SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: Alan (Big Al) on December 02, 2005, 02:26:17 PM
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I believe this subject may have been talked about before but i believe that the time taken by SAAS to respond other services to MVA's and related calls is sometimes pathetic!! Looking at the GRN pager website the call times between SAAS and then Fire & Rescue coverage being called can sometimes go as high as 20Min's, eg: in the early hours of this morning at Paringa SAAS was responded to an MVA, it was around 10-11 Min's before Renmark SES and Paringa CFS were responded, although this accident resulted in a fatality if the PT was still alive this accounts for a lot of lost time. A second example a month or so back a car crashed at Burra as a result of a high speed chase, SAAS was responded and 22 minutes after that Rescue was called and the occupants were trapped for some time as a result of the accident.
I have spoken to some of our local volunteer AO's and they said that if the accident doesn't sound that bad or they aren't given many details then SAAS comms wont respond other resources until the info is updated or the first ambulance arrives to let them know if any one else is required.
I was told a couple years ago as a directive that fire was meant to be responded to all MVA's attended by SAAS as a safety and assistance measure for them. I mean a lot of the time Fire and or Rescue are responded within 1-4minutes which is a pretty acceptable timeframe but what about all the others that take over that time surely one day it will come down to those few minutes making a difference and we will probably be the ones in the firing line (as usual).
Just my opinion though. :|
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I think some of the SAAS response times for other services are bl00dy pathetic also ! It is SOOO easy to put a stop on oncoming services, but that critical time taken to respond them can put lives in jeopardy !!
Think they need to be told to automatically respond fire/rescue for VA's where services arent already on the scene.. about time they had a wake up call I think, their current method of practise could and 'possibly' has cost lives.
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One day ( I hope it does not happen)
you will have a ambo in a car at a mva/rcr and it will catch on fire.
That will make thing change.
I went to a OIL SPILL and we were told before we arrived that we were not needed from the SAAS, we kept going and well put it this way we cut him out.
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Before SAAS Communications Centre in Mount Gambier was closed down due to communications being centralised in Adelaide any fire call that was received by SE Comms via 000 requiring CFS response the communications officer at Mount Gambier Ambulance Communications Centre would page the nearest CFS brigade to the incident
The message that would come up on our pagers in Kalangadoo whenever SAAS paged us were
SAAS: Respond Kalangadoo Station CFSRES
Or
SAAS: Respond Kalangadoo Grass Fire On Kalangadoo-Nangwarry Road CFSRES
These two response messages are only examples but my point is that SE Comms would page us if SOC or the Wattle Range Group didnt recieve the 000 call first
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Thats fine, but I think the point is now, people are seeing a trend where SAAS will wait until they arrive, then notify FIRE + RESCUE.
Now, if a car say rolls over, single vehicle accident.. (Circumstances could be anything..) Anyway, SAAS comms take the call.. Say 3 minutes after the accident happens.... Details fairly sketchy, no mention of anyone trapped, but no one said there wasn't anyone trapped. SAAS unit dispatched one minute later.. Mobile 1 minute after that.. (We are now 5 mins after the accident happend, and the SAAS unit are pulling out the doors).. Say their mobile time is 9 minutes.. (They arrive 14 minutes after the vehicle rolled over.).... They discover a person trapped, notify comms, comms notifies MFS / CFS... Details given, nearest CFS brigade responded(That takes all of 2 minutes).. 5 minute turnout..... We are now 21 Minutes since the vehicle rolled over, trapping the driver.. The Fire appliance is now pulling out the doors of the station..... 1 minute or 20 minute ETA , I can't see how it would matter... With an extrication required, time at the scene for chocking, setting up the equipment and beggining the process would mean the driver would most likey be trapped in the vehicle, for a good hour...
NOW ! If FIRE + Rescue were responded at the same time as SAAS got the call, they would be a good 25 minutes infront of the 8 ball...
Goes to show how crucial time can be, and how stopping appliances is so much easier than responding them too late !
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My point exactly. The time is, as we are always taught, of a critical nature. The fact that SAAS are willing to send their members into accident scenes without proper coverage is astounding, SAAS members aren't trained to deal with unknown or even known hazards even at a minor accident. What if there is pesticides, or drug equipment or an old unstable LPG system, or any other of the 101 things that could happen at a scene. What would it take for SAAS to change their policy? An Injury? A Death of one of their own??? :-o
Another example today: MVA Williamstown SAAS responded at 08:22 CFS called at 08:39 who unfortunatly defaulted so thats already 26minutes wasted!! :oops:
Anyone on this forum who is a trained paramedic or AO what is your opinion on this topic???
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Sorry guys, heard all the arguments before...
As a SAAS Para and ICP for 8 years and a CFS firey for 12 years I seen it from both sides of the fence. Now I've got to say if you all thing that as a fire service that we should respond to all MVA's then good luck to all the fringe urban brigades and the MFS, cause you're workload would go through the roof, for no just cause. The large majority of SAAS responses to MVA accumulate to very little, and the above spoken incidences of timed responses is only a very small percentage.
In the initial call receipt from an accident scene, if there is even a sniff of something dangerous, any form of entrapment or encapsulation, or spillage then the fire service is automatically despatched. A large majority of MVA calls come from SAPOL comcen, and we receive these calls with very little information about scene safety, patient numbers, spillage etc. The other issue is the good samaritan who drives past an accident, who will call 000 on a mobile phone and only be able to give limited information, does this require a multi agency response??
As for the SAAS comcen centralisation, I believe the benefits of the ability to give far better clinical advice to Volunteer Ambulance Crews and Caller over the phone is more important.
I think we should take another step back and think before screaming that the system doesn't work. I think you'll find it works far better than a lot of other interstate and international services with our Call receipt and despatch.
Futhermore SAAS crews all receive training on Fire/Chemical Safety and how to approach a scene safety, and if they aren't doing so then please let me know. It's a good package, I should know cause I wrote it, and deviler it quite often.
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I Agree With Some Of The Points Listed Above. Both From The SAAS Side Of Things & From The Fire & Rescue Side As Well.
Looking Through The Pager Site It Is Easy To See The Amount Of Minor MVA's SAAS Get Called To, However On The Other Side Of Things The Call Out Times Between SAAS & Fire & Rescue Are Quite Large. I Don't Think Much Can Really Be Done About It.
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We had in our area once a 2 car M V A with a gas leak. Two amdo guys running around both cars on radio talking to there base before it closed down complaing about the smell of gas. 15 Min's after their page they asked for fire cover and had to cut the people out of the cars. Interesting listening to on the scanner.
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I understand where your coming from James, the problem is a lot of these thing happen out in the middle of no where, where response times are greatly increased. And a lot of those brigades dont get a lot of calls anyway.
This leads to a couple of points:
1. you have a group of people who want to go help, but are never given the opertunity.... thus making them grumpy.
2. The number of calls a brigade gets now directly affects its funding.
your right though, more often than not it works.... and you only hear about it when it doesnt.
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JamesGar: The other issue is the good samaritan who drives past an accident, who will call 000 on a mobile phone and only be able to give limited information, does this require a multi agency response??
YES ! Too darn right it does !! Limited inforation should be treated as a worst case scenario.. How often do i have to say, it is so much simpler to inform an appliance / Rescue team / further Ambo's that they are not required, rather than risk the lives of people for the simple fact that the comms operator / receipt-dispatch operator was too lazy or ignorant to notify other services.
You could be the best paramedic /ICP / Trauma doctor in the world... What good are you to a patient who is in a burning car... Because the limited information didn't happen to mention that their was fuel leaking, which ignited upon the caller hanging up.... !!
Im sorry mate, but I totally disagree... I would rather the call rate go up, and get a few more stop calls, than arrive to find someone dead because the services were 25 minutes late...
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SOP for all emergency service call centres is respond FIRE + RESCUE + SAPOL + SAAS to ALL reported vehicle accidents, regardless of reports of reported entrapments, injuries, fire, etc
some people just work outside the SOPs
if your curious as to wether my above statement is true then have a gander at the SA road crash resource directory
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So in other words, we would have every right to complain when we are not responded to MVA's in our area? As it should have been the Operators duty to respond Fire + Rescue... Not just a bus ?
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as far as i can decifer,,, you have the right to complain (well we all have the right to complain about whatever we want to... )but i mean; if you think there is cause to complain then do it.
the number of things that get misreported are cause enough to respond fire/rescue service to all MVAs..
its along the similar line of SAPOL being responded by fire service to every report of fire (rural/urban)as well as SAAS being responded to ever yreport of domestic/commercial/industrial structure fire...
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Cheers.
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Couple of quick points:
James comment about SAPOL passing info to SAAS - very valid. SAPOL (under the RCRRD - Road Crash Recuse Resource Directory) have the same responsabilities as any emergeny service taking details for an incident - get as many details as possible and then respond the appropriate service (s). The call therefore is what is adequate information and this varies from service to service (it even varies between the fire services and within the fire services!!!)
As for a complaint - as stated in previous posts - the region advised us to fill in the issues form from the SOP - be specific site: time, date, location, what was found on arrival,action taken by all service etc and alike. We where informed that the RCR Steering Committee had a process for issues resolution and investigation and when we raised the issues, although it took some time we got a response.
It's fine to point the finger at one service, but there are times that the fire service has responded, found that the rubbish fire was a structure and not responded SAAS - there are many examples on every side of the fence.
So to fix it - fill in the forms, start the process and get the ball rolling - then when you don't get an answer you have something to complain about and someone to complain too :-D
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I don't care who gets the blame. If sapol aren't doing their job on their end , they should get a kick up the behind too, as should any Fire Dispatchers that are not responding the appropriate agencies..
However, it is more often than not that you see/hear (I have any way) MVA's where SAAS have attended, at some stage police arrive, and that is that.. Granted, FIRE and Rescue may have been given a stop enroute, however that is alot better than being responded LATE... when time is of a crucial nature..
This could go on and on, so I will end my rant, I just want to get the point across that Assistance is easier to STOP, than to respond late, and we have to get over this attitude of "She'll be right".... Expect the worse... One day it will save a life !
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plan for the worst, hope for the best
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Isn't this the purpose of SACAD being created ? :?
I thought that SACAD is to create a system (incl SOP, computer, processes, staffing, SLA, etc) so that all four emergency services have the same call receipt and dispatch system as well as standard processes.
The process of call taking triage and action to be taken by the operator is the difficult item that SES are currently reviewing.
For example, if a person calls with a tree down on the ground tasking, no (gas water electricity) services involved and SES SCC answers the call, the caller will be advised to contact tree lopper contractors. Not an emergency call.
A sample computer system that I have seen (I work for a company who has responded to the tender) thus far would allow an SAAS or SAFECOM operator to select all services required (be that SAAS, SES, CFS, MFS) at the same time to be alerted.
This hopefully will stop the problem of telephoning the other service Operations Control Centre, repeating the incident details via the telephone and then crews of that service being alerted. How long does that process currently take ?
My personal experience is that the SAAS operators do a great job under high stress. They need to calm and advise the caller of medical conditions, triage, etc, etc. This assisted my wife during a family emergency when an ambulance was required.
Rather than turning this thread into a 'SAAS Caller dispatcher' bashing (which I personally think it is getting close to), how about we acknowledge problems exist and think of ways around the problem !! :|
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worth noting that SAAS call takers dont actually do the dispatch...
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Rather than turning this thread into a 'SAAS Caller dispatcher' bashing (which I personally think it is getting close to), how about we acknowledge problems exist and think of ways around the problem !!
Simple Solution = Dispatcher notifies Fire and Rescue + SAPOL.
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ithink youll find the prob can be everywhere so i agree no SAAS commcen bashing...
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I agree with James in that urban brigade call numbers would go through the roof. While I agree that fire cover should be responded to all MVA's, when the caller says that no one is trapped (Which they often do) Rescue shouldn't be responded. In my experience, SAAS do respond us "if there is even a sniff of something dangerous, any form of entrapment or encapsulation, or spillage".
Regarding the time it takes to respond the fire service, it's probably be a different issue all together, but SOC having to ring MFS to respond CFS brigades and MFS ringing SOC, is a major waste of time. :(
The number of calls a brigade gets now directly affects its funding.
I have to disagree with that. In my group, the biggest spenders aren't the busiest brigades, although the busier brigades perhaps need more funding...
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I have to disagree with that. In my group, the biggest spenders aren't the busiest brigades, although the busier brigades perhaps need more funding...
sorry let me clarify,
SAFECOM, attributes funding in relation to how may calls brigades get (on average) per year. How this is distributed amongst a group is a different story.
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While I agree that fire cover should be responded to all MVA's, when the caller says that no one is trapped (Which they often do) Rescue shouldn't be responded.
disagree completely.
rescue brigades arent always required purely because of presons trapped in cars... 9as strange as that sounds)
Fire AND Rescue should attend every vehicle accident... one shouldnt go without the other. as everyone says, they can always be given a stop call.
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rescue brigades aren't always required purely because of presons trapped in cars... 9as strange as that sounds)
Fire AND Rescue should attend every vehicle accident... one shouldn't go without the other. as everyone says, they can always be given a stop call.
I'm talking more in the case of where someone has had a rear ender, they ring police to report it, as the damage is > $500. They tell police that they've had a crash, yes the cars are still on the road, but everyones out, and OK. Police should probably respond SAAS to check up on the occupants, but should they also respond Rescue to that? I don't think they should.
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mmm unfortunately though i think youll find that there arent just the people that over exagerate an incident... but also people that will say "aaaw its not that bad really" when in reality there is a more major issue than immediately becomes obvious
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Fair call...
I also heard a rumour that some people (Perhaps the VFBA???) are fighting to be rid of automatic Rescue responses to unknown status incidents... has anyone else heard that?
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I don't know why everyone is bothered about call numbers going up and having a whinge because they don't think all accidents are requiring Fire and Rescue... At the end of the day, what is more important.. A HUMAN life... Or a couple more stop call stats..??
If the RCR directory says that Fire and Rescue should be responded to all MVA's, then quit having a whinge, half of you pipe on about the K codes SOP being followed, well follow this directive, and lets see it gets done...
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I think this discussion is also whether it needs to be done... But I agree with you.. we should follow SOP's and provide the best service we can. :)
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havent heard anything about stopping the automatic dispatch of rescue to all VAs... seems to me that would be silly, as it would definitely increase the risk to human life... what happens to the golden hour when you have already spent15-20 minutes confirming rescue is required and getting it on scene? i understanmd you mean to jobs that are reported as no entrapments..... but there just not always obvious... dont forget you can be physically, mechanically or medically trapped.... it might not appear to someone that your pinned... but that doesnnt mean you can move... i have seen a car get completely turned into a convertible to remove someone who was medically trapped, the car had very little damage to it. (could that be one of the instances when a job is put down to being nothing more than a fender bender?)
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On james' point about accidents occuring on the outer fringe of the metro area, these areas are mostly covered by MFS as well as CFS who can have a quick response and also the slower speed limits means a less serious crashes occurr more often, however outside of the metro area probably 90% of the accidents attended to by SAAS would have some kind of spillage or road hazard. Hence why i believe Fire&Rescue should be a dual response with SAAS. And on the topic of callout related funding, mundoo group brigades did approximately 240 calls last year, Victor group did perhaps 80 yet that group gets a lot more funding then ours. Our groups tried to get more funding but have been told that theres nothing more to give. Yet there's groups out there that have got thousand of dollars of equipment just lying around doing nothing because they've got nothing to do with their money. Our group has only got two sets of PBI gold and they're at my brigade, because our group can't afford to buy any more.
Apologies for going off topic :-)
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Interesting list of pager messages below. All services paged very quickly. So it does work properly at times....
