SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: 6739264 on December 17, 2007, 10:58:10 AM
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With rumours that the CFS are finally going to build a real fire appliance for Burnside, should they also look at introducing Aerial Appliances to areas that need them, or should this remain the domain of SAMFS?
An area like Mt. Barker for example, that has recently had a large number of housing developments, a very large commercial shopping complex built, and multiple long standing industrial complexes could most certainly do with Aerial Appliance.
Nothing like a Bronto, that can't work stand alone, but something like an MFS Skyjet, that can act as both a normal Pumper with urban stowage and a Aerial when needed. It would allow an area like Mt. Barker to have two Pumpers, one with rescue stowage, one with just urban firefighting stowage.
The flip side is, what to do about training, driving, license requirements etc. etc. It would be a large cost outlay for the CFS. Would it be better to just wait for the MFS to build a station in the area? Or should the CFS take a stand and attempt to try and deliver best service it can to the community with state of the art equipment?
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Doesn't this go against your other arguments in other posts (duplication) :wink:
In all seriousness if the risk is there now, then it needs to happen now.
cheers
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Doesn't this go against your other arguments in other posts (duplication) :wink:
In all seriousness if the risk is there now, then it needs to happen now.
cheers
Never fear, SAFECOM is here! No such thing as duplication! :-P
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the risk/need is definitely there, however i cant imagine CFS actually doing it.... makes too much sense.
but there are a lot of areas that definitely need it, for instance were starting to see 3 storey houses popping up in our area, as well as the heavily commercial areas.... and places like barker & stirling(yes we know, the age old MFS are coming) as well as some country areas (Naracoorte??) could probly use them as well.
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It will only be a matter of time before CFS move in the CFA direction and have retained staff/volunteer and aerial appliances.Skyjets would be the way to go.
The demographics will dictate that and as we all know SAFECOM is coming so we will all end up as one service eventually. :roll:
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Safecom will probably have a town like Mt Barker have a single brigade with a Skyjet, Rescue, 34, Salvage. Combining the Members of two services, to make a 50+ member brigade. With a paid staff or two to keep track of operations/admin/finance etc.
Bring it on, for the first time im happy about this sort of "Cost Saving" as it opens up more funds for other area's.
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Let the MFS keep doing it......
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So blinky if it was determined that an aeriel appliance was required for naracoorte you would support the MFS reopening a station?
It would be nice to say just let the MFS do it but unfortunately thats not always a feasible option
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It will only be a matter of time before CFS move in the CFA direction and have retained staff/volunteer and aerial appliances.Skyjets would be the way to go.
"There will only ever be one paid fire service in South Australia"
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Safecom will probably have a town like Mt Barker have a single brigade with a Skyjet, Rescue, 34, Salvage.
A Rescue AND a Salvage hey?
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Consider an area like the Barossa, hefty investment in huge infrastructure. Multi Storey buildings and extreme risk.
The nearest sky jet is at Oakden probably a solid forty minute drive to Nuri even with the assistance of green lights all the way. Surely a brigade like Tanunda, Nuri, Lyndoch should have appliances proportionate to the risk covered.
The risk should determine the appliances in stations not if the service providers are paid a wage or not. 8-)
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How about getting some decently equipped pumpers first. Amazing what you can do with a monitor.
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Agree Pumpers, monitors and skyjets..... :wink:
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The remotely operated monitors on the newer CFA pumpers are pretty handy.
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No need for such an applinace down here in Naracoorte,the town mains could not support the flow rate that it would need to work.MFS are only an hour away if we need the sky jet..MFS would never reopen here as the FREE volunteer service does a good job.....
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why skyjet as opposed to teleboom etc?
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you take what ever they have on offer..........
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yeh...and it would more than likely be a recycled skyjet on a new chassis :|
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why skyjet as opposed to teleboom etc?
Skyjet/Telesquirt/Teleboom/Nova Quintech - same general idea, different names.
Shall I be more exact and suggest any appliance that is a stand alone pumper, that has a Telescopic Boom attached to the roof?
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It is good to look at these sorts of appliances but no offence to keep up the training and having competent operators of a skyjet would not work in the cfs, cfs do not do enough calls to maintain skills on operators and it would put more pressure on volunteers to regularly train and operate the appliance at jobs.
Mt Gambier have a skyjet to cover the southeast, barossa if anyone was to get a skyjet it would be the retained crew at tanunda, north there are many retained station that could station a skyjet, west coast could go to lincoln or whyalla and a skyjet to mt barker would not take long at all.
CFS need to invest in putting monitors on all their pumpers, the need for a skyjet needs to be looked at, do you want this appliance for rescue capabilities or just firefighting?? what i mean is are you using it for a block of flats or housing or just a few big factories/ shops you may have in your area.
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Mt Gambier have a skyjet to cover the southeast, barossa if anyone was to get a skyjet it would be the retained crew at tanunda, north there are many retained station that could station a skyjet, west coast could go to lincoln or whyalla and a skyjet to mt barker would not take long at all.
There is a Skyjet going to Port Lincoln soon, this is mainly due to the new multi storey hotel development on the foreshore.
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No need for such an applinace down here in Naracoorte,the town mains could not support the flow rate that it would need to work.MFS are only an hour away if we need the sky jet..MFS would never reopen here as the FREE volunteer service does a good job.....
I love that: "only an hour away" (assuming not already busy I presume), so good for overhaul / mopping up then!
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Just use the monitor on our pumper..............
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It is good to look at these sorts of appliances but no offence to keep up the training and having competent operators of a skyjet would not work in the cfs, cfs do not do enough calls to maintain skills on operators and it would put more pressure on volunteers to regularly train and operate the appliance at jobs.
the brigades with risks worthy of these sorts of appliances do more jobs than most (if not all??) the retained stations you mention.
it may suprise you but most CFS brigades train weekly, perform upskills, and attend other training courses.... much the same as MFS retainees.
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Monitors are a great idea, just a little difficult to direct it down onto the roof space of a large building... :wink:
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Mack thankyou for pointing out the obvious, i am well aware of when cfs brigades train and how many calls they do.You also have to look at the locations of the brigades that do the calls. Mount Barker is the brigade doing a lot of calls that is a bit of a drive from Adelaide, as for you morphett vales, seaford, salisbury, dalkeith, happy valley they are all surrounded by MFS specialist appliances.
My comments in regards to MFS retained firefighters getting the skyjets is because they have the support of their service to provide aerial appliance training and due to them already having bronto and skyjet appliance can run courses easier. CFS taking on these rolls would not work, CFS couldn't even take on USAR let alone go into aerial appliances.
As a few have said utilise monitors if you have them and if their is no risk to life utilise ground monitors, 64mm/50mm lines and hose reels and keep yourself safe.
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you dont use Skyjets etc at house fires though...
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Mack thankyou for pointing out the obvious
no problems ;)
the brigades you list are not particularly close to aerial appliances, when you actually consider where these MFS resources are stationed.
USAR? why would we want to take over an SES job ;)
anyway, CFS areas that could benefit from them, but as i previously stated, i cant imagine it ever happening.
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Not take over an SES job? Shock horror :-D
Why not? (joking of course!)
And what you say about CFS vs Retained MFS is quite correct - there is not much difference. And once you have the equipment then training and refresher training won't be an issue. As I said before if the risk is there then the equipment should be available. We have large wineries here with distilleries as well & large factories with sandwich panel inner walls (no sprinklers) so the ability to go up and over walls including large concrete tanks would be a bonus.
Good luck with your ideas on aerial appliances - I think you need them.
cheers
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you dont use Skyjets etc at house fires though...
Why not the MFS do.
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We had a pay staffer say that we should not be on the roof trying to put out a chimney fire,I said if that is the case CFS better place a filtered big order for skyjet's......
