SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: fire03rescue on July 19, 2005, 10:54:52 AM
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My question is do you wear a protective hood when in BA :?
I have heard both good and ban about this, I would like some opinions
Example
The good - It protects you
The bad - You lose your sense of the heat in the building
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Without any doubt they are good.
People often use the argument about loosing sense of heat but ears are for hearing, not heat sensors. A flash hood protects the side of your face and neck from rapid fire development.
Your priority should be to read the fire and apply correct tactics based on what you are experiencing. There a four main things to read - SMOKE - AIR - FLAME - HEAT in that order. Heat is a very late indicator that something is developing. If you sense a rapid increase in heat a flashover could be fast approaching. But don't use your ears to warn you about heat you might just barbecue them. If you read the fire and respond with correct CFB tactics you should not have a sudden increase in heat.
Flash Hoods are great!! CFS needs to make them compulsory for all structural attack.
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They may be great (and trust me, I agree), but technically no CFS volunteer should be wearing them, in any situation, unless at Brukunga, and instructed to do so by an instructor while in such training environments as CFB.
There is much debate about this, but currently, the last I heard (from a source up top), you are not meant to be wearing them. They are not yet approved out of a a training environment, such as Brukunga... and I believe only CFB.. Maybe Hot Pad training.
Untill they are approved, or you receive word from Brukunga / HQ or reigon that they can be worn, I don't think it is worth the risk.
Don't get me wrong, personally I think they are a fantastic piece of LIFE saving equipment... But if some one goes down while wearing one, before they are approved, it could set back the time line of them being approved for AGES!
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The debate for flash hoods, both urban and rural (and there is a marked difference) is not only being had in CFS, but several career services and other volunteer services as well.
Most career services now issue them for urban incidents and a number or rural/land management agencies are issuing them for rural incidents - NSW NPWS has them as standard issue for all their staff and seasonal crews following findings from a number of burns and deaths during rural fire fighting - although this just clouds further the debate about if CFS should adopt them - interesting though that CAMS (motor sport governing body) stipulates them for all of the motor sport fire fighters, whose general standard of PPE is well below that of ours!!!
The premise in all areas is a lack of knowledge of the environment - risk management would therefore suggest that we know the risk, identify how to address it - easy - teach people how to detect the early signs (as firefiog mentioned).
As for wearing them in CFS - at Brukunga they are used in all live fire training situations - LPG, sim running fuel, multi story and also CFBT.
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Does anyone know if they are likely to be approved? Or the rationale behind the debate.
My view - If a hood enhances protection for fire fighters, would it not be simple to select a product or several products that meet whatever standard is appropriate and advise brigades. Not a difficult task and could be done in one or two meetings.
If a firefighter is burned on ears/neck etc due to the lack of a flash hood, is the employer likely to be prosecuted based on the fact that appropriate PPC exists and failed to ensure it was available??
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In regards to being prosecuted because the PPE existed, but was not in use...
If it is not approved, I don't think there is any way of being prosecuted, even if the gear was available to buy. That would be like some one getting burnt with Nomex, and saying they could have been wearing PBI and would have been fine?? PLus, they wouldn't be able to prove, beyond resonable doubt, that with a flash hood that they wouldn't have been burnt, etc etc.
In regards to approving it, got no idea when it might happen, thats if it happens. Yes, they are a good item (when used correctly), however while they are yet to be approved, I don't know where you would stand if found to be wearing one...??
And to ozfire, in regards to Motor Sport, there PPE meets a set standard in regard to Motor Sport fire and Rescue. You have to remember, it is a different environment, different types of fires............. They wear a flash hood as "typically" they get closer to the scene in the first instances than what we would. Remembering that in Motorsport accidents / Fires, 99.9% of the time, all that is burning is fuel, and oil. The fires are not 'fuelled' by car interiors, dashboards, plastics etc.... Thus why a Foam and DCP extinguisher normally does the job... They aren't entering going structure fires etc, where the use of a flash hood, could be detrimental to a Fire Fighter... Either positively, or negatively.
- I dont think it fair to say: " whose general standard of PPE is well below that of ours"
As it is a different duty, and hence, different PPE.