1916041 12:06:01 21-12-05 JA81 Cat2 Main Rd, Spalding MULTIPLE HAZARDS
1927064 12:04:03 21-12-05 INFO:SPG: 21 Dec 12:03 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:06
1908531 12:03:53 21-12-05 INFO:SPG: 21 Dec 12:03 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:06
1908526 12:03:44 21-12-05 INFO:SPG: 21 Dec 12:03 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:06
1919216 12:03:24 21-12-05 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:10
1919218 12:03:22 21-12-05 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:10
1928013 12:03:20 21-12-05 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:06
1918233 12:03:16 21-12-05 SHQ: CFSRES SPALDING CFS & SES RESPOND MVA SPALDING - BURRA RD, 2 KMS EAST OF SPALDING, NEAR 80 K/MH > 21/12/2005 12:03:06
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Wrong thread Andy.. This is about SAAS responding other services, by the looks of that (reading from bottom up, as bottom is the first page) The CFS notified SAAS.
And within 4 or so mins... not 15 or 20.
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minuteso a good job of responding fire/rescue probably 70-80% of the time within a good time frame but quite a few serious accidents of late there can be a deficit of up to 10-15miutes!! If they follow the Road Crash Resource Directory which their service signed like everyone else then it should be happening 99% of the time.
The RCR directory states that if SAPOL or SAAS receive a MVA job outside of the Metropolitan area of Adelaide then fire/rescue must be immediately responded.
80% is good but high 90's would be a lot better. :-)
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heres a good one, mind you its all backwards...:
00:11:31 03-01-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 03/01/06 00:10,SOUTH EASTERN FWY,CRAFERS WEST, MAP 145 C 11 ,,TOWARDS THE MT OSMOND TURNOFF,9019*CFSRES:
00:11:29 03-01-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 03/01/06 00:10,SOUTH EASTERN FWY,CRAFERS WEST, MAP 145 C 11 ,,TOWARDS THE MT OSMOND TURNOFF,9019*CFSRES:
STIRLING (GRN 136)
00:08:29 03-01-06 TEST PAGE
00:08:14 03-01-06 MB181 Cat2 Adelaide-crafers Hwy, Leawood Gardens 131 J12 MULTIPLE HAZARDS
00:06:40 03-01-06 MT171 Cat2 Heysen Tunnels Adelaide-crafers Hwy, Leawood Gardens 131 J12
00:05:50 03-01-06 MT171 Case cancelled - crew now not required
00:04:57 03-01-06 MT171 Cat2 Heysen Tunnels Adelaide-crafers Hwy, Leawood Gardens 131 J12
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slightly better one...:
23:52:39 02-01-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 02/01/06 23:51,PRINCES HWY,NAIRNE, MAP 174 H 3 ,,SOUTH OF BLACKISTON TURNOFF,1279 1298*CFSRES:
23:52:37 02-01-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 02/01/06 23:51,PRINCES HWY,NAIRNE, MAP 174 H 3 ,,SOUTH OF BLACKISTON TURNOFF,1279 1298*CFSRES:
NAIRNE (GRN 128)
23:52:31 02-01-06 SHQ: CALL OUT BY THE WAY > 2/01/2006 23:52:21
23:52:25 02-01-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 02/01/06 23:51,PRINCES HWY,NAIRNE, MAP 174 H 3 ,,SOUTH OF BLACKISTON TURNOFF,1279 1298*CFSRES:
23:52:24 02-01-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 02/01/06 23:51,PRINCES HWY,NAIRNE, MAP 174 H 3 ,,SOUTH OF BLACKISTON TURNOFF,1279 1298*CFSRES:
MOUNT BARKER (GRN 128)
23:51:57 02-01-06 W181 Cat2 Princes Hwy, Littlehampton 161 C14
23:51:48 02-01-06 SHQ: WAKE UP CFSRES > 2/01/2006 23:51:39
23:51:20 02-01-06 S181 Cat2 Princes Hwy, Littlehampton 161 C14
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Was at a job when Stirling came up on air for the MVA, by the time we got back to the station and turned the scaneer on they had arrived and it sounded slightly serious?? Curious as to why SAAS cancelled the job and then recalled themselves??
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They responded them again, almost half an hour later: :?
00:28:05 03-01-06 CT174 Cat2 Adelaide-crafers Hwy, Leawood Gardens 131 J12 MULTIPLE HAZARDS
FYI, MVA wasn't all that serious... Your standard rollover at 200km/h.. the driver's injuries weren't life threatening... (To my current knowledge at this time etc etc)
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23:51:48 02-01-06 SHQ: WAKE UP CFSRES > 2/01/2006 23:51:39
Wonder what prompted that message???
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They responded them again, almost half an hour later: :?
00:28:05 03-01-06 CT174 Cat2 Adelaide-crafers Hwy, Leawood Gardens 131 J12 MULTIPLE HAZARDS
FYI, MVA wasn't all that serious... Your standard rollover at 200km/h.. the driver's injuries weren't life threatening... (To my current knowledge at this time etc etc)
Off thread but here's a good one for you! At a job on Xmas day when called to a MVA rollover in the Goolwa beach carpark and warned to expect entrapments as was a high speed crash. When we arrived we were first on scene and found a car half crushed, expecting the worse was told the driver had run off. We found the driver who turned out to be a 14y.o drunk girl who admitted rolling the stolen car at nearly 200kph and did not have one single scratch on her, I've seen some good escapes before but that one just tops the lot.
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Thats scary..... 14yo drunk and driving toward a carpark at high speed???
what the????
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Thats The Problem It Happen's & They Think They Can Handle The High Speed & The Booze.
Too Be Young And Stupid.
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23:51:48 02-01-06 SHQ: WAKE UP CFSRES > 2/01/2006 23:51:39
Wonder what prompted that message???
guessing someone had to wake up???
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hehe... yeah.... I reckon that would be a fair call! lol
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Had another first hand look at SAAS' poor response of other services this morning. SAAS was responded at 0727 to an MVA on hindmarsh island we were responded at 0747. On arrival the accident looked minor however the occupant suffered neck and spinal injuries and we were required to do a forward roof roll to extracate them. :x
Would it be worth complaining to SAAS or the RCR comittee?? Any Views??
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Try referring it through the Region to the committee and see how you go.
I'd be very interested to hear!
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CHEERS..
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Had another first hand look at SAAS' poor response of other services this morning. SAAS was responded at 0727 to an MVA on hindmarsh island we were responded at 0747. On arrival the accident looked minor however the occupant suffered neck and spinal injuries and we were required to do a forward roof roll to extracate them. :x
Would it be worth complaining to SAAS or the RCR comittee?? Any Views??
I did notice that one after SAAS sent an extra page to someone stating that their crew was at a prolonged extrication.
Adam.
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mundcfs - try using the issues form from the SOP's - at least that gives you the field sto fill in - takes a bit of time the first time, but we have found it worth it as people can't dispute whats been written :-P
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Must be a whole new low for SAAS. SAAS responded to MVA Thompsons Beach at 2212 Dublin responded at 2244 with the msg 1xtrapped. Next page is for a SAAS retrieval team (i presume for the same job) It's getting beyond a joke i believe. :?
I'm sorry for the SAAS bashing it's not intended for the crews they do a great job. It's for the comms people. Talking to the Goolwa team leader the other day about the job we had and she said that it's common practice for the Comms people to wait for a truck to get to a job for a sitrep before responding other resources. I then asked if she'd heard of the RCR resource directory and she didn't even know it existed!!
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try the RCR greivence forms...
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I normally watch the Ambos and if there is a VA in our area i normally have time to shower and shave before the pager goes off..... It normally takes 8 - 10 minutes here, i don't think that this acceptable. I notice that if CFS get the call first SAAS is responded normally no more than 2 minutes later??? What gives?
Sam
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Now I've got to say if you all thing that as a fire service that we should respond to all MVA's then good luck to all the fringe urban brigades and the MFS, cause you're workload would go through the roof, for no just cause. The large majority of SAAS responses to MVA accumulate to very little, and the above spoken incidences of timed responses is only a very small percentage.
In the initial call receipt from an accident scene, if there is even a sniff of something dangerous, any form of entrapment or encapsulation, or spillage then the fire service is automatically despatched. A large majority of MVA calls come from SAPOL comcen, and we receive these calls with very little information about scene safety, patient numbers, spillage etc. The other issue is the good samaritan who drives past an accident, who will call 000 on a mobile phone and only be able to give limited information, does this require a multi agency response??
I Would Have To Agree With JamesGar On This Point, Does Anyone Have The Numbers On How Many MVA's SAAS Get Responded To? I Believe If We Were To Get Called To Every Job Then The Pagers Would Be Going Off All Day. While I Admit That The Call Times For Us Can Be A Little Delayed, Which Is Not Good In An Emergency Situation, We Also Have To Think About The Amount Of Wasted Resources If We Are Responding To Minor Things. The Amount Of Minor MVA's I See Driving To Work Every Week That SAAS Are At, We Would All Be Kept Busy. Regarding Urban Areas I Don't Think Much Has To Change. I Feel That Its Your More Rural Areas That Need The Improvement. Where Response Times Are Large Because Of Travel Times, We Should Be Responded To Any MVA That Gets A Call.
BTW My 2 Cents.
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That's right cybercitizen all mva's in rural areas should have all three services responded because sometimes the ambulance can take 10 times longer than the fire service to arrive and at least fireys can stem a bleed or start CPR whilst they wait for ambo's. As for urban areas i don't think the call takers are asking the right questions to establish if any one is trapped or if there is a fire or oil spillage. If the correct info is obtained then there is more likelihood of the correct services being responded to start with.
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I do agree with James on not getting responded to all MVA's in the urban/metro area, However in the RCR resource directory it states that outside the Adelaide metro area fire/rescue, SAAS and SAPol must be responded to all MVA's but currently the attitude is "oh the caller said it's not too serious" so we'll wait until our crew arrives for a sitrep before responding other services.
But as I've said in previous posts i think the members of all services do a stellar job, it's just some areas need fixing and it wouldn't be all that hard to do.
And Sam if you read this you should take all SAAS pages off of your site then it might stop us (OK me mainly :wink:) having a whine about response times. :-P :-D
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I have been to lots of jobs when we have been called later.
I have also been to jobs where we have been first and a few times you think I wish the Ambo's we here now, sometimes you can only do the basics and 5 minutes is for ever
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I Wish They Would Stop Putting On The Pagers No One Trapped Or One Person Trapped Etc.
Is Should Just Say Rescue Respond. We Had One The Other Day, No One Trapped, When We Got To The Scene We Found Out That Someone Was Trapped.
Also We Had An MVA The Other Day That Our GO Said No Entrapments Take 24P, So We Started To Roll, Then Found Out That There Was Entrapments, So We Had To Go Back & Get Rescue. Then On The Way To The Job We Were Stop Called As No Entrapments. All That We Should Get Is Rescue Respond.
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We more often than not get responded over 20 min later and get told numerous people trapped. We get there and ambos have gone with people in the back then police arrive. No one trapped no one on scene just cars police and us.
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Cybercitizen, why did your GO tell you there was no one trapped, was he on scene or was he just going by what was on the pager and assumed it was correct ??
I think it's very dangerous to make calls about an incident if you are not on scene, I've heard GO's on the radio say to brigades responding to a grass fire " I can't see any smoke from my house, I think you can take a stop call, turned out to be a going grass fire".
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I Believe It Was Because Of What Was On The Pager.
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I Wish They Would Stop Putting On The Pagers No One Trapped Or One Person Trapped Etc.
Is Should Just Say Rescue Respond. We Had One The Other Day, No One Trapped, When We Got To The Scene We Found Out That Someone Was Trapped.
Also We Had An MVA The Other Day That Our GO Said No Entrapments Take 24P, So We Started To Roll, Then Found Out That There Was Entrapments, So We Had To Go Back & Get Rescue. Then On The Way To The Job We Were Stop Called As No Entrapments. All That We Should Get Is Rescue Respond.
isnt it common sense to roll a rescue truck to all MVAs??? its the reason rescue brigades are turned out!!!!! (supply rescue to other brigade area, supply fire and rescue to own area) rescue should never take a stop until there is a CFS prescence on scene...
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That Is Correct, However This Was Under The Request Of Our GO. Anyway There Was No Trapped In The End, However Yes It Should Just Say Respone To MVA, Nothing About No Entrapments. However I See That Info Having Its Good & Bad Points.
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the more info the better.. gives you an idea of what to expect.. the problem is how unreliable the public can be when calling in emergencies i think...
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what about when our own people dont even seem capable of doing it??
overheard this one on the scanner... echunga turned themselves out to MVA, didnt even notify SOCC to request rescue/saas/sapol until they were actually going mobile...
1908904 16:50:00 24-01-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: MT BARKER RESPOND MVA, CNR WEST ST & HIGH ST, ECHUNGA - CONTACT ECHUNGA FOR DETAILS - CAR VS MOTORCYCLE < 24/01/2006 16:49:47
1908906 16:43:00 24-01-06 ECHG: *CFSRES: RESPOND ECHUNGA STATION MANUAL TURNOUT 24-01-06 16:42
something wrong here...
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But do we really know the circumstances under which these things happen?
I mean we see the page and hear the scanner but maybe (as an example) they were at the station for a working bee and the local copper came across the road and said, "can you go to this?"
Just an example but I think it's a dangerous and unproductive exercise to second guess other Brigade's movements based on some overheard (over read) information.
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I dunno Kat, i think it points out some very interesting things... On all fronts...
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looks to me that the y found out about the accident at around 1643 and didnt tell state til 1650... how hard is it too make a phone call?
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Is it really that critical to tell SHQ prior to 7 minutes? 7 minutes is not very long. Maybe the crew got dressed and got going knowing a radio operator was on their way who would make the call? Maybe they did make the call straight away. Maybe lots of things really :-)
Anyway I'd be thrilled if, as the rescue response, we were called with in 7 minutes of the fire response Brigade. Bit better than what we normally get!
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7 minutes is quite a differance kat if rescue/sapol/saas (in particualar saas) are not notified within that time.. which im presuming is what happened..
but i have since spoken to some people and found out something interesting about that one which shouldnt be posted... (lets just say the opriginal manual turnout was for a tree down...)
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Anyway I'd be thrilled if, as the rescue response, we were called with in 7 minutes of the fire response Brigade. Bit better than what we normally get!
righto... :roll: since fire never roll without rescue im not sure what your on about here kat
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quote: since fire never roll without rescue im not sure what your on about here kat end quote
Yeah, right - tongue in cheek, huh?
As per discussion on htis forum that shows we're no orphans - as a rescue brigade we get called haphazardly to MVA's, sometimes not at all, sometimes aaaages later.
quote: 7 minutes is quite a differance kat if rescue/sapol/saas (in particualar saas) are not notified within that time.. which im presuming is what happened..end quote
In 16 years with a Brigade whose lion share of calls is MVA's I've never once been to an MVA where SAAS were not already advised. First on sceners tend not to call CFS for an accident, prefering SAPOL or SAAS,
I just think it's a bit harsh to discuss a Brigades perceived operational shortcomings on an open forum with limited information (although no doubt entertaining :wink:)
Times are a bit relative the further you get from the metro area - seven minutes is lightning speed not too far past here - be lucky to have anyone within fifteen minutes of many stations.
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canu post again kat, looks like something is missing....
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This was a quick despatching if I am interpreting the pager website correctly.
09:39:36 08-02-06 SHQ: CFSRES BLANCHETOWN CFS AND SES RESPOND MVA STURT HWY, BLANCHETOWN - 500M WEST OF BROOKSFIELD CONS. PARK - 1 ENTRAPMENT 2 CARS
09:39:16 08-02-06 BV84 Cat2 Sturt Hwy, Blanchetown
09:38:25 08-02-06 WK81 Cat2 Sturt Hwy, Blanchetown.
So it can be done.
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quote: since fire never roll without rescue im not sure what your on about here kat end quote
Yeah, right - tongue in cheek, huh?
