SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Darcyq on December 23, 2008, 11:50:57 AM
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I was wondering if any other Brigades had been told / found out for themselves the affect that the this new regulation will have on drivers. It only effects trucks with a GVM of 12t and over, which would include most if not all 34/34p, pumpers.
Examples that came to mind are: (1)If I work a normal day shift (7 - 3.30)then later that afternoon I get paged at 5pm to respond with a strike team to a large grass,scrub fire that is 20km from our station. We spend 12 hrs on the fire ground before being stood down, under the new regs, I can not now drive home nor can any other driver who is in our crew. A vehicle from the station is then required to deliver another driver to the fireground to bring the truck/crew home.
(2) I am now a truck driver for my day job, I complete a normall shift of 9 hrs. Get a page that evening and put in 3.5 hrs at a fire. Under the regs I can drive to the fire as i can use the exemption seeing as it is a classified emergency, however, i can not drive home or return to my day job as a driver for another 12 hours.
I suppose I more curious as to why CFS has not raised this issue with the brigades, I only came across it by chance reading the Saturdays Advertiser, then last night at brigade, I spoke to one of our members who is a member of SAPOL and discussed it with him.
I believe the brigades also now are required to keep a drivers log, and all drivers are responsible for obtaining and holding a drivers diary. (filled out only if driving further than 100km radius of station) - strike team deployments
Further information at transport.sa.gov.au then follow link to "Heavy vehicle driver fatigue"
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im a farmer and do a lot of truck driving and get around it. so im sure the CFS will get around it somewhere.. i guess a fire ground could be classed as private property so ur not technically drivin on the road
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Just like other regulations ESO's will be exempt, just like they are in NSW, Victoria. And wouldn't use your local SAPOL plod (sorry guys) as a source of info - not unless they are highway patrol or heavy vehicle. Even your SA transport scalies get it wrong!
Final word don't panic! Wait until State HQ's issue instructions & if it were me no way I would carry a work diary until CFS/SES issues a SOP.
How do I know this stuff? Part of my job to advise my company about this stuff & other chain of compliance issues & had to sit through session with Booths transport,another with TSA etc etc.
cheers
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CFS/MFS have always been exempt from driving hour restrictions. You need ro regulate yourself when it comes to the hours/work you do in conjunction with your paid work. If you drive all day and have to drive the next for your paid job it might be a good idea not to go on the strike team. You need to look after yourself after all.
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CFS/MFS are not exempt from the new regs, and any travel over 100 k's, ie Strike Teams requires a Log Book for each driver of an appliance :wink:
From Transport SA
D-Day for Driver Work Diary
It’s out with the old log book and in with the new work diary on 29 December 2008.
The new National Driver Work Diary is part of the heavy vehicle fatigue laws - introduced on 29 September 2008. The new laws apply to trucks, or truck combinations of greater than 12 tonnes gross vehicle mass, and to buses with more than 12 seats.
Drivers must be using a new work diary by 29 December 2008 – otherwise penalties apply.
Drivers doing work within 100 kilometres of the driver base on Standard Hours do not have to carry or complete the work diary.
More info http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/safety/ArticleNewHeavyVehicleDriverFatigueLegislation.pdf
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yea thats absolutely correct...but lets face it whats the chances of the "naughty boys" pullin a cfs strike team up to check their log books..would have to have a heart the size caraway seed :-)
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SA Firey - who said your not exempt? Are you reading the regs or is it crown law opinion?
Here is the exemption in NSW-http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/heavyvehicles/downloads/ministerial_exemption_order-emergency-services-ftsc_2008.pdf
Here is the exemption in SA-
4382 THE SOUTH AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT GAZETTE [11 September 2008
5—Exemption in relation to regulated heavy vehicles used during emergencies
(1) This clause applies to a regulated heavy vehicle being driven in this State that is—
(a) urgently required in response to an emergency; or
(b) under the direction of a supervisor of an emergency service who is controlling or
assisting in the response to an emergency; or
(c) required in relation to the provision of an essential service, or for the repair or
replacement of infrastructure related to an essential service.
(2) This clause only applies in the following circumstances:
(a) if a regulated heavy vehicle to which this clause applies is travelling to an
emergency;
(b) if a regulated heavy vehicle to which this clause applies is being used in the course
of, or in relation to, an emergency;
(c) if a regulated heavy vehicle to which this clause applies is returning from an
emergency (the driver of the vehicle having ceased to be involved in the
emergency).
(3) These regulations (other than regulation 6) do not apply in relation to a regulated heavy
vehicle to which this clause applies in the circumstances set out in subclause (2)(a) or (b).