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flash hood = standard SAMFS PPE, worn at EVERY incident that includes the use of BA...
our brigade has had debates about purchasing flash hoods for every BA operaator, or even just one for every BA set, but for some reason it always ends up getting turned down
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Well, quite obviously it gets turned down, as they are not allowed.
Don't get me wrong guys, I totally agree at how good they are, and TOTALLY agree, that the sooner they are introduced, the better. But remember, they are yet to be approved by the CFS......................It would be like me walking into a structure fire in my jeans and thongs! They are not approved to be worn, nor are Flash hoods...
AGAIN - I totally agree with all of you, but with so many people saying how they are thinking of / going to buy them, remember, THEY ARE NOT APPROVED TO BE WORN!
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Not approved does not necessarily imply not allowed. If the use of them was not allowed then we wouldn't be using them at STC for a start.
So, with this in mind, the service couldn't complain about anyone purchasing this gear. After all training is ment to teach us best practices, and for CFB - that best practice is to cover all skin, which includes the use of a flash hood. Therefore in order to offer best protection it stands to reason we should be using them to.
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I agree Mike
Specifically not allowed is different to not yet approved. Does every Brigade check all equipment purchase against some type of approved list?
I know of five or six types of branches in service within SACFS are they specifically approved for use? Or is this a local purchase decision??
Likewise goggles I see all sorts of differing goggles on fire grounds which one is approved???
Flash hoods should not be seen as some scary new thing it is a simple concept of protection.
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I believe brigades recieved memo's about them a while ago, that they should not be bought, or specifically used, out of STC.
When you bring up the fact about how if they are used there, then they must be allowed..?? They are ONLY to be used there, in a Training environment, UNDER SUPERVISION from an instructor.
Ring STC, ask to speak to one of the Instructors, or specifically Cmdr. Wayne Atkins (As he was instructing on my CFB course, and informed us about this issue) ... and ask if you are allowed to go and buy, and wear a Flash hood. I think you will get told.
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As a member who received burns to my neck at a structure job (yes the helmet nape was down and the turnout coat collar was up) I would strongly recommend the use of flash hoods. The use of them is mandatory to do CFB training in this state, and we train to do things the way they should be done at a job.
Why is the risk of serious burns to ones head any less likely in a real job than in a compartment under relatively controlled conditions.
I can't understand anyone saying we shouldn't be wearing them, train people to look for the signs and then protect them from dangers..
nn (with flashhood in turnout coat ready for use :evil: )
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Ahhh - good debate - as for the incorrect and defensive reply to my post re motor sport firies wearing them and their PPE - there was no malice there - as a Motor Sport firie I wear one to the standard stipulated by CAMS, however when the weather is cold enough, I wear my structural one for the extra protection it offers and yes it meets the Aust and NFPA standards!!
CFS does have an approved list of equipment - it is available via Regional Offices and also via HQ. The issue of flash hoods was and remains ensuring that when they are used, they are used appropriately and by persons who understand what a fire is doing.
Those of you who have entered the compartment drills or been against the live fire props will know that a flash hood provides extra protection (hence why they are worn) and also an extra level of mental security - i.e. you body can't feel the heat as quickly. CFS and ALL of those involved in Compartment and Live Fire Training acknowledge that Flash Hoods are excellent PPE, however also acknowledge that CFS needs to ensure they are used appropriately and that people don't relay on them as their 'coat of armour'!
They will eventually be approved, once suitable testing is concluded and also once firm and tested procedures are developed - after all we all acknowledge that they are a great and useful piece of PPE!
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QUOTED TEXT FROM NOMEX NUGGET
As a member who received burns to my neck at a structure job (yes the helmet nape was down and the turnout coat collar was up) I would strongly recommend the use of flash hoods. (1)The use of them is mandatory to do CFB training in this state, and we train to do things the way they should be done at a job.
Why is the risk of serious burns to ones head any less likely in a real job than in a compartment under relatively controlled conditions.
(2)I can't understand anyone saying we shouldn't be wearing them, train people to look for the signs and then protect them from dangers..
nn (with flashhood in turnout coat ready for use :evil: )
END QUOTED TEXT____________________________________
(1) ... No we don't, I was informed by my instructor we train with the Flash hoods in that environment only, and they shouldnt be worn YET on the job, untill they are approved. So there is one thing you may want to check up on before you give people the wrong idea..
