SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: MATTE on September 14, 2005, 01:12:23 PM
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Do CFS brigades/groups have their own COQ policies. example: Both Morphett Vale appliances at a prolonged incident Happy Valley dispatch 1 truck/crew to Morphett station or on a larger scale Eden Hills Pumper and 24, Blackwood Cafs, Belair Tanker, Pumper and 14 are at a Prolonged incident would Coro cover their area from Coro Station or would a crew/truck reside at say Eden or Blackwood Station.
Prolonged incident being 2-3 hrs plus
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Yes its a bit of a worry especially in groups that do alot of calls. Theres nothing in place from headquarters its just up to groups.
The trouble is technically no-one needs to care if a busy brigade had no trucks for hours and hours until there was another call.
One thing c.f.s never has done enough of is worry about other calls.
e.g jan 11 can you imagine if there was another fire in the mt lofty group. There should have been another group coming in from way out like coonalpyn or something to cover the adelaide hills.
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Yes it is a big worry, as an officer I have often asked region to step up another brigade to cover my station only to be told "nah, she'll be right" most times we just do it internally and then advise SOC who are doing the resource tracking. At least they no whats going on then.
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Its always a case of IF it happens not when it happens. sooner or later the poos going to hit the fan. Good example tillerman with the mount osmond fires. many stations were left empty and even if appliances were available there were now firefighters left to crew appliances for other responses. This wouldnt apply to every group just the busyier ones, Sturt, Heysen, Mawson Lofty etc.
Once again. the SACFS compromises safety not just of its firefighters but is covered areas (harsh but oh soooo true)
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I don't think SACFS compromise safety, but the negligence of brigades and groups compromises safety.
In 1994 Risk and Response planning was introduced across the service, including brigade, group and regional response planning, including contingencies.
In 1999, just prior to the 2000 NYE and Y2K, again a new model for brigade and group response plans were introduced and many, many brigades did them, due to fears Y2K may actually happen.
In 2003 the latsest Brigade, Group and Regional Response Plan proformas were produced - all Brigades and Groups needed to do was fill in the blanks, not a had task at all, all the hard work, planning, formating and alike was done.
The relevance - all of these plans have included response plans (resources required, moved etc) for brigades that incorporate change of quarters, ensuring that we are not negligent and do leave coverage in our primary areas of responsabilities.
Therefore - who is compromising who?????????
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e.g Jan 11 can you imagine if there was another fire in the mt lofty group. There should have been another group coming in from way out like coonalpyn or something to cover the Adelaide hills.
Actually Stirling (at least) had an appliance change quarters from Currency Creek, (Currency Creek 24), I assume that was part of a strike team to cover Mount Lofty group... However, considering the weather, if there was another fire in the Adelaide hills, we would have been screwed anyway...
As far as Mount Lofty groups plans go, I've never heard of a change of quarters within the group... Its probably more of an issue for bigger groups, as the MLG brigades are so close together. It would take an extra 5 minutes in response time, if there was another job, to simply respond the next brigade...
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My group is not that far apart either, but the problem I have is that people pay to have a fire service, so that service should be maintained. Every time SAMFS have an incident that makes its appliances not readily available, they step up to fill the gap, why are we any different?
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I agree David. It should be done, unfortunately it isn't..... ???
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i disagree with CFS doing COQ to other CFS stations... shouldnt be an issue.
why should the brigade being asked to change quarters have to put there on area at risk of delayed response times... if anything the stations should just be put on standby.
{edit}
that didnt quite come across as i intended... an obvious exception would have to be in the case of a whole group attending one incident, or the like... say for instance Sturt groups area has been cleared of appliances... (they are all at the Sturt cold-stores LOL) perhaps a station in Lofty group would send one appliance down to sit in blackwood station with a crew.. but firstly id be making sure the station changing quarteres still had enough crew for further appliances for there area... although it all starts to get to hard...
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actually come to think of it... during the sturt cold-stores fire.
please someone from sturt group correct me if i am wrong but:
all appliances were commited to fire, except for cherry 24, which i believe was sitting with a full crew in coro station (an example of CFS COQ)
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i disagree with CFS doing COQ to other CFS stations... shouldnt be an issue.
why should the brigade being asked to change quarters have to put there on area at risk of delayed response times... if anything the stations should just be put on standby.
Its not to often a station with a single appliance will be asked to do a COQ, I just think we run to much with the "she'll be right" attitude. We will get caught one day and as an officer I don't want that on my head!