(4) The following provisions of these regulations do not apply in relation to a regulated heavy
vehicle to which this clause applies in the circumstances set out in subclause (2)(c):
(a) Part 4 Division 1 Subdivision 3 (Work diary requirements);
(b) Part 4 Division 2 (Records relating to drivers).
(5) However, this clause will only apply in respect of the circumstances set out in
subclause (2)(c) if the driver of the regulated heavy vehicle—
(a) before commencing the return journey, has had not less than 10 hours of rest time
(including not less than 6 continuous hours of stationary rest time) during the
24 hours preceding commencement of the return journey; and
(b) makes—
(i) the following written records, to be made before commencing the return
journey:
(A) a description of the emergency;
(B) an estimate of the driver's work time and rest time during the
24 hours preceding commencement of the return journey;
(C) the driver's name and driver's licence number, and the State or
Territory in which the licence was issued; and
(ii) the following written records, to be made at the end of each day on which
the driver drove a regulated heavy vehicle during the return journey:
(A) the registration number of the regulated heavy vehicle;
(B) the date for that day;
(C) an estimate of the driver's work time and rest time during that day;
(D) an estimate of the distance travelled on that day; and
(c) keeps a record referred to in paragraph (b) for a period of not less than 3 years after
it is created (however this condition will be taken to have been complied with if the
record keeper for the driver keeps the record for that period).
(6) This clause expires at the end of 28 September 2011.
(7) In this clause—
emergency means—
(a) an event that causes injury to any person; or
(b) a flood, fire, explosion, natural disaster or similar event; or
(c) a disruption to essential services;
emergency service has the same meaning as in regulation 57.
As you can see there is no requirement due to this exemption. The whole text is available from Transport SA - Transitional arrangements
Finally if it were me I would not carry a work diary for CFS/MFS/SES until an order is issued in writing signed by the 3 service heads, Safecom & the minister.
Otherwise you could be putting your **** on a block so to speak without any good reason. cheers
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Then what does this part mean?
(5) However, this clause will only apply in respect of the circumstances set out in subclause (2)(c) if the driver of the regulated heavy vehicle
(a) before commencing the return journey, has had not less than 10 hours of rest time
(including not less than 6 continuous hours of stationary rest time) during the
24 hours preceding commencement of the return journey; and
(b) makes—
(i) the following written records, to be made before commencing the return
journey:
(A) a description of the emergency;
(B) an estimate of the driver's work time and rest time during the
24 hours preceding commencement of the return journey;
(C) the driver's name and driver's licence number, and the State or
Territory in which the licence was issued; and
(ii) the following written records, to be made at the end of each day on which
the driver drove a regulated heavy vehicle during the return journey:
(A) the registration number of the regulated heavy vehicle;
(B) the date for that day;
(C) an estimate of the driver's work time and rest time during that day;
(D) an estimate of the distance travelled on that day; and
(c) keeps a record referred to in paragraph (b) for a period of not less than 3 years after it is created (however this condition will be taken to have been complied with if the record keeper for the driver keeps the record for that period).
I'm sorry but unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, they still have us, and I can understand their logic for this, just because we are emergency service workers doesn't make us "special", we don't have an extra supply of stamina issued to us so that we're able to work long hours in sometimes arduous conditions. If fact we're probably more likely to be affected by fatigue than a lot of other professional drivers.
What annoys me though, CFS should have notified all brigades ages ago on this.
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bravo chook.....excellent piece of information, thanks for that.
I would assume this is why no-one has heard of it from CFS HQ....they have the same advice. Its certainly the advice MFS got...
Alway good to end the year with a little scare mongering half truths....must be time for a interstate strike team....bring on the deployment cricket matches
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yea thats absolutely correct...but lets face it whats the chances of the "naughty boys" pullin a cfs strike team up to check their log books..would have to have a heart the size caraway seed :-)
They will "...pullin a cfs strike team up to check..." when a truck driver falls asleep at the wheel when driving home & crashes the truck. Then WorkSafeSA, SAPOL, etc will be calling.
An idea to send volunteer relief drivers in a 4wd or car to bring the vehicles home after an extended incident (be it fire, flood, whatever) was mooted over 12 months ago. This was to give the crew enough rest & reduce risk. I have not seen it happening since it was discussed (like a lot of ideas).
But then again most strike teams for extended incidents get a rest break anyway don't they, with a crew change on the truck (eg KI fires)?? Or are you referring to like Mt Bold fires where I think crews bought their local truck ?
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i wasnt allowed to drive home from mount crawford or Warooka last year so its well enforced in region 4 anyway...and when i was talkin about getting pulled up as a strike team i was talking on the way to the incident. so if u don feel fit to drive u should excuse urself n do somethin else.