(2)... Because they are not yet approved... Seems like a good reason to be saying they shouldn't be worn.
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Ahhh - good debate - as for the incorrect and defensive reply to my post re motor sport firies wearing them and their PPE - there was no malice there - as a Motor Sport firie I wear one to the standard stipulated by CAMS, however when the weather is cold enough, I wear my structural one for the extra protection it offers and yes it meets the Aust and NFPA standards!!
CFS does have an approved list of equipment - it is available via Regional Offices and also via HQ. The issue of flash hoods was and remains ensuring that when they are used, they are used appropriately and by persons who understand what a fire is doing.
Those of you who have entered the compartment drills or been against the live fire props will know that a flash hood provides extra protection (hence why they are worn) and also an extra level of mental security - i.e. you body can't feel the heat as quickly. CFS and ALL of those involved in Compartment and Live Fire Training acknowledge that Flash Hoods are excellent PPE, however also acknowledge that CFS needs to ensure they are used appropriately and that people don't relay on them as their 'coat of armour'!
They will eventually be approved, once suitable testing is concluded and also once firm and tested procedures are developed - after all we all acknowledge that they are a great and useful piece of PPE!
Cheers for clearing that up about the Motor Sport, didn't think any Malice was intended. :-)
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I believe brigades recieved memo's about them a while ago, that they should not be bought, or specifically used, out of STC.
Really? I get rather frustrated when I hear of yet another memo telling us that we should or should not be doing something that seems to have not made it to our mailbox! All the personnel in our Brigade that receive correspondence are excellent and prompt at sharing it so I can only surmise that perhaps they are region specific mail outs or in some cases not official memos at all but Group directives or even just "someone thought they saw that once, somewhere".
Does every Brigade check all equipment purchase against some type of approved list?
My turn for quoting unverified memos - I "thought I saw somewhere once something" that suggested that we did have to seek approval for any piece of operational equipment outside standard stowage (ie: came with vehicle) before purchase??
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Re: The memo, It was only something I was told, havent seen it myself. But was told by a very creditable source.
And in regards to approval of equipment, I think you are right KAT, I believe you do need to seek approval for anything that is not classified as Standard CFS stowage.
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does anyone carry rural flash hood with their gear??
i have had a quick look on the net asnd found that various services carry them as personal ppe... including the NSWRFS who have a set down SOP that flash hoods will be worn at structure fires by BA operators and all firefighters will carry rural flash hoods at grassys, etc...
just wondering if anyone has personal experience as i was considering looking into one... might eb a great thing to be carrying on me the in case the day arrives when it all turns to s**t.
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I was unaware of there being a different grading for Flashhoods.
Any info on these Rural ones Alex ?
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There are two standards that relate to fire fighting apparel - however I can't access the specifics from standards australia to see the difference, if any, between structural and wildfire hoods. However here is the NSWRFS Policy:
Flash Hoods
Flash hoods are designed to be worn during offensive structural firefighting and to be donned when bush firefighting if in danger of fire overrun.
Flash hoods are manufactured to meet ISO 11613. Contract Name & Number
Protective Clothing for the NSW Rural Fire Service. Contract No(s): 981/1247
Offensive Firefighting:
· The flash hood is to be donned according to the Breathing Apparatus manual.
· The flash hood should be donned and pulled down around the neck.
· Ensure the flash hood is tucked under the collar of the offensive firefighting jacket.
· After the BA face mask is put on, the flash hood is pulled up and around the BA mask, face and head covering all exposed skin/hair and does not impede the vision of the wearer.
The structural helmet is donned after the flash hood is pulled up.
· Finally, turn up the protective collar of the offensive firefighting jacket and lock neck protector into place.
· The use of flash hoods for offensive firefighting is stipulated in Service Standard 5.1.5 and Fireground SOP 41.
Bush Firefighting:
· The flash hood is to be carried in the pocket.
· If in danger of being overrun or trapped in a fire, remove flash hood from pocket and remove bushfire helmet. Turn up the protective collar of the bushfire jacket or overalls.
· The flash hood is to be donned over the bushfire goggle, smoke respirator, head, face and collar.
· The user must ensure the flash hood is closed around the bushfire goggle, but does not impede the vision of the wearer.
· Once the flash hood is fitted correctly the bushfire helmet must be put on.
