SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: THE RANGER on March 04, 2010, 08:49:05 PM
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Great an election is looming - good timing to get some press - one side (of politics) offers 9M the others 13M. Well lets see what happens when these pollies find out that while they are chasing brownie points to encourage new members the bureaucrats in the CFS want to take one of our trucks.
The thing is its over 12 years old - is in good condition and owes knowone anything (some diesel and a service now and then) and its damn reliable, something which is comforting considering its role. This is getting personal, and its only just begun.
Oh yeah I have heard it could be the activation of the minimum fire cover thing -you know "Rural Brigades on need one truck" - mmm, well I guess we don't need so many members that's easy.
I have tried my best and succeeded to get 2 new members others have brought in another 6 in the last 2 years, why :?, it the rural brigades that have the members on tap 24 / 7 because we work where we live.
No offence intended to the town based brigades - we are all brothers (and sisters) in arms, we do what we do for our community not for fame or fortune.
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Any chance of a bit more detail ?
You need to look at it without emotion, how many runs does that truck do a year, is it just a people carrier, what would happen if you didn't have that truck.
I am guessing you have been told you are going from a 2 truck station back to a 1 truck station, have they offered you anything else eg a QRV (or whatever they are this week) ?
There has to be a reason.....pity we don't know where you are :-)
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The ranger
welcome to the forum.
Can you please post a more detailed and reasonable post. the one above sounds like it could happen in CFS but your post is more like a whine which we could all post our own sob stories. Please make it a logical and direct augment like Darren suggested or i will remove this thread
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That would be range hope forest he is talking about :roll:
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Yep now the word is out... and the response well now its official.
We are destined to become a single truck station, so they start with us, which 2 truck rural brigade loses their truck next.
Watch this space, we will make sure we stick up for all rural brigades. :wink:
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Yes its bad your losing it, but why, what arguement do you have, not saying you shouldn't have it, just playing devils advocate, been through the process of losing appropriate trucks before, and I can tell you, its a lot of work getting the right mix, they need facts and figure, and they LOVE graphs...!! (by the way I thought the term old girl was a bit rich !)
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We realise the stats and graphs will be pulled out, we are ready. The official response re sending the 24 to a higher risk area..mmm let me see a rural brigade, located on top of an escarpment(the same location the Ash Wednesday fires began), a pine forest, a conservation park, no mains water, 100+ ha of new farm Foresty and more on the way, can't wait to see their, higher risk area
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So does Range Hope Forest have any town as such to look after? or is it completely a rural brigade?
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Completely rural - however explain how this is different to the land owners who have had fires on their properties this year, last year etc in one case 2 fires in the last 12 months . Keep in mind we are their in a second for our local towns, and strike team, why we always have a second crew and truck to cover our area.
Take away our redundancy and leave our property owners with no back up, that's forward planning.
Lets pull out the stats, don't use the South Australian Country Fire Service Promotions Unit stats, have no idea where they come from.
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The stats from the promotion unit are pulled directly from the AIRS reports you put in after every call. Are you filling one out for every call you attend ? Thats where a lot of the time they work out what equipment is being used, say for example you do 30 calls, and of those 30 your second appliance does maybe 5 calls, then realyl its not being use dis it.
Just remember, these questions are what will be asked of you when you go and argue the point.
Would a tanker be a better option for your brigade ?
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well buddy post ya stats up so we can see...pretty much my point of view from outside not knowing bugger all bout ya brigade or ya response area or call out rates..ya pretty lucky to have a 2 truck station for rural response and if the call numbers arent there i guess its what the powers to be look at.. Has their been any mention of your 24 being replaced with a QRV?
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Quote "The term Rural Area has several definitions, however, in the context of CFS coverage area, can be defined as large areas of a country, outside a township boundary, often with low population, and may include areas of grasslands, bushland and crops".
Based on this 3 of the first 8 brigades I checked were rural all with 2 or more vehicles, this puts allot of brigades in the same position.
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So where is your truck destined to go?
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Um is there something a little bit a miss. I can understand that some poeple don't want the paid staff to know who they are but lets not go to far with guessing what we are talking about.
My weje board tells me you in the south east and that you on the limestone coast but other than that the puzzle continues. So lighten up with a bit of details or point us in the right dirrection rather than leave us in the the dark.
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No secret, the powers to be know about it now, it was on the channel 10 news today. As mentioned Range / Hope Forest, as the name suggests they have already merged two brigades in to one.