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Have it your way,the Transport Inspector who informed our brigade must be telling porkies then :-P
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bravo chook.....excellent piece of information, thanks for that.
I would assume this is why no-one has heard of it from CFS HQ....they have the same advice. Its certainly the advice MFS got...
Alway good to end the year with a little scare mongering half truths....must be time for a interstate strike team....bring on the deployment cricket matches
Ease up Misterteddy, as you should be well aware deployment cricket matches have been banned until further notice under section 8, part (3) of Worksafe SA regs.
(3) No person shall knowingly enter into any inherantly unsafe non firefighting activities wereby the potential for speeding projectials to srike members, in the said members unprotected region (goolies) thereby causing other histerically laughing participants to fall to the ground in an uncontrolled manner, causing possible injury.
(4) refers to driving whilst tired or suffering from any related afflictions, it categorically recommends the square cut or leg glance and NOT the straight drive.
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Interesting... I think the exemptions may need to read in conjunction with
http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/freight/driver%20fatigue/fact%20sheets/HVDF_Check_List_1_.pdf
The way I read it, CFS must keep records of all drivers' heavy vehicle operations, whether in the course of CFS activities or not, AND we may well have to get someone brought in to drive us home if 12 hours work is exceeded in any given day. That's for local jobs as well as strike teams.
cheers
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Misterteddy thanks - as for half truths the road transport industry has been spreading those for the last 12 months, even though they helped draft the national model(Tolls, Scott's & any of the other big logistics companies).
Andrew quite correct - its a risk management thing, know what your drivers have been up to & manage accordingly. Remember this legislation was developed for the transport industry which traditionally does not fill its vehicles with spare drivers.
SA Firey - my experience with using the inspectors from government departments including Transport SA for knowledge has been bad to say the least - they are only interested in a "collar", in fact Safework SA inspectors hate giving advise for that very reason "if it all goes wrong & you are prosecuted you can say you were acting on advise from us" quote by one of the principle inspectors Safework SA when challenged on why they don't assist. We got a local scaly in to give our forklift drivers advise on chain of compliance, his advice caused more halm than good & was incorrect. As for what happens if there is an accident, true it will be investigated but if the risk management stratagies are followed i.e. proper rest break prior to driving, rotating drivers etc then all will be fine. The original thread was carrying work diaries - it is not required.
So on that note have a good one - take it easy, see you later
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Chook you are so right on two accounts being the don't take what they say as Gospel as they are only human and do make mistakes like the rest of us. SA Fiery the info that your Brigade was supplied can be seen as good to know but why not wait and see how things develop across the entire service(s)no need to rush in for a solution when it effects more than one Brigade or unit or what ever. Now second one of chooks points being being don't do anything till it becomes a fully resourced directive from above. All to often I have seen in the public service 1/2 baked solutions to problems where a central body should of stepped in and did the job properly the first time and have a uniform solution to a problem as is the case with fatigue management for drivers.
Mac13 Region 4 have always been very mindful of how they treat volunteers and with all the strike teams that I've gone on in there presence they made sure we came home safe. I don't know about other regions but well done R4
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the whole issue of fatigue management is one that is bigger than just drivers. Its about how we plan to use Strike Teams on the fireground, and how we plan to use and change over people AND still allow them to do the things that they need to do in their other lives (you know the ones that get in the way of us responding).
Work the guys on your appliance from 1800 till 0600 next day on a Strike team to Blahsville and how many of them are really fit to go to work next day? How many do? Similarly....work all night (or even just be at work all night if u are lucky to have a 14hr paid sleep somewhere cosy) and then get a job first thing in the morning. Are you fit to respond. Of course the text book answer is that we would all put our hands on our heart and say "oh but its his responsibility to manage his fatigue....and he shouldnt respond", but we all know theres a hundred reasons why he/she will - and they are all real and valid, not textbook ones.
For my part....we make our Fireground shifts too long. Instead of 10-12 hrs which has become the expected norm....we should be aiming at 6-8 tops - get in....work hard, go home. No need to feed them with extensive logistic requirements....no gathering of the clan at staging points so that it looks like a family gathering of the McDonalds, and spending your time chatting to all those long lost people u met 35 Strike teams ago. Sometimes Staging looks like a B&S venue.....which but for a minor abbreviated diminutive of the word and, is closer to the truth than we may care to acknowledge.