· The use of flash hood for bush firefighting and defensive firefighting is stipulated in Service Standard 5.1.5 and Fireground SOP 41.
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thanks oz fire
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Cheers for the info. :-)
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Just out of curiosity, if the Flashoods aren't approved by the CFS, does that mean that technically we can't wear our own clothes under our PPE either, unless its approved by CFS? :-P
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i dont think so CFS_Firey, that seems like it would be massively overboard, however i have read in several places recommendations of what should be worn under ppe.
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Your clothes arent being worn as PPE. Where as the flash-hood would be.
Apparently something must have gone out last week about the f/hoods, as Captain told members at training on monday that if any one had them, they were not to be worn untill further notice. (E.G - Until they were approved)
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Apparently something must have gone out last week about the f/hoods, as Captain told members at training on Monday that if any one had them, they were not to be worn until further notice. (E.G - Until they were approved)
I haven't heard anything about that memo yet, but if you could tell us when CFS has approved it, that would be appreciated :-D
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Well, now the safecom bill is being passed m.f.s and c.f.s come under the same OHS&W legislation, so either no-one wears them or we all wear them!
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Well, all I can say, is CFS better get there act into gear, and approve the flash hoods. They are putting lives at risk!!
(My view only!)
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Naracoorte has given these out to caba members for the past two years and they have come in good use at a number of going jobs. The first one that comes to mind is flash over at a shed fire where a number of members where put to the test and the hoods worked. But are these part of CFS gear????? Not sure but no one has stopped us buying them....
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You can buy as many as you like, but if something isn't approved it means you shouldn't be wearing them....
I can buy a red or blue light, doesn't mean I can use it.
Maybe its something VFBA, or brigade reps can take to there management committees?? That they want to wear this equipment, but are not allowed to. At the end of the day, it is about personal Safety!
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Quote from strikeathird
>>I can buy a red or blue light, doesn't mean I can use it.>>
Can you? :-o
You're lucky. :-) Our Brigade has had quite an uphill struggle at times to get suppliers to supply our local auto electrician with emergency strobes/beacons.
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Yessum, doesn't mean I do... LOL.
If you continue to struggle, PM me, and I will give you the contact details of a couple of suppliers from S.A.
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Regarding the use of falshhoods;
I was at my group training meeting last night and was told by the deputy GO that flashoods can now be used by CFS personell for structural fire fighting use.
However, I don't beleive there is a CFS standard flashhood yet as he said the CFS couldn't decide whether to adopt the American or British standard. This is due to the fact that they both use different types and there are a lot of different brands.
Unfortunately though, the CFS has said that they will be at a groups expense. So those groups with a lot of money to spare will probably buy them for all there CABA operatrs and those without enough money to spare will probably have to go without for the time being.
This is just what I was told, but don't take it for granted.
On another note, I thought that flashhoods might have been incorporated into the pbi "structural fire-fighting suits", but obviously not.
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aaarrgh.... flash hoods, obviously some ppl do have them/do use them. wether brigade supplied or otherwise....
(http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/photos/sacfs-lynd-act.jpg)
**pic from promotions site
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Obviously - but then there are also groups/brigades who have stock piled large quantities of Nomex to delay the purchase of PBI Gold!!!!!
Doesn't mean thats the right thing to do!
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im not saying its the right thing to do
in fact i disagree with any stockpiling of any equipment...
was just noting that these kinds of thigns are obviously already popping up in the service
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Very true!
But then I remember a day when:
- a group was ridiculed for two piece PPE - now thats the norm!
- a group was ridiculed for zip up boots with ankle support - now thats the norm
- PTO pumps were for the rich brigades and the 'want a be's' near Adelaide
- when CFS trucks were red and white ones were frowned upon and a ball was held to stop the transition
- I know brigades that until 3 years ago still wore khaki overalls.
Times change, standards change, needs change - the thread needs to be, lets find out, if the change is waranted and how we can aid in it occurring!
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I have asked on a number of levels what can be done to " aid " or assist in getting clearance for wearing a hood. I have been told by most that we can argue the matter until blue in the face, but nothing will change until it is approved............. (Asked last night about being able to wear them for Structure use only, as was mentioned a few posts above, and nothing is known about that.)