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Not take over an SES job? Shock horror :-D
Why not? (joking of course!)
And what you say about CFS vs Retained MFS is quite correct - there is not much difference. And once you have the equipment then training and refresher training won't be an issue. As I said before if the risk is there then the equipment should be available. We have large wineries here with distilleries as well & large factories with sandwich panel inner walls (no sprinklers) so the ability to go up and over walls including large concrete tanks would be a bonus.
Good luck with your ideas on aerial appliances - I think you need them.
cheers
Yes it is strange that one of the Riverland MFS brigades dont have a skyjet. A lot of large buildings in that area. Same with Victor MFS & Maybe even Murray Bridge MFS.
Realistically i can only think of three areas that may require an aerial appliance within CFS areas. That would be Mt Barker, Barossa somewhere (Nuri?) & Millicent.
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No need at Millicent,MFS are only 20 mins away and the only good size structure is Kimberly clarke,You have to keep in mind that if you start to have aerials you also have to have a pumper to be able to supply the flow rate and you also need to have good town water supply or tanks/fire pumps at these risk sites....
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you dont use Skyjets etc at house fires though...
Why not? Multiple level buildings are bread and butter for aerials.
No need at Millicent,MFS are only 20 mins away and the only good size structure is Kimberly clarke,You have to keep in mind that if you start to have aerials you also have to have a pumper to be able to supply the flow rate and you also need to have good town water supply or tanks/fire pumps at these risk sites....
Why do you need another pumper? The whole point I made at the start of this thread was *not* a Bronto or Ladder style appliance that requires another pump to pump into it. A Skyjet/Telesuirt etc etc, style appliance has its own pump, seats more than a crew of 2 and has a full urban stowage, some also haveing Hazmat and RCR stowage.
This type of appliance is the same as any other pump, it just has a telescopic ladder and waterway built on top. It can operate independent of other appliances. That was the point, that if certain CFS areas needed an aerial, this would be the way to go, as you don't need to have a second truck there to make it useful.
I think you would find that most of the areas that would require coverage by an aerial appliance would generally have decent water supply, enough at least for the initial attack. If there are issues, then it just turns into a case of long distance relay pumping.
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well may be you should come and do some hydrany flow testing and you will see that there are areas that would not support water for punper let alone a aerial.Mind you with the new BWC for gambier group should not be a problem. Dont get me wrong I can see a need in some areas but look outside the whole picture use what you have at hand......
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well may be you should come and do some hydrany flow testing and you will see that there are areas that would not support water for punper let alone a aerial.Mind you with the new BWC for gambier group should not be a problem. Dont get me wrong I can see a need in some areas but look outside the whole picture use what you have at hand......
Look outside the whole picture? Mate there are only couple of places that could use a CFS crewed Aerial appliance, and those areas have reasonably good mains supply. Most industrial complexes have much larger mains and flow pressures that the average suburban street.
If you are not getting the pressure or flow you desire, I hope to god you are running multiple lines into your pump, or relay pumping from an appropriate water source.
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The whole reason for not using an aerial applaince at a house fire is to minimise the damage. Even house fires in 2 storey buildings you dont really need them. No good causing more water damage than the filtered fire does. Hence why we use generally use HP lines at house fires not 64mm hose that blasts the crap out of everything. If the house is practically a parking lot anyway there obviously not much you can do regardless.
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Uniden, we take a 'rescue' truck to every vehicle accident, but dont necessarily use rescue gear... a skyjet, like those in service with SAMFS at the moment, can also be used simply as a pump.
The boom is just one of the perks of that apparatus.
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The whole reason for not using an aerial applaince at a house fire is to minimise the damage. Even house fires in 2 storey buildings you dont really need them. No good causing more water damage than the filtered fire does. Hence why we use generally use HP lines at house fires not 64mm hose that blasts the crap out of everything. If the house is practically a parking lot anyway there obviously not much you can do regardless.
It all depends. There is no clear cut answer as to when to use aerials or when not to. The only suggestion I made in the initial post was that in certain areas with large commercial and industrial assets, like Mt. Barker, an aerial would be a very useful appliance. As mack suggested, there is nothing that forces you to use the boom and elevated waterway EVERY time. Its merely another tool that allows you the freedom to use it if you need to.
...and who is this 'we' that uses HP lines for the majority of your House fire work? What ever happened to the good old 38mm?
Firefighter Safety > Water Damage.
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I meant you dont usually use the boom part of the skyjet at house fires. Of course you can use the appliance as a pumper. Most of the house fires I have been to, HP lines were adequate. Obviously larger hoses are used sometimes depending on the situation.
Of course some fire appliances have 90 metre hose reels. Do yours??
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Not take over an SES job? Shock horror :-D
Why not? (joking of course!)
And what you say about CFS vs Retained MFS is quite correct - there is not much difference. And once you have the equipment then training and refresher training won't be an issue. As I said before if the risk is there then the equipment should be available. We have large wineries here with distilleries as well & large factories with sandwich panel inner walls (no sprinklers) so the ability to go up and over walls including large concrete tanks would be a bonus.
Good luck with your ideas on aerial appliances - I think you need them.
cheers
Yes it is strange that one of the Riverland MFS brigades dont have a skyjet. A lot of large buildings in that area. Same with Victor MFS & Maybe even Murray Bridge MFS.
Realistically i can only think of three areas that may require an aerial appliance within CFS areas. That would be Mt Barker, Barossa somewhere (Nuri?) & Millicent.
When I have been to the Riverland I have not see any use for a skyjet.
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Renmark MFS will need one with that new shopping centre going up.....
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thats no bigger than the one at Berri
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When I was in Mildura this year I was talking to a CFA staffer and he was saying that if they needed an aerial appliance it would be faster for it to come from SAMFS...If there is a need for one of these in the county then lets look at the fast growth area's,which will have their own risk's in that area.In the end its up to SAFECOM and the fire service to say they have a need....
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not trying to upset anyone but has anyone on this forum actually used a skyjet/telesquirt/teleboom for any type of incident???
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Yes, why do you ask?
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Yep, count me in too! :-D
I have used a Skyjet at lots of varied jobs, and they are very versatile due to the fact they can perform many more roles than just a typical aerial monitor/ladder.
You have to think outside the square sometimes!!(and work within appliances capabilities)
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I ride on a skyjet every second shift rotation at my work. As anything else they are a tool for fire suppression. Valuable in industrial areas for aerial attack as well as the possibility of using the boom to access higher levels of structures as a ladder. They dont solve every problem at a job.
They are no harder to use than any other appliance, you just have to spend time getting familiar with it and know the appliances limitations.
I guess CFS has not got them as they can be a very expensive bit of kit to purchase, depending on what applications you have on it.
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Have used years ago in CFA they have there place....
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Just interested the few people that said yes were not the people who were giving the opinions and facts on the forum. :-D
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Nice Big Bronto!
You know whats it's like opinions are like a@$holes, everyboby's got one!
Even without using aerial appliances at jobs :evil:
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It is good to look at these sorts of appliances but no offence to keep up the training and having competent operators of a skyjet would not work in the cfs, cfs do not do enough calls to maintain skills on operators and it would put more pressure on volunteers to regularly train and operate the appliance at jobs.
Mt Gambier have a skyjet to cover the southeast, barossa if anyone was to get a skyjet it would be the retained crew at tanunda, north there are many retained station that could station a skyjet, west coast could go to lincoln or whyalla and a skyjet to mt barker would not take long at all.
CFS need to invest in putting monitors on all their pumpers, the need for a skyjet needs to be looked at, do you want this appliance for rescue capabilities or just firefighting?? what i mean is are you using it for a block of flats or housing or just a few big factories/ shops you may have in your area.
