SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: filtered on June 06, 2007, 10:24:10 PM
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Saw this pager message on the decoder yesterday...
15:11:57 05-06-07 SHQ: R1 INFO: INFO SESSIONS RE THE AMALGAMATION OF THE CFS SOCC WITH MFS COMCEN WILL BE AT R1 HQ 14.06.07 & MAWSON BASE 21.06.07 BOTH 19:30HRS. BRIGADES ENCOURAGED TO SEND A REP. RSVP TO YOUR GRP OFFICER. < 05/06/2007 15:11:46
Does anyone know what's going on with this? Will it effect CFS brigades at all?
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This is nothing new.....it has been coming for some time...I reckon it was supposed to have already happened, but for a variety of reason, it hasn't yet....
As I understand it, the MFS comcen is going to be the location for the SAFECOM Comcen...
And presumably you aren't in Region 1, otherwise you would have got this message on your pager.... I am just guessing that the roadshow will do other Regions after these meetings... ?
Pip
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I think that merging the SACFS & SAMFS communication centres together wouldnt harm cause after all MFS does send out CFS response messages for private alarms and MVA's
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At least it will stop SOCC having to ring MFS to respond some CFS brigades :wink: :lol:
Definatly a change for the better, just a shame there were'nt jobs for all SOCC staff at MFS :-(
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Apparently it will change on the 1st of july. of course this will be confirmed at the meeting :roll:
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Yes this has been on the cards for a long time but cfs have finally realised that they better tell a few brigades about this before trucks start calling SOC aqnd nobody answers...
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just a shame there were'nt jobs for all SOCC staff at MFS :-(
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There are jobs for the permanent SOC staff who have gone through the government process to get their jobs, it was only casuals who are not going over.
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I did hear it was going to happen,one would hope that once SOCC staff at at mfs hq the correct service will be sent to call outs..Long way to go from bordertown to a tree down at Penola for the SES.
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Bill, if thats the way SES set it up, then how is that wrong, they want to be primary response for jobs like that, MFS aren't doing the wrong thing, every SES has an area, and if thats Bordertown SES patch, then tough, SES need to say to MFS comms, for this job type in this area, don't suggest an SES resource, simple as that.
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this is the second time in six weeks and when SES called MFS they said DO WE REALLY HAVE TO GO??? and on both times sometime after the SES page CFS penola where paged.....
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Maybe someone needs to make it official. So that it can be fixed up in the data base to prevent these jobs from happenning. (ie the Penola ones)
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Exactly uniden, we are good at carrying on till we are blue in the face, but unless they go through their HQ, nothing will change, MFS can only do as they are told, same as CFS SOCC, in fact some of the things the CFS SOCC is told to do is mind blowing, clearly most vols don't ever read their SOPS/COSO's, the sooner CAD gets here the better, bring it on.
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Maybe someone needs to make it official. So that it can be fixed up in the data base to prevent these jobs from happenning. (ie the Penola ones)
Good luck trying to get that to happen. We've been trying to get some changes done for ages and if they do get done it will be when they are ready to do it! (read never)
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i hear that soc is going to be moving into wakefeild st and MFS is going to be running it.
whats everyone thoughts on it.
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Well, that is sort of correct.. - There is another thread about this already but anyway..
SOCC is moving into wakefield street, along with some of the Perm. SOCC staff.. - It is explained already in the other thread so probably easier to keep it going there..
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Yes this has been on the cards for a long time but cfs have finally realised that they better tell a few brigades about this before trucks start calling SOC aqnd nobody answers...
I assume we'll still be able to get someone on our regional talkgroup?!
For those of us who are unlikely to hear anything officially until Christmas (either this, or the next one), any of you who have been to a briefing etc who could provide info on what it means to we ff's would be appreciated.
ie from our perspective, will the service & operations at the other end of the radio continue to operate as it has to date, or will there be some changes in protocol, access, ??.
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First briefing is on Thursday, will let you know what interesting info they have for us....
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They're gonna make everyone learn K-Codes :lol: :-P
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Well i havn't been chosen by my brigade to go to the briefing so can someone who is find out if we are adopting some form of resource tracking similar to mets. because Currently if SHQ responds a brigade then MFS takes a call and responds that brigade again then one brigade can be required at 2 jobs which probarly won't work to well.
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there are some very "interesting" changes proposed. Every brigade and group is strongly encouraged to send at least one representative and bring along all your questions.
the deal so far is:
- all SOC functions will move to MFS Comcen at Wakefield St,
- 5 of the current SOC OCOs have been employed as fulltime MFS comms officers,
- minimum of 4 operators on duty at one time (which is effectively what there is now, 2 x MFS and 2 x CFS)
- Gary Bau (CFS Comms Coordinator) to be based at MFS Comcen
- the regional operations talkgroups will remain (for now!)
- callsign will be "Adelaide Fire" instead of "State HQ"
- pages will come out as from "MFS:" instead of "SHQ:"
there has been no consultation with volunteers (not even with regional management committees or COAC) in this, so what actually happens remains to be seen.
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I know that the majority callout's (98%)for my brigade come from MFS comm's and we don't seem to have too much trouble other than the odd human error with street names etc. Having one set of comms might help to streamline some processes such as rolling an appliance on a total fireban day where you are having to contact SOC,MFS and region as you roll out the door.
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there are some very "interesting" changes proposed. Every brigade and group is strongly encouraged to send at least one representative and bring along all your questions.
the deal so far is:
- all SOC functions will move to MFS Comcen at Wakefield St,
- 5 of the current SOC OCOs have been employed as fulltime MFS comms officers,
- minimum of 4 operators on duty at one time (which is effectively what there is now, 2 x MFS and 2 x CFS)
- Gary Bau (CFS Comms Coordinator) to be based at MFS Comcen
- the regional operations talkgroups will remain (for now!)
- callsign will be "Adelaide Fire" instead of "State HQ"
- pages will come out as from "MFS:" instead of "SHQ:"
there has been no consultation with volunteers (not even with regional management committees or COAC) in this, so what actually happens remains to be seen.
Interesting numbers of operators on a shift when you add the odd SES call to be processed as well.