As per discussion on htis forum that shows we're no orphans - as a rescue brigade we get called haphazardly to MVA's, sometimes not at all, sometimes aaaages later.
quote: 7 minutes is quite a differance kat if rescue/sapol/saas (in particualar saas) are not notified within that time.. which im presuming is what happened..end quote
In 16 years with a Brigade whose lion share of calls is MVA's I've never once been to an MVA where SAAS were not already advised. First on sceners tend not to call CFS for an accident, prefering SAPOL or SAAS,
I just think it's a bit harsh to discuss a Brigades perceived operational shortcomings on an open forum with limited information (although no doubt entertaining :wink:)
Times are a bit relative the further you get from the metro area - seven minutes is lightning speed not too far past here - be lucky to have anyone within fifteen minutes of many stations.
i personally disagree with most if not all of your post... if SOCC page anyone (and im pretty sure tailem bend get paged by SOCC) to an MVA they will send a rescue truck, it is in there SOPs
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quote: since fire never roll without rescue im not sure what your on about here kat end quote
Yeah, right - tongue in cheek, huh?
i personally disagree with most if not all of your post... if SOCC page anyone (and im pretty sure tailem bend get paged by SOCC) to an MVA they will send a rescue truck, it is in there SOPs
Disagree away - this is just what I have experienced.
I'm sure if there's an MVA and SOC is aware of it and is doing the paging, then yes, they would send a rescue vehicle as per SOPS (Green Book, Rescue Directory.
But as it would seem most people ring the police or ambos in event of MVA there are many, many occasions when we are not called at all (as either fire or rescue) or quite some time later when it's established that we're needed for whatever reason. And you're right though, since SOC has been doing the majority of call taking and despatching without the local ALERTS line inolved, there has been a lot less fire cover despatched without rescue.
There are many reasons for this. Mostly I think the local police are good people who try not to "bother" us unless they consider it essential.
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If you have an issue, lodge a greivence form, if you don't have any in station ring the region and ask for some, no point complaining unless you do something about it, and i can tell you, those forms do go somewhere!!
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Anyone noticed the cutdown in SAAS to CFS call times lately?????? Some are getting through in one minute!!!
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Must be having a good run. :wink:
Saw a page for Port Wkefield SAAS the other day that said Cat2-V/A but no one else was responded but as "radio" said there could be other circumstances.
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we've had a similar situation with our brigade. One night someones crashed and gone down an embankment. they've buggered off. and SAAS vehicle has seen the car and called us...eventually. the page was sent saying that SAAS needed help looking for victims. which leads me to believe that they have just walked down to an unstabilised car on an embankment and checked it out. Yet we'll probably get in s**t for not responding fast enough if something goes wrong.
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the problem sounds the same all over the state...I agree..one day they won't have called for fire cover and the car will catch alight...and we will still be at least 10-15 mins away..SAPOL can be just as bad...we call them straight away...
last time they called us to help them get to the casualty..it was in some inaccessible country...no need for fire cover..kid off a motorbike..
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We had an info night where we invited our Ambos over to the station. We expalined to them the dangers of just jumping into an unstabalised vehicle amongst other things. We also set an air bag off live (by a qualified person of course) and showed them some videos of what air bags can do if you are in the way. We don't have a problem with SAAS not responding us now :-D
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mengcfs, isn't a case of the people is SAAS comms taking time to respond us, rather than the ambo's themselves?
Also, does anyone know the average time it takes for MFS to dispatch us from the time of call? (Has anyone ever called a fire in, and taken note of the time it took for them to be paged?)
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I've called alerts once and through that process it took probably 2.5 minutes and recently called SOCC direct on response number and it took probably 1-1.5 minutes, but if you ring 000 and your group is run through alerts then you go to telstra then to MFS then to Alerts and it took about 5 minutes once a couple years back when i heard a MVA happen near my house.
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If i have to ever call in an emergency it would be either by UHF CB Radio or phone..... the reason i have chosen UHF CB as my first preference is because most CFS volunteers who are on the road going some where wether its to town or work tend to come across accidents or fires if they have a UHF CB in their vehicle can either call the group base or deputies by channel 5 or what ever channel that is used
Thus cutting the time it takes for alerts to go through SAAS or SAMFS communications centres before they reach pagers
Thats why everytime i go to town my UHF CB is on channel 5 so should i come across a RCR or fire a simple emergency call over channel 5 will do wonders even if no reply is given... if this doesnt work then a phone will be my back up
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best thing we can do as vollies if we come across an emergency, requiring CFS attendance, is call CFS SOCC direct. they can then instigate a CFS response (even if you are normally paged by SAMFS if you request it from them they will send it), and will also notify SAAS or SAPOL or both fro attendance...
If it is an incident in SAMFS area or a requirement for SAAS or SAPOL only, then obviously the best thing you can do is just ring triple zero.
Robert34;
personally i think UHF CB is a bad idea unless it is the4 only thing available... firstly it is possible that you wont be able to contact anyone, and also why would you do this when you could ring the service direct? even if your GO or group base does take the call from you they are still going to have to call CFS SOCC or ambos/sapol etc...
Thats why everytime i go to town my UHF CB is on channel 5 so should i come across a RCR or fire a simple emergency call over channel 5 will do wonders even if no reply is given... if this doesnt work then a phone will be my back up
if no reply is given then i would presume it hadnt worked and noone was coming...
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YEa, im with Medevac.. Phone.. !! Unless u are carrying GRN.. then call up soc on 124.
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I have come across a number of MVA's in the last few months and have called 000 and when asked for fire have been put throu to the local brigade or group H/Q and have had no problems getting a fast turn out from the local crews. I have also found that the staff at SOC will ask if police or ambulance have been called and if not they will contact them.
the on going problems of brigade's being paged well after the event is something that must be delt with and brigades need to fill in the paperwork/form that is around if you have been paged late for a job.. I have not seen this paperwork but i understand its out there...
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mengcfs, isn't a case of the people is SAAS comms taking time to respond us, rather than the ambo's themselves?
I realise this mate, but what it does ensure is that when the SAAS crew pager goes off and they contact their Comms for details they are now making sure CFS has been or is about to be responded. Maybe a different story in the city, where crews ie SAAS and CFS are not likely to know each other.
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YEa, im with Medevac.. Phone.. !! Unless u are carrying GRN.. then call up soc on 124.
Depending on what Region you are in!!
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YEa, im with Medevac.. Phone.. !! Unless u are carrying GRN.. then call up soc on 124.
Depending on what Region you are in!!
wtf??
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YEa, im with Medevac.. Phone.. !! Unless u are carrying GRN.. then call up soc on 124.
Depending on what Region you are in!!
I thought u can get soc on 124 no matter what region you are in ! ??
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SOCC have the ability to monitor every talkgroup. it dispalys as active on their PC's.... 124 is Region 1's talkgroup, so theoretically, other regions should use their own.
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124 is Region 1 operations. If you want to talk to state headquarters, use talkgroup 111 (State Ops). But as strikethird said, they monitor 124 anyway...
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aaahhh thats what was meant...
in theory you shouldnt talk to socc on tg111 at all..
every region has there own tg, you should use that.
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Sorry, i should explain.. I know every region has there own, but meant that even if u were in region 5, and keyed in 124, you would still be able to raise them..
But yes, you should use your own TG that are allocated to contact St HQ.
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Just curious, in R1 we contact SHQ on 124 when responding do the other regions contact SHQ on their regional talkgroups when responding or on Tg. 111 ???
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Reegion 3 use Regional talkgroup. It's not for resource tracking tho, just to acknowledge page and get further details if required.
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region one is the only region that does resource tracking with SOCC, and even then there are sturtr and kyeema group who do there own thing...
other regions occasionally go mobile on there regional tg, just as a notification to SOCC that they are responding, but will then immediately return to there local..
just a question to anyone outside R1... what happens if u go mobile and noone is at station, does your resource tracking get recorded somewhere? do you do resource tracking?
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Sorry, i should explain.. I know every region has there own, but meant that even if u were in region 5, and keyed in 124, you would still be able to raise them..
The CFS Region One talkgroups will only work in GRN Business Region One (slightly different to the CFS regions). Therefore if you tried to use 124 in CFS Region 5 your radio would display an 'Out of Range' message.
Best bet is to use the Regional talkgroup for the area you are in or State 111 which has Statewide coverage.
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region one is the only region that does resource tracking with SOCC, and even then there are sturtr and kyeema group who do there own thing...
other regions occasionally go mobile on there regional tg, just as a notification to SOCC that they are responding, but will then immediately return to there local..
just a question to anyone outside R1... what happens if u go mobile and noone is at station, does your resource tracking get recorded somewhere? do you do resource tracking?
If no one is at station when responding then yes, comms are thru SOCC on Regional talkgroup or RHQ if SOCC are busy. Once the station is open the log is faxed thru.
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Sorry, i should explain.. I know every region has there own, but meant that even if u were in region 5, and keyed in 124, you would still be able to raise them..
The CFS Region One talkgroups will only work in GRN Business Region One (slightly different to the CFS regions). Therefore if you tried to use 124 in CFS Region 5 your radio would display an 'Out of Range' message.
Best bet is to use the Regional talkgroup for the area you are in or State 111 which has Statewide coverage.
hmmm.. glad someone mentioned that !! Not such a bad thing to know ! :wink:
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1916015 09:05:21 10-03-06 RN81 Cat2 Murtho St, Renmark C241 G12
1915574 09:10:00 10-03-06 SHQ: *URGMSG: RENMARK SES UNIT RESPOND (MVA 15TH & MURTHO ROADS RENMARK > 10/03/2006 9:09:49 AM
1918616 09:41:50 10-03-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 10/03/06 09:09,MURTHO ST,RENMARK, MAP 0 0 0 ,,CNR FIFTEENTH ST,618*CFSRES:
well at least it not only happens to us
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15:08:56 13-04-06 AL81 Cat2 Foggo Rd, Mclaren Flat 207 N9
15:15:02 13-04-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: MCLAREN VALE AND ALDINGA BEACH RESPOND MVA - KANGARILLA RD, MCLAREN VALE, CNR FOGGO RD - 2 VEHICLES < 13/04/2006 15:14:46
......And seven minutes later :-o :?
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15:15:44 30-05-06 MU81 Cat2 Cnr Dukes Hwy, Tailem Bend POLICE REQUIRED
HM3 Cat2 Cnr Dukes Hwy, Tailem Bend POLICE REQUIRED
And 13 minutes later........
15:29:44 30-05-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: TALEM BEND RESPOND MVA SINGLE VEHICLE ACCIDENT CORNER MALLEE HIGHWAY AND DUKES HIGHWAY TALEM BEND < 30/05/2006 3:29:31 PM
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this is not good and its getting worse,now that I have made up my mind with CAD I think the only way for it to work is that there are two cad centres run by safecom and not ses/cfs/mfs as there are too many problems with some and I do mean some people in these centres. I for one would like to see SA go like the emergency service's in victoria,there is only a TAC member at the centre who makes sure that each service's SOPS are followed and that is all... would it work?? yes as long as the people running the place are independent and that all services have input in how to dispatch their service......
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We are getting much better response times now.... Less than 2 minutes. Myabe you should say something?
Sam
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Thats true blinky we should have 2 cad centers run by safecom rather than just one run by ses,cfs&mfs
I think that safecom should reopen South East Comms in Mount Gambier so there can be 2 cad communications centers rather than just the one run by Adelaide staff cause its casuing confusion like you said
When i was just starting out as a fire fighter after turning 16 allowing me to go on the truck South East Commsused to handle all 000 call outs for CFS,SES&SAAS in the Gambier & Wattle Range divisions where as now we have to call SHQ or our group base
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When SE Comms was around things were a whole lot easier. We had local people responding local people so everyone knew what was what and where was where.
Less Confusion and quicker response times
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You hit the nail on the head there camo it was alot easier as when an emergency requiring CFS response occured one simple page was sent out from SE Comms and it would go to the closest brigade or brigades
Now if an emergency happens you would get 3 pager messages one after the other saying different bits of information rather than the big picture
I reckon that safecom should look at reopening SE Comms for SAAS,SES & CFS callouts to avoid confusion and get quicker response times even though SOC does a real good job with getting pager messages sent to brigades :-D
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This is a little off topic but
we have had numerous times where for some reason when being paged by MFS Comms the group officers have recieved the page but not the brigade..
whether there is a glitch in the system or they just forget to add the brigade im not sure but yeah can cause a delay of 10 mins easily. Not good if someone is dying.
Camo
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hmm sounds odd.... i dont think MFS are meant to be paging any R5 brigades anyway.
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It was my understanding that the paging group that the MFS use for responses includes the GO's. ie, they shouldn't be paging GO's separately, the GO's should get the page with the responded brigade...
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Medevac it has something to do with the way the alerts system is setup down here i think.
anywhere within say 5km of the city of mount gambier is classified as a mt gambier number therefore goes to the mfs rather then the cfs alerts system.
although i have seen them page brigades such as bordertown before and they are like 200km away.
And im not sure how they do it all i know is that they have stuffed a few up in there time.
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mmm i understand that camo, but i was under the impression that Mets actually had a directive that for any CFS turnouts down that way they were to phone the respective brigades alerts... speak to socc & locals, although im all for getting the fastest turnout possible...
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When we had SE Comms doing all Mount Gambier & District CFS Reponses the closest brigade would be paged in just under a couple of minutes where as now its alot different
While our response time maybe pretty quick now that SOC is sending out the pages you do get the odd delay in response messages being sent
I know that SAFECOM figured it would be for the best to centralise all paging to SOC in Adelaide but there would be an advantage if to say that SE Comms was reopened/restablished so when ever the paging/radio network goes down in Adelaide South East Comms would serve as a backup operations centre
Why not setup the SAAS Mount Gambier Station communications room as a CFS & SES Opps Support HQ manned by comms crew from CFS or SES
Sorry if i went off topic but i had to get this all off my chest :-)
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i think your talking out your donkey mate
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His "donkey"? :?
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instead of his mouth... didnt get filtered did it...
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I think Rob means:
* re-establish the South East Communications Centre so that it covers 'Call Receipt & Dispatch' (CRD) for emergency services in SE SA, thus using local knowledge in the operators.
* SE Centre would be a redundancy to SAFECOM's future CRD in Adelaide.
Currently SES have a volunteer Regional Ops crew in the South East as well as the State HQ based crew. The Regional Ops crews are being established at other centres.
Redundancy of Adelaide SCC is Enfield LHQ, Noarlunga LHQ and Murray Bridge LHQ.
I would believe redundancies for Adelaide SAFECOM CRD will be established when the centre is finalised.
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One of the major problems with establishing & maintaining a fully computerised CRD is that they require to be connected to the dedicated fibre-optics communications loop for voice and data. The loop currently connects the buildings of SAAS ComCen, SAPOL ComCen/SEOC, MFS ComCen/SES SCC and SAGRN centre.
From my understanding the fibre-loop costs a hell of a lot of money each month to be expanded to other locations.
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the only commcen in the SE was SAAS, which has never paged CFS brigades... and they closed down (as well as NW comms)so that they could centralise comms there comms in Adelaide.
and robert im pretty sure noone has any idea how long it takes to do a response via SOCC or any other means, without actually being on the line waiting for the page. just going by the paging decoders doesnt mean scheiße.
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All we rely on is the wonderful pager scanner... How about, its NOT SAAS causing the delay? Yesterday MFS comcen took 5 minutes to respond a brigade we asked for. According to the pager scanner that is. Our fixed alarm panel takes over a minute to dial up and page out for a fixed alarm. No need to go blaming one service over another for seomthing that wasnt an issue before the pager scanner :D
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....No need to go blaming one service over another for something that wasn't an issue before the pager scanner :D
So true. Extra information can cause further questions and problems.
But then I believe we should always strive to do our tasks better, safer and quicker.
Extra information can provide where something needs improving, as long as people do not take the question personally or as a specific criticism. Everyone makes mistakes or something goes wrong to the process.
If questions are given and received constructively, then give me more information so we can identify and improve the system/process.
Oh well, another year plus to wait before SACAD eventuates :roll:
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the only commcen in the SE was SAAS, which has never paged CFS brigades... and they closed down (as well as NW comms)so that they could centralise comms there comms in Adelaide.
Then what were those pages i used to recieve from SE Comms? Must be aliens impersonating humans!