You tool. So you are saying Tanunda retained firies would be more likely to get a skyjet because they would do more training and have more calls to maintain skills??????
Tanunda MFS do less than 15 working jobs a year and struggle to get members. The only reason they would get one would be if the UFU / powers that be wanted to put one there for some political reason.
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Not take over an SES job? Shock horror :-D
Why not? (joking of course!)
And what you say about CFS vs Retained MFS is quite correct - there is not much difference. And once you have the equipment then training and refresher training won't be an issue. As I said before if the risk is there then the equipment should be available. We have large wineries here with distilleries as well & large factories with sandwich panel inner walls (no sprinklers) so the ability to go up and over walls including large concrete tanks would be a bonus.
Good luck with your ideas on aerial appliances - I think you need them.
cheers
Yes it is strange that one of the Riverland MFS brigades don't have a skyjet. A lot of large buildings in that area. Same with Victor MFS & Maybe even Murray Bridge MFS.
Realistically i can only think of three areas that may require an aerial appliance within CFS areas. That would be Mt Barker, Barossa somewhere (Nuri?) & Millicent.
When I have been to the Riverland I have not see any use for a skyjet.
Well Backburn here is a quote from a local SAMFS retained person "if this place ever went up we would park on the road & pump heaps of water in, we wouldn't go in there"
Wouldn't something that provides water from height (be able to fire water over outer concrete walls) be an advantage?
Big Bronto you don't need to be a guru to work out what an aerial is and what they can do, to see them in operation gives some idea of its capabilities.
And your comments on SAMFS retained are wide of the mark, they suffer the same issues as CFS i.e. lack of numbers, training etc, so I don't know why they would be chosen over CFS.
As I said before I think its a great idea & he is some history for you:
When Berri Estates went up years ago, there wasn't enough resources here. In fact appliances were bought in from Adelaide. So there is definitely a risk.
Anyway I think thats all from a mere rescuer on a fire topic :wink:
cheers
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Evac most cfs brigade would be lucky to do 15 working jobs a year in their primary area.
What i am saying is MFS have the training and already have the resources to maintain aerials appliances. You can't just smack one in the cfs and say best of luck to you. If the government where serious about it they would stick an aerial appliance at all the MFS urban out stations and turn the skyjet out to any confirmed fire or 2nd alarm in the country areas.
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When you say "Country Areas" what do you mean?
In my area, these sorts of appliances are pretty much useless for two reasons :
Can't take them off the bitumen - so that rules out about half of my brigades area, and
Many (most?)of the driveways in the area are either too narrow, too over grown with trees, or have corners too tight to fit an aerial appliance (generally too tight for a 34, and a struggle with a 24)
Aerials may have their uses.....but certainly have major limitations in many (CFS) areas....
Pip
Pip
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If you can get a 34 in there, you would have no problems with a Jet.. - With the exception of the 2WD limitations..
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In my opinion Skyjets are lacking in the south coming from HQ,and north being Woodville,(or Oakden if they have it at the time)
There are big gaps, and also in response times should anyone need aerial assistance at a "going job". At least CFA and MFB have a decent compliment of telebooms and LP's.
Ideally Christie Downs or St Marys should have one, and also Elizabeth then you would have a good coverage, if an aerial appliance was needed urgently in CFS area as well.
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If you can get a 34 in there, you would have no problems with a Jet.. - With the exception of the 2WD limitations..
As I said, the bulk of driveways are too narrow / overgrown / etc for 34's....and a squeeze with 24's (there are number of them in my area, that the 24's cannot travel down let alone a 34)
The other dilemma is the lack of water...the Aerial would need to travel with a tanker in order for water to be provided....and then there would be two appliances on a narrow dirt road, blocking access for everyone else, let alone get these vehicles down a driveway...
Aerials certainly have their uses, and in many CFS areas, they may be very useful. In many other CFS areas, they are not, due to the limitations outlined above
Pip
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The other dilemma is the lack of water...the Aerial would need to travel with a tanker in order for water to be provided....and then there would be two appliances on a narrow dirt road, blocking access for everyone else, let alone get these vehicles down a driveway...
Wouldn't that be a problem with any pumper though?
I agree with the access problems, but I would hope the CFS would be using aerials primarily in built up and industrial areas, rather than country domestic areas...
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Pip, I would have thought that it would have been more than obvious that an area such as around your brigade is far from where you would expect a larger aerial appliance to operate.
As I said in my original post (and good god, I would hope people read it) There is only one town that I can readily think of, in CFS area, that could put forth a well supported argument for an aerial. That is Mt. Barker. Of course the area around Basket Range isn't suited to a larger appliance, and thats why it was never suggested that the area may require one.
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The post said "Country areas" not "Country towns"
Sorry if I am having some trouble reading between the lines
Pip
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Aerials certainly have their uses, and in many CFS areas, they may be very useful. In many other CFS areas, they are not, due to the limitations outlined above
Pip
People, the solution is staring us in the face.
Get an Ericsson Aircrane !!
No probs with driveways, no probs with finding water.
No probs with traffic or response times.
No probs with us dumb CFS vollies getting confused
about what exactly is an aerial appliance.
Strewth, CFS could even lend it to the Mets for their
factory fires. Since everything at those ends up
lying on the ground anyway, 9 tonnes of water from
100M every few minutes would -have- to help with that.
A couple of decent fires would even solve the algae
problem in the Torrens Lake.
Best of all, it would also stop the flow of those
stupid, stupid letters to the editor each fire season.
(At least until the suckers find out how much it costs
per hour to run.)
:-D
AJ
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That is an excellent idea AJ :-D
Your a funny guy
cheer
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nice
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Fantastic idea AJ... although in times of drought / low water levels, the Ericsson Aircrane has great difficulty in finding water deep enough to draught from...and hence goes straight to the ocean to draught (as it did on KI)..
I'm sure people won't mind 9000 litres of salt water direct on their gardens!! :evil:
Pip
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Wouldn't matter up here Pip :-D long way from the ocean but
& when its not fighting fires it could move pods around - lot more specky than a truck!
And you guys could set it up for RCR as well, then it could do everything :evil:
And think it would be a great CFS self promotion tool too. Your would have to put red and yellow checkers band on it though & the logo of course.
Hopefully we would get one too :wink:
cheers
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Here it is the Pod Chopper...haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvu_y_up58
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Now wouldn't that look great on the evening news :-D
You may need a couple of them - it would look better (think Apocolypse Now).
You could even lift appliances in (they used to air lift our Unimogs - bit rough on the suspension though).
As I said a fantastic idea, the public (media) would love it & who knows the other states might copy it! What a wonderful way to spend excess ESL funds :evil:
Beats an aerial appliance anytime.
cheers
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Now wouldn't that look great on the evening news :-D
You may need a couple of them - it would look better (think Apocolypse Now).
Ahhh, but it IS an aerial appliance. That's the point.
If we got two, then we could do one in orange & white chequer,
set up an RCR pod & hand all non-metro RCR over to the SES.
On to the important details...
It would need a Really Loud PA for "Ride of the Valkyries" to be
heard over the incredible racket they make. Strathfield's ought
to have something suitable ... I wonder who does 32Vdc -> 12Vdc
converters ?
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Are you guy's already on the New Years Eve jungle juice a sky crane bombing a structural or industrial incident, It wolud cause my damage than good now I've heard it all.
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Well the short answer is - YES
After all it is the silly season
And I think we have talked this one to death :wink:
Me thinks you treat things to seriously :-D
Have a good one - cheers
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Are you guy's already on the New Years Eve jungle juice
a sky crane bombing a structural or industrial incident,
It wolud cause my damage than good
now I've heard it all.
Oh no you haven't !!