At the moment, if the SES call rate reaches a certain level the volunteers take over. Will the CFS HQ Brigade do the same thing or support the Incident Control room at Wakefield St (eg mann the CFS info line) ?
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There isnt really a CFS HQ brigade... There are Regional Com-Cens which open on days of Extreme F/danger or when requested on high incident days etc..
Usually the third or occasionally 4th OCO's were all paid staff on recall.
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There is a CFS HQ brigade of sorts... have a look at
http://pager/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=SACFS&Station_Code=HQOS
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There isnt really a CFS HQ brigade...
yes there is.
Might pay to not have too much speculation yet, all shall be revealed (hopefully) at the transition meetings planned. Darius has the basic idea though..
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Well it was just a quick summary of the major points (eg. I didn't bother mentioning things like that CFS staff will no longer be able to divert their phones to SOC and use it as an answering service). But find out all the gory details (that have been thought of), and ask all the tough questions, tomorrow night.
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Might pay to not have too much speculation yet, all shall be revealed (hopefully) at the transition meetings planned.
Your still running the "all will be revealed line". Are you trying to buy CFSHQ some time to allow them to work out what they are going to do?
Trying to make it sound like its been all thought out and well planned? We all know how well CFS organise and plan ahead...
Moving operations to MFS has been planned for a long time at ministerial level, but after that the CFS has been making it up as they go.
I remember not too long ago you were saying that all will be revealed and the SOCC isn't going to MFS, also that MFS couldn't do all the things that the SOCC does so it will never happen. So I ask you, were you just playing dumb or are you, as I suspect, in the dark yourself and just trying to sound in the know by stating all will be revealed.
You know as little as, or less, than everyone else.
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Are the new MFS Comms peep's (ex. CFS SOCC staff) already in MFS comms? .. Heard some new voices today on the radio...
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lol HF14 - i think u read into everything too much... i was merely making that statement that Darius had the basic idea of it in his post, and that if people actualyl want to know exactly what the current story is, then attend the meetings.
dont be such a tool mate.
rescuehazmat - noone has transfered yet, the transition is meant to take place on 1st July.
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First post is a long one....
The following is taken from the Info sheet we were given last night:
1. Why does this move need to occur?
The SACFS will be transitioning to a computer aided dispatch system in 2008/2009 call SACAD. The SACAD terminals will be located in 3 purpose built CRD centres in Adelaide (SAPOL, SAAS and SAFECOM - CFS, SES and SES).
The SAFECOM CRD is located at the MFS COMCEN (call sign 'Adelaide Fire').
Should any communications path or equipment fail there are either redundant communications paths or contingency plans that will keep the SAFECOM CRD centre functioning so the community will always have a response to their request for help.
2. What will change from the way the community rings CFS brigades?
There will be very little noticeable change from the way emergency calls are handled at the moment. The public will continue to ring 000 or their local brigade number and the call is answered by the ALERTS system with one member of the ALERTS being MFS COMCEN (Adelaide Fire).
3. Will brigade alarm numbers change?
No - Not in the transfer of CRD to MFS COMCEN, but 000 will be promoted to the community as the only means of alerting brigades prior to the full transition to SACAD in 2008/2009.
4. How will brigades contact the MFS COMCEN by radio?
As you do now, via your Regional Operations talkgroup with the callsign 'Adelaide Fire'
5. There will be a direct number to contact MFS COMCEN (will leave this to be communicated back via your reps)
6. Who answers the ALERTS calls in Adelaide?
These will be answered by MFS COMCEN operators, and with a further 5 CFS OCO's transfering to the MFS COMCEN there will be significant "CFS expertise" in the CRD for CFS incidents.
7. How many operators will be able to take emergency calls?
There will be a minimum of 4 operators with a further 2 operators available at a moments notice and the CFS Communications Co-ordinator will also be located at the MFS COMCEN.
8. Who will send out the brigade response pager message?
The MFS COMCEN operators in the same way the SOCC does now, the prefix of the pager message will change from SHQ: to MFS:
9. Who will brigades contact to acknowledge their response pager messages?
The MFS COMCEN operators will usually obtain response page acknowledgement during the ALERTS conference. If the vrigade has been direct paged (no ALERTS conference) the brigades will ring the MFS COMCEN direct on [see Q5] or radio into MFS COMCEN using the Regional Operations Talkgroup with the callsign 'Adelaide Fire'. COMCEN operators may also ring the brigades ALERTS number.
10. What if an Incident Controller needs to respond additional resources?
The Incident Controller will contact the MFS COMCEN by radio ('Adelaide Fire') or telephone [see Q5] and request additional resources including CFS and non CFS resources.
11. What about CFS resource tracking (Region 1)?
- Responding Brigades will report to 'Adelaide Fire' on TG 124
- They will then proceed to their command and control TG as per the R1 Regional Operations Management Plan and inform 'Adelaide Fire of the TG
- Additional resources responding to the incident will report to 'Adelaide Fire' on TG 124
- 'Adelaide Fire' will inform them of the command and control TG the incident is working on
- Currently, there is no operational requirement for arrival notifications, sit reps, and return to station messages to be transmitted to 'Adelaide Fire', After hours sit reps can still be transmitted to 'Adelaide Fire' dependingon operational activity
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Well that resource tracking bit will make going to bushfires on the RIGHT talk group easier.
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There was much objection to US nominating a TG and going straight to it.
What it means is - A appliance responding to an incident can sit on a TG without anyone to talk to.
Under the current system appliances will remain on TG 124 until a station/base/person comes online to take the communications from SOCC. The TG allocated is that of the group/person taking command.
this system works well, and ensures that crew always have someone to talk to if needed. Why would you want to go back to a point where you potentially have no-one to talk to?????
There are a lot of other issues that came up, but i will let others comment first.
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Mike, can you just clarify that point about resource tracking...
Does that mean that when responding to an incident, the first responding appliance will nominate a talkgroup to go to, then all appliances will go there.
Until a local station opens up, no sitreps, arrival messages or other messages will be transmitted - unless its after hours and Adelaide fire aren't busy?
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Generally shouldnt the first arriving person to the station open up the radio room and take comm's till say a admin officer,etc arrives...therefore there will always be someone to talk to on your Groups talk group.......and then in a upgraded response: Group base opened up by the groups IMT....