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could be :wink:
decided to eat my own words, after consulting a more reliable source, seems SE saas comms did "despatch" certain LSE brigades....
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Its too bad we cant go back to our old methods of dispatching brigades :-)
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Its too bad we cant go back to our old methods of dispatching brigades :-)
"oi Bluey, I can see smoke over near Snowy's paddock"
'stone the filtered crows, doesnt look to good'
"nah mate, we better go grab the tanker and deal with it, give Noddy a buzz on the dog and bone he can bring his new pump over"
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I meant the fire phone system PF
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I know you meant somethng like that but I decided to give a smart arse reply to your post instead of the logical answer such as pagers or phones etc, thats just boring. :-)
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The old system doesnt work too well for those of us who cant hear the siren from where we live!
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Thats where the fire phones come in Toast :P
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Back when we had our fire phone system my dad had one of the main phones since he was communications officer
Lately i have been thinking that now most of us use call diversion when we go out all calls go from house phone to mobile would it be possible to use call divert on the fire phone system if it were to be brought back cause i have 3 siren ringtones on my mobile that would be used by me :-D
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....all calls go from house phone to mobile would it be possible to use call divert on the fire phone system ...
How often do you go out of mobile telephone range and then the call goes to your voice message system ?
That would not be good for an emergency call.
For all its problems, the SAGRN pager system at least lets many people know of the emergency call very quickly. Thus if one person is 'out of range'and does not receive the pager, the others who do receive the page can respond.
Will be interesting to see if chnages happen when SAGRN is re-leased.
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you are required to enter a code before the system will let you listen in.
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Thats where the fire phones come in Toast :P
ERS 7 Is only for the officers :(
The rest of us have to use the siren
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But still Toast it wouldnt hamr to have the fire phone system so if the pager is out of range and the mobile phone isnt then people can respond regardless of how they are paged
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As i said, the ERS 7 Is only for the officers...
By the fire phone system, I assue you *dont* mean ALERTS and mean the ERS 7 system?
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We have 6 members in the brigade to have the alerts phone connected to mobiles. We have any members no matter what rank offers or not. So far no one has missed a call
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I would love for my prepaid phone to have the Alerts system connected to it so if i dont hear my pager sound chances are my phone will alert me
Its a known fact that up in QLD some brigades there dont have pagers or paging systems as all their callouts are sent via sms to their mobile phones
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As i said, the ERS 7 Is only for the officers...
By the fire phone system, I assue you *dont* mean ALERTS and mean the ERS 7 system?
ERS7 hasn't existed for the last couple of years - according to telstra. In reality the last brigades will be off it soon now.
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It still cracks the shits for our fixed alarms :P
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For some info that don't know, the ALERTS system runs a tiered dialing system. Where you can enter different numbers after so many rings. So Robert you can have your home phone for three sets of tiers, then it could ring you mobile straight away. Saves diverts and crap..
Sam
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You are right on the money with that SAM its just like cal diversion if someone rings my home number and nobody answers then the call goes right to my mobile number
If the same is done with Alerts system then whoever gets a fire phonecall via their mobile all they have to do is activate the station siren by dialing a cetain code and sending it like a phone call
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I must of suffered from those same "alien" pages as well Camo.
SAAS did do our call taking and paging for our station.
Regards, Mat
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It still cracks the filtered for our fixed alarms :P
not for much longer! (if it's ERS7 we are still talking about)
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wont be too long and SOC will be looking after all those fixed alarm panels and at last I can return some brigade station keys.......
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ive already eaten my words re; saas paging brigades camo and mat, after consulting a more reliable source.
re; ers7 - this system was discontinued by telstra, and the new alerts offered to replace it. this was several years ago i believe...
and on the issue of diverts to mobiles not being answered, this is exactly why SOCC are involved in every alerts call and also for the paging side of things...
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I know that they did look at sending sms instead of a paging system but the providers couldn't guarantee the timeframe for delivery..think about how often a sms takes forever to get to you sometimes...not ideal when we want brigades responding...hence, we have pagers...
We have many different people linked to the alerts system...not all officers...if someone doesn't pick up..including RO...SHQ picks up as well..nothing gets missed as far as I know... :-)
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Getting back on topic - it seems that the situation hasn't really improved much.
I have seen some shitty response times from SAAS lately with this one occuring this afternoon.
17:57:08 24-06-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 OH81 Cat2 Cnr Kenihans Rd, Happy Valley 177 E1 POLICE REQUIRED
17:57:10 24-06-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 OH81 Cat2 Cnr Kenihans Rd, Happy Valley 177 E1 POLICE REQUIRED
17:57:44 24-06-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 OH81 Cat2 Cnr Kenihans Rd, Happy Valley 177 E1 POLICE REQUIRED
17:57:55 24-06-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 M171 Cat2 Cnr Kenihans Rd, Happy Valley 177 E1 POLICE REQUIRED
17:59:29 24-06-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 N75 Cat2 Cnr Kenihans Rd, Happy Valley 177 E1 POLICE REQUIRED
18:06:21 24-06-06 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 24/06/06 18:04,CHANDLERS HILL RD,HAPPY VALLEY, MAP 165 H 8 ,,CNR KENIHANS RD SPILL ONLY,421 8032*CFSRES:
Ambos despatched this job as having persons trapped and responded three of their own cars but for some reason waited until the first Ambo arrived and specifically requested 'Firies' before responding any fire service (as it turns out there was no one trapped).
This is just plain sloppy work by them :x
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This is just plain sloppy work by them
dont be too hasty mate, just as likely to be SAPOLs fault... might be worth Happy Valley making a couple of phone calls and lodging a greivance form.... but on the other hand its MFS area.
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better still listen to a GRN scanner and if its in your area call it in,I here a few brigades south od the city do that????
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i wouldnt go doing that... maybe go out to the adress (if your that hardcore) confirm that it is there, then call it in...
if you have misheard it, there is always the possibility of getting yourself in the scheiße for an MFA or what have you... as call centres have ability to get CLI.
i thought about doing this yesterday, when i saw ambos page to a call in our area, heard them on scanner, saw ambulance and two cop cars go flying past... so i went and took a look, by the time i got there the car was gone, around 5 mins later.... now, if i had gone and called it in, then i would have looked like a filtered and wasted my brigades time... lol. i mean sure, SAPOL or SAAS should have called fire service upon reciept of the call by them, but you know what im getting at...
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That is true,but the only soloution is a independent call center that is able to take the call and dispatch all services...Yes it does happen .....
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The CFS are as bad, in terms of OIC's turning out other appliances at times. Ive seen/heard numerous occasions where brigade pride has taken precedence over getting appropriate resources to the scene at the earliest convenience.
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^^hear hear
not to mention other services
was at a job once (flooding/salvage) where we required the SES due to the fact they carruy a wet/dry vac, and our group base didnt wanty to turn them out, querying why we couldnt finish the job ourselves.... took a while but we finally got them to play ball.
as you said toast, all comes back to pride.
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Its simple.. If your group base / station will not action the Request of the I/C .. go over them..... " State Headquarters..."
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I'm also talking about the IC themselves on the fireground...
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Its simple.. If your group base / station will not action the Request of the I/C .. go over them..... " State Headquarters..."
i fully agree strike, and its exaclt what i would do if i ever had issues again...
but can you imagine the titty tantrums that would occur afterwards...?
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Yea, thats it.. Altho you would have a fairly strong case if they refused your request for no justified reason.
If it happens you give your mate striker a call and he will give them an ear bashing :D
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hahahahaha roger that
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*cough* that was just "Roger" wasn't it? we all imagined that "that" at the end ;)
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:wink:
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Lately I have noticed 'what I thought' was reasonably quick passing of incident information between the different Comcens. But something might have gone wrong....
15:07:44 30-06-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 30/06/06 15:05,KAPUNDA DISTRICT TOWN,KAPUNDA DISTRICT, MAP 0 0 0 ,,STH OF KAPUNDA NEAR BRIDGE SAAS IN ATT,75829*CFSRES:
15:06:14 30-06-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 30/06/06 15:04,KAPUNDA DISTRICT TOWN,KAPUNDA DISTRICT, MAP 0 0 0 ,,MAIN RD STH KAPUNDA NEAR BRIDGE SAAS ON SCENE,2348*CFSRES:
15:05:55 30-06-06 KAPD: RESPOND KAPUNDA STATION SIREN MANUALLY ACTIVATED CFSRES
15:01:12 30-06-06 SHQ: CFSRES KAPUNDA RESPOND MVA THIELE HWY, KAPUNDA - NEAR THE BRIDGE < 30/06/2006 15:01:00
14:35:25 30-06-06 BV84 Cat2 Thiele Hwy, Kapunda POLICE REQUIRED
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Yeah we had a job the other night and there was a 15 minute difference between SAAS and us getting called, the bloke had absconded from the scene but the car was leaking LPG???
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More often than not in our response area we only hear about vehicle accidents that SAAS attend when one of our members frives past and sees them there and we respond ourselves
Does fire cover and stabilisation mean nothing to these people.
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What brigade are you from?
Respond yourself, did you buy some flashing lights to stick on the roof of your car and make siren noises "whee aw whee aw wheeaw woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wooo wooo woo woo wee wee wiouw" :roll: :-P
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Lately I have noticed 'what I thought' was reasonably quick passing of incident information between the different Comcens. But something might have gone wrong....
15:07:44 30-06-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 30/06/06 15:05,KAPUNDA DISTRICT TOWN,KAPUNDA DISTRICT, MAP 0 0 0 ,,STH OF KAPUNDA NEAR BRIDGE SAAS IN ATT,75829*CFSRES:
15:06:14 30-06-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 30/06/06 15:04,KAPUNDA DISTRICT TOWN,KAPUNDA DISTRICT, MAP 0 0 0 ,,MAIN RD STH KAPUNDA NEAR BRIDGE SAAS ON SCENE,2348*CFSRES:
15:05:55 30-06-06 KAPD: RESPOND KAPUNDA STATION SIREN MANUALLY ACTIVATED CFSRES
15:01:12 30-06-06 SHQ: CFSRES KAPUNDA RESPOND MVA THIELE HWY, KAPUNDA - NEAR THE BRIDGE < 30/06/2006 15:01:00
14:35:25 30-06-06 BV84 Cat2 Thiele Hwy, Kapunda POLICE REQUIRED
unfortunately the MFS system isnt capable of handling road names for all areas of the state... at this stage, so more than likely the info was passed on via landline.
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can't the just type in the name??? or is there gear too old to do that..............
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my understanding is that the street name and suburb/town has to verify in the system or it either wont work or just wont send appropriate resources...
from what i understand it is being worked on. this is why we contacntly see;
RESPOND RCR; KAPUNDA TOWN, KAPUNDA
or
RESPOND RCR; MEADOWS CFS, MEADOWS
etc etc
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I see,now I know when we get paged from the MFS that it has no info .....
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yeh, usually theyll try to put some extra info in the "otes" part of the msg.
saw Naracoorte get paged by MFS the other day, thought it had the correct street name and suburb in the right place???
MFS arent meant paging you guys (r5) anyway.
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It was 000 call and yep it had the correct information,for once.
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What brigade are you from?
Respond yourself, did you buy some flashing lights to stick on the roof of your car and make siren noises "whee aw whee aw wheeaw woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wooo wooo woo woo wee wee wiouw" :roll: :-P
I dont think thats wise PF the only way you can respond to an RCR in your own vehicle is if you happen to come across a Car Accident before SAAS,SACFS or SAPOL know about it :-)
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you can do whatever you like in a nufty brigade :wink:
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Lately I have noticed 'what I thought' was reasonably quick passing of incident information between the different Comcens. But something might have gone wrong....
15:07:44 30-06-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 30/06/06 15:05,KAPUNDA DISTRICT TOWN,KAPUNDA DISTRICT, MAP 0 0 0 ,,STH OF KAPUNDA NEAR BRIDGE SAAS IN ATT,75829*CFSRES:
15:06:14 30-06-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 30/06/06 15:04,KAPUNDA DISTRICT TOWN,KAPUNDA DISTRICT, MAP 0 0 0 ,,MAIN RD STH KAPUNDA NEAR BRIDGE SAAS ON SCENE,2348*CFSRES:
15:05:55 30-06-06 KAPD: RESPOND KAPUNDA STATION SIREN MANUALLY ACTIVATED CFSRES
15:01:12 30-06-06 SHQ: CFSRES KAPUNDA RESPOND MVA THIELE HWY, KAPUNDA - NEAR THE BRIDGE < 30/06/2006 15:01:00
14:35:25 30-06-06 BV84 Cat2 Thiele Hwy, Kapunda POLICE REQUIRED
unfortunately the MFS system isnt capable of handling road names for all areas of the state... at this stage, so more than likely the info was passed on via landline.
Actually my worry was that the SAAS page is timed at 1435 & the CFS page is timed at 1501. That is 26 minutes difference.
Between CFS SOCC & MFS Comcen was 5 minutes.
Maybe other emergency services were activated via a different method than the GRN pagers. :|
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Between CFS SOCC & MFS Comcen was 5 minutes.
could be all sorts of reasons for that. personalyl i have called triple zero asked for fire and spoken directly to the commcen for a job. hung up and still waited three minutes for the page to actually get to me. :?
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could be all sorts of reasons for that. personalyl i have called triple zero asked for fire and spoken directly to the commcen for a job. hung up and still waited three minutes for the page to actually get to me. :?
Ever called in an MVA and waited 26 minutes for the page to come through? I think thats the concern here, isn't it Andrew?
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Oh dear...
my point is that it tooke several minutes for the fire service to be responded, even though they got the initial call...
nevermind the whole SAPOL getting original call, then passing to saas several minutes later, then someone telling fire when they feel like it.
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Roger, point taken... :)
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We called the MFS to page SES one night to tarp a roof....took them 50mins to page them....must have called during the smoko break.
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LOL,should have just got SOCC to page them :evil:
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hahahaha aaah dear.
that was the good thing about SOCC paging them, just change the radio TG call SOCC and they paged them , bang, straight away
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So I wounder how that will go when we go to MFS paging?? I guess I will no longer be able to call via radio and say page xyz brigade.... :-(
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Why not? The initial page may come from MFS, yet further requests for resources can come from SOC?
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we will wait and see but I would say it will be sometime before we get CAD down here.......
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i believe SOCC is meant to be remaining functional in one for m or other...
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Kool I dont mind talking to socc staff..
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This was in another thread, just to clear some confusion. I draw your attention to the last paragraph..............
THE SACAD PROJECT:
SACAD Info sessions are currently occuring in Regions 1 and 2. Other Regions will follow shortly.
The transition of all CFS brigades to a centralized 000 Call Receipt and Dispatch (CRD) will occur over the next 2 years as the major part of the SACAD project.
Each brigade will need to define its brigade response area and determine it resources depending on incident type.
Before any changes take place, the transition team (involving CFS staff, a SACAD Project Officer and a GIS expert) will visit groups to establish brigade response areas, verify street data and ask any questions in involved with the transition meetings.
As part of the transition process the only response number that will now appear on fire stations, fire trucks, newsletters, telephone directories, websites and any publications is 000.
A Service Level Agreement (SLA) will be established with the Metropolitan Fire Service (MFS) for the management of CRD for CFS brigades. This agreement will soon be available to volunteers for comment.
The transition plan to 000 has been finalized and will impact on all CFS brigades and groups across the State.
In relation to the transition.
The first brigades to make the transition are from Regions 1 and 2, with the change to occur in the next 2 years.
Brigades who are currently dispatched through the MFS communications centre will also be need to redefine their response areas by using
"The right response, at the right location, at the right time to deal with the incident in the right way"
The State Operations Call Centre (formally SOC) will still operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week and will continue to communicate with brigades as they do now. The ALERTS will remain albeit in an altered configuration.
I will keep informing everyone via the Volunteer.
If you need any further information please call me at CFS HQ 08 8463 4200
Gary Bau
CFS Communications Coordinator
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You think the fire service would be called to this :?
14:47:54 09-07-06 MB81 Cat2 Shady Grove Rd, Macclesfield 998/o33 CHEMICAL HAZARD R994024.