Theres a downside of course....means we need an extra shift of people.....but, thats what planning is for. I would have thought that we could just about pre-plan a response to most Group areas for 2,3,4,or 10 Strike Teams in 3 shifts....so that when the big one happens....u know ur Brigade is likely to have to find people for XXX shifts. Guys (or even girls, who probably do it better anyway) can plan, let bosses or partners know whats happeneing and make arrangements. More importantly....being out for 6-8 hrs is much less likely to impact heavily on the work-response balance. Perfect in every situation?....absolutley not....better in some?, yep, so its an improvement
So fatigue management is much more an issue than just your driver getting you home safely (which i must remember the next time everyone else in the truck is snoring on our way home from an overnight adventure). As an aside, SAAS is going through the same issues, with a lot of discussion and problem solving to address the issue for those Vol crews that get responded a lot throughout the night, and usually head down to town as a result. If they dont get it right....people wont go on the roster because it affects there abiolity to work the next day.......CFS will have the same issue if we dont sort it properly.
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I will wait and see what comes out of H/Q, i know it MIGHT becoming but they where waiting legal advice..If it does come out will CFS supply us all with log books? or will it be one log book per truck?? Fatigue management is nothing new some 4 may 5 years ago we went to salt creek(R3) did our 8 hour shift and where not allowed to drive home had to sleep on the ground over night wait till day crew arrived then went home...
If they do bring this in what about the regional staff who work there day shift but are then on call over night and have to drive out to a fire or accident in there work car.Yes i know the rule is only for trucks but Fatigue management should cover all area's of our life if they want to get it right... One thing CFS will have to do is train up more truck driver's so that when the trucks have to be picked up that someone is able to drive it back....
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Well written Mr Teddy....it was not that long ago the lady was killed in a car vs tree accident at Birdwood (I think) on her way home from a night-shift.
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Intresting i have one question. If we are going to make our arrangements for shift times more accountable to be X hours long. does X start and end when your truck leaves your station or when you enter and leave the fire ground?
I ask this because many strike teams epically in R1 travel easily an hour or 2 to get to the fire and hence an hour to get home. So a 12 hour shift on the fire ground becomes a 14 hour shift etc..
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if u go to a 8 hour shift on fire ground all of sudden u have to find 3 shifts of firefighters rather tyhan two...lets face it there not out ther to be found
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if u go to a 8 hour shift on fire ground all of sudden u have to find 3 shifts of firefighters rather tyhan two...lets face it there not out ther to be found
Aren't they? Many of the issues that we face with strike teams tend to stem from the fact that shifts and overall deployments are too long. Smaller bite sized chunks of time may well be part of the answer, especially with regard to strike teams into nieghbouring groups. Mind you, if they worked on effectively managanging the resources that are assigned to any given large scale incident better, I'm sure that many things would fall into place, inculding the feelings of angst that have developed towards strike teams and task forces.
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Three Shifts!!! Three Shiftsss!!! Numbers...the IMT arent GOD!!! :evil:
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Three Shifts!!! Three Shiftsss!!! Numbers...the IMT arent GOD!!! :evil:
I don't quite understand? Are you suggesting that they will be unable to source people for three shifts? By creating an extra shift, you then open up possibilities for people to take half a day off work to attend, or people who have commitments in the latter half of the day to attend. As it stands, you take off a whole day, or a whole night, which then can write off your following day. I'm not suggesting that three shifts is the way forward, nor would it work in practice, but it certainly is food for thought.
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if u go to a 8 hour shift on fire ground all of sudden u have to find 3 shifts of firefighters rather tyhan two...lets face it there not out ther to be found
or rather lets have 2 work hard 8 hr shifts....and one shift of "lets not let it get into that big forrest thing without us knowing" ....minimal more numbers, and no more 2am stupidity when we're not really achieving much at all
I'm with numbers....guys (and maybe even girls) will commit to strike teams if they are shorter and they know (as much as is reasonable) for certain they will be back to go to work (or pick up the kids or anything else that they might HAVE to do later)
As for IMT managing it?....don't....very simple.....tell the Group you want a strike team in this location at whatever time...and let them do it - our IMTs are reknown for micro managing.....just let someone else get on and do it
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so when ur going away on a strike team is ur "Base" still ur station. or does it become the staging area? hence the 100km rule comes in? think its something CFS need to look deeply in to other wise the Sh*t may hit the fan big time
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Many studies have been conducted in to fatigue & its management. The British army did some really ground breaking stuff early on that found after 72 hrs you are stuffed.
Except for mining, industry worked out long ago that 8 is far better than 12 hour shifts. We conducted an informal study that concluded that productivity, quality were less & mistakes & accidents increased in the last 4 hours of a twelve hour shift. Plus you have to throw an extra break in as well, they just aren't worth the effort.