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Generally shouldnt the first arriving person to the station open up the radio room and take comm's till say a admin officer,etc arrives...therefore there will always be someone to talk to on your Groups talk group.......and then in a upgraded response: Group base opened up by the groups IMT....
Many brigades have enough trouble crewing the appliances let alone the station as well! In my group we frequently run entire incidents through SHQ because no station opens up...
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A couple of phrases were uttered quite a bit:
"Im not sure about that" and "what do Adelaide Fire think will happen"
CFS_Firey:
What you interpret from that form is what they initially said, after much discussion and objections it was stated we would continue with what was already happening with SOCC
My GO has told me the SLA was signed off in EARLY MAY.
Without any consultation with firefighters they have come up with a system and signed off on it and there is little at this stage we can do about any issues.
There is a conflict resolution process but it may take up to 3 or 4 weeks for an issue to be fixed.
Dezza
Those first arriving people may be requires as part of the crew leaving the station unmanned. - unfortunatly it does happen leaving an opening for a potential problem under their proposed plan.
There are other issues concerning 'responding to pager times' and defalting to other brigades. To be discussed later....
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Thanks Mike... :) This is going to be interesting.....
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In my group we frequently run entire incidents through SHQ because no station opens up...
i reckon with the merger its gonna be harder to this...might be more times "more crew required" just to run the radio room...
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It is set to become a lot more challenging, particularly if we dont get a straight answer before July 1st...
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Stuff them just stay on the regional talk group like you do now and they can do it, thats what they get paid for, i'm sure they will cope. What are they going to do sack you.
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exactly. I have it written down in my notes that Mal Watts said that Adelaide Fire will do comms for an incident on the regional ops talkgroup (ie. 124 for R1) until a station/base opens, exactly as SOCC do now. If none opens they will do it for the whole incident. I'm sure they don't really want to do that, and will be looking for someone to take comms asap but if no one does, tough luck you stay on 124.
other points: I like the way Mal stated they had spoken to volunteers about it, including regional management committees, COAC and the VFBA. "Spoken" perhaps (or vaguely hinted more like) but not consulted. I know for a fact the R1 management committee were not consulted. And ask the VFBA if they think they were consulted.
I also love that he said there are no changes to the way brigades will interact with Adelaide Fire, apart from using a different name. Then it turns out that in fact there are a few key things that they want to change. Personally I think some of the changes are good but it needs to be really clear what exactly is changing otherwise at brigade level people won't know and hence there will be serious stuffups.
I think the overall concept of having one fire comms centre is the only sensible way to go but they don't seem to have realised that they can't have a one size fits all model for every group/brigade in the state. I also think a few senior CFS staff members need their arses kicked over they way they have handled the whole thing.
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I think the overall concept of having one fire comms centre is the only sensible way to go but they don't seem to have realised that they can't have a one size fits all model for every group/brigade in the state. I also think a few senior CFS staff members need their arses kicked over they way they have handled the whole thing.
Agreed.
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Mal may have said those things Darius - but i await for the official written advice saying thats what will occur. It certainly wouldnt be the first time something has been said and something totally different actually happen.
Apart from the actual merger - what do you consider were the other good points?
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There was much objection to US nominating a TG and going straight to it.
What it means is - A appliance responding to an incident can sit on a TG without anyone to talk to.
Under the current system appliances will remain on TG 124 until a station/base/person comes online to take the communications from SOCC. The TG allocated is that of the group/person taking command.
Just to clarify a couple of things.
The way we respond to a call is staying the same.
MFS page goes out and must be acknowledged within 6 minutes. 4 minutes for EMA brigades.No acknowledgement MFS will ring the ALERTS phone.No answer brigade is defaulted.
Appliance responds on TG124 and remains there as we do now, and when a station or group open we will be advised what talkgroup the incident is running on.
The suggestion that we will have noone to talk to is incorrect.
When other resources are responded they will still call on TG124 and be advised what talkgroup to change to.
Dont forget there are 5 SOCC operators transferring to MFS Comms and are training the MFS Comcen operators in our procedures so it gets done right.
Gary Bau is effectively the MFS Liason in relation to any issues that brigades will have so any issues are dealt with as they arise.
The plus of this new system is we are not a stand alone comcen anymore, and there are redundancies in place to cater for a Communication failure which is backed up by SAAS and SAPOL.
The advertising of the "000" number has been in place since March 2006, and brigades should have removed their alarm numbers from all stations,advertising,stationary,etc by now to comply with the SLA.
CFS/MFS had a ministerial directive to put this in place by July 1st.
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So if some smart arse from a non ema brigade starts using K-codes are they gonna get a kick up the arse??? :roll:
Surely if sitreps are kept short and sweet and no unneccesary chit chat, it couldn't be all that hard to remain on 124.
And if the incident escalates and the lead appliance or OIC can handle it they can take comms through their radio on a group talkgroup like we do occasionally now??
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Mal may have said those things Darius - but i await for the official written advice saying thats what will occur. It certainly wouldnt be the first time something has been said and something totally different actually happen.
yeah true but in this case if people are not told differently they will keep doing things as they have been. After 1st July if you respond and Adelaide Fire say "go to talkgroup 120" you should reply "through which station or base?" then if they don't know or say none, you say you will remain on 124 until one opens.
I will be surprised if anything written comes out by 1st July to answer all the questions raised last night (although would be happy to be surprised).
Apart from the actual merger - what do you consider were the other good points?
Well perhaps the biggest single improvement will be that SOCC and MFS Comcen will not have to phone each other to respond brigades (eg. brigades already on MFS direct paging versus those responded by SOCC). It may also improve the responding of fire appliances to 000 calls taken by the SAAS comcen, or then again maybe not until SACAD comes in.
Other things are MFS have a better set up comcen that SOCC, in terms of redundant power and communications links. Also apparently better GRN voice recording and automatic existing procedures for fallover to SAAS then SAPOL comcens in the event of overload/failure, prioritising of 000 calls etc.