So, my question... Who is in charge of approving such an item for the CFS. (knowing the MFS have it approved, and most other services around Australia), and how do we put the pressure on, so this life saving piece of equipment can be worn at the appropriate jobs ????
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Yes some brigades have been wearing flashoods for at least the past twelve months, shock horror that we would want the best protection for our members going into an unpredictable and dangerous situation. We have since been directed (in the last couple of weeks) to cease wearing them until a policy is worked out.
"I have asked on a number of levels what can be done to " aid " or assist in getting clearance for wearing a hood" '
Strikeathird you will be pleased to hear that one of our deputies has taken up the cause and is currently pushing hard at Region and State levels to have them approved, stay tuned....
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I am still chasing up the source of my DGO's information regarding the use of falshoods, but on another note, I saw a regional officer wearing a flashood at a gas prop training - He wasn't actually wearing it, it was pulled down around his neck????
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I believe they are used at Brukunga on all Hotpad, and Compartment training excercises. That is the only place I believe CFS members can wear them... During that training, and under supervision of an instructor.
And hopefully soon, they will be approved for out side of brukunga use.
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Utimatley Tech Services in HQ sign them off.
The people to forward questions to " Mr. A Tindall" as the manager or one of the other staff in there - Andrew Patten was doing the uniform stuff, but don't know if hes still there.
Otherwise - chain of command - up to the region, use the VFBA!
As with anything, we need to be percistant!
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http://www.safirefighter.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=5
nice photo Matt.....
Good to see a set of PBI getting Dirty :-D
But is that a flash hood I see?, and it doesnt look to be put on overly well either....
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lol. Yea, saw that also. Nice photo of the member face to face with an RO wearing his hood........
Does this mean they are now okay to be worn ? :mrgreen:
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lol. Yea, saw that also. Nice photo of the member face to face with an RO wearing his hood........
Does this mean they are now okay to be worn ? :mrgreen:
i think it probably just means that a lot of people are ignoring what they are told, and doing what is best for there on safety.
if you look around the place you will find flashhoods being used all over the state.
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My understanding is if the supplier sells it to you it is past as being approved by H/Q some one can tell me if I am wrong but they have been a part of the service for some 18months or so.. i did see that the ACT fire service and rural fire services have placed a tender for all there members to have them in urban and rural jobs...
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My understanding is if the supplier sells it to you it is past as being approved by H/Q some one can tell me if I am wrong but they have been a part of the service for some 18months or so.. i did see that the ACT fire service and rural fire services have placed a tender for all there members to have them in urban and rural jobs...
Like I said in previous threads mate, I can go and buy a blue and red flashing light, doesn't mean I can use it.
Be careful, just because you can purchase it, does NOT mean it has been approved.....
(In this case, it HAS NOT yet been approved),
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Might be of interest - SAMFS firefighters are lobbying for a second flash hood for their personal kit.
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It still gets me, why we, the CFS, come under the SAFECOM banner, with the MFS, and yet for some reason they can wear flash-hoods, and we cannot!
Can some one explain that one too me????
How STUPID is that !! We do the same darn job ! We risk our lives in the same darn manner! But NOOOOOOOOOOO............... Not allowed to wear a flash hood !!!!!!!!!!!
I give up sometimes.....
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Strikeathird - I'm with you - SAFECom was to bring us closer together????? Yep, I can see that is happening ..... funny OH&S legislation, would now have the CEO SAFECom as the responsible officer ........ therefore should standards not be the same???
Oh well, cant rush these people too much, it is only a safety issue, like driver training, courses for new equipment, courses for old equipment, SOP's, SAP's et all for PPE .... I think there is a long list
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So.... who said SAFECOM was ment to bring us together and make our lives simpler????
They might wake up and smell the coffee one day.....
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So if safecom was ment to bring us closer, does that mean we will not have to do any reacredts on RCR.CABA and so on???? :?
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So if safecom was ment to bring us closer, does that mean we will not have to do any reacredts on RCR.CABA and so on???? :?
I'm not sure but I'm thinking that to have no need for a reacred you'd have to have documented evidence of regular, quality training and usage. Perhaps the MFS have this and perhaps a lot of CFS vollies don't? When I was actively BA Instructing it was evident that despite whatever our policies are that the last time a lot of these operators had donned a set was at their course 5 years prior.