Wanna hear our plan for combatting high-rise building fires ?
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You guys are crazy!!!!
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I do - does it involve abseiling? :-D
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Fireblade is the SAFF "Serious Business" Officer.
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Ah that explains it then, every organisation needs one :wink:
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I do - does it involve abseiling? :-D
Nope.
Figure to light the back-burn two stories below the fire floor,
and hope the wind don't change. Mostly worked ok on KI.
Just waiting for a CoQ to Wakefield so we can try it out. :-D
Of course if you wanted to get all sophisticated about it, there
is a water cannon version of the Skycrane. That might make Fireblade
a little happier.
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sounds great :wink:
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People, the solution is staring us in the face.
Get an Ericsson Aircrane !!
All Air Cranes need to be a good tool is a In Air Refueling system similar to military aircraft ;)
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For info an Erickson Aircrane has been used to do a drop on a house fire...I will locate the video link I saw it on for you....
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Skycrane and other aircraft have been used in the past to drop water on fires that are in/around houses have seen it before in NSW and in the states....
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SCK might be onto something, the skycrane actually comes with a cannon attachment the points out the front for use at high rise and other no wildfire jobs.
http://www.ericksonaircrane.com/images/EACalbum2/pages/Cannon.html
http://www.ericksonaircrane.com/images/EACalbum2/pages/CannonCU.html
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haha thats awesome...
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thanks they are great links awsome for sure :-o
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Consider an area like the Barossa, hefty investment in huge infrastructure. Multi Storey buildings and extreme risk.
The nearest sky jet is at Oakden probably a solid forty minute drive to Nuri even with the assistance of green lights all the way. Surely a brigade like Tanunda, Nuri, Lyndoch should have appliances proportionate to the risk covered.
The risk should determine the appliances in stations not if the service providers are paid a wage or not. 8-)
Does that mean all country towns with concrete wheat silos should get aerials, cool place orders for Owen, Hamley Bridge, Balaklava, Tarlee, Mallala & half of the Yorke Pennisula send them with our tankers
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Consider an area like the Barossa, hefty investment in huge infrastructure. Multi Storey buildings and extreme risk.
The nearest sky jet is at Oakden probably a solid forty minute drive to Nuri even with the assistance of green lights all the way. Surely a brigade like Tanunda, Nuri, Lyndoch should have appliances proportionate to the risk covered.
The risk should determine the appliances in stations not if the service providers are paid a wage or not. 8-)
Does that mean all country towns with concrete wheat silos should get aerials, cool place orders for Owen, Hamley Bridge, Balaklava, Tarlee, Mallala & half of the Yorke Pennisula send them with our tankers
Sarge you do need to get out more.
The Barossa has the highest rate of infrastructure development in the state. And has had so for the last 3 to 5 years. If you look at it realistically what is the long term economic loss to a community if a wheat silo smolders away and destroys it's self.... very little. When you assess a risk like those we are talking about (Not silos) the long term impact on the community from an infrastructure loss (and the following consequences.. employment etc) the size of Orlando's or Fosters storage and packaging facilities needs a great amount of consideration.
One then begs the question, is it upto the government to provide fire cover (eg aerial appliances and large pumpers to boost sprinkler systems etc)above the BCA or should the government provide the resources to ensure protection / rescue of life that may be threatened by an incident within one of these large infrastructures and leave the company to deal with the fire protection and damage minimisation. You do not have to look to far to see those companies that provide an emergency response team and equipment to do just that.
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Consider an area like the Barossa, hefty investment in huge infrastructure. Multi Storey buildings and extreme risk.
The nearest sky jet is at Oakden probably a solid forty minute drive to Nuri even with the assistance of green lights all the way. Surely a brigade like Tanunda, Nuri, Lyndoch should have appliances proportionate to the risk covered.
The risk should determine the appliances in stations not if the service providers are paid a wage or not. 8-)
Does that mean all country towns with concrete wheat silos should get aerials, cool place orders for Owen, Hamley Bridge, Balaklava, Tarlee, Mallala & half of the Yorke Pennisula send them with our tankers
Agrees with Evac.
But I think the government does have some responsibility to protect infrastructure. If not then why would SAMFS purchase trucks like Brontos? They see the high rise risk and fund the appropriate resources to cover the risk. If it where left to building owners in the city there would not be appropriate resource.
Back to my earlier point the fire service should be provided with appliances appropriate to risk even if that risk is developing rapidly. Clearly Silos have an economic impact for lost grain etc but Large shopping centres, wineries, factory's in my view create a greater economic and social impact if lost than a silo.
:-D :-D
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Consider an area like the Barossa, hefty investment in huge infrastructure. Multi Storey buildings and extreme risk.
The nearest sky jet is at Oakden probably a solid forty minute drive to Nuri even with the assistance of green lights all the way. Surely a brigade like Tanunda, Nuri, Lyndoch should have appliances proportionate to the risk covered.
The risk should determine the appliances in stations not if the service providers are paid a wage or not. 8-)
Does that mean all country towns with concrete wheat silos should get aerials, cool place orders for Owen, Hamley Bridge, Balaklava, Tarlee, Mallala & half of the Yorke Pennisula send them with our tankers
Sarge you do need to get out more.
The Barossa has the highest rate of infrastructure development in the state. And has had so for the last 3 to 5 years. If you look at it realistically what is the long term economic loss to a community if a wheat silo smolders away and destroys it's self.... very little. When you assess a risk like those we are talking about (Not silos) the long term impact on the community from an infrastructure loss (and the following consequences.. employment etc) the size of Orlando's or Fosters storage and packaging facilities needs a great amount of consideration.
One then begs the question, is it upto the government to provide fire cover (eg aerial appliances and large pumpers to boost sprinkler systems etc)above the BCA or should the government provide the resources to ensure protection / rescue of life that may be threatened by an incident within one of these large infrastructures and leave the company to deal with the fire protection and damage minimisation. You do not have to look to far to see those companies that provide an emergency response team and equipment to do just that.
And u appear to need a sence of humor, When we have trouble trying to get a tanker or a replacement for our old 24 do u think I would seriously believe that we would get an arial. Hmmm :-)
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The goverment should provide the appliances,any new development will always have conditions placed on it from the local council and the CFS,these conditions could be that a booster system be installed to provide better support to the site sprinkler for use by the fire service.
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Skycrane and other aircraft have been used in the past to drop water on fires that are in/around houses have seen it before in NSW and in the states....
Yeah good idea lets use an aircraft that cost in excess of $2000 just to get off the ground to start fighting structure fires!! Please tell me you are not being serious!!!
The government providing appliances like this, good luck! The government have a hard enough time trying to understand what exactly it is that the CFS do, let alone being able to provide enough funding for what is actually required by the service in regards to replacement appliances, training, equipment and not to mention employing enough staff to actually provide volunteers with sufficient support during fires or the day to day running of the service.
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The government have a hard enough time trying to understand what exactly it is that the CFS do
Pretty easy..would love to have a few simple words with Zollo...ok Here is the MFS...they do this...and here is the CFS, they do pretty much the same as MFS PLUS Rural fire response. Where the MFS do not exist the CFS does ;). The only downfall in the CFS is that the level of service is not exactly the same for every country town on the map.
The M only means slightly better training, slightly more funding and being paid. Oh and Foxtel.
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No sorry, you can't expect the government to understand what the CFS does when the CFS doesn't even know what it does. According to the powers that be, we still only do Rural jobs. Go figure.
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who then signed off the last batch of Type 2 pumpers on the budget :P Pretty USELESS for rural jobs ey??
CFS definately has to meet its Urban Firefighting demands.
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Ah but the CFS does know what it does...maybe if some of the volunteers who are so forward on their opinions actually looked into things a little more they would know that the service is quite clear on what it does!