Things not yet mentioned on here are:
- there is a new phone number to contact Adelaide Fire (although I imagine the old one groups already direct-paged by MFS have will continue to work),
- MFS comcen operators are being trained in CFS procedures and the ex-CFS OCOs are being trained in MFS procedures. You will not have different types of operators depending if it's a CFS or MFS appliance calling, all operators will be doing all comms,
- Regional Coordination Centres (RCC) will not take over comms on the regional ops talkgroups, even on TFBs (this is obviously paving the way for future changes to talkgroup usage and management when SACAD comes in),
- Adelaide Fire can still assist with weekly pager/siren tests although it sounded to me like they would prefer not to,
- there is no requirement to transmit arrival messages, sitreps, appliances on training, return to station etc messages to Adelaide Fire, it should be to brigade station or group base or RCC (although it wasn't explained what role the RCC will take in operations if they are not answering the regional ops talkgroups), however you can do all the above if you wish, although again sounded like they would prefer not to,
- AIRS reporting remains the same (fax/phone to SOCC), new web-based system coming soon apparently including the ability for groups/brigades to see their call details/stats online,
- no K-codes for CFS appliances and MFS operators will use the appliance names not codes (eg. "Burnside Pumper" not "2919"),
- Air Ops will stay with SOCC for now,
- Gary Bau is the liason and first "port of call" for any problems with responses
Problems raised last night and not resolved are:
- default time of 4 mins or 6 mins? was going to be 4 mins for everyone, suggestion to compromise on 5 mins but really it should stay like it is now (there is no reason for all brigades/groups to be the same)
- issue of Adelaide Fire calling the group ALERTS number to get acknowledgement of receipt of a response page. This one clearly hasn't been thought through and several problems with this approach were raised (it showed a lack of understanding by HQ staff about how many groups operate - which I have to point out could have been discovered by them earlier, and resolved, by consulting with the regional management committees).
anyway that's enough typing from me!!
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Well when we we in region 5 be informned of all these on going changes?? no one has said anything down here and when I asked some one up the chain(Volunteer) he said he did not know.....
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[issue of Adelaide Fire calling the group ALERTS number to get acknowledgement of receipt of a response page. This one clearly hasn't been thought through and several problems with this approach were raised (it showed a lack of understanding by HQ staff about how many groups operate - which I have to point out could have been discovered by them earlier, and resolved, by consulting with the regional management committees]
What would the issue be?????
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Fellow Fire-figthers,
I have read everything you are saying but I think you need to step back from the issue and take the following points down.
You as a volunteer give the fire service a resource or plainly put it "free labour". The fire service teaches you life to life skills everyday on and off the job. You as a volunteer DO NOT have to be consulted in what they are going to do. You as members of the service take orders from the officers above. We all know this as this is what we call the "chain of command". Therefore if they want to change the system to whatever they want they can do this is, and if you can't get over it well that's tough luck.
The Service could of given the volunteers a different approach with this and basically handed you a flyer saying this is what is going to happen and you need to bring your brigade and group SOP's in line with these new dispatch procedure which are going to occur.
But the service did not do this, in fact what they did is gave every member the opportunity to attend these meetings and give members the opportunity to understand what is going to occur and clarify any issues you may have. The fire service is trying to get you involved to help you understand the system and get you to move in a positive step forward prior to SACAD.
What the CFS do not want is people bitching and complaining the way in which is occurring now and sadly with the attitude of some people a non-factual article could be produced in the paper and cause "KAOS" within the community. (I hope this does not occur.)
In fact if you look at the proposal this is exactly what the 30 cfs brigades which are currently on SAMFS BOMS do now. We get a page from MFS inform MFS of the page and then just do our job as normal. CFS have used MFS BOMS for over 10 years and have not at this stage had an issue which could not be resolved or a issue of service not being delivered.
The new system will make it easier for brigades, maybe some brigades will need to slightly change their way in they operate. "So what". Just do it and make it happen. But really you are doing the same thing as you do now. Currently if you are not on the SAMFS BOMS system and you a paged by SOC you still confirm the page with SOC instead confirm with "Adelaide Fire".
It is now even easier for all parties BOMS brigades and NON-BOMS BRIGADES as you have different options in confirming that page.
SAMFS don't want you to learn K-codes in fact from my understanding they are trying to get rid of them in their own organisation.
As said by a Captain last night it is sad that if so many people can't understand what is going to occur it makes it very scary as this new procedure is exactly the same as you use.
No disagreeing that brigades which are not in Region 1 will have a slight culture change, and from phonecalls a I have had from regions 3, 6, 5 & 4 they are quite happy of the change and think it is a positive move forward.
For all the right reasons this merger is better for the volunteers and the community and the community is the most important out of all of this.
The State Coordination Centre will still be in CFS H/q and also the CFS intelligent cell will remain the same. The only thing we are changing is the dispatch. The operational capabilities of a upgraded incident will still be the same as it is.
More options for CFS with this change and more dispatch capabilities will occur with this change.
As discussed this has been proposed for 10 years now so eventually it was going to happen.
I will leave you with this if you can't handle this slight change to your brigade maybe you are in the wrong organisation as their will be bigger and better changes in the next 10 years for both fire services in SA.
All it is, is that some people can not handle change and if this is the case that is disappointing.
Well done!! Govt, SAMFS & SACFS for this change!!
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Well when we we in region 5 be informned of all these on going changes?? no one has said anything down here and when I asked some one up the chain(Volunteer) he said he did not know.....
Brace yourself Bill:
Naracoorte Town Hall, 26th June 2007 at 2000hrs.
Letter arrived yesterday, inviting a brigade representative.
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Gotta love the whole acknowledge thing. our group was told by region that there is to be no acknowledging pagers to SHQ if you don't come up on air within 7mins then you default......
Thats fine but our brigade at night only just scrapes in on the 7 min mark as a lot of our members live up one end of town, so pretty much being the first one there i ring SHQ and Acknowledge the page, as there is nothing worse than defaulting at 2 in the morning only to go mobile 20-30 seconds later.
Yet i have asked a member of the SOCC if we are/nt meant to acknowledge page and i got the answer " we prefer it" as they hate defaulting soemone to have them up on air 1 minute later going mobile....
Mack might be able to better answer that statement??
So is our group getting or giving mixed messages?? ( yes i realise this is all about to change.) :-D
End Rant
As for the new system, why not have it that if the brigade doesn't contact MFS within 6 minutes whether it be by radio or phone they default??? Wouldn't that be easier than MFS ringing the alerts no. ????