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firetruck - re a Change of Quarters for Sturt Group - yes this has happened a number of times and has been pre-determined, Burnside 32 has a number of times been relocated to Belair station to provide coverage and many years ago, when they were acrtive with the Group others were used - Upper Sturt, Happy Valley and also MFS.
The process adopted was the same as MFS - large risk, now no appliances in the area to cover not one but 3+ brigades risks therefore bring in COQ - it has worked very well and was very quick as it has been pre-determined.
Many country areas have already adopted this, ensuring their major towns are covered and also that they leave strategic appliances in araes to cover various incidents that may occur while all of the other appliances are committed :-)
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Morphett Vale and Kangarilla are the two stations in Mawson group that will have a change of quarters, however for that to happen both stations either side of either MV or Kangarilla have to be empty as well.
For example if Seaford, Morphett Vale and Happy Valley are all committed to an incident an appliance from somewhere else in the group (or even another group if the entire Mawson group is busy) will be deployed to Morphett Vale station.
In general we have activated a COQ at least 4 or 5 times a year.
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I know on Jan 11 MFS had a COQ to Belair Station initally. They firstly sent 203 then another pump was there for a short time. Both appliances ended up tasked to Mount Osmond thought, then an appliance from Strath Group was placed there.
I have no problem with COQ by CFS for CFS and think it should happen more often. IE once there's a Second alarm (or greater) response within an brigade then an appliance from a neighbouring group should be used. This would cover shortfalls in the immediate area and the covering group wouldn't have it's response ability affected too much. An example of this may be if Happy Valley had a going inident in a nursing home at second alarm greater (say needing 6 appliances) then send Belair or Blackwood on COQ. Likewise if Aldinga had a second alarm greater in there response area then cover with Mount Compass or Yankalilla.
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Most groups Invite other brigades into their area when they need the help. "Some" don't though.
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Agreed Striker, but I would like to hope that in the age of CAD that we could have automatic systems in place for primarily first response to all incidents being the closest or quikest, then some intelligence used for decisions about COQ. I always hated having a whole group response in areas of region 1 and thinking oh if theres a structure fire now in the main township of that group where would the fire appliance come from???
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Yes, I believe H/Q should be allowed to get more involved. They see a shortfall of appliances in the group, I believe they should be allowed to put out a *CFSRES COQ page!
At the end of the day, it is the communities safety that is at threat when no fire appliance is available!
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I am sure SOC would love to do it, but unlike SAMFS comms, SOC seem to get told what to do rather than telling what to do.
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hmmmm.. Pity really.
There is nothing stoping the IC of the appliance at an extended job to ask for COQ.
Or maybe that is the problem! Maybe they need to be told that at extended duties they are to request COQ!!
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You can request till your blue in the face, but often Region put a stop to it, again the "she'll be right" attitude comes in, trust me, I have asked and been knocked back.
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I think thats dangerous ! Region need to be told !
(I know, that sounds easier than it actually is !! :-P )
At the end of the day, if they are putting lives at risk, I would make that very clear over the GRN radio when knocked back for a COQ !!
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Just note it in the occurance book, not on my head then, even if I still worry about it.
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Further to Mels post re the COQ to Stirling on 11 Jan.
Stirling pumper with a crew stayed in the station all day.
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Did a COQ to Salisbury for the One Tree Hill fire in February 2004. Responded Priority 1 from Belair to Salisbury at Regions request! Seemed a bit funny driving past a 2 MFS pump station to Salisbury priority 1, when both MFS pumps were less than 2 km's away! My crew didn't mind going through the CBD for it though!
I think there should be official SOP about COQ procedures!
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I think you were responded cause we got a couple of calls after all of our appliances were committed to the fire(pity you didnt get any jobs while you were there!) Was appreciated though to know someone was covering our area.
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Surprised that you were required to go P1 for COQ. i thought that all COQ was P2???
Or is that only MFS Policy?
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Depends on the situation.
And that day, s*** was hitting the fan everywhere.
MFS were getting training appliances out and going P1 change of quarters...
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You ever seen the Burnside video, P1 change of quarters back in the 80's, first one ever.
It can be done but I doubt it needs to happen often, depends on what fire cover is around.
The MFS training trucks went to the dump fire, so they could free up normal pumps, but from the sounds of u\it, they were running very very thin, I was surprised they didn't instigate more CFS COQ's, or where they told they couldn't have them?
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do MFS actually ask for a COQ though?? as far as i know they just page the brigade as they would for any incident... or do they contact GOs?