Take a look at the Strategic Directions 2005-2007, found on the cfs website under about us, in its Vivid Description of the CFS! :wink:
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according to that document...CFS has 85 urban appliances :P thats more than MFS :evil:
yes i know...only a few handful of them are proper pumpers.
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Do you mean that the service actually has proper pumpers??? Where are they hiding them??
Ah wait a minute..you mean the ones that never work when you need them to, that are always breaking down!! :-D
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Only have to look at the brigades with Type 2 pumpers to find them.
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The type 2 pumper is only classified as a medium pumper. but really what constitutes a proper pumper? 4000lpm? 3000lpm? stowage?
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I would suggest that without getting to technical a "proper pumper" would obviously be an appliance classed as a pumper, that is used solely for that purpose, not for rescue as well as being a pumper, that it must be capable of utilising all booster systems in the area and is sufficient for the areas risk.
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The classification of a Pumper relates generally to its pumping capacity - the so called "Type 2" pumpers are classed as medium pumpers with a pump capacity between 2838 lpm (750 gpm) and 3785 lpm (1000 gpm).
The only Heavy Pumper in the CFS fleet is Seaford Pumper - Heavy Pumper classified as a capacity of 3785 lpm (1000 gpm) or more
Pip
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Zippy, you may want to notice the number of CFS issued memos/papers about Rural Fires compared to that or Structure Fires.
LECS, WATCHOUT and 10 Standard Fire orders all relate directly to Rural fires. Reading through SOP's COSO's and Operational Management Guidelines, nearly everything is related to rural fires.
Apart from the OBAOC Manual, CFB literature and a small amount of RECEO SV material in Level 3 there is comparatively nil about structural firefighting operations taught or acknowledged by CFS.
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Again though a lot of that comes down to Gavernment not giving CFS the funding to develop the course. CFS have had people in training in the past who have developed or put forward ideas but due to a lack of funding, just like where they are taking money from BA courses, these courses can't run.
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And put it into reality the CFS all brigades send members to rural jobs oftern more then once a year but how many brigades actauly go to a house/structure fire more than once a year? should funding go into suppress wildfire? or training RIT teams? based solely on figures?
i believe the is a need for more structural training but in the real world we would be lucky to get more than 1 BA job per year?
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Again though a lot of that comes down to Gavernment not giving CFS the funding to develop the course. CFS have had people in training in the past who have developed or put forward ideas but due to a lack of funding, just like where they are taking money from BA courses, these courses can't run.
That may well be the case as far as funding for courses go, but to cultivate a culture within a service needs no government funding.
I'm not saying that CFS needs to become MFS, or have heavy pumpers in every station, but there need to be acknowledgment of the 'Firefighting' in all parts that we in the CFS do. The danger to firefighters in a burning structure is far far greater than that of those operating in at a bushfire, yet we get no little glossy cards reminding us of safety at anything other than a bushfire.
And put it into reality the CFS all brigades send members to rural jobs oftern more then once a year but how many brigades actauly go to a house/structure fire more than once a year? should funding go into suppress wildfire? or training RIT teams? based solely on figures?
i believe the is a need for more structural training but in the real world we would be lucky to get more than 1 BA job per year?
Your brigade may only got to 1 'going' structural job a year, but you need to think about other brigades. There are plenty of brigades that go to multiple structure fires a year. There is more to CFS and firefighting than just your slice of paradise.
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More indepth training should be introduced for structure fires but, sorry to those brigades that do maybe 3 structure jobs a year, the training should be limited to brigades in the urban and urban/rural category then the rural/urban category as a matter of need in those areas.
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hey i agree that we need more training in structural. and yeah limiting it like they have been doing with the plantation course is probably a good idea but should the entire rest of CFS take funding cuts from state wide applicable wildfire trainig for 5 or 6 brigades to get better structural training?
Personally I think there should be more reinforcement of the basics of structural firefighting than going out to teach fancy stuff.
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STC did have there funding shifted around just to do the Safe Off Road driver training course, but i believe the government boosted up the funding to keep the already planned courses ready for running. Once safe off road driving has been completed for the state...good idea would be to use the same amount of funding from now on for Urban firefighting courses.
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Before we get too sidetracked, I was suggesting that the CFS just needs to look at both sides of firefighting, not just rural. The training that CFS deliver for Structural firefighting is great, there is really nothing 'fancy' that is being taught, its all basic knowledge. I was more referring to the ingrained culture of Rural firefighting as opposed to Urban firefighting that present in CFS.
hey i agree that we need more training in structural. and yeah limiting it like they have been doing with the plantation course is probably a good idea but should the entire rest of CFS take funding cuts from state wide applicable wildfire trainig for 5 or 6 brigades to get better structural training?
Same thing is happening with plantation courses though isn't it? I haven't got the remotest scent of a plantation in my response area, yet I consider plantation training a valuable tool to those brigades that deal with plantations in their response area. I know that I will almost never exposed to the training, yet why shouldn't it be taught?
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Its a worry when you go to a callout with an adjoining brigades that urban/rural or meet some urban/rural brigades at a scrub or grass fire and they struggle to do the basics.Maybe more time needs to be devoted concentrating on the basics and getting a sound fireground/practice base before the more complex less used training is attempted every week, not every brigade needs to be MFS wannabes.. its a difficult balance dollars/time and training focuses.
Cheers Jaff
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Yep, the basics of firefighting don't change from one day to the next. Sadly, those basics are easy for some to pick up, yet for others they need constant reinforcement.
Not every brigade needs to be MFS wannabes..
Thats part of the problem. Just because a brigade has a structural focus and cares about structural techniques, they are branded as MFS wannabees.
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or is it just that a lot of people are MFS wannabes some of my friends are MFS wannabes and i tell them to their face. yes CFS is now a multi emergency response agency it is no longer just grass and bush alot of brigades are now looking after large urban areas and massive structural risks as well as trying to keep up with rescue and hazmat.
brigades are also backing up MFS to going jobs as well as MFS backing up CFS. it can be done every body's way no one person is going to get what they want CS management spend the training money as they see fit for the whole state sometimes it seems unfair yes but that is life.
training does need to fit all brigades. brigades like butler, sharinga, avon, alma, the list goes on they dont need to know detailed ways of fighting structure fires they need to know the support roles pumping etc dalkeith sailsbury burnside mt barker the list again could go forever they need to know it inside out aim training at brigades that need that training and get the others up to standard out side the building but dont you think more focus on recruitment would be better at the moment as crew numbers are down and workload is up by 42% on what it has been and yes the 42% is a fact
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Yeah good idea lets use an aircraft that cost in excess of $2000 just to get off the ground to start fighting structure fires!! Please tell me you are not being serious!!!
The government providing appliances like this, good luck! The government have a hard enough time trying to understand what exactly it is that the CFS do, let alone being able to provide enough funding for what is actually required by the service in regards to replacement appliances, training, equipment and not to mention employing enough staff to actually provide volunteers with sufficient support during fires or the day to day running of the service.
To again quote Saint Phil Cheney regarding guvvermints & bushfires: ...high profile "... big fires, heroes, helicopters..." (rather than lots of low profile but urban-greenie-voter-upsetting fuel management activity - pulverators, cool burns, etc) That's where the votes are, so that's where the dollars will flow.
Perhaps this is part of the reason why isn't enough money left in kitty to pay for the stuff we vollies really need. ie. all the stuff you list in your second para.
Faux Pas, for someone who, in postings in other topics sounds like a ministerial plant, in this one, you sound like someone who actually "gets it" !! What gives?
By the way, the Aircrane thing is a joke - just pulling inmate# 6739264's chain.
Thought I'd clarify that since I was the sarcastic illegitimatus that started it.
cheers
AJ
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No sorry, you can't expect the government to understand what the CFS does when the CFS doesn't even know what it does. According to the powers that be, we still only do Rural jobs. Go figure.
What's this "we" business ?
The Fairy Godmother muttered something about doing Farawayland and King Iemma the Not-Terribly-Well-Organised. I think. Maybe I wasn't paying attention (common accusation - totally without... sorry what was that?)
Anyway...
I have definitely seen the word "Urban" in a CFS context - possibly an SOP detailing a selection of alternative tunes to the standard siren wail.
Or it might have been an SFEC.
But probably the siren thingy.
Now, where did I put my banjo...
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Faux Pas, for someone who, in postings in other topics sounds like a ministerial plant, in this one, you sound like someone who actually "gets it" !! What gives?
Considering for a second that not every one shares the same views and opinions, it may also pay for you to consider that not all people have the same perspective regarding a service. There is more to the CFS than just the volunteers. If the service was run JUST by volunteers you would find that things would be even less achievable than some of you seem to think they are now through paid staff.
I have had experience in a number of different brigades that have ranged from very quiet to very busy and been involved with the service in a training capacity, seen the different sides of issues faced by these brigades and been able to take on board these differences that have resulted in me seeing things from a different perspective.
Simple solution to it all...Volunteers, Staff and the Government need to step outside the square their opinions live in and see it from each others perspective. That might promote a change in everyones thinking.
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No sorry, you can't expect the government to understand what the CFS does when the CFS doesn't even know what it does. According to the powers that be, we still only do Rural jobs. Go figure.
What's this "we" business ?
The Fairy Godmother muttered something about doing Farawayland and King Iemma the Not-Terribly-Well-Organised. I think. Maybe I wasn't paying attention (common accusation - totally without... sorry what was that?)
Anyway...
I have definitely seen the word "Urban" in a CFS context - possibly an SOP detailing a selection of alternative tunes to the standard siren wail.
Or it might have been an SFEC.
But probably the siren thingy.
Now, where did I put my banjo...
Ahem, sorry, I don't mean to tar all of the CFS with the same brush, as I know that there are a number of brigade that don't do anything urban at all. Now rather than using the collective 'we' for the service I shall endeavor to list all Brigade with an urban risk to qualify what I'm saying and to not hurt anyones feelings, before making a point.
Now you know as well as I do that the siren documentation is taken far more seriously than a jumble of letters like SFEC!
Anyhow, I don't really know anything seeing as though I'm merely a fly by night hick with a banjo who really isn't part of any service anywhere and simply bullshits on about things gleaned from textbooks!
Now! All the CFS needs are Trucks, Ladders and Engines...
Or maybe Rescues, Pumpers, Telebooms, and Ultra Larges...
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Morphett Vale should get a Teleboom (yes i think CFS could do better than a old Skyjet). :evil:
Not a single Aerial resource below Cross Roads in the city.
The Focus of this topic does centralise on the Urban Fringe and close large Country towns like Mt Barker.
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I think we should adopt the NSW approach.
CFS = 4x4 bushfire trucks , proban and construction workers helmets, only respond to bushfires and nothing else.
MFS = 4x4 pumpers, heavy pumpers, all appropriate training to fight fires in urban interface areas, training for urban stations who's bread and butter work funnily enough isn't bushfires anymore.
What I am getting at is the fact that most of the urban fringe brigades aren't responding to bushfires or grass fires anymore. The one's we are responding to are pissy little ones. My brigade actually responds to quite a number of urban fires mainly structure and car fires. So that suggests to me that whilst we still need rural fire training we should have a LOT more urban firefighting training.
Also I think we need to get out of this cap on BA operators for these urban stations, what a crock, being that we do more structure fires and urban related calls why on earth do we have a cap, like any brigade you don't know who will rock up, so we should allow anyone thats wants to do it the chance.
CFS needs to get serious, or get out of the urban game.
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Pumperescue,why should CFS get out of the urban area??? we can work with the MFS and if we did get out of the urban area who is going to cover MFS area when they get a 3rd alarm house fire and pull in appliances from all over metro???? We don't need to get out of the urban area we all(mfs/cfs/ses) all need to work as a team there is enough call outs for all of us and if the UFU and the government pulled there filtered heads in we could have staff and volunteer stations under one roof....I am not sure why this state is so dead set against volunteer and paid staff under one roof,works well in other state's...
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Just a query. What extra urban training is there available?
Not saying there isnt any...just been racking my brain trying to work out what else there could be. My head hurts now!
What is covered in the MFS recruit course?
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Just a query. What extra urban training is there available?
Not saying there isnt any...just been racking my brain trying to work out what else there could be. My head hurts now!
What is covered in the MFS recruit course?
I would say all emergency service people should complete a USAR CAT 1 course.
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I heard a rumor that CFS are actually considering building an Aerial appliance and running it as a state resource out of a centrally located brigade. Burnside was mentioned, (possibly instead of their new pumper???). It would respond to incidents around the city as well as to prolonged structure fires a bit further away like mount barker, murray bridge, gawler etc.
I think its a good idea if its actually going ahead, but i would suggest a brigade with more industrial risks in area such as salisbury or happy valley.
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yeah that sounds great for one at a central station but it should be at a station that can respond in any direction to get to places out side the grater metro area 10 years ago there was a massive structure fire out here and had CFS and MFS from all ends of the state we had several skyjets etc here at one stage there were three here mabye four so its not just metro that need it
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Andrew they are talking urban fire fighting, not USAR.
Yep combined stations -good idea
My guess is pumprescues dream is closer than he realises!
Its all in a name.
And yes we to had a fire many years ago that required resources from all over (spirit bond store).
Talked to a very knowledgable person (very experienced firey) & even he was concerned about what is stored within there! So yep there is more than just the metro area - we have more than scrub out here :-D
cheers
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but how many brigades actauly go to a house/structure fire more than once a year?
i believe the is a need for more structural training
Of corse bearing in mind in most parts of rural sa there is no MFS so every structure fire is responded to by CFS not MFS, So yeah more structure training would be nice.
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I think we should adopt the NSW approach.
CFS = 4x4 bushfire trucks , proban and construction workers helmets, only respond to bushfires and nothing else.
That's fine if there are mets who are round the corner, Brigades outside suburbia (That's us in the sticks) don't have that luxury nor will we ever.
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easily sperated. Any CFS station with urban appliances has the trucks painted red and given to MFS - all the vols at the station become retained!
....CFS keep the rest!!
:evil:
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I heard a rumor that CFS are actually considering building an Aerial appliance and running it as a state resource out of a centrally located brigade. Burnside was mentioned, (possibly instead of their new pumper???). It would respond to incidents around the city as well as to prolonged structure fires a bit further away like mount barker, murray bridge, gawler etc.
I think its a good idea if its actually going ahead, but i would suggest a brigade with more industrial risks in area such as salisbury or happy valley.
I also heard that John Wayne was coming back from the dead and was gonna run for US President.
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Yeah... and boris yeltsin is playing for the crows this season...
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I think we should adopt the NSW approach.
CFS = 4x4 bushfire trucks , proban and construction workers helmets, only respond to bushfires and nothing else.
MFS = 4x4 pumpers, heavy pumpers, all appropriate training to fight fires in urban interface areas, training for urban stations who's bread and butter work funnily enough isn't bushfires anymore.
CFS needs to get serious, or get out of the urban game.
Be mindful though that there are certain Urban Fringe RFS brigades that are BA equipped. Not a whole lot, but still a handful. They even have their Cat11 Urban pumpers built for the job...
Just a query. What extra urban training is there available?
Not saying there isnt any...just been racking my brain trying to work out what else there could be. My head hurts now!
There is a fair bit that is brushed over and only touched on theoretically. The OBAOC course and the CFBT courses are great. CFBT needs to be expanded further than just the demo cell that is used currently into actual door entry/room extinguishment techniques. Ventilation, salvage, working on roofs, forcible entry, things like this that form the basics of structural are only touched on theoretically. USAR is a whole different kettle of fish, but the CAT 1 course is a no brainer, and is more of an awareness course.It could well be introduced across all emergency services.
My guess is pumprescues dream is closer than he realises!
Its all in a name.
The theory behind it isn't bad, but my god the think of the funding! To have SAMFS in every town! Though I can't say the money would be well spent, with some NSWFB Station doing less than 10 calls a year, its worse than our SAMFS retained. Now, about that single fire service with both volunteers and paid staff...
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maybe some of that stuff will appear in the new level 3? But i agree with numbers.
Although isnt just about everything in the CFS brushed over? Ive learnt more through in house training then i ever did at a CFS course. Is this just me or does someone agree?
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I didn't think CFS courses were designed to give you everything you ever need to know on a particular topic....nor do most people have the time to spend hours & hours every week on a course to learn everything... :|
Pip
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maybe some of that stuff will appear in the new level 3?
What new level 3 last I heard was that L3 is being canned & replaced with a couple of different courses. :?
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There is a fair bit that is brushed over and only touched on theoretically. The OBAOC course and the CFBT courses are great.
CFBT? Compartment Fire Behaviour T?
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There is a fair bit that is brushed over and only touched on theoretically. The OBAOC course and the CFBT courses are great.
CFBT? Compartment Fire Behaviour T?
Compartment Fire Behaviour Training?
I didn't think CFS courses were designed to give you everything you ever need to know on a particular topic....nor do most people have the time to spend hours & hours every week on a course to learn everything... :|
Pip
True, they aren't, but there are some areas that need to be taught in more depth, or even just a single practical exercise to reinforce the basics.
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There is a fair bit that is brushed over and only touched on theoretically. The OBAOC course and the CFBT courses are great.
CFBT? Compartment Fire Behaviour T?
Compartment Fire Behaviour Training?
Fair Enough I've only known it as a CFB Course
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There is a fair bit that is brushed over and only touched on theoretically. The OBAOC course and the CFBT courses are great.
True, they aren't, but there are some areas that need to be taught in more depth, or even just a single practical exercise to reinforce the basics. [/quote]
Some more training courses, and some "basic" and then "advanced" type training, in a wide variety of topics would be nice.....but no matter what you do, you cannot possibly expect to "learn everything" on a course!
Pip
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...but no matter what you do, you cannot possibly expect to "learn everything" on a course!
Pip
Good god no, and I'm not suggesting such. But just think, we have step by step FGP's for folding a salvage sheet, but not for forcing entry through doors, or ventilating a roof or a building.
Ok, sorry, I know we don't even carry the right tools for forcing entry, but that just goes to show that CFS won't even equip brigades for the job they are meant to be doing.
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Speaking of FGP's I am surprised that there isn't one for "Forming your opinion of the CFS, and its paid structure, based on your Brigades opinion". There seems to be enough of it going on around here :-D
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Ok, sorry, I know we don't even carry the right tools for forcing entry, but that just goes to show that CFS won't even equip brigades for the job they are meant to be doing.
Oh no's 671598739 but we do...its a halligan tool and sledge hammer!...but yes we're not appropriately trained to use them in a safe manner in State trainings eyes.
Watch some good American Volly firefighers do it on youtube, they know how to!
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Oh no HazmatZippy, we don't. Standard Urban stowage is a Hooligan Tool, with RCR cutting claw. It also has a lightweight sledgehammer. Neither of these will give you a great chance at opening that door with the screaming kids behind it.
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Ah you guys need a trusty Holmatro Combitool, small pump, ram & also a diskcutter, like your friends in the mets have! :evil:
I've heard Holmatro will do good deals for the fire services :wink:
On a serious note - courses especially for volunteers are only designed to give you the basics - OJT is where you really learn.
Next time have a look at the Chubb training web site, and the time frame allowed. Then compare to the vollies courses and the ones done by full timers.
And before anybody has a shot - as a state trainer on several subjects I think I might be a slight bit qualified to talk about training.
cheers
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Chook, you can keep your combitool, its too big and bulky for forced entry to buildings. Ill take the trusty Holmatro HD 100 and my Axe/Halligan thanks :D
Its fine for courses to give the basics, but there is no follow up to reinforce the training, nor is OJT the greatest, especially when you have a crap crew.
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too true sadly though its all we got :-(
Of course we could always do what the army reserve do two week live in courses :wink:
On the tool thing saw some good stuff at a conference I was at last year, designed & built for the Israeli military for getting to fortified doors - hand powered good stuff :-D
like your choice of though!
cheers
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Now now, we can't use military grade explosive on doors chook!
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darn i thought blowing stuff up is what the CFS does :-P :-D
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No, filtered stuff up is what the CFS does.
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No no they blow stuff up...its called over exaggerating to the media!! :-D
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No need to become a one trick pony Mr. Faux Pas :)
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But hey that is all that these topics seem to be...same comments just reworded!
So back on topic, If CFS introduce more structural training what should be included and how should it be delivered?
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But hey that is all that these topics seem to be...same comments just reworded!
So back on topic, If CFS introduce more structural training what should be included and how should it be delivered?
What I think should be in it, the basics, has all been previously mentioned in this thread. The delivery should be as it is, with some decent practical evolutions so that everyone gets as hands on as possible.
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I know that the topics you want included have been previously mentioned but i thought you might be able to provide a little more insight into exactly what each of those topics should contain. ie. ventilation- ppv, manual ventilation techniques etc.
Where would you base the course? Brukunga? Is the STC big enough to produce the facilities and still maintain the other courses that it runs there for accommodation and food etc.
Do we also need to look at Commercial structural training and domestic structural training?
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Not explosives - special hand hydraulics. Mind you explosives might not be a bad idea :-D
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what happened to the "tactical ventilation" course that was meant to be happening?
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what happened to the "tactical ventilation" course that was meant to be happening?
It got "blown" away :-D
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what happened to the "tactical ventilation" course that was meant to be happening?
It got "blown" away :-D
(http://lureandmore.com/images/smiles/rollaughsmilie.gif)
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I know that the topics you want included have been previously mentioned but i thought you might be able to provide a little more insight into exactly what each of those topics should contain. ie. ventilation- ppv, manual ventilation techniques etc.
Where would you base the course? Brukunga? Is the STC big enough to produce the facilities and still maintain the other courses that it runs there for accommodation and food etc.
Do we also need to look at Commercial structural training and domestic structural training?
Well, start with what we have initially.
OBAOC course is good. Spends a little too much time on things that are on the whole useless eg: Personal lines/Guidlines and to tie them 'correcty'. Doesn't really focus on things like firefighter rescue, or internal commumications/sitreps to ECO/IC.
CFBT course is great for education, needs to be expanded to entry techniques and moving into a room, moving and gas cooling.
Ventilation - I don't know exactly what the 'Tactical Ventilation' course was meant to teach, but a simple training building that can be comparmentalised would be great for all facets of Urban/Structural training. This allows people to see practically the impact of all types of ventilation, and as well as the impact of moving through a structure and closing/opening doors during fire attack. Use either a smoke machine or fuel trays.
Things that should be taught: All forms of ventilation, Mechanical, Natural, Hydraulic. All means, Horizontal/Vertical/Trench etc etc.
Salvage/Overhaul - Highlight and reinforce the number of jobs CFS go to that the water damage exceeds the fire/smoke damage. Teach smart salvage and overhaul techniques, rather than just smash the crap out of a wall to check for fire spread. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive in firefighting, but remember its 'Our fire, in THEIR house."