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Unfortunately, it was said that at this meeting, in terms of call receipt & dispatch, "everything will be the same...no change to what you do now, except you talk to the Call sign "Adeladie Fire" not "State HQ"
But then went on to detail the process & procedures which haven't changed, but those procedures were slightly different to what we in Region 1 currently ...and thus created confusion amongst those at the meeting.
It was clear from comments made at the meeting, by those attending, that many people have no idea of why they do the things they do now, in terms of call receipt & dispatch (and that is what we are talking about - call receipt & dispatch NOT SACAD )
There were some issues where suggestions had been made as to what procedures are going to occur, which did show a lack of understanding of how Groups & brigades in general, work with their call receipt & dispatch.
Perhaps to elaborate a little further on what others have posted...
A suggestion was made that when a response page is sent to a CFS brigade, that the Adelaide Fire then ring the ALERTS number for the brigade, to confirm that the page has been received, rather than wait for a brigade to either come up on radio, or ring through on the phone, to acknowledge the RECEIPT of the page.
A few problems with that
It was stated that sometimes if Adelaide Fire were busy, they wouldn't get time to ring the ALERTS in all cases... so straight away you have a system that works some of the time, but not necessarily all of the time.
A major issue for some Groups, the ALERTS system is run on a Group basis, not a brigade basis...so there might be 8 phone answerers on ALERTS. A page for brigade "Somewhere' is sent, and Adelaide Fire rings the ALERTS number to confirm the page. Probelm is only 3 of the phone answerers have a Group Pager, and the rest don't get the page for the "Somewhere" brigade, and hence can't confirm that a page has been received, because their pagers can't receive the message anyway...
In addition, if that Group ALERTS system was contacted everytime there was a page for that Group, that would be a lot of calls through a small number of people, who may well be rather peeved to receive large number of calls, for something they have no involvement in anyway!!
It was suggested from those presenting the session, that we could call in on our home phone, or our mobile on the way to the station,to acknowledge the page. I don't think the concept of a) if you don't have a hands free kit, you are acting illegally in making the call, and b) many areas have limited or no mobile phone coverage, and hence making the call on the way to the station is pointless!!!
The issue in relation to times taken to acknowledge a call was also a point of discussion - currently EMA brigades have 4 minutes to acknowledge the call with Adelaide Fire, while the rest of us currently have 6 minutes to acknowledge the pager. If no acknowledgement was received then a default brigade is called. The suggesting made at the presentation was that the time be 4 minute acknowledgement time....many at the meeting felt that particularly for rural brigades, 4 minutes is a very difficult time frame for crews to get to the station and acknowledge the page.........
These two issues were going to be explored by those in charge of the project, and see what they can come up with.
But with only 2 weeks before the transition to the new system, not having sorted out these issue is a bit of a concern.
I hope that they can quickly sort out these issues, and advise us all BEFORE the commencement of the new system...
Pip
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Well i guess i am lucky to be in a brigade that nothing will really change.
when you say EMA brigades have 3 minutes to acknowledge a page does that mean the Brigade is responded wit MFS for this job or the brigade sometimes works with MFS and so has to respond with in 3 min?
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bittenyakka - Firstly, its 4 minutes not 3 minutes... But to answer your question, in this case EMA brigades means brigades responded by MFS. This means that if the pager message begins with MFS: RESPOND you have 4 minutes to acknowledge the page, rather than the 6 minutes you would have if the message was sent by SHQ.
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When a brigade rings Adelaide Fire to acknowledge the call this should be able to be completed quite easily the options are: 1. Elect a Brigade Duty Officer if you do not have one and get them to ring prior leaving their house or what ever they are doing. (To ring and confirm the page will take no longer than 30 seconds.) 2.Or if the BDO has a GRN they can call via 124 and acknowledge the page. 3.Or do as most brigades do now get the first person arriving to the station to confirm the page. I would not think it would be very often if someone would not arrive at a station within the 4 or 6 minute mark and if they don't, contingency's should be put in place to default brigades. So what, if another brigade is responded then told to stand down these things happen it is better to over resource than under resource.
I felt that their was fear that at exactly 4 minutes another brigade would be defaulted and for the people what enjoy monitoring the paging website would be able to confirm that the 4 minute default very rarely occurs maybe at the 6 minute mark it occurs and most times past this time as well.
My understanding that the alerts notification would not go ahead as we were in agreeance that this would not work, and in fact at the moment the BOMS brigades do not get a phone call we ring MFS ourselves. Further to this not all brigades and groups alerts work and due to software corruption their has been great trouble in trying to repair these problems.
The 4 minutes is pretty flexible you very rarely going to get another station paged after 4 minutes it is probably more like 6 minutes as per cfs sop.
At a big picture meaning out of Region 1 rural brigades and regions 2,3,4,5,6 think that acknowledging a page in 4 minutes is not an issue, but for some unknown reason it is an issue here in 1. Where you would think it would be easier for a brigade in region 1 to acknowledge the page in 4 minutes than other regions.
I guess at the moment their are so many different ways of dispatch in the cfs and some of these probably not directly adhering to the SOP's but this moment in time gives us the opportunity to rectify these problems which may be occurring.
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dont see why we should call them,radio is faster to call them up and as for them being busy well one can only hope that on a TFB that they will have more staff to cover these busdy days......
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we have been calling(phone) them for a while and it works fine. Personally ringing MFS is easier than radio especially if MFS is on speed dial.
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If you can't get one single person to your station in 4 mins then I think you should be defaulted, we do have an incident to attend, so 4 mins is pretty good, like ltdan said, create a duty officer, he or she can aknowledge the page, and make sure the truck responds. If you can't make a phone call, radio call etc in 4 mins, then something is wrong, hence the default.
I know some brigades are just lazy, you know they are there, they just don't so it, so toughen up, its done for a reason.
As for resource tracking, if my station isn't open, I am staying on 124, with all the coronial crap, I want what I am doing recorded, 99% of commcen's in the world run the jobs, we are the exception, in victoria now they all run through either vicfire in the city or vicfire ballarat, BUT we must keep our transmissions to the point, CFS is very very bad at our radio work, we woffle far to much.
