attempt to describe this in the simplest of terms.. Boosting the system/ring mains gives sustained (and often increased) water flow/supply to appliances / lines operating on the hydrants which come off the boosted system.
For example.. - Installation 'A' has a large fire. 8 appliances are operating off 6 hydrants at the complex. Usually this significant increase in supply/demand would reduce the overal flow/supply of the mains (the old term, sucking them dry). - However by boosting the system/ring mains you are putting more water into the system (at pressure), and allowing the hydrants to sustain the required flow/supply to the appliances needing water..
Thats the simplest way I could try and explain it a 11.30pm.. - I will probably come up with a more technical method in the morning. :)
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isn't one point of a booster/hydrant system so you can in theory fight a fire in a large building with less appliances.
Not sure about numbers of crew tho
Not really. However less appliances would come about as you would need lesser sources of water if you are boosting correctly.
In my attempt to describe this in the simplest of terms.. Boosting the system/ring mains gives sustained (and often increased) water flow/supply to appliances / lines operating on the hydrants which come off the boosted system.
For example.. - Installation 'A' has a large fire. 8 appliances are operating off 6 hydrants at the complex. Usually this significant increase in supply/demand would reduce the overal flow/supply of the mains (the old term, sucking them dry). - However by boosting the system/ring mains you are putting more water into the system (at pressure), and allowing the hydrants to sustain the required flow/supply to the appliances needing water..
Thats the simplest way I could try and explain it a 11.30pm.. - I will probably come up with a more technical method in the morning. :)
Good example of that is Resource Co at Wingfield, has a ring main hydrant system boosted by appliances.
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Pumprescue
Seems to me your brigade and group are doing the right thing in terms of Fire alarms. Just because someone wrote " first appliance should go straight to booster" doesn't mean it complies to all brigades. Some brigades that are still only doing single response need to be aware that parking at the front door isn't always the best thing to do. Some brigades have to wait 25-30min for a second appliance to roll up. God bless the people that are doing the right thing, there needs to be more of you
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Pumprescue
Seems to me your brigade and group are doing the right thing in terms of Fire alarms. Just because someone wrote " first appliance should go straight to booster" doesn't mean it complies to all brigades. Some brigades that are still only doing single response need to be aware that parking at the front door isn't always the best thing to do. Some brigades have to wait 25-30min for a second appliance to roll up. God bless the people that are doing the right thing, there needs to be more of you
Dumb question...
WHICH ONLY APPLIES TO PREMISES WHERE FIP & BOOSTER POINT ARE A LONG WAY APART.
CBD FIRIES WHO CAN'T IMAGINE BOOSTER & FIP BEING MORE THAN 30M APART - BUTT OUT.
So, on arrival, commit the appliance to the booster, add a big delay while OIC & primary crew traipse 300M to the FIP, lugging hose, branch, entry tools, wearing BA &
PBI Gold on a 30degC day. On arrival at FIP, find that the sensor is a single smoke
detector another 200M down the property, collect gear & wits & start hiking again...
Is it not better to find out what you are dealing with first (go to the FIP as fast as
possible) =then= make decisions about where to position appliance/s and people ?
We don't have any boosters on our patch, but making decisions from a position of
knowledge seems to me a more rational approach under these circumstances.
If not, why not ?
cheers
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First appliance should go to the FIP to find out what is happening.
Second appliance should go to the booster.
I have been to a few jobs were the first arrvial appliance goes to the FIP and on arrival we have found that the fire is out, but the rooms are full of smoke with residents still inside. So other oncoming appliance are directed to the smoke logged rooms to help with getting people out.
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As TFT rightly stated - the first appliance has to go to the FIP to find out what is going on - obviously if there is visible smoke then you go straight to the fire and don't even worry about the FIP initially. Any subsequent appliances can be directed to the booster or to the fire. A single appliance sitting at a booster is no good if you don't actually have any one putting out the fire and conducting rescue etc.
If you are in a brigade where a single appliance response to an FIP is considered appropriate then you need to really look at the impacts of what you are doing. You cannot assume that every fire alarm incident is always going to be a false alarm, you can't commit a BA crew to offensive fire-fighting if you don't have a BA backup crew on site - you might be lucky enough to have four BA operators and four sets on that one truck but I think that would be the exception rather than the rule for many of these brigades.
I know that there are some remote areas where backup is a long way away and I can understand that, but I also know of many brigades in Region 1 and 2 that are surrounded by support that still only turnout one appliance with two people on board to an FIP call (happened yesterday - one truck two people).
Group officers and the Regions shouldn't be signing off on the WFAM response plans that only respond one brigade, and if you don't have a full crew then respond another brigade - it's pretty simple.
