SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Firey9119 on May 28, 2008, 09:56:32 PM
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Hey all,
heard to day (and was advised not to post video of cfs calls (photos turned into videos) on you tube as someone has done so and has got in the poop with the cfs
first - does anyone one know anything about this
and second
what do you all think?
my way of thinking is if they are my photos that i took then i can do what i feel fit, am i wrong in thinginig this??
and as they are my photo then there is no copyright.
firey9119
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I would say just be careful with what you post.
Just like you would (should) be with anything on the internet maily
Try and not make identities obvious
but these should really be done out of common courtesy
But in reality i can't see a problem with it considering our news crews rock up and film whatever and then blast it all round the state.
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Phil,have a read of SOP 12.2 in the COSO's that will tell you all you need to know :wink:
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I could have sworn that the SOP 12.2 would be in the SOP's Book. ;)
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I could have sworn that the SOP 12.2 would be in the SOP's Book. ;)
It is, Chief Officers Standing Orders and Standard Operating Procedures October 2007 :-P
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mmmmmm. so if i am reading it correctly we (cfs memeber) cannot take photos/videos of jobs to post on the net or for personnal collections or use for anything other then what is stated end of story........
that sucks.
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On the other hand, SOPs are really just guidelines... :P
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yeah dont stress about them....i know people who break them all the time and they dont seem to have any trouble. :roll:
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i know they are just guideline but a senior has warned me not to post on you tube as he had heared that a member down south has done so and ended up in hot water over it.
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Well since knowone actauly knows what the "member down south" actauly posted or did and how much trouble they got in from whome.
How about someone put soem video on youtube then tell us all what happened :lol:
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And it was not me,it was someone closer to region one.....Hey you can post it on the net but dont go posting items that will upset others,Funny but not so long ago CFS wanted to use photo's that i took of a fire for recruitment....So unless CFS are going to have their own people out there who is going to take the photo's????
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If you read the paperwork, you can post most pictures/videos... with written approval from the cheif.
Be that easy or hard to do.... 'dems da rules.
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SO now the CO's job description needs to include Vetting potential youtube videos :-D
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i guess there will not be an issue just as long as the content is suitable.
then again how do they control it? If a member of the public took the photos and posted them would they still be subject to the SOPs?
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As i understand it you are only subject to sop's if you are acting as part of the CFS. Hence a member of the public wouldn't be and you wouldn't be if you wern't in CFS uniform.
although I don't have a copy i would guess the SOPs says something on this
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here we go again.....
there's no need to post all your "heroic" fire video's on youtube.....the W A N K factor is taken care of by the yanks and their 100 000 vid's of "mississippi 457 responding to a shout"
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there's no need to post all your "heroic" fire video's on youtube.....the W A N K factor is taken care of by the yanks and their 100 000 vid's of "mississippi 457 responding to a shout"
lol
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There has also been a problem with CFS members showing up at call outs(not in there area) taking photo's and getting in the way,some members have also taken it too far buy going out and buying tabards with CFS on it saying they are a CFS photograph when in fact they are members of the cfs just taking photo's...... As I undertsand it the only one's with the Tabards are those who are in the cfs promo unit,sure Pip will help me out there....
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There has also been a problem with CFS members showing up at call outs(not in there area) taking photo's and getting in the way,some members have also taken it too far buy going out and buying tabards with CFS on it saying they are a CFS photograph when in fact they are members of the cfs just taking photo's...... As I undertsand it the only one's with the Tabards are those who are in the cfs promo unit,sure Pip will help me out there....
totaly agree alot of people here and on other forms take the photos when in the right place and the right time, people that go out of there way to get these photos should get a job in the media!!
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I can't see much of a problem with taking photos or video and posting them on the net, as long as people are smart about it.
Making sure that all persons involved have correct PPE and are doing the right thing in accordance to SOP's would have to be the basics. Then perhaps make sure that peoples names/faces aren't visible unless they are happy to have them sitting around on the 'net.