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should we move this to members only before some news on this falls into the wrong hands?
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All straight forward stuff so far....No need to move 8-)
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SHQ: ANDY PLEASE PHONE CLARE PEDDY AT THE ADVERTISER 82062204 REGARDING CHANGES TO CFS COMMUNICATIONS CENTRE TO MFS COMMUNICATIONS CENTRE < 17/06/2007 14:50:26
hrmmmm....
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So where did the rest of the SOCC staff go to??? if only 4 got jobs at MFS...
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I *think* it may be 5..
However as the remaining were to my understanding Casuals, unless CFS move them into another area, one could only *assume* their would be no position for them..
Hopefully im wrong though, would hate to hear some of them lost their job.
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yes it's 5 (as has already been said). Some will stay at SOCC, there is other things they do apart from CRD and radio comms.
other points, Pip the 4 mins default time currently is all brigades direct-paged by MFS, not just EMA brigades. And as for pumprescue, you're obviously in an urban area with many members near the station, which is your good fortune. In my brigade (semi-rural) we struggle to get anyone to the station in 4 mins simply due to the distance. If I run out the back door as the pager goes off it takes me between 3-4 mins to get to the station. If I am out in the paddock (only talking a small property too) or in bed and have to get dressed first etc, it's easily 5 mins. And I am one of the closer members to the station. Out in rural areas it can be much longer of course again due to the distances involved.
It struck me at the meeting, there was much confusion what the default time (whether 4 or 6 mins or whatever) is for. Talking after within my group we understood it to mean that if you acknowledge receipt of the pager message to MFS/SOCC then you (personally) then take responsibility for a truck getting out the door in a reasonable timeframe or else you contact MFS/SOCC again to respond another brigade (ie. default). This is the way we have been working.
Now it appears they are saying anyone can acknowledge the page as all you are doing is confirming the pager message was sent out properly. But the big question then is who takes responsibility that a truck gets out the door or another brigade is responded. Because of course at the time of acknowledging the page you don't know yet if you will get a crew. I could be 2 hours away from home (or somewhere closer but not in a position to respond) but still ring MFS/SOCC and acknowledge the page then carry on what I was doing. So who will ensure there is a timely response? Or is it that they are now saying that acknowledging the page does not stop the "defaulting timer", as it currently does? If so, that means we now have 4 or 6 mins to get rolling instead of currently 4 or 6 mins to acknowledge the page (which will mean a lot more defaulting will happen). I can't see it working properly either way but perhaps (hopefully) there is something I am missing.
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There will only be 4 OCO's going even though all the paper work says 5....
It's not all that difficult is it? You have 6 minutes to acknowledge the page, that means you have 6 minutes to tell adelaide fire that at least one person in your brigade has the details, if you do not that means to adelaide fire that you have possibly not received the page and they will ring your ALERTS to see whats going on, if you don't answer your alerts they will send another brigade. It would be preferable that you acknowledge the page from the station but if someone does acknowledge the page elsewhere they should have a radio to monitor when the truck is mobile eg. a Captain or Group officer.
As part of EMA those brigades that do EMA will still have to go by the EMA rules when responding into MFS area.
2 questions/comments i have and will be saying.
1. When responding to MFS area do you have to go mobile with CFS and MFS seeing as they will be right next to each other?
2. I will just be staying on the state talkgroup until a station is on air.
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I have to agree with Tillerman, it is really not that hard our station has a stationed owned mobile. Pager goes off you ring Adelaide fire if your the Duty officer, they give you any relavant infomation about the job. So while your on the way to the station you already have a pre-plan in your head or when your Lt's and Snr's come up on air on your local talk group if they are at the station before you, you can relay any infomation on your local talk group and get an appliance rolling down the street.
A lot of urban fringe brigades have been doing this for years. I think if you don't reply in the alloted time you get defaulted why expect Adelaide fire especially if they are busy to ring around looking for whats going on in a brigade.
Talk about a storm in a tea cup! :evil:
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I have to agree with Tillerman, it is really not that hard our station has a stationed owned mobile. Pager goes off you ring Adelaide fire if your the Duty officer, they give you any relavant infomation about the job. So while your on the way to the station you already have a pre-plan in your head or when your Lt's and Snr's come up on air on your local talk group if they are at the station before you, you can relay any infomation on your local talk group and get an appliance rolling down the street.
And if the person with the station mobile is unavailable / out of reception / misses the page, what happens then? How do the people at the station know if the page has been acknowledged? What if the duty officer (who acknowledges the page) is 15 minutes from the station and arrives to find no one else has responded? In an urban brigade, the brigade should have defaulted 10 minutes ago...
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so just make it first at the station confirms the page or if distance is a problem have a duty officer.
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What if the person that acknowledges the page is in Adelaide, but there is a localised paging outage in the South East and no one down there receives it. You then have MFS believing the page has been received and no one responding to the station.
Just make it the first person in the station acknowledges the page, then they take ownership of getting the truck out the door or defaulting to another brigade - easy.
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The key to this part of the discussion is that WE should be contacting Adelaide Fire, rather than them contacting us. All brigades should already have a process in place that works for them, so keep using it!
In our case the GDO is always carrying a radio with them. They acknowledge the page and notify of default if the bigade doesnt come online (GRN 124).
We just need it acknowledged by the powers that be to ensure a consistant, smooth running (ie. as it is!) system.
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we have our information night in mid July so a few calls to a room with no in it might happen. We have no problem getting someone there in 4 mins
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As i said preferably the page should be acknowledged at the station but if distance doesn't alow that then someone with a radio should be given the job, if that person is the only one to get the page then at least they can ask for the brigade to be re-paged and for a default brigade to be sent. Like was said every brigade should currently have a system in place for this and if they don't they better get to planning one. E.g my brigade will default after 6 minutes if the truck is not MOBILE but this is only MY brigade that does this, other brigades may have other ways of doing it. As long as that page is acknowledged so that the brigade takes control of their response. This is alot better than if CFS just turned around and said if your not MOBILE in 8 or 10 or 12 minutes then you will be defaulted, that would just get messy.