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True matt
But i will point out (again) that all the brigade within half an hour from the city have day crew issues sometimes (often to much). So it is reasonable for a bridge to roll with a crew of 2 but get another brigade as well.
(in my area all fips are a dual response to start with)
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:-D At last an official course, that said with all of the other urban style training that CFS has offered over the years (and led the state in - live fire, compartment, tactical leadership etc) it was only a matter of time before a course on boosters and FIP's was written. Well done to the STC team.
Despite some of the other comments, a number of brigades and groups in the state have been attending FIP's, boosters etc for years - with training by the installers at the time, with linkages to their pre planning.
They are nothing new in CFS and oveer the years, with CFS having input into the systems (via Mike Gent and others) they would work with brigades to ensure they were aware of the systems, its operations and the fire fighter interface.
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When a hydrant or sprinkler booster system is installed it is the job of the CFS staff to come along and instruct the brigade how it works,and the workings of a system.I have been to one of these sessions and the commanderdid a great job but he did also point out that a CFS 24 or 34 was not going to give you the flow rate's that are required for such systems.. having said that if that is all you have then it will still work but not to the full flow rate that you want..Some brigades do have a tool that site's in their shed that they could also use and that would be a large size trailer pump....This would only work on a small system...
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REMOVED 18-07-08
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A possible idea may be for all services to be trained in the use of 2 in, 2 out and 4 in and 4 out boosters in BFF1
Yeah not a good idea. Its hard enough for most people to take in all the info from BFF1.
Pumps, boosters, FIP's etc is something for the experienced firefighter (5+ years) to look after. BFF1 is designed to get the new firefighter on the end of the hose.
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REMOVED 18-07-08
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Have to agree with cam,......
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Withdrawn due to circumstances 190708
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hahaha that would be next to impossible.
First we need to get a way to keep members coming and being interested before we try to boggle their minds with boosters etc.
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Withdrawn due to circumstances 190708
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Nice display pic SAPC. - Where was that taken?
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yeah thats pretty true... hows cfs going about getting younger members?
depends on the area mine is struggling.
this topic could warrent a new thread
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Withdrawn due to circumstances 190708
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Things withdrawn due to circumstances hey?
Does US Airforce Staff Sgt. Christina Rumsey, know your using one of her pictures as your display avatar?
http://www.af.mil/weekinphotos/050805-08.html
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/050729-F-4539R-047.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.af.mil/weekinphotos/050805-08.html&h=2100&w=1368&sz=1755&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=l1DvKgCEDdB0LM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtower%2Brescue%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den
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Good pickup RescueHazmat!! :wink:
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Ouch :-o :-o
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I think Mr. SA Private Contractor has a few issues by the looks of things. Atleast he has managed to spark some interesting discussion.
As a basic rule, a building or structure large enough to require a FIP/EWIS and Booster installations really should have at a minimum, 2 brigades turning out. As much as you may have a number of flase alarm calls to the premisis, don't forget that some of the largest fires begin as a mere alarm call.
Upon arrival, why can't you have the best of both worlds? Follow the book, arrive at the closest entrance to the FIP. Have the second responding appliance standby at the Booster. If, as some people have mentioned, there is a time lag between the arrival of appliances, there is nothing wrong with dropping the OIC and 2xBA off at the door and then driving back to the booster.(Ofcourse assuming the driver isn't one of the OIC and BA crew)
Trust me, I've done laps of warehouses on 35C days looking for the door to the FCR, it helps to have that appliance pull up as close to the door as possible. ;)
As for actually using the boosters, the ones you'd most often use are the Hydrant booster systems, which as people have already mentioned, boost the pressure of the ring main, or the internal hydrants of a highrise. Sprinkler boosters on the other hand are really only there as a backup incase the booster pumps have serious issues.
Rather than requiring less appliance on scene, it allows you to conduct firefighting operations away from appliances. If you boost the mains pressure from 400kpa to 1000kpa, for example, it allows you to use handlines straight from pillar and internal hydrants. Its a very valuble tool in large buildings and industrial complexes.
On the one hand CFS certainly does need more training in FIP/EWIS and Booster operations, but at the same time its not all that complex and as the local fire service, brigades need to be looking for ways that they can enhance the protection they provide to their community. If you don't understand how to use the fire detection and suppression systems at a given location that your brigade turns out to, then why not try to find ways to be trained. Even if it is just having one person undertake the training from a private provider and then bring it back to the rest of the brigade? Brigades need to take some responsibility for themselves, rather than relying on someone else to blame.
Don't forget that if you isolate alarm zones, shut off sprinkler systems, don't replace broken sprinkler heads or do anything to diminsh the fire protection of a given premisis, and don't specifically notify the occupants and the building manager that this is the case and that they will need to call 000 in the event of fire, you could be looking down the barrel of serious consequences in the event of a fire occurring.