Working on roofs - Being mindful of signs of collapse of roofs and how to perform vertical ventilation carrectly and safely.
Forcible Entry - How to effect entry to buildings quickly, and how to use those tools on the truck to the best of their ability. There shouldn't be much that you can't open with the correct tools, we just need to get them...
As to where the courses would be based, there would be nothing wrong with basing it at Brukunga, although certain parts can be taught/reinforced at group level. Things like forcible entry simulators would be an easy purchase for regions/groups. For ventilation, I would like to see a purpose built structure instead of the "house with a shed" at Brukunga currently. This would allow real factors to influence smoke behavior etc etc. Make the building reasonably air tight, with windows and doors, internal and external. This way you can smoke it up, and still ventilate the structure when necessary.
Commercial structure or domestic? They are both structures so the basics remain the same. The only real difference would be layout/building size/fuel load/possible occupancy.
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so.... which dreamworld are ya living in numbers???
im joking mate, i agree 100% with what you are saying.
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so.... which dreamworld are ya living in numbers???
im joking mate, i agree 100% with what you are saying.
hhahah the one where CFS has good funding :-P
i agree exactly with all that
1 question wouldn't working on roofs require us to be given adequate equipment to cut holes etc?
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technically OH&S probably stops us from working on roofs anyway, unless your going to include harnesses/etc in that new gear. what is it over 1.5m or something?
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i dont know the CFS height restriction but SES is anything one story or more requires harness
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1 question wouldn't working on roofs require us to be given adequate equipment to cut holes etc?
Dont you have Halligans/ceiling hooks/sledgehammers/axes as standard stowage? They make mince meat of tiles, and the Halligan with cutting claw can do a passable job on a tin roof. Chainsaws are great, depending on the construction of the roof. A few brigades have Powersaws that do the job fantastically.
technically OH&S probably stops us from working on roofs anyway, unless your going to include harnesses/etc in that new gear. what is it over 1.5m or something?
Yeah I believe it is something like 1.5 or 'one storey' but for the time it takes to harness up and construct an anchor off the roof with crossed ropes, its not worth it in terms of firefighting. Not to mention only an handful of CFS brigades have harnesses/ropes.
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yeah we have all that but I was just wondering what you where thinking of.
Is there any guidelines on using power saws yet? as CFS is still the only fire service without them.
well we carry ladders that go higher than 1.5 m so i don't know why we have them if we need harnesses.
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i believe you can work on a ladder with out a harness as SOPS allow for this as ladders are meant to be tied off. however there is nothing to stop you from falling off a roof with out safety harness and ropes
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well then we shall need ladder trucks to make anchor points quickly :-D
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In SA there isn't a minimum height -it actually says risk of a fall (ask the companies that have been done for loading docks).
Industry however either use 2.4 mtrs or the Victorian 1.8 mtrs (My company uses 1.8 ). Under that provision ladder safety systems would be required - however a Risk Assessment is required first & it could be argued that tying yourself to a burning structure on a ladder is far more hazardous than falling from one :-D. The AS/NZS 1891 INDUSTRIAL FALL ARREST SYSTEMS has been re written, now fall arresters are required in all fall restraint systems regardless. I need to spend more time reading it to understand the implications of such an amendment.
Anyway there is my input to this discussion.
Cheers
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Sorry to go back a few steps but
Oh no HazmatZippy, we don't. Standard Urban stowage is a Hooligan Tool, with RCR cutting claw. It also has a lightweight sledgehammer. Neither of these will give you a great chance at opening that door with the screaming kids behind it.
How many brigades do actually carry a proper Halligan tool ?? An actual one piece forged one, not the the three piece one with cutting claw that will break as soon as you hit it with an axe.
After conducting some forcible entry training with Dale from FARA we went out and bought one. Funnily enough a week later we were at a house fire with MFS whom we had to instruct on the correct use of forcible entry tools, it seems they don't teach that in the recruit course as their guys were trying to get in through a front door with a Jemmy Bar and hammer. They were a little red faced but happy to learn from our guys, we were later told that the MFS hierachy are not super keen on pursuing this form of training.
If anyone is keen to learn some of these techniques give FARA a call, they have a full portable door setup that can be hit over and over to practice forcing a door in a number of different configurations.
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MattB, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I've managed to bend and break one of the Paratech Hooligan 3-piece bars doing nothing too extraordinary with it on a door. Yet the CFS have them as standard equipment on all trucks. Nothing like using a cheap tool for a job its not really meant to be doing.
The portable door setups are great to practice anything and everything on them. From Halligans to powersaws, theres not much relating to forcible entry that you can't do with them.
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Strange that FARA sell that tool as a forceable entry tool, if it not suitable.
I have no doubt what you say is true, just strange no one mentions it until afterwards.
cheers
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so.... which dreamworld are ya living in numbers???
im joking mate, i agree 100% with what you are saying.
Make it a combined training facility then. SAFECOM is forming the training back office so that books, forms, compliance, etc, etc of all three RTO's are done in the one place. Pool the money together.
Brukunga is already used by SES for vertical rescue, leadership, etc. MFS I understand also use the facility.
Some of the training facilities already exist. SES have a complete house roof that is 1 metre off the ground at the SHQ Training facility at Noarlunga. Complete minature houses showing wooden construction have been delivered to many Units via TAFE students. This assist in understanding how a typical house is constructed.
Just some ideas...
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Thats not the only reason.
Yep combining common services, buildings etc is a great idea!
Saves money - great.
Also gives all three services access to a common pool of resources - including cash.
Now the next words you will hear is - risk, need, exposure!
And now wait for it - priorities.
All of a sudden our very cheap (by comparison) training, will be a lower priority.
And all of a sudden we will have less people qualified in the high profile tasks.
We trainers will have to jump through more hoops to meet the standard (what ever someone dreams up - will have nothing to do with National Competencies) the courses we currently run will have new content added to match our fire service cousins. I totally agree with combining of stuff, as long as we have strong enough people to protect our interest. And not become another bucket of money for others to dip into.
And I appologise for going off topic.
cheers
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Thats not the only reason.
Yep combining common services, buildings etc is a great idea!
Saves money - great.
Also gives all three services access to a common pool of resources - including cash.
Now the next words you will hear is - risk, need, exposure!
And now wait for it - priorities.
All of a sudden our very cheap (by comparison) training, will be a lower priority.
And all of a sudden we will have less people qualified in the high profile tasks.
We trainers will have to jump through more hoops to meet the standard (what ever someone dreams up - will have nothing to do with National Competencies) the courses we currently run will have new content added to match our fire service cousins. I totally agree with combining of stuff, as long as we have strong enough people to protect our interest. And not become another bucket of money for others to dip into.
And I appologise for going off topic.
cheers
I understand that is why combining the frontline training staff into SAFECOM was REJECTED. This is the backend stuff that is common to all organisations.
eg, Printing of the learner guides, ensuring the competency forms are completed properly, issuing certificates, updating records, ensuring privacy provisions on documentation is correct, handling audits, etc, etc.
I do not know if maintenance of training facilities is included.....
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Strange that FARA sell that tool as a forceable entry tool, if it not suitable.
I have no doubt what you say is true, just strange no one mentions it until afterwards.
cheers
Well you could probably force open the zip on a tent with the Paratech tool but thats about it. It is intended for RCR use only, hence the reason it has the metal cutting claw as opposed to the standard door entry style.
It's just that most brigades have no idea about correct forcible entry techniques and have never really tried to use the Paratech one in that manner. As numbers pointed out it won't last long once you start smashing it with an axe or sledge.
Wow we are off topic, isn't it exciting...