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Had a friend in a MVA Saturday night. SAAS was called at 00:37. Not one other agency was called. About half an hour later he was choppered out with severe leg injuries. Well done SAAS, lucky for you no one was trapped and fire wasn't imminent. :x
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It will happen one day when they don't call for fire cover and the vehicle catches on fire....and then they will have to wait and watch helplessly as their crew and victims are in danger...I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.. :-(
I expect that it will only need to happen once and their SOP's will change...sad that it may be the cost of a life before it's implemented!
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Mengcfs i think an incident like this needs to be followed through with a complaint to SAAS. I'm sure most people will agree that it is very serious and it needs to be followed up. :x
I hope your friend has a speedy recovery. :-)
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Yes, a letter wil be going to Region. Prehaps if we all did this when it occurs (or if we even know it occurs - ok for small towns) we may get somewhere with SAAS.
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You think the fire service would be called to this :?
14:47:54 09-07-06 MB81 Cat2 Shady Grove Rd, Macclesfield 998/o33 CHEMICAL HAZARD R994024.
Perhaps the chemical hazard was drugs??
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^ Aggress with Ath.
Could have been a Px with symptopms of a chemical ingested during work hours who then went home?? Could have been burnt / inhaled a chemical somewhere during the day which is causing irritation now and Comms are advising crews to be warey(sp) of the symptoms / contamination from patient..??
Who knows.
Think we need to avoid alot of speculation..
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Had a friend in a MVA Saturday night. SAAS was called at 00:37. Not one other agency was called. About half an hour later he was choppered out with severe leg injuries. Well done SAAS, lucky for you no one was trapped and fire wasn't imminent. :x
RCR greivance form!
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This really is out of control............
10:35:12 23-08-06 SB81 Cat2 Woorong St, Calca POLICE REQUIRED
10:35:41 23-08-06 NW5 Cat3 Woorong St, Calca POLICE REQUIRED
10:40:37 23-08-06 EL81 Cat2 Woorong St, Calca POLICE REQUIRED
And from initial call......32 minutes later
11:07:16 23-08-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: CALCA RESPOND MVA WOORONG STREET CALCA. 2 CAR MVA NO ENTRAPMENTS SAAS ON SCENE < 23/08/2006 11:07:05
And SES......37 minutes later
11:12:35 23-08-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 23/08/06 11:12,CALCA CFS,CALCA, MAP 0 0 0 ,,2 VEHICLE ACCIDENT. CASUALTIES UNKNOWN,78129*CFSRES:
11:19:56 23-08-06 SHQ: CFSRES: STREAKY BAY RESPOND MVA, WOORONG-BOOLONG ROAD & DRINANVALE ROAD, NEAR CALCA, 2 CARS ***DEFAULT FOR CALCA*** > 23/08/2006 11:19:44 AM
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and to think that SAFECOM was created to bring 3 of the services a bit closer together...wonder how we can get SAPOL and SAAS to play with us properly too..you have highlighted what we deal with all the time over here on EP meng...one day, it will cost someone...hope we aren't involved.. :x
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Thats Just Pathetic, I Mean If That Was Me Involved In That Accident I Would Be Looking To Fine Out Why It Took Rescue Crews So Long To Be Responded, Considering The Travel Distance Required I Would Expect Rescue To Be Responded Straight Away.
If It Was Somewhere Local Like The City Where Ambos Get Heaps Of Calls & Call Us When Needed Then I Could See It But For Something Like That I Think Is Just Wrong & There Should Be Someone Investigating What Happened.
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It has been said before, but why not say it again. - Outside of the Metro area, all 3 agencies / resources are to be responded within the first instance. If this does not occur for what ever means, lodge an RCR grievance form.. No use bitchin on here about it. Take action, lodge the forms, and hope for a positive and successful outcome !
CC
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And another one tonight, Berri SES,MFS and Barmera SES responded to MVA Barmera when it was realised that berri were mistakenly responded it took another 15 minutes for Barmera CFS to be responded. :x
I just don't get it i know greivance forms are the way to go but how about a joint meeting is held and then something is done about it then and there and not wait for the usual politics to play out????
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This really is out of control............
10:35:12 23-08-06 SB81 Cat2 Woorong St, Calca POLICE REQUIRED
10:35:41 23-08-06 NW5 Cat3 Woorong St, Calca POLICE REQUIRED
10:40:37 23-08-06 EL81 Cat2 Woorong St, Calca POLICE REQUIRED
And from initial call......32 minutes later
11:07:16 23-08-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: CALCA RESPOND MVA WOORONG STREET CALCA. 2 CAR MVA NO ENTRAPMENTS SAAS ON SCENE < 23/08/2006 11:07:05
And SES......37 minutes later
11:12:35 23-08-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 23/08/06 11:12,CALCA CFS,CALCA, MAP 0 0 0 ,,2 VEHICLE ACCIDENT. CASUALTIES UNKNOWN,78129*CFSRES:
11:19:56 23-08-06 SHQ: CFSRES: STREAKY BAY RESPOND MVA, WOORONG-BOOLONG ROAD & DRINANVALE ROAD, NEAR CALCA, 2 CARS ***DEFAULT FOR CALCA*** > 23/08/2006 11:19:44 AM
There are perhaps two issues here. One is the time taken for the relevent service to call the fire service. The thing we don't know from the page, is what information the Ambulance and / or Police were given, in relation to this crash. It may well be that the occupants have called the police, and advised they had been in a minor crash, and there were no injuries. As a matter of course, the Ambos are advised - even though the info given to Police says no injuries, everyone out of the vehicle etc.
The call for CFS might well have been to come and clean up the small oil spill after the tow truck had moved the vehicle.....we don't know, because that info was not on the pager message.
The other issue is the time taken to page each of the fire / rescue services. As I read this one, it is less of Comms Centres paging the wrong people, or the wrong people being called, or services not calling other services, and more of a default for the first responded service, who either didn't respond quickly enough, or didn't tell their Comms they had responded, and the next closest resource was dispatched, and the same thing happened, so the next closest resource was dispatched and so on.
Reading through these posts, people are making assumptions on what has occurred at some of these scenes, without knowing the facts.
There are obviously times when particular services were not responded perhaps as they should have been.
But, I am sure people would get very sick of being responded to crashes, and always been stopped called, because the people have got back into their vehicles after exchange details, and driven off...
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^ I agree pip, avoiding speculation, and acting on fact, and acting on the correct and procedural(sp) way is the key to fixing anything..
Unfortunately by the response, that being 2 cars and a North West TL (NW5), I wouldn't want to speculate in assuming the Fire Service should have been responded... :-P
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There are perhaps two issues here. One is the time taken for the relevent service to call the fire service. The thing we don't know from the page, is what information the Ambulance and / or Police were given, in relation to this crash. It may well be that the occupants have called the police, and advised they had been in a minor crash, and there were no injuries. As a matter of course, the Ambos are advised - even though the info given to Police says no injuries, everyone out of the vehicle etc.
If Police/Ambos are advised shouldn't it be auto response of the appropriate agencies as per the RCR directory? or do we call who we want these days?
The call for CFS might well have been to come and clean up the small oil spill after the tow truck had moved the vehicle.....we don't know, because that info was not on the pager message.
C'mon....surely that info would be on the page. Our OCO's work pretty well to ensure the Brigades responding are well informed. And prehaps a priority two might have been in order if that was the case.
The other issue is the time taken to page each of the fire / rescue services. As I read this one, it is less of Comms Centres paging the wrong people, or the wrong people being called, or services not calling other services, and more of a default for the first responded service, who either didn't respond quickly enough, or didn't tell their Comms they had responded, and the next closest resource was dispatched, and the same thing happened, so the next closest resource was dispatched and so on.
Agree
But, I am sure people would get very sick of being responded to crashes, and always been stopped called, because the people have got back into their vehicles after exchange details, and driven off...
Yes we don't like chasing calls. I suppose the more urban Brigades get sick of that as it probably happens all the time. From my neck of the woods when we get a job it generally is a 'going' job. So not being called, for everyones safety, peeves me off.
You're right it is all speculation but after reading and speaking to many people, apart from the colossal amount of incidents our Brigade has been directly involved with, and know the facts, that this is happening and it is not right. Grievence forms have been lodged. I don't see it as "bitchin" but more so information sharing. Isn't that what this forum is about?
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Pip, I had a whinge about this in another thread and was told, regardless of what the caller says to police/fire/ambulance they still HAVE to respond Rescue, Fire, Police and Ambulance immediately to ANY job, so there is no excuse for not doing it.
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Pip, I had a whinge about this in another thread and was told, regardless of what the caller says to police/fire/ambulance they still HAVE to respond Rescue, Fire, Police and Ambulance immediately to ANY job, so there is no excuse for not doing it.
That's exactly right otherwise agencies would be responding or not responding whoever they liked and the RCR directory might as well be thrown out the window. There are MOU's for a reason.
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Pip, I had a whinge about this in another thread and was told, regardless of what the caller says to police/fire/ambulance they still HAVE to respond Rescue, Fire, Police and Ambulance immediately to ANY job, so there is no excuse for not doing it.
That definitely isn't happening....have you seen it in writing?
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I believe its in the RCR directory... See the discussion on Response SOP's (http://www.safirefighter.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=53&topic=715.0)... (note Rusty's post halfway down)
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Pip, I had a whinge about this in another thread and was told, regardless of what the caller says to police/fire/ambulance they still HAVE to respond Rescue, Fire, Police and Ambulance immediately to ANY job, so there is no excuse for not doing it.
That definitely isn't happening....have you seen it in writing?
Would have thought with your background you would have been familiar with the RCR directory. It makes for an interesting read when you consider what happens in reality...
There is no excuse for failing to resopond the appropriate fire & rescue resources, and really there are a lot of emergency services dispatchers that should be getting bashed across the head and penalised in some for m or other...
The other issue is the time taken to page each of the fire / rescue services. As I read this one, it is less of Comms Centres paging the wrong people, or the wrong people being called, or services not calling other services, and more of a default for the first responded service, who either didn't respond quickly enough, or didn't tell their Comms they had responded, and the next closest resource was dispatched, and the same thing happened, so the next closest resource was dispatched and so on
im not 100% sure what you are getting at with this comment.... im still half asleep, but from reading this response it seems to me that SOCC have responded the appropriate fire cover, and phone MFS for SES response.... they then defaulted the brigade after no acknowledgement..... no issue there. As i said though, not 100% on what ya mean...
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Pip, I had a whinge about this in another thread and was told, regardless of what the caller says to police/fire/ambulance they still HAVE to respond Rescue, Fire, Police and Ambulance immediately to ANY job, so there is no excuse for not doing it.
That definitely isn't happening....have you seen it in writing?
Would have thought with your background you would have been familiar with the RCR directory. It makes for an interesting read when you consider what happens in reality...
There is no excuse for failing to resopond the appropriate fire & rescue resources, and really there are a lot of emergency services dispatchers that should be getting bashed across the head and penalised in some for m or other...
I know of the RCR directory...but working where I do, I am at the pointy end, not the dispatch end, hence don't get to see it....haven't had the opportunity to look at it for some time....I reckon last time I was able to see a copy, the only bits I saw set out which was the nearest fire service / nearest rescue service / unit / police station / ambulance service to specific locations....... nothing that I can remember reading about saying when the various services were to be called. It may have been there, but I don't remember it.....although I suspect things have been updated a lot since then.....perhaps an MOU was signed( I figure it must exist, but I haven't seen it! )
The other issue is the time taken to page each of the fire / rescue services. As I read this one, it is less of Comms Centres paging the wrong people, or the wrong people being called, or services not calling other services, and more of a default for the first responded service, who either didn't respond quickly enough, or didn't tell their Comms they had responded, and the next closest resource was dispatched, and the same thing happened, so the next closest resource was dispatched and so on
im not 100% sure what you are getting at with this comment.... im still half asleep, but from reading this response it seems to me that SOCC have responded the appropriate fire cover, and phone MFS for SES response.... they then defaulted the brigade after no acknowledgement..... no issue there. As i said though, not 100% on what ya mean...
That is basically what I typed.... :-)
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With all the discussion re this topic, and some thoughts etc that all services should be responded to all reported crashes, does anyone know how many reported road crashes there are in a year?
Anyone want to have a guess?
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lots...
:lol:
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It would have to be in the 5 digit range.. Its very hard to find info on the internet though, unless you just want the death toll... :|
How many is it, Pipster?
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Interesting one this afternoon...
Motorcycle crash this arvo somewhere near nairne?
took 25mins for cfs to be called. then when they were responded they responded three brigades barker, nairne and brukunga i think.
saas then said there is no need for three trucks but cfs wouldnt stop call anyone until a cfs truck arrived on scene.
hmmm weird
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thats the way things work though unfortunately mate....
SAAS call us late so were already behind the ball lol, then the set response for a VA that area is those three resources... all gets bigger than ben hur for a single motorbike.... :wink:
its been bashed elsewhere though that we dont generally take stops from other agencies... obviously with the exception of vehicles having left the scene....
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It would have to be in the 5 digit range.. Its very hard to find info on the internet though, unless you just want the death toll... :|
How many is it, Pipster?
I had a look at some of the Stats...in the metro area, there is in the vicinity of 25,000 crashes per year....haven't had a chance to get the Country ones, although I would expect them to be lower than 25,000.
Pip
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This is what your looking for that job info long time to be trapped before fire service is called obviously SAAS error...again :?
Mt Barker,Nairne and Brukunga brigades :-D
1908911 14:14:49 27-08-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 27/08/06 14:13,MILITARY RD,HARROGATE, MAP 150 K 2 ,,MOTOR CYCLE ACCIDENT AT ACUSA MOTOR CYCLE TRACK,1279 1288 1298*CFSRES:
1915607 13:51:46 27-08-06 MB81 Cat3 Military Rd, Harrogate 150 K2 POLICE REQUIRED
1916089 13:49:33 27-08-06 W81 Cat2 Military Rd, Harrogate 150 K2 POLICE REQUIRED
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How do you dig up the old messages??
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Save them daily for a rainy day...well we havent had many of them either :wink:
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here's another one with a delay of 13 mins:
12:16:12 08-09-06 W81 Cat2 Gorge Rd, Cudlee Creek 88 F16 TRAFFIC
12:29:57 08-09-06 SHQ: CFSRES: PARACOMBE, CUDLEE CREEK LOBETHAL RESPOND MVA GORGE RD, 3 KM WEST OF WILDLIFE PARK, BETWEEN PRAIRIE RD & TORRENS HILL RD, CUDLEE CREEK, NEAR POPLAR CORNER > 8/09/2006 12:29:47 PM
12:31:48 08-09-06 SHQ: CFSRES: LOBETHAL, ***STOP CALL*** FOR MVA GORGE RD, CUDLEE CREEK > 8/09/2006 12:31:38 PM
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6 mins:
12:45:14 08-09-06 MB81 Cat2 Strathalbyn Rd, Echunga
12:51:10 08-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 08/09/06 12:50,ALDGATE-STRATHALBY RD,ECHUNGA, MAP 183 A 4 ,,CAR V TREE 4 KMS TOWARD TO MYLOR
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6 mins:
12:45:14 08-09-06 MB81 Cat2 Strathalbyn Rd, Echunga
12:51:10 08-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 08/09/06 12:50,ALDGATE-STRATHALBY RD,ECHUNGA, MAP 183 A 4 ,,CAR V TREE 4 KMS TOWARD TO MYLOR
For the person trapped 6 minutes is a looooong time. But to record, allocate resource, page and telephone the next ComCen, who then records, allocate resource and pages then 6 minutes is quick.
Bring on SACAD....
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Where is the SES for this job :?
SHQ: CFSRES: GOOLWA RESPOND MVA CAR INTO SHOP, CORNER DAWSON & CADELL ST, GOOLWA, REAR OF SHOPPING CENTRE > 8/09/2006 3:29:34 PM
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bring on the CAD system,it should be noted that the delay could be another call to triple zero for that job????