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So this is what i understand this to be...
RHF have two trucks a 34 and a 24 and have been told by whoever that there 24 is going to be relocated to another brigade for whichever reasons that im sure have been given to the brigade.
RHF have rightfully kicked up and opposed the actions to try and keep two trucks to service there community.
Other than that i don see any problems unless more info is provided to the forum so until than i guess we will all sit back and have our own thoughts.
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To sum up the last few posts, your unlikely to get to much sympathy from the forums without justification. Thats not to say your response is over the top.... but there needs to be some reason included.
The following questions have been put out to help gain a better perspective:
1. What were the reasons given for the relocation of the appliance?
2. How many calls have both trucks attended at the same time? (~5 year avg)
3. How many calls have occured while the first appliance is already allocated to another job? (~5 year avg)
4. Has an alternative resource allocation been offered (eg. QRV) or a straight reduction to a single appliance station?
Taking a bit of the passion you are showing for your brigade and combining it with good data will go a long long way.
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and: what does the SFEC say for your brigade? (I know it's out of date etc but is a starting point at least)
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and: what does the SFEC say for your brigade? (I know it's out of date etc but is a starting point at least)
Good point already on it, yes in the most basic form we do come under the single appliance guidelines however under section 2.4 "RURAL BRIGADE TYPE DESCRIPTION" there are exemptions and provisions for additional appliances may be provided if no mains water is available and or terrain ,rural threat or activity levels all theses apply.
Terrain - the elevations of 150m+ < 1000m
Rural Threat - Due to high levels of intensive Ag major tractor movements, slashers, gas guns.
Activity levels - as the suburbs move south - hoon driving has caused fire and increased threat of accident.
Also note the SFEC for Rural/Urban also states the Standard Appliance requirement of 1 (ONE)appliance.
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So what reasons has the Regional Commander given for all of a sudden taking a truck away ? What discussion if any has happened between region,group and brigade ?
I was also under the impression that you had a second truck for use at South Coast training centre ?
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I'd say that as rural brigade your damn lucky to have 2 appliances, I know of an rural\urban brigade who is also one of the groups strike team brigades, cover 3 townships (4 if you count a neighbouring brigade who aren't BA with a 14) & they only have a single appliance so when it goes on strike team there are 4 towns with no cover.
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The official response is "The Brigade meets standards for a 1 appliance station, and it will (the 24 appliance) be more valueable in a higher fire risk area" Lets see where this is.
Yes it was used by the Southern Training Centre - however remained badged RHF 24 NOT Southern Training Center, it was part of the condition of the two brigades accepting the agreement to merge.
If what you say is correct then the CFS has additional work to do - why isn't this brigade or their community saying any thing about it.
Futher more our 34 is often part of a Strike team at times its away when we have fires in our area - lucky for us we have a crew and the 24 to fill this situation.
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G'day Ranger
Document, document, document.
Including agreements made by CFS on amalgamation.
Forward same to CFSVA for inclusion in log of grievances to the minister
(whoever that may be in a fortnight). When you get down to tin tacks,
you are losing your second appliance because there is no money to buy
one for the brigade which is getting yours.
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Yeah - your thoughts are being carried out as I type, however the comment
"When you get down to tin tacks, you are losing your second appliance because there is no money to buy one for the brigade which is getting yours."
Is possibly the actual reason however the reasons we have heard - its 1/ Deployment in a higher fire risk area or 2/ Added to the pool for a replacement vehicle.
You input is greatly appreciated, thanks :-)
SOME STATS
OF 68 call outs in the last 5 years RHF 24 has been responded 23 times, more importantly in the last 2 years we have had 14 call outs for fires of witch RHF 24 responded to 9 that over 60% of the time. It also shows the need for increased protection as in some cases this is due to RHF 34 being tasked elsewhere.
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The truck gets used on average 4 times a year. You have a new 34, and a new station. I'd suggest you're pretty well off.
I would wholeheartedly agree that the 24 is of more use somewhere else, not to mention that I don't believe SACFS Brigades with such a low callout rate should see brand new Appliances. Nothing wrong with a refurb! (But hey, this isn't really about SACFS appliance replacement "Strategy")
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The truck gets used on average 4 times a year. You have a new 34, and a new station. I'd suggest you're pretty well off.