How many times have you deployed & spent several hours just sitting around?
When I first joined SES I was surprised how poorly fatigue is managed, even travelling to courses etc. Land search teams, storm teams etc were kept hanging around far longer than they should have been. Newcastle saw a real changed to that 8 hour shifts, very little hurray up & wait. And every task I help manage after that was the same - don't need em now - send them home!
As far as travel my company has a rule that if you have to driver for more than 3.5 hrs consider (and its only consider) stopping over night on the way or better choose another method of travel. We did manage to get an exemption for people going from Berri to Leeton (arguing that we were country drivers & used to the distances involved). However for other travel we fly!
Mac13 the 100 km thing will be the least of your problems!
Finally 8 hour shifts are easy to manage, just takes a bit more forethought.
And fatigue management training is vital for those who manage people & those under them. I have got some excellent info on how to manage fatigue, there is heaps of info out there.
cheers
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Three Shifts!!! Three Shiftsss!!! Numbers...the IMT arent GOD!!! :evil:
I don't quite understand? Are you suggesting that they will be unable to source people for three shifts? By creating an extra shift, you then open up possibilities for people to take half a day off work to attend, or people who have commitments in the latter half of the day to attend. As it stands, you take off a whole day, or a whole night, which then can write off your following day. I'm not suggesting that three shifts is the way forward, nor would it work in practice, but it certainly is food for thought.
no, i just commonly get told, there isnt the IMT capacity to plan (especially in logistics/catering) to have a third shift in 24 hours.
Way i see it. the Inital responding "Very hard working" appliances and strike teams, need to be home within 6 hours. The next shift which more than likely will work into the night, may need to stick around for up to 12 hours, so IMT can establish a plan, of weather or not its a campaign fire or not. Between the hours of 9pm and 9am...Minimal Resources on the fire ground UNLESS weather conditions are not in your favour OR the following day is gonna be a filtered. When i say minimal resources, You could create two sub-shifts over night, make it a 1am Change over. 9pm-1am SHIFT 2A sleeps 1am-5AM SHIFT 2B Sleeps. (this is just my mind ticking over with ideas..no where else to throw them.)
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no, i just commonly get told, there isnt the IMT capacity to plan (especially in logistics/catering) to have a third shift in 24 hours.
Yup KI last year was an example with Warooka going at the same time IMT was stretched so thin hence the help from QLD
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More people simply need to get trained in IMT related stuff. And staging area managers do need to be switched on...and not forget/make assumptions about a group of 10 appliances sitting all by themselves :P (that was us on KI...we were the Emergency strike team apparently...umm? no..we've just arrived awaiting deployment...8 Hours later the Test Cricket Match ended).
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i think ur sooo right let more people do more IMT training things may run smoother...but i think some people may get a bit thingy bout new people in IMT. i dunno but its something im pretty keen to get involved in
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i think ur sooo right let more people do more IMT training things may run smoother...but i think some people may get a bit thingy bout new people in IMT. i dunno but its something im pretty keen to get involved in
mmm its a requirement to be over 45 to be in IMT in some groups...
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There are lots of members who are trained in IMT but never get a chance to do some of the IMT stuff..Now some years ago CFA also went through all of this but they got away with it I cant remember how but they did and there was no need for log books as VICROADS where happy with the appliance log book as long as each driver wrote in it and so on....
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When I first read the topic it was focused on the driving aspect for drivers but after seeing the debate change a bit I can now see it can cover more than just the driving. The way that the services do business need to really take into consideration the aspect of fatigue.
I think driving from point a to point b and back again need to look at. Some of the technology that is available to us is not being used. I know some meetings do require a face to face but try a teleconference once in a while. I remember doing one night after work a 400 km round trip of driving for a meeting on top of the normal 150 km that I do for work that day. I think by the end of the meeting I just wanted to get out the room and go to bed (I think I provided nonething to the meeting in the last 3/4 hr) instead I spend a couple of hours by the side of road sleeping before making it home to get ready for work in the next 3 - 4 hours. Unfortunately for both trainings and meetings this is the norm rather than the exception.
The other matter being IMT training or having more people to pull in I don't have a problem with but they need to work out ways of using these people. If I remember correctly they were little scrounging for IMT trained people for KI or anyone who had completed an AIIMS course could be on it. They should do more training and more practice with those trained or on the verge of being trained to be in such a role like what I think occurs in Region 2 on a regular basis
Then again this is my opinion of someone way out there in thinking and living
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For Information,
CFS is not exempt from any part of the new regs, including the use of log books.