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Where is the SES for this job :?
SHQ: CFSRES: GOOLWA RESPOND MVA CAR INTO SHOP, CORNER DAWSON & CADELL ST, GOOLWA, REAR OF SHOPPING CENTRE > 8/09/2006 3:29:34 PM
Well was just at that job and it was a nothing call car into a stone wall with minor damage driver with shock happened about 20mins before anyone was called and the car was being put on to a tow truck when we arrived.
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and this one really takes the biscuit (SAAS have been having a real good day, think I'll stop pointing out all the stuff-ups now):
15:36:21 08-09-06 S81 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:45:33 08-09-06 MB81 Cat3 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:48:45 08-09-06 W81 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:59:07 08-09-06 CT71 Cat3 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
16:05:01 08-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 08/09/06 16:04,SOUTH EASTERN FWY,STIRLING, MAP 145 C 11 ,,HALF KM EAST STRILING INTERCHANGE.,9019 8824
I heard it on the mix-fm traffic report at around 15:45.
What I suspect happened is someone (SAAS?) decided on no CFS response, then there was a second prang (van rollover) near the first 5 car prang and that is what CFS were finally responded to.
How come it's thought to be serious enough for 4 different ambulances (including from the city and murray bridge!) but not for fire cover or rescue?
I reckon Bridgewater and Stirling should put in RCR grievance forms.
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When i was at the station the other day i heard a MVA come over for SAAS about 10km out of town and thought here we go, but after a half an hour the local SAAS came up and said that they were on they're way to the hospital with a patient with spinal and chest injuries, yet us and our next brigade were never called. How Stupid can they get.
I may piss a few people off with what I'm about to say but everytime SAPOL get an MVA call they call SAAS and fire and rescue but when SAAS are the first receivers of the call this only happens sometimes, you know it's like we'll deal with our end but if no one rocks up then oh well we've got the person out it doesn't matter if fire and SaPol aren't here. :| End Rant
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and this one really takes the biscuit (SAAS have been having a real good day, think I'll stop pointing out all the stuff-ups now):
15:36:21 08-09-06 S81 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:45:33 08-09-06 MB81 Cat3 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:48:45 08-09-06 W81 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:59:07 08-09-06 CT71 Cat3 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
16:05:01 08-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 08/09/06 16:04,SOUTH EASTERN FWY,STIRLING, MAP 145 C 11 ,,HALF KM EAST STRILING INTERCHANGE.,9019 8824
I heard it on the mix-fm traffic report at around 15:45.
What I suspect happened is someone (SAAS?) decided on no CFS response, then there was a second prang (van rollover) near the first 5 car prang and that is what CFS were finally responded to.
How come it's thought to be serious enough for 4 different ambulances (including from the city and murray bridge!) but not for fire cover or rescue?
I reckon Bridgewater and Stirling should put in RCR grievance forms.
Agree this is happening on a daily basis...who are SAAS to say there is no reason for fire cover every accident is a potential fire :x
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1909036 18:51:24 08-09-06 SHQ: CFSRES: WOODCHESTER RESPOND MVA SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER, WELLINGTON RD, OUTSIDE BRYN VILLA
1916079 18:54:37 08-09-06 ST181 Cat2 Wellington Rd, Woodchester
:| No rescue responded here, don't know the circumstances of this one but once again all services need to sit down and sort this filtered out.
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and this one really takes the biscuit (SAAS have been having a real good day, think I'll stop pointing out all the stuff-ups now):
15:36:21 08-09-06 S81 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:45:33 08-09-06 MB81 Cat3 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:48:45 08-09-06 W81 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
15:59:07 08-09-06 CT71 Cat3 South Eastern Fwy, Bridgewater 146 H12
16:05:01 08-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 08/09/06 16:04,SOUTH EASTERN FWY,STIRLING, MAP 145 C 11 ,,HALF KM EAST STRILING INTERCHANGE.,9019 8824
I heard it on the mix-fm traffic report at around 15:45.
What I suspect happened is someone (SAAS?) decided on no CFS response, then there was a second prang (van rollover) near the first 5 car prang and that is what CFS were finally responded to.
How come it's thought to be serious enough for 4 different ambulances (including from the city and murray bridge!) but not for fire cover or rescue?
I reckon Bridgewater and Stirling should put in RCR grievance forms.
Now that you mention it... Oddly enough it was Aldgate dual responded with Stirling not Bridgie. What with Stirling also being requested to the RCR earlier in the day in Mt. Barker (they only had three crew) and not getting a page, thigns are looking a little messy.
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Now that you mention it... Oddly enough it was Aldgate dual responded with Stirling not Bridgie. What with Stirling also being requested to the RCR earlier in the day in Mt. Barker (they only had three crew) and not getting a page, thigns are looking a little messy.
that's partly what makes me think there was no CFS response to the first prang. The first 5 car one was reported as near the bridgewater interchange (hence Brdg and Strl should have been responded). The second van rollover one was reported as just east of the stirling interchange (hence Strl and Aldg got it).
didn't hear about the Mt Barker RCR, how (and by whom) were stirling "requested" if no page?
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Darius, you are quite right about the Freeway prang. No CFS response for the first 2 accidents, but when the second 2 occurred, police requested rescue response (yes, 4 separate accidents in the same place, 9 cars damaged)...
Re: the Mount Barker incident, Mt Barker allegedly asked SOC via radio to respond Stirling, but Stirling never got the page:
MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 08/09/06 08:50,MANN ST,MT BARKER, MAP 172 M 8 ,,IN FRONT OF AMBULANCE STATION. SPILL ONLY.,1279*CFSRES:
SHQ: *CFSRES: LITTLEHAMPTON RESPOND MVA TRAFFIC CONTROL ADELAIDE ROAD MT BARKER ***ASSIST MT BARKER**** < 8/09/2006 09:00:33
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What were they sent for?
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What were they sent for?
You know all that Heavy RCR that littlehampton do?!
...What else was there apart from firecover/traffic?
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They were sent for E's personal consultation and guidance. :lol:
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They were sent for E's personal consultation and guidance. :lol:
Manny the manwhore, encouragment officer extrodinare!
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06:39:50 15-09-06 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C87 B18 POLICE REQUIRED
07:53:20 15-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 15/09/06 07:52,STUART HWY,COOBER PEDY, MAP 0 0 0 ,,100 KM SOUTH OF COOBER PEDY,SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER,75529*CFSRES:
Hello there time delay!
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thats easily a new record... worst thing is that its like an hour and a half trip before they even get to the job.
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1916034 06:39:50 15-09-06 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C87 B18 POLICE REQUIRED
1916034 06:48:48 15-09-06 CB181 HELLO LOOKING TO SEE IF SECOND CREW AVAILABLE JUST IN CASE - TA LEITH
1916034 07:30:46 15-09-06 CB182 HELLO DEARREN IS AVAILABLE - LOOKING FOR A PERTNER FOR HIM PLS
1919292 07:43:54 15-09-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: COOBER PEDY RESPOND MVA HUTCHINSON ST, COOBER PEDY, POSSIBLE EJECTION FROM VEHICLE, SAAS WILL BE DELAYED DUE TO ANOTHER JOB...
1918209 07:49:39 15-09-06 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 15/09/06 07:48,HUTCHISON ST,COOBER PEDY, MAP 0 0 0 ,,PERSON POSSIBLY EJECTED FROM CAR,75529*CFSRES:
1918209 07:53:20 15-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 15/09/06 07:52,STUART HWY,COOBER PEDY, MAP 0 0 0 ,,100 KM SOUTH OF COOBER PEDY,SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER,75529*CFSRES:
Well this says it all doesnt it...my god :-o
Er hello im dying here when is someone coming to HELP :evil:
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Single vehicle rollover, car vs kangaroo. Nil entrapments, nill injuries.
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Single vehicle rollover, car vs kangaroo. Nil entrapments, nill injuries.
regardless, its still pretty damn average. I would not be happy if i was involved in that accident and was waiting around while crews show up. The fact that it was an accident like that is no excuse.
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Okay..
That is not "one" job. SAFIRERY has posted more than 1 job in his post.
Yes, fire/ rescue should have been responded in the initial stages, due to it being out of a metropolitan area. However I believe police on scene notified that they were not req.
CB181 HELLO LOOKING TO SEE IF SECOND CREW AVAILABLE JUST IN CASE - TA LEITH - That was a general page notifying that a second crew would be req. if another job came in.
1916034 07:30:46 15-09-06 CB182 HELLO DEARREN IS AVAILABLE - LOOKING FOR A PERTNER FOR HIM PLS - That was a page following up the hutchinson job, which CFS Fire / Rescue were responded to at 7.43. - SES responded at 7.49
Note, totally seperate to the Stuart highway job.
1918209 07:53:20 15-09-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 15/09/06 07:52,STUART HWY,COOBER PEDY, MAP 0 0 0 ,,100 KM SOUTH OF COOBER PEDY,SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER,75529*CFSRES - That was the first job being phoned in for the second time. - note, SAAS and SAPOL had already attended.
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1924962 19:12:19 30-09-06 CB182 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C87 B18
1916034 19:11:26 30-09-06 CB181 2ND CREW REQ FOR MVA - DIETER
1924962 19:10:49 30-09-06 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C87 B18
1924962 19:09:28 30-09-06 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C87 B18
1916034 19:09:25 30-09-06 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C87 B18
Nice to see fire and rescue were responded...Pffft NOT
They like responding SAAS only to VA's up north
*Shakes head with annoyance*
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is it an SAAS problem or the person who takes the 000 calls fault for not dispatching CFS as well as ambo's.
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It's up to whoever takes the original call to respond all resources
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thats right so why is SAAS copping a lot of the blame.
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Well i've called SOCC direct before for an MVA that SAAS were already mobile for and without prompting they were going to call SAAS to make sure that an ambulance were on the way, if the call comes in to police they call both services to make sure they've been responded.???
I know of four MVA's in our area in the last month all involving injuries or spillage that SAAS hasn't turned anyone out to!!!
So in short they always seem to be the ones stuffing up.
Is this a fair assesment probably not but some people from the respective services need to get their heads together and sort this filtered out.
If you recieve a call from 000 it should be a case of call the others and assume no one else knows???
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dont be too ready to soley blame SAAS
P F - any call initially goes ot an agency, at the member of publics discretion (whether they ask for fire, ambulance or police) thuis agency then takes the call and it is up to them to notify the other two. the call isnt given to any of the agencys from an outside source other than the public... (hope that makes sense for you)
SAAS may sometimes be responsible for the fire service not being turned out, but keep in mind that if they recieve the call from SAPOL then they have no obligation whatsoever to contact fire service.... although it is common sense.... as you said, SOCC usually go out of there way to ensure both other services are responding
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I apologise if i am giving SAAS a bollocking but down here whenever we get a delayed page for MVA's it usually comes from SAPOL because SAAS have been on scene for a half hour then SAPOL rocks up and realises no fire service and calls us. :?
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Yeah, SOCC should ensure a fire service crew are responded to all MVA's. It is easy for a crew to rock up and say no were not needed here its all good, and go back to their station.
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Yeah, SOCC should ensure a fire service crew are responded to all MVA's. It is easy for a crew to rock up and say no were not needed here its all good, and go back to their station.
and how can this be done if the original call taking agency doesnt notify the fire service?
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well whoever takes the call then
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ur right mate, they are meant to.... :wink:
the RCR resource directory has clear guidelines about responses
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I would like to re-enforce Medevac's post. - Since it seems some are all to quick to give a very public bashing of other services without often knowing the facts.
All that is seen on the pager website messages that were posted, is the SAAS response - no SAPOL (as the function is not supported/ possible), and would have shown subsequent / previous fire service / SES responses if they occured.
This is where I point particular attention to Medevac's message. - If SAAS received the call from SAPOL, (knowing the SAPOL responses are not seen), they are under nil (no) obligation to contact fire / rescue authorities - as they are not the service taking the original call.
If they were the service who took the call, then yes, it is questionable as to why the other services were not responded.
Is it known 100% who took the call, or is it a guess and straight to the blame game?
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If SAPOL's policy is to notify SAAS on a MVA that comes through their Comcen then why not the Fire Service?
Every MVA has the potential not only for entrapments but risk of fire as well,better to be safe than sorry :x
Im with you Medevac
I think its about time some of us brought this up at VFBA to get the ball rolling in the right direction, for the safety of all :-D
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hey why is MEdevac getting the credit for sticking up for SAAS and saying it isnt their fault if no fire is called and it should the the orginal despatcher. I made those claims first. :-P :lol:
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hey why is MEdevac getting the credit for sticking up for SAAS and saying it isnt their fault if no fire is called and it should the the orginal despatcher. I made those claims first. :-P :lol:
What we are saying is why dont thay pass the info on when thay get the call :wink:
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^ They are only obliged if they take the *original* call from the member of the public. If SAPOL or Fire Service notify them of a job and ask them to attend, all they are required to do is send resources, not notify other agencies.
So when people see SAAS going to a job, and instantly jump up and down bagging them for not calling other agencies, maybe they should find out who took the original call first..
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Now, if everyone would stop whining about the issues here and realise that this has been acknowledged hence the move to SACAD.
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We have never been responded to MVA by SAAS only to fires. The police normally call us if they remember.
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If SAPOL's policy is to notify SAAS on a MVA that comes through their Comcen then why not the Fire Service?
Sapol dont hava a policy as such... its just common sense to send SAAS to every MVA. However, per the RCR directory, they are required to send fire/rescue to all MVAs outside 'metro area' (now theres a loose term)
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We have never been responded to MVA by SAAS only to fires. The police normally call us if they remember.
Although SAPOL may give you an MVA via alerts, SAAS will never do so. Unlike SAPOl who may take the call locally in some areas, all of SAAS' calls go direct to there centralised comm centre in adelaide. If they recieve a call for an MVA, they will contact the fire service via direct line to there commcen.
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1924962 18:59:55 14-10-06 V181 Cat2 Randell Rd, Hindmarsh Island 308 B8
1924962 18:58:42 14-10-06 V181 Cat2 Randell Rd, Hindmarsh Island 308 B8
1916081 18:58:39 14-10-06 V181 Cat2 Randell Rd, Hindmarsh Island 308 B8
1908891 19:15:56 14-10-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: GOOLWA RESPOND MVA RANDELL RD, HINDMARSH ISLAND, SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER, 1 PERSON TRAPPED, 5KMS FROM HINDMARSH ISLAND BRIDGE.... < 14/10/2006 19:15:42
1908893 19:15:54 14-10-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: GOOLWA RESPOND MVA RANDELL RD, HINDMARSH ISLAND, SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER, 1 PERSON TRAPPED, 5KMS FROM HINDMARSH ISLAND BRIDGE.... < 14/10/2006 19:15:42
1924962 19:21:22 14-10-06 GO181 Cat2 Randell Rd, Hindmarsh Island
1908891 19:25:40 14-10-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: CURRENCY CREEK RESPOND MVA RANDELL RD, HINDMARSH ISLAND, SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER, 1 PERSON TRAPPED, 5KMS FROM HINDMARSH ISLAND BRIDGE.... < 14/10/2006 19:25:28
1908892 19:25:39 14-10-06 SHQ: *CFSRES: CURRENCY CREEK RESPOND MVA RANDELL RD, HINDMARSH ISLAND, SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER, 1 PERSON TRAPPED, 5KMS FROM HINDMARSH ISLAND BRIDGE.... < 14/10/2006
1 person trapped and serious injuries in a end over end roll over and 17 minutes to be called.
Will call headquarters and find out who call came from and grievance forms will definatly be lodged for this one. :x
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1 person trapped and serious injuries in a end over end roll over and 17 minutes to be called.
Will call headquarters and find out who call came from and grievance forms will definatly be lodged for this one. :x
That is disgusting.
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This is very interesting given the topic of this thread...
came from the Advertiser website http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20584731-5006301,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20584731-5006301,00.html)
Mock bus explosion in city
TEGAN SLUGGETT, POLICE REPORTER
October 15, 2006 10:17am
EMERGENCY crews rushed to a simulated bus bombing on North Terrace this morning as part of a national security training exercise.