I would wholeheartedly agree that the 24 is of more use somewhere else, not to mention that I don't believe SACFS Brigades with such a low callout rate should see brand new Appliances. Nothing wrong with a refurb! (But hey, this isn't really about SACFS appliance replacement "Strategy")
I tend to agree numbers. That said we would all be worked up if one of our trucks was being relocated but as situation comes clearer unfortunately RANGER the numbers seem to be against you..average of 4 callouts a year doesn't warrant the second truck. Id be interested to hear where it is going? or is it just going in to the "refurb" bunch?
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Actually the the stats relate to fire call outs only relate to fire call outs only, not MVA or trees down. Further more its the total area we cover with the two appliances the response area - keep in mind this was the merger of two brigades thus the area relates to such. The other thing is over 50% of the call outs are fire and unlike a lot of brigades we don't have the luxury of mains water.
The new station was a result of a merger of two brigades. This is fairly common, to allow for extra members and appliances, actually you can blame us for the low cost colourbond option compared to the high cost brick option.
Keep in mind we are not asking for a new appliance we are just asking to keep STATUS QUO, I am sure any brigade would do the same for their community. Anyhow their are many rural and rural/urban brigades which could be next.
Another point is if we are made a single appliance station - what do we do with the existing volunteers as 1 appliance = 15 to 19 members max. Who do we kick?
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Actually the the stats relate to fire call outs only relate to fire call outs only, not MVA or trees down. Further more its the total area we cover with the two appliances the response area - keep in mind this was the merger of two brigades thus the area relates to such. The other thing is over 50% of the call outs are fire and unlike a lot of brigades we don't have the luxury of mains water.
You don't fill out AIRS reports for ALL your incidents?
Why not give us the real stats? ALL your calls?
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You don't fill out AIRS reports for ALL your incidents?
Why not give us the real stats? ALL your calls?
You seem to want to know allot, are you from region or something?
Again say region do get our truck... if you were Captian of your brigade who would you kick... your older, not so fast but experienced members or the younger longer term inexperienced members...?
I mean if I was in region I would ask why are we supplying 25-30 sets of PPE and pagers to a single appliance station.
Mmm.. no wonder our police checks keep taking 12 months to come back, they have been holding our membership back by stealth..... :|
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AAAH the conspiracy theory :wink:.
No what Numbers was asking was have you filled out AIRS reports for "ALL" of your brigades turnout activities, nothing more nothing less!
Now about the second shooter on the grassy knoll
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I have tried my best and succeeded to get 2 new members others have brought in another 6 in the last 2 years, why :?, it the rural brigades that have the members on tap 24 / 7 because we work where we live.
gday ranger
i dont want to sound picky but the pastrol brigades have a very hard time in getting new members the brigade im in we only have 5 members including my self our next closes brigade has 4 members and not all the time they can get mobile . so any brigade that can get 3-5 new members a year and still responde a truck(s) to each call i take my hat off to you :|
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for 5 calls a year I'd be asking why you have a Brigade, station and appliance at all, let alone a second appliance
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for 5 calls a year I'd be asking why you have a Brigade, station and appliance at all, let alone a second appliance
Brave call my fellow volunteer, keep in mind its capacity to respond, level of risk and location. What stats are you reading?
Further more how can you get stats when we find other brigades responded to our area and we are not even paged, believe me it happens in addition why doesn't SOP 2.1 apply in reality. OK ADMIN...off topic.
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for 5 calls a year I'd be asking why you have a Brigade, station and appliance at all, let alone a second appliance
you've misread the figures he gave, he said 68 calls over last 5 years, so average of 13.6 calls/year for the brigade.
but unfortunately it does look, by the stats and by the risks, that the brigade would have a hard time justifying both a 34 and a 24. Maybe Ranger you should argue for a QRV or a tanker to replace the 24?
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you've misread the figures he gave, he said 68 calls over last 5 years, so average of 13.6 calls/year for the brigade.
my mistake, 13 calls a year makes all the difference
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Fellow Firefighters, an update - first thanks to the members that offered support and useful comments - the ones that suggested we didn't deserve even a 24 or station if you find yourself in a similar situation don't come complain :wink: only kidding no hard feelings, we all whats best for our communities.
What happened - well we met with the region commander last night - after useful dialogue between a few of our officers - brigade, group and region we came to a compromise.
For the time being the 24 remains however becomes a part of the regions pool, so we will look after it for all you in region 1, from time to time it may be called upon when some others brigade need to fill a hole - this happened before from time to time. The good old 24 actually left for KI for a month or so at one time.
The past is history - time to move one "Note to self - make sure the AIRS are filled in it in our interest"
Constructive or not - it was good to get feedback from fellow firefighters (however you new who we were, we had no idea who you are, I feel sure one of the aliases could be region - because if I was in region I would watch this forum)keep the good work up.
If the Flying Doctors are the "Mantel of Safety" surely the CFS are the "Defenders of safety" because that's what we spent the last week doing for our comunity to ensure in the future we could provide them with quick reliable and sustainable fire cover.
It was fantastic to see even though we don't get the cartons of beer or donations we used to before the Emergency Services Levy - the community support was amazing.
Who know the good old RHF24 may help you out down the track - if you are lucky enough to be in Region 1.
So thanks to and for now this is the 'THE RANGER' signing off and hope to see you all again on the forum or if called to arms in the field. :-D
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But what happens when this truck reaches 20 years old ?
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But what happens when this truck reaches 20 years old ?
mmmm exactly darren... the argument will arise again.
good outcome for the meantime though.
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We are putting in an application for a QAV or TANKER we still need to go thru the application and put forward our reasons however considering our current group tanker is a semi with no truck, it a good chance it will be approved.
Further more with the number of vineyards and farm Forestry their also is an argument for a QAV. However no chance of getting a 24 again :-(.
In the mean time we have the good old 24, unless some damages their own, however that unlikely as Region 1 drivers are great operators. :-D We hope
Time will tell..
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semi with no truck, it a good chance it will be approved
hah... you assume management use common sense
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semi with no truck, it a good chance it will be approved
hah... you assume management use common sense
mmmmm well id assume a new BWC would be $100,000 + or could go buy a prime mover for the semi for between $30,000 - $50,000. All in All a good out come for the Brigade and in end a whole lot of WHOOOOO HAAAAA over not much :-)
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mmmmm well id assume a new BWC would be $100,000 + or could go buy a prime mover for the semi for between $30,000 - $50,000. All in All a good out come for the Brigade and in end a whole lot of WHOOOOO HAAAAA over not much :-)
First - In defence of the CFS they buy new because reliability is critical
Second - Finding a brigade that can fit a 36" trailer and prime mover in their shed.
Third - Every group should have a tanker for a quick response, I feel sure your group has.
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If you are buying a prime mover for 20-50 grand then its either done 5 million kms or its well over 20 years old...can't see that happening.
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And a number of BWC have been built on 24 + year old chassis in the last few years.....however I suspect it comes down to either second hand chassis (which have spent their whole life in CFS), or no BWC at all.....
Pip
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Oh I realise that, but they aren't going out and buying old trucks though.
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Oh I realise that, but they aren't going out and buying old trucks though.
Unless its from the UK via NZ :)
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LOL and we know where that one is sitting now :roll:
To put it simply CFS are maximising the use of an appliance by refurbing them as BWC's.Ours was a classic example, take away a great reliable appliance which had chassis rust, and stick it in a yard for 2 years before deciding what to do with it.
It is now Wattle Range BWC,
I saw the dilemma faced by Range/Hope Forest on the news, and it is a step backwards removing an appliance in a high fire risk area, bounded by Kuitpo Forest!!
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did they use the word "Strategic" at any time? :evil:
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quote - OF 68 call outs in the last 5 years RHF 24 has been responded 23 times, more importantly in the last 2 years we have had 14 call outs for fires of witch RHF 24 responded to 9 that over 60% of the time. It also shows the need for increased protection as in some cases this is due to RHF 34 being tasked elsewhere. :-o
WTF i'm sorry you have got to be kidding !!!
No wonder BOBB - Big Over Baring filtered(RC1) has decided to take away an under utilised vehicle!!!
It would hardly require servicing with such a low call rate.
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You could prbably say that for most of the CFS, the vast majority doing under 30 calls a year.
A tanker would be more a pprpriate for this area as they currently don't have an easily respondible tanker.
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UPDATE, we have decided to go for a 14,with 3 seats, this will help with response time should reduce it by 2-3 min, it also carries around 1600lts, 80% of the 24. Also taking a 34 out everytime to cut a tree up is a bit of a overkill.
Please note this was not all just about the truck, but also keeping the membership up.
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So will this be a new build 14, assuming it will be a single cab like Booleroo 14 ?
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Thats the one, with a couple of minor mods, if we can get them :wink: :wink:
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Third - Every group should have a tanker for a quick response, I feel sure your group has.
Agreed and we're still waiting for one.
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14:04:00 19-05-10 RHF 34 OUT OF ACTION DUE TO MECHANICAL FAULT UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. FROM <name> CFS Range/Hope Forest Info
Oh well, they are a single truck station for awhile now
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Whats the latest Ranger? Heard rumor your not getting anything new anymore?
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Probably got sucked into agreeing to it then oh well your not getting anything else now but we got your 24 off of you.
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Have to change that, i think they got there 34 [only a few years old] replaced with a brand spanker... but no additional appliances?
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Yeah they got the new 34 but the 24 is now the region spare.
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so they average a slice over 13 calls a year....and they have a truck thats a couple of years old replaced with a brand spanker..... do you have a picture of someone in charge with a goat?
What an extraordinarily poor allocation of assets
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There seems to be a lot of wheeling and dealing lately to get people to agree to various things or to "boost" morale.
I don't understand it either.
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The new 34 was to replace a 34 which was part of a batch with a weight distribution issues, which is then fixed, and sent to other brigades, generally outside of hilly areas
I think that the bulk of that batch (which came into service 2004 -05 ish) have now been replaced.... so don't bag the brigade too much for getting a new truck this month!
Pip
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pip i dont think the one they had had any weight problems as our old one was from the same batch and never had any weight problems with it, just that the chassis mounts kept cracking
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Thats right Al, that batch never had any weight issues, ours was the same one and never had a problem, it was the first batch of 2004 Isuzu's with the reels under the tray that were the problem....sorry Pip, no arguement there. They just got lucky.
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Thanks for your support :-P
so they average a slice over 13 calls a year....and they have a truck thats a couple of years old replaced with a brand spanker..... do you have a picture of someone in charge with a goat?
What an extraordinarily poor allocation of assets
UPDATE: First we never asked for a new 34, I was told it was a part of a replacment program, in addition a safty upgrade (halo bar, air etc).
Second, we haven't had our 24 for 5 weeks, its doing group duty repacment thing, so I hear.
Third our new 34 is out of service (tail shaft fault)
The result was RHF is off line.
PS. who ever gets our old 34, apart from the water level sensor, its a good truck :-D.
Alex, unless R1, has gone back on our agreement, yes we will still be geting a 14.
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Haha the water level sensor on our last 34 was about the only thing on the truck that didnt fail
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Ugh, CFS Appliance replacement "policy" makes my brain hurt.
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Hang on, what does the new truck have that the old one didn't, our old 34 had in cab breathing, a HALO etc.
Like numbers said, it makes my brain hurt.
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wow....so a new truck so u could just have some fancy windscreen washers and a bunch of Halloween masks......plenty of brigades doing 10 times your calls would love that.
As Numbers says.....makes your brain hurt wondering why
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Again we didnt ask for the new 34, As for your comment....
wow....so a new truck so u could just have some fancy windscreen washers and a bunch of Halloween masks......plenty of brigades doing 10 times your calls would love that.
As Numbers says.....makes your brain hurt wondering why
I am sure my fellow fire fighters that have been in a burn over would refer to these added safty measures differently. :-o
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i heard rumours that salisburys 34 is being handed over to owen??
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Yeah it is, not sure why it hasn't happened yet really, there is a LOT of trucks sitting at Angle Park waiting to be sent out to brigades.
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Again we didnt ask for the new 34, As for your comment....
wow....so a new truck so u could just have some fancy windscreen washers and a bunch of Halloween masks......plenty of brigades doing 10 times your calls would love that.
As Numbers says.....makes your brain hurt wondering why
I am sure my fellow fire fighters that have been in a burn over would refer to these added safty measures differently. :-o
I don't think anyone is having a go at you guys just the way things are done once the list leaves I&L, they just make a list oh who needs new trucks and it goes from there. Regions decide who gets what...I think we are just trying to work out what you get thats different to the last truck and how they came to the conclusion that you guys should get a new truck and yours would be moved on to a "brigade that does less calls".
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while on new appliances at angle park anyone know anything about next batch QRV'S ?
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Still in the Tonka warehouse.
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Not a big fan of them Zippy?
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very good, for a very small range of use. (Traffic control, containment line building and first attack to rural fires)