Some of the CFS videos getting around YouTube are good, varied and different, but if I see another video of Seaford CFS turning out, I'll hang myself. Variety is the spice of life, Jono!
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Some how i dont think you will see any more of the Seaford turn outs....I am sure they are down south!!!!!!!
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Some of the CFS videos getting around YouTube are good, varied and different, but if I see another video of Seaford CFS turning out, I'll hang myself. Variety is the spice of life, Jono!
Some how i dont think you will see any more of the Seaford turn outs....I am sure they are down south!!!!!!!
from what i have heared i think you guys are on the right track there and some thing to do with helmet cam!! :-o
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Ahh. The helmet cam.. Could see that was going to be a winner !
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Great tools when used in the right context. If only the Seafood boys had kept that footage private, and part of a brigade collection for training...
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I would think a volunteer service would welcome free marketing, especially a medium as powerful as the net and You tube.
If a volunteer fire service is going to be attractive to Younger people perhaps more you tube videos is needed.
Just a thought..... 8-)
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There has also been a problem with CFS members showing up at call outs(not in there area) taking photo's and getting in the way,some members have also taken it too far buy going out and buying tabards with CFS on it saying they are a CFS photograph when in fact they are members of the cfs just taking photo's...... As I undertsand it the only one's with the Tabards are those who are in the cfs promo unit,sure Pip will help me out there....
There has been issues in the past where people in the CFS have used there pager for all the wrong reasons and turned up inappropriately at incidents to take photos, some times arriving before the fire truck!!! Not on, if you can arrive to take photos then you can turn out with the brigade
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i think if u find the urge to take photos of an incident apart from the appropriate people (promotions unit..or media) u have serious problems...i to have watched that helmet cam thing on you tube....GET OVER IT!!! lol
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i think if u find the urge to take photos of an incident apart from the appropriate people (promotions unit..or media) u have serious problems...i to have watched that helmet cam thing on you tube....GET OVER IT!!! lol
What if its not the incident, but the appliances etc that people are photographing? Like the appaliance photography groups getting around?
The only difference between an avid photorgrapher and a Promotions Unit or Media person, is their business title.. Remember, most probably started at an amateur level!
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Not to mention that about half of the pictures on the promotions unit site are not taken by Pip and Ashes.
What is your problem (mac13, bill) with people taking pictures or footage? it it wrong to feel proud and awesome when you have just saved that house, and want to show some of your handy work?
Also A LOT of what i take at jobs is just for the purpose of brigade memories and never sees the internet. Every so often i print some off and show them round at training and everyone has a laugh and discusses the memories.
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dont have a problem as such..its just my perosnal opinion that id rather get there ge tthe job done and go home and continue what i was doing..i guess i was lookin at more the people that "just turn up" to get some pics for no reason..the media is hard enuff to control with out havin to control happy snappers to
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further to that im alll for promoting the C.F.S image but it needs to be done in the right way
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There is a wide range of reasons why photos are taken at incidents...some have been mentioned here so far.....
Perhaps the most obvious (at least to those on forums like this!) is to publicise the service to others via websites & other forms of printed media.
But the photos that appear in that sort of medium are only a small portion of the photos taken.
Brigades use photos to remind themselves of jobs they have been to or to show other members what they missed.
Then there's photos that can be used for training purposes later on - often within the brigade / group.
And then there's what I will call history type photos......the pics that people take at special brigade events, like the arrival of a new appliance, pics of the founding members who have come back to help celebrate the 50th anniversary of the brigade etc....
I have been working on info for a history website - and coming across photos that people have taken over the last 40 years of CFS makes research so much easier!!! Without "Happy Snappers" pictorial history of brigades would be few & far between...
In taking photos, it became very clear, very early on, that no one wants their photo taken, but everyone wants a good photo of themselves doing their CFS stuff.....