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And if the person with the station mobile is unavailable / out of reception / misses the page, what happens then? How do the people at the station know if the page has been acknowledged? What if the duty officer (who acknowledges the page) is 15 minutes from the station and arrives to find no one else has responded? In an urban brigade, the brigade should have defaulted 10 minutes ago...
To answer to this is simple the duty officer is the Capt/Lt if they are out of area one of the other Lt's has the duty phone so therefore has a radio on them so knows whats going on at the station. Has been working at our station for years as we rarely get responded by CFS SOC. We use to make it first to the station but some of the guys would forget with being more interested in getting the appliance out the door, but what ever works for the individual brigade is fine. :-D
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what if you all had to go and fight fire instead of saying "what if" 500 times on this forum....If you don't get on the road in the allocated time you should default, if you dont default you are a few screws loose in the head and should not be in the fire brigade.
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At our brigade meeting last night we were told that every shift once Adelaide Fire takes over dispatch and paging from CFS will include an ex CFS SOC member :-)
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And if the person with the station mobile is unavailable / out of reception / misses the page, what happens then? How do the people at the station know if the page has been acknowledged? What if the duty officer (who acknowledges the page) is 15 minutes from the station and arrives to find no one else has responded? In an urban brigade, the brigade should have defaulted 10 minutes ago...
To answer to this is simple the duty officer is the Capt/Lt if they are out of area one of the other Lt's has the duty phone so therefore has a radio on them so knows whats going on at the station. Has been working at our station for years as we rarely get responded by CFS SOC. We use to make it first to the station but some of the guys would forget with being more interested in getting the appliance out the door, but what ever works for the individual brigade is fine. :-D
Well in my area that pretty much means the Captain & 4 Lts will be out of range of the mobile, often out of range of the portable GRN (which the Captain currently hangs on to,) and depending on where you happen to be at the time the pager comes through, you may well miss that too....half the time, the Lt's only know there is a call out when the siren goes off, or a second page goes out, saying the appliance has responded to a call... (Recpetion issues have been discussed at length on this, and other forums...
So, back to first person who gets to the station acknowledges the page....it works for my brigade..... it may not work for everyone, and as has been said...go with what works for you!
Pip
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The issue in some brigades will be getting someone to the station in 4 mins to acknowledge the page due to travelling time, this should be changed to 6 mins but i understand that the system is set up for 4 mins so i reckon it will change to 6 mins when things settle down a bit and someone has time to change the programs in the BOMS system.
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Exactly, give it time to settle in and make suggestions, no point flying off the handle now, we will let it settle in, but I am sure there will be some old stick in the muds that will cry from day 1.
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And July 1 draws ever near....
Four minutes sounds like a luxury to me, takes me nine :x
I disagree with whoever said essentially that 'we're volunteers therefore we take direction and like it or lump it'. That's crap and CFS is well aware of the need to look after their vollies. Lets hope with more information flow, there are less misinformation floods.
Speaking of which, I don't know if we had a meeting about all this down here, but I missed the invite.
My only concern of course is that system bugs may mean inefficient resource allocations that slow down response times and close windows of opportunity for saving lives.
Let us all hope for lots of mundane call outs to cats in trees so we can sort out any bugs before rapid response is truly required (no offense to the poor kitty in the tree).
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So are we being paged with a standard the MFS page setup with station/appliance codes or are we getting station names included in the page??
Have heard that the latter is happening by someone in our group, but i thought it would be the way MFS have been doing it for years??
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not sure what is happening initially...
but eventually response paging from MFS will have shortened brigade names at the end...
eg; CRML or MBKR
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Well it seems that not everyone is happy about the transition. According to the latest copy of the UFU newsletter if things aren't resolved soon the SES and CFS might be taking back their own CRD in the short term.
Can't see it happening though because they have conveniently left out the fact that 4 ex CFS OCO's will now be joining the comm's team.
http://www.ufusa.asn.au/wordback_5.pdf (http://www.ufusa.asn.au/wordback_5.pdf)
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well for a start the SES didnt have their own full time comms people anyway. Also the UFU dont always get what they want...
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Can't see it happening though because they have conveniently left out the fact that 4 ex CFS OCO's will now be joining the comm's team.
The way I read it, they want extra people working each shift, not just more people who can do the work. It doesn't matter how many OCOs come over from CFS if they're still running with the same number of people on shift...
not sure what is happening initially...
but eventually response paging from MFS will have shortened brigade names at the end...
eg; CRML or MBKR
Is this in place of the station/appliance numbers, or in addition to them?
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So are we being paged with a standard the MFS page setup with station/appliance codes or are we getting station names included in the page??
Have heard that the latter is happening by someone in our group, but i thought it would be the way MFS have been doing it for years??
At the meeting in Region 1, we were told that the paging would continue to come of AIRPRO, so messages will look the same as they do now,...although there were some mumbles when if came to whether the whole brigade name is put in, or just the brigade code..... they did say that it wasn't going to be number codes for all brigades (although not sure what the plan is for brigades currently being turn out by MFS)
But it would appear that things are changing on a daily basis, so it might have changed by now!!!
Pip
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not sure what is happening initially...
but eventually response paging from MFS will have shortened brigade names at the end...
eg; CRML or MBKR
Is this in place of the station/appliance numbers, or in addition to them?
in place of
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Everything will be done through BOMS, so those that get turned out by SAMFS now will only see the change from numbers to letters, eg 1279 will be MBKR. Airsource will only be used as a back up and notification system, not a turnout system.
For the basic firefighter, if your pager goes, respond to the station.
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Surely it is better to have a system with a pre determined response than just some group officer on the fire phone saying "Oh yeah 1 brigade will do for that house fire, it probably won't be much" like happens now..... how many times do you see only 1 brigade turn out to a job that 2 or even 3 should go to.
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A lot fewer times than I see 4+ appliances going to a call that only requires one.
That aside if your saying that group officers are specifying negligent responses then you should make a complaint or stop electing them.
I don't see how a computer can make a better decision than a group officer. A group officer more than likely has 15+ years with the CFS, has been involved in thousands of incidents and is able to consider a complex set of variables, whereas the computer does a set of preassigned steps.
I'd choose the decision of a group officer over a computer any day.The Group officer cares about the outcome, The computer does not.
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Yes that's partially true but I have seen group level decisions be affected by group boundaries and tribal thinking rather than incident outcome.