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For Information,
CFS is not exempt from any part of the new regs, including the use of log books.
Not even with the exemptions explicitly specified within the Regulations?
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I like the posts about 8 hour shifts. But would like to know does the 8 hours start when you leave your station or arrive at staging or leave staging?
and Yes shorter shifts will get more people available if i know that i am going away from 1600-1200 i can sleep when i get home then g to work/uni etc. but if i don;t know it might be a 12 hour mabey who knows. Then i can't really go.
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"I have a dream...... 8 hour shifts, for all firefighters on the fireground" from a IMT point of view this request is a mongrel to manage.
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Why Jaff? except for the lack of IMT personnel, 8 hr shifts shouldnt be that hard. Maybe Safecom should start recruiting some logistics specialist.
Gilly the only way CFS is not exempt is its not an emergency service or the transitional arrangements have been withdrawn 4 years early.
By the way they are Work diaries & are issued to the individuals, just like logbooks were (I'm talking about the official logbook that all long distance drivers carried - including myself). So Gilly not sure of your info, but ESO's are exempt - period.
There is one way to find out for sure - Safecom should run a test case in the Supreme court, then the decision would be set in case law no further argument!
Where ESO's can be prosecuted for fatigue management problems is under the OHS Act, years ago ESO's should have fought for exemptions from section 19,20,21 of that act.
It could be argued that every emergency response, is a breach of that act (in simple terms "a safe place"). So regardless of which act applies, fatigue still must be managed - even if that means having extra people in IMT's to manage it :wink:
And tomorrow is D Day :-D
cheers
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Chook you live in a beautiful world, sadly reality is much harder to manage. :-)
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No mate my beautiful world would have no rules at all & I would be redundant :-D
Yeah I know how hard it is to get some to change & I have seen how precious some involved in IMT's are.
But it's just good business practice to manage your most important asset as best as possible! (for those that don't what that is it's your people!)
Management of volunteer ESO's scratch their collective heads wondering why they can't attract & retain members - yet this is one of the reasons.
Having peoples guts flogged out over an extended period, or just as bad having people sitting on their arses in a staging area just because nobody has matched tasks to resources required is just plain stupid!
Thats why the holistic approach to all incident management must be adopted, just because it's one agencies legislative role & just because they may not have enough managers, planners etc does not mean the troups on the front line should suffer. Afterall there are people in other regions, services that could handle the task of planning, logistics etc. This does not just apply to CFS either or just in SA.
Its about time that the umbrella organisations that are supposed to manage the ESO's fix this problem once and for all! And since fatigue management legislation was flagged in 2007 - by now those same organisations should have released a policy and guidance materials & this thread would never have been started because everyone would already know the answers :wink:
Anyway I guess thats enough from chairman chook :-D
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Chook,
I was referring to your reference that eso's have a blanket exemption. this is not the case. We have exemptions as laid out in the regs, but are still required to comply with elements of the regs, particularly in return journeys. this is where cfs will be mainly affected, having to have drivers shuttled and the requirement for log books used in return journeys. Who provides them, who maintains them, where are they obtained, etc etc.
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Chook,
I was referring to your reference that eso's have a blanket exemption. this is not the case. We have exemptions as laid out in the regs, but are still required to comply with elements of the regs, particularly in return journeys. this is where cfs will be mainly affected, having to have drivers shuttled and the requirement for log books used in return journeys. Who provides them, who maintains them, where are they obtained, etc etc.
National Driver Work Diary is available from all Services SA offices and local Police Stations, each driver maintains their own, and cost is $18 each.
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Yep fair call Gilly - still would not go down that path unless directed in writting refer to cock on block in previous post - being directed by a higher authority opens a Pandora's box so let them carry the can!
I remember a wise comment when I was in the army - if pulled up by the state gendarmes don't ever produce your civilian licence, otherwise you are gone!
If working for the state why suffer for their poor management.
cheers
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So you drive 100+km to the fireground, drive around all day on the fireground. You have done to many hours so they pick you up to bring you back to the fire station. Yep easy done and i like it, sensible.
BUT how does this affect you getting back to your house, will they let you drive your personal car home or will they arrange transport or will they not care cause your driving a car. :?
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So you drive 100+km to the fireground, drive around all day on the fireground. You have done to many hours so they pick you up to bring you back to the fire station. Yep easy done and i like it, sensible.
BUT how does this affect you getting back to your house, will they let you drive your personal car home or will they arrange transport or will they not care cause your driving a car. :?
That's the thing its not over 12 tonne so they would'nt care less.
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Aha, how about 14's ;)
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Aha, how about 14's ;)
Personally, who cares what lethal weapon you are driving or dangerous equipment you are operating. You fall asleep you will be injured & others could die.