It is important however, that photos are taken with some common sense in mind - and within some suitable guidelines - especially about not getting in the way of the incident activities, not making a nuisance of yourself, taking appropriate photos, and using them in an appropriate manner.
And remember, the photo you take today, is tomorrows history.
Pip
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knocked nail clean on the head pip :-)
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Seams like the CFS working out more ways to rid themselves of members. What do they have to hide such that they need to investigate a volunteers actions, who cares if someone records video of an incident. So I'd like to say that if you film me and put me on youtube, then catch me doing something wrong, go right ahead and try and sue me, I am a volunteer.
Well if Jono comes on this forum I'd just like to say dont be disheartened its just another thing that proves that the government and the CFS couldn't care less about their volunteers.
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Well said PIP.as a person who take's photo's to promote what we do as a service in this day and age I get asked please dont take my photo while at the job,mind you if the local media show up they just take what ever they want with out asking...
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There is a difference in taking your photo and taking an overview photo. Fair enough its not fair for someone to be lined up and a head shot taken without their consent but a general overview of the incident with a few vollies faces being visible, i have no problem with. As you say bill - the media will do the same thing and broadcast it to a cast of thousands.
As far as youtube goes i dont see the problem but if its plain obvious that someone is doing something completely wrong (we all filtered up from time to time) then dont post it. Its not rocket science.
If the CFS still have a problem with it then they need their heads reprogrammed. I understand they are trying to cover their donkey's as far as law suits but people in this world need to take responsibility for their actions and quit suing people just because a mistake was made or someone's "privacy" was breeched. If you are in the publics eye, you no longer have privacy!
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Seams like the CFS working out more ways to rid themselves of members. What do they have to hide such that they need to investigate a volunteers actions, who cares if someone records video of an incident. So I'd like to say that if you film me and put me on youtube, then catch me doing something wrong, go right ahead and try and sue me, I am a volunteer.
Well if Jono comes on this forum I'd just like to say dont be disheartened its just another thing that proves that the government and the CFS couldn't care less about their volunteers.
CFS COSO's & SOP's, various level CFS officers chatting to individuals after posting something inappropriate is hardly trying to find ways to get rid of members.
While not commenting specifically on the member spoken to re the start of this thread, it is important that when in a public forum, the service, and it's members are portrayed in an appropriate manner.
Posting images - be it video, photos etc that show CFS and its members as ill disciplined rednecks, doing inappropriate and dangerous things, making bad comments etc is not going to help boost your membership, nor gain / keep the support of the general community.
The whole aim of the SOP's etc, as I see it, is to ensure that CFS is presented in an appropriate and professional manner by its members.
If one person is spoken to over what may be deemed inappropriate images, and chooses to leave, or is eventually asked to leave as a result of those images, in my mind, is not the CFS finding ways of of getting rid of volunteers!!
Pip
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....If one person is spoken to over what may be deemed inappropriate images, and chooses to leave, or is eventually asked to leave as a result of those images, in my mind, is not the CFS finding ways of of getting rid of volunteers!!...
It depends if it is one person or a small group of staff who are taking the action. If they follow mediation processes which includes discussion, issued warnings & appeals process. Then I personally have no problems if the volunteer breaches that warning then action should be taken.
But I have seen incidents where the staff do not understand the technology (my perception) & are not willing to embrace it. So a 'do not use' or told off has been issued in a military-order style fashion on the basis that the images will produce bad public image or Workcover inspectors will see the image & tell the organisation off.
One volunteer has left the organisation & joined another organisation with great success. Others have withdrawn from the extra activities in the organisation.
This has happened in three organisations within SA and I percieve it to be around the interpretation of 'code of conduct' & use of a quasi-military structure in non-operational management.
"my opinion only"...sorry this is a current bur under my skin :-(
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MMMM I could say something but I better not.....
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end of the day if ur in way or not meant to be there don be there and donhave ur camera out...leave it to the people that are takinthe pics for the best of the C.F.S...
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well if that is the case an we have more official people who are able to take pics or can we "register" with CFS for that privliage?
Bajdas I fully agree that CFS and i assume probably safecom needs to change its "quasi-military structure" as it doesn't help volunteers innovate if broad Don't do it statements are made.
It just holds up stuff :-(
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....If one person is spoken to over what may be deemed inappropriate images, and chooses to leave, or is eventually asked to leave as a result of those images, in my mind, is not the CFS finding ways of of getting rid of volunteers!!...
It depends if it is one person or a small group of staff who are taking the action. If they follow mediation processes which includes discussion, issued warnings & appeals process. Then I personally have no problems if the volunteer breaches that warning then action should be taken.
But I have seen incidents where the staff do not understand the technology (my perception) & are not willing to embrace it. So a 'do not use' or told off has been issued in a military-order style fashion on the basis that the images will produce bad public image or Workcover inspectors will see the image & tell the organisation off.
One volunteer has left the organisation & joined another organisation with great success. Others have withdrawn from the extra activities in the organisation.
This has happened in three organisations within SA and I percieve it to be around the interpretation of 'code of conduct' & use of a quasi-military structure in non-operational management.
"my opinion only"...sorry this is a current bur under my skin :-(
Perhaps to clarify my comments - when I said a person is asked to leave , my intention in that comment was in relation to a person whose behavior is consistently poor in this area, and through due process is asked to leave - I didn't mean that a person who makes one error of judgement be just kicked out by a an overzealous officer (paid or volunteer.
Pip
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Hey all,
heard to day (and was advised not to post video of cfs calls (photos turned into videos) on you tube as someone has done so and has got in the poop with the cfs
first - does anyone one know anything about this
firey9119
No red knuckles here :wink:
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I walk a fine line with taking pics at incidents and took a while to work out how to handle it. (I normally take sports pics etc for our local paper but do get called on to take extra pics when something is happening in our town and there is no one around to cover it) What I have done is spoken to my Captain and GO and explained to them that I will not turn up as the media unless I have been contacted by another reporter and that I will never use my knowledge from the pager or from handling an incident to take pics. I might take some pics with my own camera for own personal/brigade use but never for publication. There have been many a time that I could have taken pics from being at an incident (yes I have kicked myself because I haven't) but as I have not being contacted to do so I have restrained myself (as an adult I guess I have the ability to be able to control myself and act correctly - shock horror)
This has been working for me, but I guess it is working because I abide by my own rules that I have set for myself so as to not cause any problems. A lot of the time media will actually get pics from an incident from SAPOL or SAAS as far as I can tell as they have certainly not been pics that I took that appeared in publication and the only other people taking pics were from those organisations.
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Nothing wrong with what you are doing Kat,you have covered your rear by talking to the captain and the GO and if they are happy for you to take photo's then so be it. We have taken photo's over the years and i guess the key rule is to ASK first may sure what you are taking is not going to upset anyone and that you don't pass on a photo that will come back and bite you on the rear. I don't take any photo's of MVA'S where a person has been killed as this does and has caused problems for family and friends.
If you look at the 3 postings that I have on YOUTUBE there is nothing wrong with them and just for the record I am now working on my 4th Youtube post and until I get something in the mail saying you cant do it then I will keep on doing it...YOUTUBE has become a very good tool if used the right way to promote what the CFS does but also to recruit new members...
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YouTube is also used by HQ as they have posted videos themselves.I always thought it was good to show the public what we do and not just fight fires.
Not all of us are mushrooms :-P
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Some of us eat too many apparently...
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i think that it should be allowed but what would i know im only new :?