I'd rather a computer determine an appropriate response sending the closest resource than a GO sending only his/her group to boundary calls.
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Case in point yesterday, MVA Old willunga hill road normally Willunga and Alding would go, but the system sent Mt Compass instead of Aldinga because they are close to that side of willunga than Aldinga.....
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thats fine Hicks, but of course in your wisdom you know that firies dont get to vote for group officers, do they??
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Yes I do know that GOs don't get elected directly by FFs. Different brigades run different policies on this. Some put it to the members for a vote on who the brigade will vote for, other leave it to the management committee to nominate. In others just the captain picks. Either way, a FF can usually have his or her influence on the decision. If it was viewed that a group officer wasn't doing the right thing then pressure can be brought to bear through brigade and group politics. There's no such influence with the computer system.
Ps closest brigade doesn't always mean the quickest to get there. Is the computer system aware that brigade A has to go through 3 sets of locked gates and down a fire track to get to the incident, whereas brigade B may have further in distance to come, but has a quicker run with no gates to open and sealed road to travel on? No, it simply looks at distance.
People always think they are closer when their not turned out. Once again I'd rather have a GO take responsibility than blame the outcome on a computer glitch.
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15:13:43 02-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 53 - 02/07/07 15:13,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,LITTLE PARA RD,KERSBROOK, MAP 87 Q 10 ,,LOBE, CUDL, CHAIN OF PONDS SIDE OF KERSBROOK CEMETARY,13419 21724*CFSRES:
cant get rid of the numbers can they!! :P 134-Rescue 217-24...now LOBE, CUDL
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i think there putting those in there to make it easier for group and brigades trying to work out which set of 5 numbers is them LOL.
if anyone is interested...
1/34/19 = Region One/Lobethal Stn/Rescue
Pretty much the same as the old station numbers, last two digits being appliance type... only differance is the addition of Region number at the start... Shouldnt bother too many people as in theory it wont be around too long..
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actually i believe the station number would be "134"...as Stirling is "90"....not really Region Based...but hey anything is possible.
Common last two digits would be:
8 or 24 - Any non specific appliance
19 - PumpRescue / Rescue
58 - Hazmat
Eg: 1358 Balhannah..13558 Balhannah Hazmat
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I thought Hazmat was 28...
Brigades previously paged by MFS haven't seen a change of number ie Morphett Vale is still 8124, Happy Valley 8032, not 18124,18032. From what I have seen on the pager site, all the new 5 digit numbers we are seeing simply refer to station number + call type. However, I do see a pattern that all the rural region 1 station numbers seem to start with a 1, region 2 with a two etc Example Sheaoak Log is 229 (Region 2), Yacka 496 (region 4), Naracoorte 562 (Region 5). Burnside is still 29, not 129. All means very little when these numbers cease to be used.
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dezza34p - in the new temporary system the first number is the region, and that is a fact not a guess... all brigades should have this information.
also hazmat is 28. another one commonly used may be tanker 42. also 8 & 24 are specific appliances being a 4x4 pumper and a 2000L 4wd...
as calspec said, brigades previously paged by MFS Comcen will see no change, until the new system is put in place with alphabetical codes
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Refer to your station faxes regarding the short Brigade names being on pager messages. Due to teething problems most but not all Brigade are programmed to have their short name come up on the page. This will be rectified along with ALERTS calls not making MFS.
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its only temp till the software is fixed at mfs comms
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its only temp till the software is fixed at mfs comms
You'd think they'd have it all tested and working before they changed over.
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Having our Regional meeting with Gary Bau tonight re merger so will post any details, although most has already been discussed.
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Worst noticeable change so far is you have to read half the pager message before you know what you are going to. :?
Who cares about the daily incident number at the beginning.
Was better when it was at the end of the pager message like before :evil:
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MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 106 - 03/07/07 21:34,RESPOND Tree Down,BOGADUCK RD,ALDGATE, MAP 157 E 4 ,,NEAR MADURTA AVE - LARGE TREE DOWN BLOCKING ENTIRE ROAD - P1 - RAE #### ####,72120*CFSRES:
Could really be:
MFS: #106 RESPOND TREEDOWN P1, BOGADUCK RD,ALDGATE; NEAR MADURTA AVE - LARGE TREE BLOCKING ROAD, PH RAE:########, 72120,*CFSRES - 03/03/07 21:34
saving 40 characters...potentially increasing reliability of reciving the pager message without corrupting...especially in this weather. Also would making reading the message and understanding it quickly easier.
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It was definitely better this way by a country mile im sure everyone would agree
MFS:RESPOND RCR,3/07/07 21:26 SALISBURY HWY,MAWSON LAKES, MAP 82 E 7 ,,FROM POLICE NO FURTHER DETAILS,DAILY INCIDENT NO.104,9119 329 321*CFSRES:
:-D
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It would seem that not everyone is happy about the new move if you read this
http://www.ufusa.asn.au/wordback_5.pdf
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At least people read the pager now... - Nothing worse (or more annoying) than people bowling up not knowing what you are going too, or putting on the wrong gear, or asking " What is it, I didnt read my pager, just left when tone 7 went off " ...
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:roll: :roll: :roll: isnt that what us CFS volunteers do as soon as i hear tone 7 and see URGMSG or any other kinda response message appear on my pager im out the door :-)
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That can be a real problem when you have a Group pager..... :-D
Pip
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hahaha i believe ya on that one pip hehe....my captain keeps his on Vibrate.
its very decieving when ur pager message gets corrupt at the CFSRES section....only Tone 1 hehe....happened to me once at 3am....inital thought WHO THE filtered has my pager number!
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:roll: :roll: :roll: isnt that what us CFS volunteers do as soon as i hear tone 7 and see URGMSG or any other kinda response message appear on my pager im out the door :-)
"TEST RESPONSE PAGE, PLEASE IGNORE, DO NOT RESPOND *CFSRES:"
- You bowl up at the station and wonder whats going on..?
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:roll: :roll: :roll: isnt that what us CFS volunteers do as soon as i hear tone 7 and see URGMSG or any other kinda response message appear on my pager im out the door :-)
That depends on if your pager is locked in a safe :-P :-D :lol: