SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: nomansland firefighter on August 30, 2007, 10:32:16 AM
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Last night at our AGM the Regional Commander turn up considering we don't get regional officers at our AGM unless invited. The captain, and the other officer from the look on their faces said concern and panic as this was an out of the blue. We did not have quorum and as a consequence we were told unofficially that we will be going down the path of having our operations suspended. His reason for taking this action was their are not enough volunteers living in the town and that our responce time were not up to scratch. What do they expect when you just cant get ppe, pagers or anything. What do they expect from small rural towns where the jobs are 60 km away yes their will be a delay if your employer will allow you to go. Where do you find volunteers when the age of the townpeople is hitting it mid 70's.
With the rant now over how well does this sit with concepts of project sherpa more importantly no advice was given in how to rectify the problem i.e. who to speak to or what tools would be available. How value do you think we now feel in the cfs as we are all keen to carry on. The captain is speaking to the members and what I feel is that their is more of resolve now to maintain brigade as we all still want to be members.
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What Brigade ?
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Last night at our AGM the Regional Commander turn up considering we don't get regional officers at our AGM unless invited. The captain, and the other officer from the look on their faces said concern and panic as this was an out of the blue. We did not have quorum and as a consequence we were told unofficially that we will be going down the path of having our operations suspended. His reason for taking this action was their are not enough volunteers living in the town and that our responce time were not up to scratch. What do they expect when you just cant get ppe, pagers or anything. What do they expect from small rural towns where the jobs are 60 km away yes their will be a delay if your employer will allow you to go. Where do you find volunteers when the age of the townpeople is hitting it mid 70's.
With the rant now over how well does this sit with concepts of project sherpa more importantly no advice was given in how to rectify the problem i.e. who to speak to or what tools would be available. How value do you think we now feel in the cfs as we are all keen to carry on. The captain is speaking to the members and what I feel is that their is more of resolve now to maintain brigade as we all still want to be members.
i think that is very sad to hear as there is alot of stations with the same problems but i think that it is disgusting to hear that they will probably shut you down is there another station to back you up in this time of need
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samfs has hit the nail on the head you need the support from your neighbouring brigades weather they be CFS or MFS to help you get through this tough times ....i know its hard....this sounds like the same situation Seaford was in some time ago
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if its a rural brigade....just send as many crew as you get...act as a support brigade if anything. We only managed a crew of 2 this morning (a rekindle of rubbish fire)...but the real need was for water instead of crew (a lot of which have gone on holidays). So assistance from other brigades and to other brigades is good
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This is, unfortunately, a problem right across the state - for various reasons - a actual lack of people on the district, a lack of able bodied people, a perception (real or perceived) that the brigade is a bunch of hose jockeys that no-one else wants to be part of, or in a few cases, the community wants to support their CFS in every way...except to actually join..
Some of these issues can be addressed, and things (potentially) can be changed.
But, if every able bodied person in the district (and probably some not so able bodied) are members, and you still don't have enough, it is not issue that is easily dealt with (short of a mining company moving in 20 km away, and setting up in the town.)
Nomansland firefighter, I assume from your post, that you are 60 km or more from a larger town, which presumably has a fire service...which would probably mean you are a long way in any direction from another CFS brigade....simply closing down leaves a massive gap in any emergency response...
I don't know what appliance you have, but if you have a 24 / 34 sized, would downsizing to a 14 or QAV help - in that at least the appliance can go out with two people on board, (which is an acceptable number in a 14, not so much in a 24 or 34).
The other thing to remember (and the Regional Commander perhaps needs to be reminded of this) is that under the Act, the CFS cannot just close an existing brigade. The Act is quite specific about the CO liaising with the local community in relation to the closure of the brigade - and not just calling a meeting to tell the community that the CFS will be closing down the brigade.
AS for not having a quorum...have a look at your membership list. If there are people who haven't attended for some time, or a physically incapable of being part of the service, then take them off the list (there is a process to do this by).
Once these people have been removed from your membership lists, you call another meeting - and AGM or Special General Meeting, and hopefully have a quorum then. (In my book, there is no point in having a huge membership list, with the bulk of them unable to do anything in the service).
If there are older members, who can't actually do much / anything anymore, but still want to be part of the brigade, they can be transferred to a new membership class....which I can't remember the name of, which is a non voting member (has no voting rights), doesn't go out to calls etc, but can still be a member...that may remove some of your quorum issues, but also means you can get some of those types of members off your active (and therefore voting) list...
Pip
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short of a mining company moving in 20 km away, and setting up in the town
A gold mine is being planed for the area which is only 10 km away from the town. Onesteel is reving up its operations through all the ore trucks on the road and we sit on a main national highway. Other emergency services to us are 60 km, 85km and 75 km away. Pip we only have a 14 but it does all the thing that we need it to do. The RC wanted the captain to organise the meetings. I think the Admin Officer doing the stuff on getting some of the missing in action members off the books.
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short of a mining company moving in 20 km away, and setting up in the town
A gold mine is being planed for the area which is only 10 km away from the town. Onesteel is reving up its operations through all the ore trucks on the road and we sit on a main national highway. Other emergency services to us are 60 km, 85km and 75 km away. Pip we only have a 14 but it does all the thing that we need it to do. The RC wanted the captain to organise the meetings. I think the Admin Officer doing the stuff on getting some of the missing in action members off the books.
Some where north of Whyalla im guessing? .. Who other than Glendamboo have only a 14?
How serious re the crewing issues? How many would you get to say.. an RCR call, both day and night?
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Some where north of Whyalla im guessing? .. Who other than Glendamboo have only a 14?
doubt it is Glendambo, they are 120km to Woomera, which is the next closest (I think).
Possibly it's Iron Knob? Anyway like Pip said, there is a process to follow. Surely your group officer is aware of all this? The RC should be offering to help not close you down. Has your captain contacted the regional volunteer support officer?
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I am pretty sure I know where you are from, but tell the region to help you, its up to the Regional Commander to ensure his region is providing a service. To many brigades get left to their own devices, which is bollocks. Put your hands up and say, Help us.
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Some where north of Whyalla im guessing? .. Who other than Glendamboo have only a 14?
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doubt it is Glendambo, they are 120km to Woomera, which is the next closest (I think).
Possibly it's Iron Knob? Anyway like Pip said, there is a process to follow. Surely your group officer is aware of all this? The RC should be offering to help not close you down. Has your captain contacted the regional volunteer support officer?
I agree its not Glendambo, but am unsure who else has only a sole 14 appliance.. ?
-Not sure if they have group officers either.. Believe its a bit different for some of the brigades in the far north, running directly under Region 4 - (Those in the old Roxby Group are now all sole brigades under the Region)..
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what the? this brigade we are talking about has a dedicated crew of voluntary members who put their families/work and day to day life on hold to service the local community & local area not to mention putting their own lives at risk to help in emergencies yes, we all agree response times are a factor but a slow response is better than none at all. We know that shutting brigades down will only put pressure on other resources else where. What will their response time be like if they have to travel longer distances to attend emergencies? The brigade has a rich history of over twenty years, it would be a shame to see the doors shut and capable members ousted for the sake of beauracratic processes, there must be another solution.
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It's obviously Iron Knob.
Something I've heard recently is the Whyalla City Council have been making noises about moving Iron Knob CFS into Whyalla to provide services outside the Whyalla City Limits. Their view is that the Whyalla City is left under protected when the MFS are attending incidents outside the City Limits.
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Does not matter who the brigade is what right does the R/C have to just show up?? Was the group officer contacted that he was coming or did he just show up.If a brigade cant get a full quota at a meeting you do the best you can,with rural towns now feeling the loss of firefighter to well paid mining jobs then CFS need to look at better support for these brigades rather than just rock up and say what they feel like without any CONSULTATION.......... I say guys fight for your right to save your appliances and the brigade from closing.
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It's obviously Iron Knob.
Something I've heard recently is the Whyalla City Council have been making noises about moving Iron Knob CFS into Whyalla to provide services outside the Whyalla City Limits. Their view is that the Whyalla City is left under protected when the MFS are attending incidents outside the City Limits.
That is a strange concept. Whyalla MFS are set up so that they can cover the area if one appliance leaves the district. Also Port Augusta or Pirie sometimes do change of quarters to Whyalla. Would make more sense to form a Whyalla CFS for the district than move the Iron Knob brigade. Its not really up to councils nowadays anyway as they dont provide any funding towards the fire service.
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"this brigade we are talking about has a dedicated crew of voluntary members who put their families/work and day to day life on hold to service the local community & local area not to mention putting their own lives at risk to help in emergencies yes, we all agree response times are a factor but a slow response is better than none at all. We know that shutting brigades down will only put pressure on other resources else where. What will their response time be like if they have to travel longer distances to attend emergencies? The brigade has a rich history of over twenty years, it would be a shame to see the doors shut and capable members ousted for the sake of bureaucratic processes, there must be another solution.
I sole heartily agree with you why73 your sediments expressed show that you yourself and the rest of your members (and I assume that I know the brigade like every one else :-P) have done most probably a stirling job at maintaining morale and motivation. Being from a rural brigade myself I feel that my paid work need to come second to my cfs role as more is expected in a the world of the number and paper crunchers. If you read the original post of nomandsland firefighter has the cfs become a real eastate agent where location location and location is more important than the volunteer who in this case is simple a disposable item when it has outlive its usefulness. I say stand up fight :x . Was a group officer involved and if so what did he say or do or are you still waiting for his reaction.
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Sounds like an RC has gone beyond his duty of care to the brigade. :-o
I suggest that you contact your Group Officer and arrange a meeting asap to discuss why he rocked up unannounced,and put the brigade in the picture about their intentions,and also what prompted this action.I would also be letting the VFBA know about this as well.
Dont just rollover and play dead on this guys :?
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The regional commander has every right to show up, he is the regional commander.
Sometimes we forget that we are a fire brigade led by senior staff. We aren't 430 seperate fire brigades, as much as some people like to think.
Having said that, try your best to keep going, otherwise there isn't much out there. If Whyalla council is so worried then how about they approach the MFS with their concerns, its not up to CFS to worry about fire protection in the Whyalla district.
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Was a group officer involved and if so what did he say or do or are you still waiting for his reaction.
The group officer was present and did not offer any comment on the night. I'll pass on the stuff about whyalla council to the captain to see if he is able to dig up up anything. I spoke to the admin officer last night and who said that on the weekend a door knocking campaign will done to recruit members and support for the Brigade. I think at training we will be having a bit of talk about where we will be heading and what we will be doing. Why73 your right about a responce some form of responce is better than none and in some instance our responce times have not been the best but other times we have got there before the MFS in whyalla.
We have spent the last 18 months struggling for everything (you name it we most probably don't have it) and now I can see why they made life so difficult for us they just don't want us.
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Perhaps to put some of this in perspective, there are many brigades around the state - some in large towns / areas of high population, some in small towns etc who cannot raise a crew during traditional working hours, or have a very slow response time... nomansland, your brigade is not alone in that - and these are brigades who have 30 + active members, and still struggle.....
It sounds like your brigade is trying hard to do address the issues you have, rather than expect someone else to do it for you - so you obviously have a bunch of people who are keen to do something.
Although not quite in the same postion as your brigade, some years ago, my brigade had crewing issues...6 regular attendees, 15 or 20 minutes to get a crew going for anything, no extras for relief crews....you get the picture.
We changed a few things in the brigade (like vote the old Captain out) then set about recruiting....we door knocked every house in the district, delivered a leaflet about our brigade, and invited people to an open day...
At the Open day, they got a free BBQ, had a chance to squirt water from the hoses, have a look at the equipment, had a demo on putting out a stove fire using a fire blanket, and generally informed people about the CFS.
We got one Cadet out of that day, but got around 6 people in the following few months, as a result of our contact with them.
Have you contacted your VSO? You might be able to get some assistance from him, in the form of leaflets (or at least get them photocopied) - or other ideas.
There are resources out there that might be able to assist - it's a matter of finding them......
If you need any photos of CFS, for use in a display, let me know - I can supply some for you (that goes for anyone who wants some suitable photos of CFS for display purposes)
Pip
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i don't think our RC wants the brigade to stay open why not try region 6 they may have a need for a extra 14 appliance
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There ia alot of work that has to be done before a brigade is asked/forced to close and one of these is a public meeting to seek the support of the local community about the future of the brigade. Keep your head up and get the VFBA behind you. Mind you i think tonight at midnight the vfba is no longer as their new name comes into force??>
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i don't think our RC wants the brigade to stay open why not try region 6 they may have a need for a extra 14 appliance
It shouldn't be up to the Regional Commander to determine....it should be up to the community.
Do they want a fire service in their town / district? If they do, then they must do something about it - eg show their support by joining, or contributing to the brigade.
If they don't care / don't want a service, is there any point in continuing? Sometimes the local brigade (or the Regional Commander or the CFS in general) just have to make the community see that the service is there, and should be supported, and maintained.
On the other hand, the Regional Commander (and I don't specifically refer to this case) has to look at the big picture. Should brigades who constantly cannot meet the set criteria - eg for number of members, training levels, responses etc simply be allowed to continue as is - money & assets invested in an area, just to make someone feel good? (And I don't suggest this is the case here - just typing / speaking generally)
Surely the person in charge of any organisation should be looking at the groups & brigade in the area - how well are they working, are they actually working , do they have the right resources, do they need different resources (eg swap a 34 for a 14), does the community actually support the brigade - if not, why not, and how can the Region assist in getting that brigade up to the accepted standard ?
I suspect that right around the state, there are many rural brigades, in particular, who are facing a similar situation to what has been discussed in this topic - we can voice our disgust about it, perhaps paint the RC / CFS HQ as the bad guys etc, but the RC has a job to do, and we should at least respect that the RC is looking into the issues - even though we may disagree with how that is occurring (and again, I don't know anything of the situation other than discussed here, so there may be other things occurring that we are not aware of)
Having said all of that, the brigade discussed here is keen to continue, and there are things occurring (eg a new mine going in) which may improve things in the future with potentially more people moving into the district - so there is still hope.
nomansland, and other members of the brigade - keep trying - work to increase the support of the community, map out, as a brigade, what you want to achieve, and what you think you can realistically achieve, utilise the resources that are out there, to assist (eg your Group, the VSO, the BSO, the VFBA, other brigades / Groups, the CFS Promotions Unit, to help you achieve that
Good luck
Pip
PS Willing to help if I can :-D
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That is a strange concept. Whyalla MFS are set up so that they can cover the area if one appliance leaves the district. Also Port Augusta or Pirie sometimes do change of quarters to Whyalla. Would make more sense to form a Whyalla CFS for the district than move the Iron Knob brigade. Its not really up to councils nowadays anyway as they dont provide any funding towards the fire service.
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You're right in saying the councils don't contribute funding. They are however are significant lobby group and stakeholder and their views are listened to.
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I think PIP,has the right idea,start knocking on doors in your area,or call a public meeting to see if the local community is going to support you in anyway you may find there are people out there who want to join but for some reason have not.. Funny thing I was at a meeting (cfs) other night and iron knob brigade came up in that meeting as being the only brigade in that region to attend the regional training day one year,,,,,,,
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Pip, I spoke to the captain last night who spent some time doing the fathers days thing. Both the captain and another member of the Brigade spent most of the weekend doing some door knocking for the Brigade yes some quarters of the community support the Brigade and were willing to join (police check pending)others said they loved to but the mind was willing but the body was not. Your right about the RC but if you are going to be the bearer of bad news then the approach to it needs to be right. This also includes maybe incorporating some of the tools that can be used for assisting the Brigade to develop. Considering the Admin Officer has taken the entire ordeal personally since they have but a lot of work into the Brigade and has taken this as a real slap in the face.
Ports have looked at the Whyalla aspect before but we have been told that can't be done because it is a MFS area. It is something that needs to be revisited again I also believe that all options should be looked at as no one solution fits all problems.
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The troubles in IK CFS are not the only issues the community faces, as the town itself is experiencing a bit of a culture change and there are certain persons that have moved into the town in recent years that have ran into trouble in other areas (not implying all new people!) and the recent "closure" of the police station has not helped. There are those that no doubt would aprove of this, but then they are unlikely to pass a police check and would not be a lot of help to brigade!!!!!! Why not try some of the exmembers? most of them still carry certain endorsments that would make it a lot easier to revitalise the brigade and are not going to give the head pains as a certain "handmitten" that was rather colourfull
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oldskool, you write in a manner that suggests you are familiar with the Brigade / town. I think a brigade like Iron Knob need not just come to the conclusion that all those who are new in town are running from trouble. I can a sure that yes those ex-members have been approached. The issue for the Brigade is not it self but the community has let the Brigade down in most parts. To paraphrase Pip they all suppport it but don't actually join then who do they have to blame. If the problems in the brigade aren't fixed first it is no use joining up new members to the Brigade.
From looking at the ABS figures for Iron Knob the population has declined by nearly 40% but the mean age of the town is in its late 60's. If the division in the brigade maybe caused by not allowing succession planning to occur this may not be the case here but it be an issue that could be faced within the CFS
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you write in a manner that suggests you are familiar with the Brigade / town
I agree.......
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I agree with your responce partly in that the age of the townspeople is not getting any younger and i am sure Iron Knob is not the only brigade that has people who turn up for a few meets then are never seen again! When is your AGM? Try an open day again when this is happening and see who turns up. One must also realise that the town may be divided somewhat over what direction it is going and could take some time to sort, the increase in mining activity in the near future may change this as well.
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word around the traps is that the timing of the AGM is no longer an issue for the Iron Knob Brigade as Region is taking on this responsibility. What will be occurring is a public meeting with one single question being asked which is does Iron Knob still require a CFS Brigade?
If someone turns up for a few training nights and is no longer seen a follow up phone call does not go astray as it can provide a valuable source of feeback for recruiting. Never overlook those that don't stay oldskool as one can not assume much by people actions unless you talk to them. As with the ABS figure they can only be used as guide and would be one of the tools that governments use for planning future infrastructure needs and service delivery in parts of the state.
Thew idea of an open day maybe good but it needs to be planned and timing is everything for raising the profile of a SA CFS Brigade.
With regards to the mining activity one must look deeper than just the what is happening by action and who is driving around. Find out oldskool what they are mining and what type of processing will be required. As labour for the mining maybe flown and or bused in from other areas and that labour force may be based in the town. Look at Roxby they bus them from Pt Augusta and fly them from Adelaide to the mine.
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The idea of am open day at an agm is not to make it too big, but to keep the doors open for any possible recruits as any help would be better than none. If an AGM were to be held on a weekend day then the doors could be opened mid morning and people could have a look around and meet any group/region guests that may be there along with brigade members. It would not be the first time a small country brigade has got down to a low membership then recruited more, being carefull not to recruit any odballs that wait until the brigade officers are not looking and go joyriding in the truck and other mischief
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oldskool maybe the odd balls that you refer to are not that odd considering what has been through the door at Iron Knob. You shouldn't forget that saying about the kettle calling the pot black which maybe the case here. You don't need to worry about the AGM as malleefire already said that it is in the hands of region and, at this stage the no open day will occur but certainly a public meeting. Maybe it is time for some members of the Iron Knob community to take the time and reflect and get past some of the divisions that have been created. As you know some people in the community like to enforce their will on others while not allowing the baton to be past on to the next generation or discriminate against those that don't fit the mold.
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nomansland firefighter I certainly agree with your sediment about some of the issues that have arose but I sometimes get the feeling that those that hover from a far and make comment have not looked at the situation in a logical and clear head. The problems in the Brigade maybe a reflection of the community where the changing of the guard is not about the personalities involved but more about the fear of letting go of someting that is perceived. Perception, Oldskool is something you need to be careful as you have perceived some members of the community as odd balls. Nomansland firefighter or Oldskool those that stir the pot in the Brigade has it ever been conceived that it is time to allow a new generation to have a go at running the Brigade or is this a battle for all or nonting for the community i.e. no brigade is better than allowing some one else to run it.
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By the sounds of it, at least 2 of you are from the said brigade, with a couple having some pretty serious knowledge of the area (which tells me you aren't far away)... How bout you pool your resources together and try and improve things at brigade level.. Spend the time being pro-active and hopefully things will improve!
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I think somebody has worked out who I may be! The idea of opening the door to potential members I hope is understood to be for the benefit of brigade. The reference to oddballs is to those in the past who gave both yourself and I some worries ( one learns after they have signed on what they are realy like) and was not intended towards current members.
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I guess we really nenver know how good a new member will or won't be till sometime later into their service with in any service or community group.. If they pass the police check and you still find they are not that switched on then you have obtions. As for the matter of the region wishing to close you I have spoken to a few people about this and they all say the same thing....CFS can not just rock up and say where going to close you....they have to call a few meetings and one is a public where the town is invited to show its support of the service.