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So you drive 100+km to the fireground, drive around all day on the fireground. You have done to many hours so they pick you up to bring you back to the fire station. Yep easy done and i like it, sensible.
BUT how does this affect you getting back to your house, will they let you drive your personal car home or will they arrange transport or will they not care cause your driving a car. :?
Many years ago, I have been delivered home after a long night on storm damage.
This was with a Unit that sent the active crew home when the vehicle arrived back at LHQ & a few fresh people checked/stowed (incl people on auxiliary or ops/comms membership) the vehicle equipment so it was ready to go on the next job if called.
A driver from the auxiliary crew used a 4wd vehicle or private vehicle (mileage was paid by Unit) did a round trip dropping everyone home. Private vehicles were kept at LHQ under lock & key until the next day for collection.
Otherwise beds in LHQ or stretchers in the shed were laid out so you slept before leaving.
Mr K Lane was a person ahead of his time. He was my Unit Controller at that time.
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It would be a very interesting situation for cfs if they followed the regs by brining you back to station from the fireground, then let you drive your private car home. If you had an accident and injured / killed yourself or others it would open a huge can of worms.
**cough, cough, did someone say lawsuit.
Now, there would need to be some responsibility on an individual in this situation if they were feeling fatigued to arrange transport home but i believe the onus is on cfs to get there firefighters home if they are believed to be fatigued.
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Yes Mr Lane certainly was!
That is the whole point of fatigue management, not work diaries etc but proper management of fatigue.
We have procedures that a)prevent excessive hours to begin with, b) if for some unplanned reason excessive hours are going to be worked (usually breakdowns) then those involved do not drive home they are taken home by taxi or company car & picked up the next day.
We also have Fitness for work procedures which cover things like partying all night & coming to work next day (don't bother), having a second job (if you do you may put your primary job at risk if there is a fatigue risk). This particular procedure impacts on our employee's who are members of ESO's as we don't want people at work who have spent all night/ week at an incident (leave is given - comes off employee's AL entitlement).
So as you can see the management of fatigue is a big issue not just on the fire ground, and it can be managed it just takes a bit of planning & organisation.
Finally everyone is responsible for their safety, so if you are tired - don't drive! And insist on proper fatigue management provisions, I know its hard sometimes (been guilty myself :oops: ) but I know that the most important person is me & at the end of the day I'm the best one to look after myself :wink:
Take care keep safe
cheers
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This is the comment and advice from the CFSVA on this topic in the May 09 Newsletter.....interesting approach. Can't say as I ever recall them advising us to NOT respond to incidents....bring on the new world order
http://www.cfsva.org.au/Portals/0/2009%20May%20-%20CFSVA%20Bulletin%20Colour.pdf (http://www.cfsva.org.au/Portals/0/2009%20May%20-%20CFSVA%20Bulletin%20Colour.pdf)
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I heard that a review & standard for fatigue management was being done. Maybe introduced in the basic workplace laws.
I understood the new law would apply to ALL workplaces and a call for public comment / submissions had been made.
But, I cannot find any information in a google search.
If a review with submissions requested is true, then good on SACFSVA.
Now, what is the UFU and Ambo Union take on this ??
As usual, the SASESVA is silent.... :x
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Its already covered under SA legislation section 19 of the OHS&W Act "safe systems of work" covers fatigue management.
Quite simply if there is an accident and it is proved that there was excessive hours or insufficient rest breaks/ rest periods - then a guilty finding.
The diaries actually help provide evidence of compliance, so getting an exemption would in fact be counter productive IMHO.
Also be aware that current legislation in SA has a presumption of innocence, proposed National legislation (Model OHS) may have the opposite slant i.e you are guilty now prove otherwise (as in NSW & QLD).And those most at risk are the ones who only drive heavy vehicle on a rare occasion(Only drive when we go on a call out).
So whining about it is just a waste of time - for those who have had the dubious pleasure of attending a heavy vehicle accident know what fatigue can do, or are emergency service drivers "super human"? :wink:
cheers
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So is it fair that Volunteers go and buy these books?? why cant we just use the appliance log book and change drivers every 3 hours?? So how would it work if we where to say go into Victoria drive CFA appliances and the same driver drives all the time as was the case in a the Victorian fires of 2009 as CFS only pick one person to drive..We can only hope that we will be exempt as is the case in other state's...
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Personally I don't think its fair to pay for the books yourself - however they are issued to the individual not the company (in this case CFS) & industry drivers pay for theirs! (and their licences, medicals etc).
And no crossing state borders wouldn't make any difference - in fact if you cross under a SAFETYCAM in a heavy vehicle you are logged automatically anyway & that network is rapidly expanding in the eastern states anyway.
So to go back to your statement of one driver allocated - then CFS must change its management plans (two up is acceptable under the legislation). Quite simply two drivers allocated 1 drives while the other rests (not in the truck if not fitted with a sleeper cab). Therefore if you drive (or do other work) from Adelaide to eastern Victoria ( nine hours?) then both drivers would need to rest prior to going to the fire ground & conversly when returning to SA. Its not that hard to manage really, when I travel from Leeton to Berri, I must leave here first thing in the morning & either drive straight thru to Berri(with a break every two hrs) report in then go straight to the accommodation or over night at Mildura (we are only permitted to work/driver a total of 8 hrs with a recommended driving time of 3.5hrs in rural areas! Times are a changin :wink:
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As I understand it from contacts interstate, no exemptions have been granted
interstate services. Other than under red/blues. Same as us.
Implementation delays only, to allow communication from HQ to brigades & units.
Could be wrong, but that's what I understand to be the case.
Tried to get a new log book the other week.
They will only issue me one if I hand in my old one to have the remaining pages
cancelled. This will be a marathon session at the counter, because I have only
used 2 lines out of 100-odd pages in the old one. It occurs to me that CFS &
SES drivers could possibly 'break' TSA by handing in our unused logs at about
the same time. :evil:
cheers
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I was wondering if any other Brigades had been told / found out for themselves the affect that the this new regulation will have on drivers. It only effects trucks with a GVM of 12t and over, which would include most if not all 34/34p, pumpers.
Examples that came to mind are: (1)If I work a normal day shift (7 - 3.30)then later that afternoon I get paged at 5pm to respond with a strike team to a large grass,scrub fire that is 20km from our station. We spend 12 hrs on the fire ground before being stood down, under the new regs, I can not now drive home nor can any other driver who is in our crew. A vehicle from the station is then required to deliver another driver to the fireground to bring the truck/crew home.
(2) I am now a truck driver for my day job, I complete a normall shift of 9 hrs. Get a page that evening and put in 3.5 hrs at a fire. Under the regs I can drive to the fire as i can use the exemption seeing as it is a classified emergency, however, i can not drive home or return to my day job as a driver for another 12 hours.
I suppose I more curious as to why CFS has not raised this issue with the brigades, I only came across it by chance reading the Saturdays Advertiser, then last night at brigade, I spoke to one of our members who is a member of SAPOL and discussed it with him.
I believe the brigades also now are required to keep a drivers log, and all drivers are responsible for obtaining and holding a drivers diary. (filled out only if driving further than 100km radius of station) - strike team deployments
Further information at transport.sa.gov.au then follow link to "Heavy vehicle driver fatigue"
As with most laws/regs, i'm sure a sub-clause in tiny tiny writing makes Emergency Service personell, in the act of an Emergency Incident, exempt from such regulations.
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So is it fair that Volunteers go and buy these books?? why cant we just use the appliance log book and change drivers every 3 hours?? So how would it work if we where to say go into Victoria drive CFA appliances and the same driver drives all the time as was the case in a the Victorian fires of 2009 as CFS only pick one person to drive..We can only hope that we will be exempt as is the case in other state's...
Why shouldn't the volunteer have to pay for the logbook, your license does not restrict you to only driving CFS trucks so why should they pay?
As far as I can work out and from brief discussions with the Traffic Inspectors (rather than SAPOL as this is not their area of specialty), it is as mentioned above, the only exemption from the whole system is for the travel TO an emergency incident and not to get home again.
I'm guessing we will be seeing a bit more of situations such as we experienced at Bookmark this season where upon coming off the fireground, we waited for a coach to bring all crews and drivers home (the coach brought fresh drivers up with it to take the appliances home). While I support what is trying to be achieved here, it does extend the day somewhat by the time the coach drops off at several locations etc - there is only one plus point and that is the consumption of BEER on the coach.
Perhaps in this situation, the crews should be coached up as well and utilise 'local' appliances - might work in some situations.....
Also interesing your quote about the Vic fires and only 'one' driver - I can see this being the case if you only had a single qualified driver on the crew, we had three on our crew (two CFS and the MFS chap) and drove for one-day each to share the load. However, in this case the daily trips would of been within 100km of the base so not really relevant to the legislation.
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Funny that you metion about getting your old log book pages cancelled,I work for DTEI or TSA or whatever they are called today and we had ten blokes at the Murray Bridge office and it went into meltdown, about 2 hours later we were done. :-D