But the exercise raised questions about the response time of ambulance crews when it took 15 minutes for them to arrive at the scene of the mock explosion, while police and fire crews were on the scene within minutes.
Screams and moans came from "victims" of the bombing - police cadets dressed as injured or dead civilians - who were lying across the sidewalk and inside the bus, and fire crews were forced to drag them out of danger while waiting for ambulance crews to arrive.
Ambulance general manager for emergency and major events Lee Francis said he did not believe ambulance crews were slow to the scene.
"You have to look at what time the ambulance service was notified," he said.
"We will review the response time, but at the moment we are happy with it."
Looks like SAAS are copping a bit of flak from everyone at the moment...
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"You have to look at what time the ambulance service was notified," he said.
"We will review the response time, but at the moment we are happy with it."
09:09:52 15-10-06 MFS: RESPOND ALARM 10/087 15/10/06 09:09,ADELAIDE EXHIBITION HALL,NORTH TCE ,ADELAIDE, MAP 3 M 3
,,FIP - FIRE CONTROL ROOM OFF NORTH TCE,,41 206 2090*CFSRES:
09:13:18 15-10-06 MFS: TALK GROUP 155
09:13:44 15-10-06 CT74 Cat2 Adelaide Convention Centre . North Tce, Adelaide 118 B9
09:18:05 15-10-06 1of2:GROUP PAGE - "EXERCISE RED LUMINARY" has started - Police report an explosion on bus o/s
Adel Convension Centre - MD and a number of crew responding -
09:18:08 15-10-06 2of2:Do not ring in unless you are on shift - Malcolm
a few response pages for the excercise....
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You can never be too careful :wink: but even though its only a mock exercise all emergency services in response should have had the same response time :-)
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You can never be too careful :wink: but even though its only a mock exercise all emergency services in response should have had the same response time :-)
Depends on where the ambulance vehicles were responding from ! MFS trucks would have been from Wakefield St, but maybe the ambo was out at a job and any at hospitals were loading/unloading.
Travel time is the killer even on a Sunday morning.
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It is now being blamed on a "script error"
Funny that when criticism is levelled there is no "human error"... that's right... blame the tools, never the tools using them...
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There was one interested supervisor/onlooker and that was Adelaide Crows coach Neil Craig who was there watching the exercise and observing how different agencies make decisions and carry out leadership roles
Sounds like Craigy may have a plan for next season :wink:
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There was one interested supervisor/onlooker and that was Adelaide Crows coach Neil Craig who was there watching the exercise and observing how different agencies make decisions and carry out leadership roles
Sounds like Craigy may have a plan for next season :wink:
yeah, because terrorist attacks and football go hand in hand. :roll:
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There was one interested supervisor/onlooker and that was Adelaide Crows coach Neil Craig who was there watching the exercise and observing how different agencies make decisions and carry out leadership roles
Sounds like Craigy may have a plan for next season :wink:
yeah, because terrorist attacks and football go hand in hand. :roll:
And now Neil Craig knows how long people have to wait for an ambulance in a emergency :?
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Very funny safirey :lol: but i think Craigy was focusing more on the response time of SAPOL & MFS as well as their leadership/decision making skills
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Robert34 - I think thats an oxymoron!
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1908991 01:05:03 04-11-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 04/11/06 01:04,AYR ST,BRIDGEWATER, MAP 158 E 1 ,,PERSON TRAPPED UNDER VEHICLE, NEAR TOWERS RD,9019 8924*CFSRES:
1908998 01:05:01 04-11-06 MFS: RESPOND RCR 04/11/06 01:04,AYR ST,BRIDGEWATER, MAP 158 E 1 ,,PERSON TRAPPED UNDER VEHICLE, NEAR TOWERS RD,9019 8924*CFSRES:
1924962 00:49:48 04-11-06 MB181 Cat2 Ayr St, Bridgewater 158 E1
1924962 00:49:01 04-11-06 MB181 Cat2 Ayr St, Bridgewater 158 E1
1915607 00:48:58 04-11-06 MB181 Cat2 Ayr St, Bridgewater 158 E1
**Shakes Head**
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15 minutes... thats not bad consdering the travel time for Mt. Barker Ambos to bridgie? I guess if SACSD comes in, CFS and SES are going to be doing a lot more initial patient care at incidents, due to the travel time for the ambos.
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I think the problem being pointed out is the fact that all services are to be responded initially, when outside of the metro area.
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2090 - thats exactly right, CFS/SES/MFS should be responded at the same time as SAAS, as sometimes they will arrive first in areas that SAAS are light on and be able to administer patient care until there arrival.
thats why the RCR directory stipulates their immediate response in rural areas.
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A little off topic but still on response times.
There was a page go out for an ambulance yesterday....
16:32:48 08-11-06 ME81 Cat2 17 Taplin St, Point Mcleay
The ambulance went past my work 18 minutes later.
Should SAAS implement a default system?
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Default to who???
We had a job a few weeks back to assist SAAS and the primary ambulance was Rescue51 because there were no other ambulances available.
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We are in a rural area, our next three closest ambulances are in towns 30 minutes away, probably 20 minutes in an ambulance, if a crew can't get going within 18 minutes surely they have to look at something.
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Agree with you there may have been circumstances such as being at another job, but i believe if SAAS are going to be that slow then why not show the local CFS/SES how to drive the merc's and just call them, i know they've done it at Mannum before??
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we have been showen how to drive both the ambulances here as well as where keys are kept if we have to come and get the spare,also we have a really good working relationship with the full time SAAS crews here as one brigade member is in the SAAS team.
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Agree with you there may have been circumstances such as being at another job, but i believe if SAAS are going to be that slow then why not show the local CFS/SES how to drive the merc's and just call them, i know they've done it at Mannum before??
We also have a great working relationship with our local SAAS. They are and have been in dire staights (sp) for some time. We were approached by them if we would assist with driving ambulances, not P1, but back from a job. Our Regional commander flatly refused!
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The he's an idiot, but i bet he wouldn't disagree if you drove one for a big incident?? :roll:
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There is no ruling on CFS members driving an ambulance for SAAS as long as you know how to drive it we have had this discussion with our R/C,I think you will find Adam a brigade up the road from you on that busy highway has 10 members who have been trained in how to drive the SAAS ambulance and have done so,lets face it if they are busy with a patient what are you going to do sit back and wait for tailem bend??? Don't think so. What happened to cross agency's working as a team
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Our Regional commander flatly refused!
It has been a common practice even since I was an AO, for other emergency service personnel to drive the ambulance if the ambulance crews were busy in the back with a cardiac arrest for example.SAPOL,CFS,SES members have performed this task on many ocassions over the years so your RO needs to pull his head in. :evil:
And they are AUTOMATICS dead easy to drive :-D
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Have driven the ambulance as a civilian before. You know the story small town, everyone knows everyone! I was at the scene of a collapse, two of my friends were on call and asked me to drive the ambulance back to hospital. They just make a quick call to their comms, they OK'd it and job was right.
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I think it only a matter of time and CFS will be auto default for SAAS in rural areas as long as crews have done a first responder course. The CFA is going that way in some area's of that state and from what I did hear is working well.
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Probably like they enhanced 000 like they trialled down here nearest emergency service
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1909162 06:27:08 25-11-06 SHQ: CFSRES: DUBLIN & TWO WELLS - PLS ORGANISE A LANDING ZONE FOR RESCUE 51 - MONITOR TG 020 - HELICOPTER WILL CONTACT YOU ON APPROACH. - NO ETA AT THIS STAGE. < 25/11/2006 06:26:54
1909163 06:15:13 25-11-06 SHQ: CFSRES: DUBLIN & TWO WELLS RESPOND MVA PORT WAKEFIELD RD, LOWER LIGHT NEAR BIG RABBIT RD - SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER < 25/11/2006 06:15:00
1924962 05:48:10 25-11-06 MA181 Cat2 Big Rabbit Rd, Lower Light
1924962 05:47:41 25-11-06 MA181 Cat2 Big Rabbit Rd, Lower Light
1916070 05:47:36 25-11-06 MA181 Cat2 Big Rabbit Rd, Lower Light
That is ridiculous, i can't speculate as to where this call came from but nearly half an hour is beyond a joke. That area has a lot of serious road accidents yet is one of the worst for having delayed calls. :x
We are currently having trouble getting our complaints past group level it's really starting to get irritating.
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MEH, just bypass the group
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It was Roger's fault :-D
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I think it only a matter of time and CFS will be auto default for SAAS in rural areas as long as crews have done a first responder course. The CFA is going that way in some area's of that state and from what I did hear is working well.
Blinky - more likely the emergency services, not specifically CFS. There are a number of areas around the state where additional training is currently occuring and soon additional equipment will be implemented to assist in the shortfalls and to provide local backup - for life threat only, not transport and not Cat3 and below cases.
As you know we also already have several first responders - and these are CFS.
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1908073 20:28:22 26-01-07 MFS: RESPOND Assist SAAS 26/01/07 20:27,MONUMENT RD,HINDMARSH ISLAND, MAP 308 Q 6 ,,PATIENT WITH HEART CONDITION, ON BOAT, ABOUT TO BE AT MUNDOO CHANNEL BOAT RAMP,DAILY INC. NO. 53,73229*CFSRES:
Don't get it, they respond a service that is 45+mins away including response time and we are 20mins away and have done jobs with them to that boat ramp before not smart??????
Mind you some of the SAAS crew down here are supporters of the SES(i'm not saying i'm not or that they shouldn't be:-)) and request them for the job even though they are further away just because they have family or friends in the service??
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Yeah, you would think the nearest and most appropriate service would be responded..
In this case, that service being CFS..
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I think something has to be said about the training that AO's receive, i've happened to come accross a couple of minor VA's in the city where the ambo's are in attendance and the firies haven't been called and i can clearly see that fluids are leaking from the bottom of the car, and that there is damage under the bonnet. Upon informing them that i'm an off duty firie and asking the Ao's if the ignition is switched off and the battery disconnected, they have said "no it doesn't need doing", and then when i've said "yes it does, the car is not safe", they've rolled their eyes and got all shitty about it. I mean come on, i'm only looking out for them and the vehicle owners safety.
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yeh but its not the ambos issue...
its up top there commcen to call the other relevant services, and inside metro area there is no steadfast rule about the fire service being turned out
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I have come across VA's as well and suggested the same thing and a very terse you are not required comes back..Volunteer bashing at its best.
So I just ring MFS myself :-D
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good point SAFirey, if you come across a prang and think that CFS or MFS are required, then i wouldnt even worry abotu suggesting it to ambos (unless the car is in the process of being loaded onto a tow truck) id just phone MFS or CFS comms
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It will cause a nice mess one day. Ambos will be attending to the patient in the car seat and the car will ignite/explode because no one disconnected the battery etc and the firies werent called until it was too late.
Coroner will have a field day
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Too much apathy out there "it wont happen to me attitude"
Better to have resources responded than none at all :-P
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We have an arrangement down here in the South East whereby the fire service/rescue resource is responded to all vehicle accidents. Whether the initial call is received by sapol or saas they pass it on to fire/rescue. We are often reponded within 2 mins sometimes sooner. If its only minor we usually are utilised for fire cover and traffic control if nothing else.
1905686 12:17:40 27-01-07 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 27/01/07 12:17,AVEY RD,MT GAMBIER, MAP 0 0 0 ,,CNR JUBILEE HWY WEST - SPILL ONLY,DAILY INC. NO. 19,74629 701*CFSRES:
1928012 12:17:31 27-01-07 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 27/01/07 12:17,AVEY RD,MT GAMBIER, MAP 0 0 0 ,,CNR JUBILEE HWY WEST - SPILL ONLY,DAILY INC. NO. 19,74629 701*CFSRES:
1906658 12:17:29 27-01-07 MFS: RESPOND Vehicle Accident 27/01/07 12:17,AVEY RD,MT GAMBIER, MAP 0 0 0 ,,CNR JUBILEE HWY WEST - SPILL ONLY,DAILY INC. NO. 19,74629 701*CFSRES:
1924962 12:16:59 27-01-07 MG84 Cat2 Jubilee Hwy W, Mount Gambier C172 D8
1908548 12:16:57 27-01-07 MG84 Cat2 Jubilee Hwy W, Mount Gambier C172 D8
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Don't get it, they respond a service that is 45+mins away including response time and we are 20mins away and have done jobs with them to that boat ramp before not smart??????
SAAS have auditors that investigate these things so have your Capt/GO fill in the form. We have done several (lots) and region 1 are very aware of the problems.
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We responded to two car MVA with both cars on fire the ambo crew put there vehicle in the way we could not get in closes enough to the cars the had walking wounded but sat them down on the road between us and the fire. We asked for them to move but got told to pxxx off they had work to do just put the bxxxxy fire out. Then asked us to move our hoses as the where in there way. Pity the Captain did not request a debrief over this one.
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If I was the officer in charge of your appliance I would of told the SAAS crew if they want the fire out then move out of the filtered way.
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He tried to do it diplomatically but they would not move luckily we managed to stop the fuel from running down towards them and there Patience's and vehicle. The police did not help out any either they kept getting in to the smoke and in between the two cars could have been very nasty if things went bang.
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who cares what is in the way?
if SAAs are in a stupid position then so be it... there fault. you explain the danger they are putting themselves in and if they choose to ignore you then its there asses on the line..
get in there and do it, same as any job.
then put in a complaint formally after the incident.
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maybe its the horrid green color they wear that effects their common sense!! - Just joking all you ambos out there.
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Criticism of other emergency services should probably go in the members forums so the public dont get the wrong idea. Weve all had good bad great horrid times with other services.
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That's true, we all make mistakes. And we always seem to remember and criticise the bad things instead of the good things. Sorry Ambos :-D
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1924063 12:04:33 31-01-07 S81 Cat2 100 Main St, Hahndorf 159 B3 TRAFFIC
1915607 12:05:25 31-01-07 MB81 Cat2 100 Main St, Hahndorf 159 B3 TRAFFIC
1908907 12:07:07 31-01-07 SHQ: *CFSRES: MT BARKER & HAHNDORF RESPOND MVA MAIN ST, HAHNDORF, ADELAIDE SIDE OF OLD MILL, SINGLE VEHICLE < 31/01/2007 12:06:56
1908904 12:07:09 31-01-07 SHQ: *CFSRES: MT BARKER & HAHNDORF RESPOND MVA MAIN ST, HAHNDORF, ADELAIDE SIDE OF OLD MILL, SINGLE VEHICLE < 31/01/2007 12:06:56
1908911 12:07:11 31-01-07 SHQ: *CFSRES: MT BARKER & HAHNDORF RESPOND MVA MAIN ST, HAHNDORF, ADELAIDE SIDE OF OLD MILL, SINGLE VEHICLE < 31/01/2007 12:07:00
1908904 12:07:12 31-01-07 SHQ: *CFSRES: MT BARKER & HAHNDORF RESPOND MVA MAIN ST, HAHNDORF, ADELAIDE SIDE OF OLD MILL, SINGLE VEHICLE < 31/01/2007 12:07:00
1908911 12:07:54 31-01-07 MFS: RESPOND BUILD IMPACT 31/01/07 12:06,100 MAIN ST,HAHNDORF, MAP 159 B 3 ,,UNKNOWN ENTRAPMENTS - KINDRED SPIRIT SHOP CALL FROM SAAS,DAILY INC. NO. 32,1279 72120 1228*CFSRES:
1908904 12:07:56 31-01-07 MFS: RESPOND BUILD IMPACT 31/01/07 12:06,100 MAIN ST,HAHNDORF, MAP 159 B 3 ,,UNKNOWN ENTRAPMENTS - KINDRED SPIRIT SHOP CALL FROM SAAS,DAILY INC. NO. 32,1279 72120 1228*CFSRES:
1908002 12:08:05 31-01-07 MFS: RESPOND BUILD IMPACT 31/01/07 12:06,100 MAIN ST,HAHNDORF, MAP 159 B 3 ,,UNKNOWN ENTRAPMENTS - KINDRED SPIRIT SHOP CALL FROM SAAS,DAILY INC. NO. 32,1279 72120 1228*CFSRES:
1928011 12:08:07 31-01-07 MFS: RESPOND BUILD IMPACT 31/01/07 12:06,100 MAIN ST,HAHNDORF, MAP 159 B 3 ,,UNKNOWN ENTRAPMENTS - KINDRED SPIRIT SHOP CALL FROM SAAS,DAILY INC. NO. 32,1279 72120 1228*CFSRES:
1908907 12:08:16 31-01-07 MFS: RESPOND BUILD IMPACT 31/01/07 12:06,100 MAIN ST,HAHNDORF, MAP 159 B 3 ,,UNKNOWN ENTRAPMENTS - KINDRED SPIRIT SHOP CALL FROM SAAS,DAILY INC. NO. 32,1279 72120 1228*CFSRES:
1908904 12:08:18 31-01-07 MFS: RESPOND BUILD IMPACT 31/01/07 12:06,100 MAIN ST,HAHNDORF, MAP 159 B 3 ,,UNKNOWN ENTRAPMENTS - KINDRED SPIRIT SHOP CALL FROM SAAS,DAILY INC. NO. 32,1279 72120 1228*CFSRES:
Looks like a text book case of good notification SOPs being followed by SAAS.