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Most of the intrest in the subject " sink or swim and the future of some brigades " has been that of increasing the local membership. The whyalla based members have always been a welcome part of the brigade in my veiw and are dedicated despite being 55klms away. One has pesonally been hampered somewhat by a matter not related to brigade running and will likely sort itself given time ( the wheels of govenement turn slow) as the henious ones are are old foe and not cfs members. The offer is only of assistance.
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The whyalla based members have always been a welcome part of the brigade in my veiw and are dedicated despite being 55klms away. One has pesonally been hampered somewhat by a matter not related to brigade running and will likely sort itself given time ( the wheels of govenement turn slow) as the henious ones are are old foe and not cfs members. The offer is only of assistance.
The important issue at hand is not where they live but the responce time of the Brigade. A person who lives in whyalla and is available during the day is just as available as person who lives in Iron Knob but works at either Port Augusta or Wallah and is able to leave work. Distance and availability are factors that need to go hand in hand not as a mechanism where the inference of discrimination could occur. As you are aware from last year where the Brigade was warned that if it cannot work together then the service at Iron Knob will be reviewed one could infer that the process that the Brigades is going through is that of having the service delivery reviewed with some possible action that the Brigade / community can choose from.
The second part of your post is not all that clear
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If the problem is mainly change the leader then do it and for the next two years the brigade and the towns people will see a change in the brigade or they will see the brigade fall apart all together and close.... if young people want to have a go at running a brigade let them ,but they also need to remember there is more to just wearing a color helmet at a job,there is a lot of behind the scene work/meetings and so on.... I say give them ago but also draw on those members who have been there for years....They will only fix or stuff the brigade up......
I think there is more to this problem and one that if your going to get on here and talk about it then give's us all the full story and not just part of that story... Bugger did I just say that.....
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Rescue5271 the full story is still unfolding as information is never coming from a direct source but passed onto those who are directly involved through other members of the community. The change in leader occurred but those that have been involved in the past have not shown a lot of support for the Brigade. When they took a step back from the brigade the issues that the brigade now faces seems to have escalated. The behind the scenes aspect that you refer is something that was known by those that stepped up and who are managing the brigade presently. The direction that the brigade is now taking is one that will be more positive for the community as a whole.
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The part of the post is only giving an indication to current membership that an exmembers departure was influenced by another matter outside the brigade and not based wholly on any conflict. Part of other posts were clues to identity, and the rest were more toward brigade survival. Other issues are up to brigade and town to sort
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Time this one was locked and left to the brigade/group/region to fix/repair......
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rescue5271 your right it is time to let this one go and for the sake of the cfs someone do something about fixing the problem. this thread has become our own very own version of a soap opera.
Oldskool I have followed this thread as a guess from day 1 but your posts are a riddle so I take it your an ex member (from your posts I can see why!). If you are part of the trouble then get overself I am not being offensive but it has to be said that wingers are a part of life but if you can't handle changes in life then get some help and let those their do their work. This goes for all those other that are involved like malleefire and nomansland firefighter. If your not willing to be a part of the future guys then take up a new hobby. If you guys want to be a part of the solution then get on with it.
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Last night at our AGM the Regional Commander turn up considering we don't get regional officers at our AGM unless invited. The captain, and the other officer from the look on their faces said concern and panic as this was an out of the blue. We did not have quorum and as a consequence we were told unofficially that we will be going down the path of having our operations suspended. His reason for taking this action was their are not enough volunteers living in the town and that our responce time were not up to scratch. What do they expect when you just cant get ppe, pagers or anything. What do they expect from small rural towns where the jobs are 60 km away yes their will be a delay if your employer will allow you to go. Where do you find volunteers when the age of the townpeople is hitting it mid 70's.
With the rant now over how well does this sit with concepts of project sherpa more importantly no advice was given in how to rectify the problem i.e. who to speak to or what tools would be available. How value do you think we now feel in the cfs as we are all keen to carry on. The captain is speaking to the members and what I feel is that their is more of resolve now to maintain brigade as we all still want to be members.
i think that is very sad to hear as there is alot of stations with the same problems but i think that it is disgusting to hear that they will probably shut you down is there another station to back you up in this time of need
If their group is like ours even backup brigades ar in the same boat.