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:lol:is that the eating of mushrooms or the taking of photos :-)
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If we dont take the photos someone else will :-P
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If we dont take the photos someone else will :-P
Is that like saying if we don't start lighting fires, someone else will? :P
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At least with photos, with more people taking them doesn't diminish the image being taken....! :-D (As long as some idiots learn some photo taking manners, and not get in the way of other people's shots!! )
Pip
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There is a less number of large incidents to photograph too!!
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That would be because its too cold and winter is here :roll:
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The issue of taking pics at incidents came up at a group meeting in my region recently, where the a group officer stated that they didn't approve of photos being taken at incidents, and that they had been told by a coroner that photos of mva's were a definite no go in the eyes of the coroner. Now i'm one who likes to take a fair amount of photos, at training, on strike teams, etc, and i've found that they do come in very handy for training purposes and for those members who didn't make the call. I always make the effort to try and take respectful photos if there are deceased involved. (ie - no recognisable features or gory stuff) Does anyone know if there is a COSO or SOP regarding photo taking?
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You just have to be careful of what you are taking and where you intend to post the photo's,I know Naracoorte brigade it was a rule and a very good one that any RCR photo's where to stay in the station and not posted on a site or show en to the public..The Corenor is right in one way bur what about when it take AIS 8 or 12 hrs to get to a job and its 45 outside??. I know that when i was with Naracoorte that the police did take our photos as we had been there a hell of a lot longer than them...
Keep in mind we are now being asked to document all that we do/say/see so taking photos is the best way to record all that we do..I would say that someone up the ladder has got their nose out of joint and so we are hearing all this and that,but has anyone seen anything official yet??
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sop 12. something (2 i think)
in short you can;t release pictures without permission from the CO.
The debate really shouldn't be weather you take them at jobs but what you release to the public.
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Never heard the Coroner talk about not taking photos at an MVA etc.....I think someone might be telling porkie pies...
The COSO sets out about taking photos & videos - it talks about the PURPOSE that the photos are taken. Taking pics for your own (or the brigade's) "gore" file is not one of them!
The COSO also talks out what is required to release images to the media...
Pip
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FROM WHAT I AHVE SEEN, HEARED, BEEN TOLD THE CFS IS LOOKING VERY CLOSE AT WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING!!!
:x :x :x :x
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They may well be...and I don't see anything wrong with a service looking carefully at the way it's members present themselves to the public / media.
If people don't comply with documented procedures that relate to posting of images etc, then why shouldn't they be told(nicely).
Pip
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They may well be...and I don't see anything wrong with a service looking carefully at the way it's members present themselves to the public / media.
mmmm this is probably the big one, discretion when taking photos is fairly important...
we had an mva in our area not long ago, simple accident, no big issues. however there was one embaressed driver who had damaged his mums new car..
looie gets the camera out and starts snapping right in front of everyone, this angered the driver a bit and prompted a loud discussion in front of everyone, saas & sapol where he offered to take the photo while all of us posed in front of the car if we wished.....
the embaressed looks made me laugh...
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FROM WHAT I AHVE SEEN, HEARED, BEEN TOLD THE CFS IS LOOKING VERY CLOSE AT WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING!!!
:x :x :x :x
You may be right, my knuckles are now red and my Youtube era is now at an end...
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What happend Jono?
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What happend Jono?
I was asked nicely to remove the videos! no problems here.
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What happend Jono?
I was asked nicely to remove the videos! no problems here.
All videos, or ones with specific content? ...and were you given a reason?
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Who asked you to remove them and do they have that authority?
Doesn't seem like CFS is in touch with younger people at all!!!
Mediums like the internet, you tube, face book, etc etc are how people are doing things. It's crazy to police these things when the service is losing volunteers like never before and desperately trying to retain people.
It's issues like these that add to the reason people throw their hands in the air and say it just not worth it......
CFS wake up!!!!
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Realistically i havent seen anything on youtube of the CFS that puts the CFS in a bad light. So why?
The world has gone crazy!