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MFS usually page direct, but on a few occasions we have been paged by SHQ, depending on how busy it is in their comms.
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do MFS actually ask for a COQ though?? as far as i know they just page the brigade as they would for any incident... or do they contact GOs?
Usually just page direct, just like any other job.
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sorry that was just in relation to something David said... i was implying that i dont think CFS actually gets to decide wether they are going to go or not as it is part of the mutual aid agreement..
The MFS training trucks went to the dump fire, so they could free up normal pumps, but from the sounds of u\it, they were running very very thin, I was surprised they didn't instigate more CFS COQ's, or where they told they couldn't have them?
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They often ask once it gets a bit more than one brigade, but a single COQ they won't ask, its pre=determined in the CFS & MFS SOP'S.
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Pre determined response no longer appears in the MFS or CFS SOP's. Nor will you find it in the Mutual Aid Plan, nor the last few. It did appear in the original Greater Alam ducument and the dual response documents, however with the advent of the updated MFS BOMS (Brigade Operations Management System) there has not been the need. This system is dynamic enough to ensure that where required a resource is moved to provide COQ.
Likewise under the old systems (90's) when more than one CFS brigade a CFS officer went to MFS - this now only occurs following discussions between thye MFS DO/FC and the CFS Regional and State DO's.
The primary reason - the two services are working better together, now have good understandings and through the EMA agreement joint training/familiarisation between those who share common areas or boundaries is allowing greater flexibility and understanding!
As for responding P1 or P2 COQ - MFA Coms will generally advise how quickly they need coverage
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my biggest concern re: COQ to cover CFS area would be for rescue rather than fire cover... since a lot of rescue gear is being stowed on light pumpers these days... and a hell of a lot of groups are more than happy to commit there rescue resources at fire scenes... and in one case i know of they are happy to commit BOTH there rescue resources to the scene (as in unable to respond at all from the fire) thus leaving there groups asses (or is it groups assets??)completely unprotected for rescue
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Guys the trouble is CFS are going to "Multi Purpose" appliances so yes your rescue may be committed to a structure fire or even a grassy. Maybe CFS need to have more rescues? or implement RIV on these other trucks that arnt rescue?
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I think RIV on all general purpose appliances is needed..
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I think RIV on all general purpose appliances is needed..
Wouldn't that be too much like what the MFS have...? We can't have that! (Sarcasm)
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On the topic of Jan 11 Mount Osmond fire and COQ, Mundoo group was responded as strke team at about 5 in the afternoon but halfway there was told to do COQ, Goolwa 34 to Bridgewater, Currency Creek to Stirling and Mount Compass i believe to Eden hills yet when we arrived all stations had their pumpers with crews sitting there!! It was a complete waste of time (my opinion only) and resources!!
But my opinion is that there should be a COQ organised if there are no near resources and theres a chance of another call!!
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I believe they were there for rural cover... Pumpers aren't particularly good for grass fires... (Stirling Pumper only has 2 lengths of 25mm hose...)
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are you sure?? know for a fact that eden pumper was on fireground at mt osmond all day... but even so, so waht if a pumper is sitting in there station.... chances are its not gonna be much use for a grassie
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Yeah, Pumpers can be used for asset protection... (There were quite a few SAMFS pumpers at Mt Osmond) but once you need to start chasing fire into the scrub, they aren't so practical...
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Pumpers are no good for grass fires??? WTF.... Have you ever operated on a pumper appliance? I'm from Burnside where our Volvo pumper is now 24 years old, and probably better than most around the place, especially when fighting rural fires in the hills areas like Mt Osmond, if you think it's just because they have 2 x 25mm lines.... consider the fact they are 90m long are can actually get to fires..... in the areas where pumpers operate such as burnside rural appliances are almost useless because you can't get off road in a lot of places and those you can, if it was burning I wouldn't want to take an appliance anyway! A pumper is more of a multi-use appliance than a rural type plastic fantastic will ever be.....
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not what i said skirkmoe... may have come across that way tho'...
what i meant is, pumpers arent gonna be much use for a grassie, when your offroad/chasing it doen fire tracks etc... although it would be a wonderful world if we could reach every grassfire with just the two 100m hose reels we have on pumper...
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Both appliances play a vital role at any fire, particularly large scale incidents...
Rural trucks can obviously do more off road, and Heavy pumpers are going to be better for pumping gret distances / asset protection..
Now lets not see this thread turn into "Another" pumper thread.