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It is quite interesting considering CFA Victoria have a youtube account and have posted up a number of video's on incidents they have attended. See link below.
http://www.youtube.com/user/cfavic (http://www.youtube.com/user/cfavic)
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I don't think the issue is with CFS members posting CFS stuff to youtube...more about exactly what they are posting, and what vetting / permission have occurred.....
See COSO's for details!!
Pip
PS This post does not refer specifically to Jono's post - I don't know the circumstances surrounding that... :-)
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yeah but the whole permission thing before taking photos etc is getting beyond a joke!
are we all in the witness relocation program and dont want to be identified by the mob boss scanning youtube?
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO BEING A FREE COUNTRY?
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Cam,being in a free country went out the doors years ago......May be CFS should run a workshop for those of us that take photo'sand then that way they can explain the whole problem rather than just getting half the message...Well done to the PROMO unit for putting up on their site a guide to taking photos nice to see Pip and Ash are being more helpful than those in CFS who are being so negative to the whole photo issue....
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yeah but the whole permission thing before taking photos etc is getting beyond a joke!
are we all in the witness relocation program and dont want to be identified by the mob boss scanning youtube?
Sorry Cam, I don't think my post was as clear as it could have been....I don't mean permission of the subject to be photographed, but the permission of the relevant CFS people to post (eg as per the COSO's)....
Pip
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Thats what i get for commmenting at 5am!
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sorry but i stil think the whole thing is bulls*&^!! :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :roll: :roll: :oops:
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Last I knew, If I record still or video photography with my camera, I automatically hold the copyright to that video or image, and that video/image belongs to me.
I also have the understanding that anyone is able to record video/images of anything they are able to, provided that they do so FROM a public place.
If the image or video has some kind of TM or advertising material attached to it, then use of it is limited without written consent of the TM or copyright holder, ie; Clipsal or coka cola.
Any more thought now?..................
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If you don't know the people in the video, nor have their permission, be very careful!.. You will find your self in a bit of trouble if you re-show someones image who happens to have a court injunction witholding the vision of their image.. Same goes with someone who may be involved with witness protection..
Re: This, it would also be quite disapointing to see members at the scene photographing when they could have made a difference by crewing an appliance in the same area.. - Think about the big picture..
Last I knew, If I record still or video photography with my camera, I automatically hold the copyright to that video or image, and that video/image belongs to me.
I also have the understanding that anyone is able to record video/images of anything they are able to, provided that they do so FROM a public place.
If the image or video has some kind of TM or advertising material attached to it, then use of it is limited without written consent of the TM or copyright holder, ie; Clipsal or coka cola.
Any more thought now?..................
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The SAVFBA or what ever there name is this year have just posted a number of items on YOUTUBE so at long last we are looking at better ways of promoting the service. As for photo's well this week i was and still am not happy about photo's that where taken by my wife and I of jobs or events that we have been to and the media unit just used them with out geting permission from us or by saying who took the photo's.
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As for photo's well this week i was and still am not happy about photo's that where taken by my wife and I of jobs or events that we have been to and the media unit just used them with out geting permission from us or by saying who took the photo's.
why? you (or whoever) took them and posted them, presumably as a form of promoting the CFS, so why shouldn't the media unit also use them? If some commercial mob (eg. a fire equipment supplier) used them in their advertising I could understand your point, but this is quite different.
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CFS well the old media unit would ask permission to use any photo from the person that took it and then make sure that that person was thanked in the Volunteer or any other publication that photo's went into. I am not the only one that this has happened too of late how hard is it for the media unit to follow the rule's that where put in place so as to say who's photo it was?
We are happy to provide photo's all we ask is that they seek permission first from those that took the photo.....
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what ever happened to us being professionals and maintaining confidentiality of those we help.
Maybe i just too old school, But why would you want to show other peoples misfortune or stupidity to every body. If push came to shove you could all be held liable for what you post if you cross the wrong person, I guess CFS is just trying to protect its professional name.