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It can also be a case of the caller information as to why CFS/MFS dont get responded.
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also remember you can't point the finger just from reading the pager messages, there's a lot more goes on behind the scenes (eg. one incident my group formally complained about turned out to be sapol comcen at fault, not SAAS as it appeared from the pager messages).
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1924962 15:09:07 21-02-07 G81 Cat2 Cnr Hillier Rd, Evanston 23 F16 TRAFFIC
1924690 15:09:03 21-02-07 G81 Cat2 Cnr Hillier Rd, Evanston 23 F16 TRAFFIC
1926877 15:24:18 21-02-07 MFS: RESPOND RCR 21/02/07 15:23,HILLIER RD,EVANSTON, MAP 23 F 16 ,,1 PERSON TRAPPED NEAR PRZIBILLA RD,DAILY INC. NO. 31,359 332*CFSRES:
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Hate to be the person trapped :-o
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14:22:46 22-02-07 MU84 Cat4 Tailem Bend Oval - Town Second Av, Tailem Bend C259 E5
14:56:29 22-02-07 SHQ: CFSRES: TAILEM BEND RESPOND HELICOPTER LANDING SITE, TAILEM BEND OVAL, HELICOPTER ETA 1500, FOR MEDICAL RETRIEVAL < 22/02/2007 2:56:19 PM
15:06:54 22-02-07 SHQ: CFSRES: TAILEM BEND RESPOND HELICOPTER LANDING SITE, SECURITY OF OVAL REQUIRED FROM PASSERS BY, FROM SAAS < 22/02/2007 3:06:43 PM
That's not bad giving them 4 minutes notice!!
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14:22:46 22-02-07 MU84 Cat4 Tailem Bend Oval - Town Second Av, Tailem Bend C259 E5
14:56:29 22-02-07 SHQ: CFSRES: TAILEM BEND RESPOND HELICOPTER LANDING SITE, TAILEM BEND OVAL, HELICOPTER ETA 1500, FOR MEDICAL RETRIEVAL < 22/02/2007 2:56:19 PM
15:06:54 22-02-07 SHQ: CFSRES: TAILEM BEND RESPOND HELICOPTER LANDING SITE, SECURITY OF OVAL REQUIRED FROM PASSERS BY, FROM SAAS < 22/02/2007 3:06:43 PM
That's not bad giving them 4 minutes notice!!
Thats ok they have got 6 minutes to default :-P
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Bit of a time lag
15:16:52 10-03-07 AV81 No crew rostered Urgent case in area contact comms ONLY if able to attend
15:29:42 10-03-07 SHQ: *CFSRES: AMERICAN RIVER RESPOND AIRCRAFT INCIDENT, MUSTON HEIGHTS AIRSTRIP, AMERICAN RIVER. LIGHT AIRCRAFT FLIPPED ON LANDING... > 10/03/2007 3:29:32 PM
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:roll:
1915607 15:26:59 27-03-07 MB81 ARE YOU ABLE TO CLEAR FOR A CAT 2 IN FLAXLEY?
SAAS - Mt Barker
1924962 15:27:44 27-03-07 MB81 Cat2 Strathalbyn Rd, Flaxley R007103
SAAS - STATEWIDE TEAM LEADERS INFO
1908911 15:36:20 27-03-07 MFS: RESPOND RCR 27/03/07 15:35,WISTOW-STRATHALBYN RD,WISTOW, MAP 000 0 0 ,,QUAD BIKE ROLL OVER OUTSIDE PROPERTY OF PANKINA RAPID NO. 007 103,DAILY INC. NO. 37,1279*CFSRES:
CFS - Mt barker
1908906 15:45:21 27-03-07 MFS: RESPOND RCR 27/03/07 15:45,ALDGATE-STRATHALBY RD,FLAXLEY, MAP 183 J 15 ,,QUAD BIKE ROLL OVER OUTSIDE OF PANKINA.,DAILY INC. NO. 37,1218*CFSRES:
CFS - Echunga Response
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We had the R1 commander come down for a meeting and we brought this topic up, we were told that CFS is trying to do something about this but it's not easy because the call takers and dispatchers don't use the RCR book and aren't really all that willing to fix the problem.????
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Like i said previously, SAAS can only go on the information that they are given on the phone and in life threatening cases the SAAS comms person maybe giving treatment advise to the caller over the phone.
When a ambo arrives there first priority is (as every one that has done a first aid course should know) is DRABC, if there is no danger they will attend the patient and do there primary survey then call for any assistance required, if there is danger they will call for CFS/MFS. A stable patient is not going to be affected by 10min delay in rescue response. Only when the patient is time critical is it vital to have rescue responded ASAP. There priority is the patient.
I'm also sure that if every 000 call was made by some one in some form of emergency service then no details would be missed, but there not some people get so paniced by the situation that they can barley talk.
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Like i said previously, SAAS can only go on the information that they are given on the phone and in life threatening cases the SAAS comms person maybe giving treatment advise to the caller over the phone.
When a ambo arrives there first priority is (as every one that has done a first aid course should know) is DRABC, if there is no danger they will attend the patient and do there primary survey then call for any assistance required, if there is danger they will call for CFS/MFS. A stable patient is not going to be affected by 10min delay in rescue response. Only when the patient is time critical is it vital to have rescue responded ASAP. There priority is the patient.
I'm also sure that if every 000 call was made by some one in some form of emergency service then no details would be missed, but there not some people get so paniced by the situation that they can barley talk.
I think the biggest point people are trying to make has been missed in your post.. (Or you may just not have said it..) .. But most the peep's are trying to get at the initial response, which should be all services in a non Metro Area.. It shouldnt be left to arrival and then the requesting of resources, all 3 should be sent at the beginning..
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Thats a fair point, it seems that since SAAS have merged all there regional comms rooms, ie Far North, Sth East into a central comms area in the city this situation has become worse. I know that when the comms at Pt Aug was moved to the city we dont get called to back up the Roxby SAAS vollies to Cat 1 & 2 jobs any more.
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1908893 12:41:16 14-04-07 SHQ: CFSRES GOOLWA RESPOND MVA CROCKER ST AND LOVEDAY ST,GOOLWA - SPILL ONLY > 14/04/2007 12:41:05 PM
1916081 12:24:31 14-04-07 V81 Cat2 Int Crocker St, Goolwa 307 N5
Better late than never i guess :| :roll:
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Thats a fair point, it seems that since SAAS have merged all there regional comms rooms, ie Far North, Sth East into a central comms area in the city this situation has become worse. I know that when the comms at Pt Aug was moved to the city we dont get called to back up the Roxby SAAS vollies to Cat 1 & 2 jobs any more.
I dont think thats the case at all.. (RE: Comms in the city).. If this used to happen, and no longer does, maybe try find out why.. I don't believe it would be souly due to the fact that the COMCEN was moved to town.
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I dont think thats the case at all.. (RE: Comms in the city).. If this used to happen, and no longer does, maybe try find out why.. I don't believe it would be souly due to the fact that the COMCEN was moved to town.
I was just giving my view to what may have happened and a possible reason for it. If you are really that concerned about it ring SAAS comms yourself and ask them why its happening.
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Im not concerned mate, but by the looks of your post you were..
Thats a fair point, it seems that since SAAS have merged all there regional comms rooms, ie Far North, Sth East into a central comms area in the city this situation has become worse. I know that when the comms at Pt Aug was moved to the city we dont get called to back up the Roxby SAAS vollies to Cat 1 & 2 jobs any more
Your stating the situation has become worse because the comcen's moved into Town... - Which I believe is incorrect. Thats MY point of view.. Im not concerned, not worried in the slightest.. Just arguing a point.. Why would I need to ring SAAS comms and ask them?? Your the one stating what you think is a problem.. :roll:
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You need to relax dude, everything you post is so serious or argumentative, you seem to be a smart guy, use some of those smarts in a humerous way. :wink:
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My apologies if I come across as argumentative.. I like nothing more than a healthy debate, however people have to realise if they want to give it, they have to take it..!
:wink:
Do we need a thread.. "Agencies responding other services" ?? :-P
1916074 07:24:50 16-04-07 MU71 Cat2 South Eastern Fwy, Murray Bridge 349 B16
1919403 06:49:48 16-04-07 SHQ: CFSRES MURRAY BRIDGE RESPOND MVA SE FREEWAY,MURRAY BRIDGE - BETWEEN THE 2 EXITS SAPOL MSG 176 < 16/04/2007 06:49:34
1928011 06:49:03 16-04-07 MFS: RESPOND RCR 16/04/07 06:47,SOUTH EASTERN FWY,MURRAY BRIDGE, MAP 349 B 16 ,,1KM PAST WESTERN EXIT ON THE EASTBOUND TRACK,DAILY INC. NO. 11,72729*CFSRES:
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maybe whowever called it in was told by the occupants they didn't want an ambulance????? Then as usual the shock wears off and they suddenly need one???
However i do agree it goes both ways.
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I believe that this will be rectified WHEN sacad is on line and all relevant services have had there input into this system, it is now down to brigades units and services to come on line and do their response plan as was requested to be done or in the process of being done to come in line at a very short time. I believe that SACAD will start to be used very soon. I know from 2 agencies of which I belong to that their is still some internal disagreement of who will respond and how! if not solved locally it will be escalated further up the line.
Units, brigades and divisions had better talk to their Captains,controllers superintendents etc, to have input.
my opinion only and may not be relevant to the current topic but will cover most of recent topics
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1924962 11:57:54 24-05-07 V81 Cat2 Goolwa-mt Compass Rd, Currency Creek
12:19:56 24-05-07 SHQ: CFSRES CURRENCY CREEK & GOOLWA RESPOND MVA STRATH - GOOLWA RD, CNR MT COMPASS - GOOLWA ROAD, CURRENCY CREEK > 24/05/2007 12:19:53 PM
Hmmm... seems to be happening a lot to us lately however this was SaPol this time, i spoke to the officer on scene and when he got the job over the radio he requestes CFS and SAAS be called and only SAAS got called :oops:
On a happier note here is a pic of the officer ripping shreds off a truckie for failing to stop on order was quite funny at the time :-D
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On a happier note here is a pic of the officer ripping shreds off a truckie for failing to stop on order was quite funny at the time :-D
always a funny sight al!
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1916107 15:18:42 08-07-07 YO81 Cat2 47 Gulf View Rd, Stansbury C253 D10
1919117 15:47:42 08-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 36 - 08/07/07 15:47,RESPOND Assist SAAS,47 GULF VIEW RD,STANSBURY, MAP 0 0 0 ,,HELICOPTER LANDING AT STANSBURY OVAL & ASSIST TO MVA SCENE,29824 29919*CFSRES:
Better late then never!!!! :-(
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1924063 10:51:09 30-07-07 S81 Cat2 Battunga Rd, Meadows 202 F11
1916071 10:50:43 30-07-07 MW81 Cat2 Battunga Rd, Meadows 202 F11
1924962 10:55:09 30-07-07 HM4 Cat2 Battunga Rd, Meadows 202 F11
1908910 11:03:50 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 22 - 30/07/07 11:04,RESPOND RCR,BATTUNGA RD,MEADOWS, MAP 202 F 11 ,,1KM FROM MEADOWS TOWARDS ECHUNGA. LANDING SITE ALSO REQUIRED.,1259 1218*CFSRES:
1916941 11:14:46 30-07-07 1of2:Morning, FYI - Primary response to vehicle accident at Meadows. Ken Hutchinson is on scene as are Meadows and Stirling. Believe 1 pt trapped and another
1916941 11:14:50 30-07-07 2of2:self extracted. Thank you Jade
1908904 11:15:30 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 22 - 30/07/07 11:15,RESPOND RCR,BATTUNGA RD,MEADOWS, MAP 202 F 11 ,,ASSIST MEADOWS WITH CONFIMED ENTRAPMENT. TG 128,1279*CFSRES:
1908909 11:21:01 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 22 - 30/07/07 11:21,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,BATTUNGA RD,MEADOWS, MAP 202 F 11 ,,ASSIST ECHUNGA AND MEADOWS, TG 128,1248*CFSRES:
Perhaps while someone was whinging to the news about CRD they should've mentioned this rubbish too. :|
Would be keen to hear what the minister says about it :evil:
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16:13:05 30-07-07 Mdws Info: Tonight''s GRN Training is cancelled (no cheering allowed!). Instead we are having a debrief of today''s RCR. We will have guests, so behave! <name> <mobile #>
Interesting given the Meadows ambulance sits in the Meadows CFS shed.
Hopefully the debrief will bring the issues to all so they can be resolved appropriately.
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1924063 10:51:09 30-07-07 S81 Cat2 Battunga Rd, Meadows 202 F11
1916071 10:50:43 30-07-07 MW81 Cat2 Battunga Rd, Meadows 202 F11
1924962 10:55:09 30-07-07 HM4 Cat2 Battunga Rd, Meadows 202 F11
1908910 11:03:50 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 22 - 30/07/07 11:04,RESPOND RCR,BATTUNGA RD,MEADOWS, MAP 202 F 11 ,,1KM FROM MEADOWS TOWARDS ECHUNGA. LANDING SITE ALSO REQUIRED.,1259 1218*CFSRES:
1916941 11:14:46 30-07-07 1of2:Morning, FYI - Primary response to vehicle accident at Meadows. Ken Hutchinson is on scene as are Meadows and Stirling. Believe 1 pt trapped and another
1916941 11:14:50 30-07-07 2of2:self extracted. Thank you Jade
1908904 11:15:30 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 22 - 30/07/07 11:15,RESPOND RCR,BATTUNGA RD,MEADOWS, MAP 202 F 11 ,,ASSIST MEADOWS WITH CONFIMED ENTRAPMENT. TG 128,1279*CFSRES:
1908909 11:21:01 30-07-07 MFS: DAILY INC. NO. 22 - 30/07/07 11:21,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,BATTUNGA RD,MEADOWS, MAP 202 F 11 ,,ASSIST ECHUNGA AND MEADOWS, TG 128,1248*CFSRES:
Perhaps while someone was whinging to the news about CRD they should've mentioned this rubbish too. :|
Would be keen to hear what the minister says about it :evil:
Whats the rubbish mate? - If you could just clarify your statement.
Who was the agency notified first of the call? .. Do you know.have the times for when each agency received notification in comparison to the time the call was received? .. Do you know what details were given upon receipt of the call? .. - If you could answer those for me in clarification of your statement of the dispatch being rubbish, then I may be able to comment on the matter. - But at the moment I can't, because I don't know the facts, and im not just going to go off the pager website. :-)
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Whats the rubbish mate? - If you could just clarify your statement.
Who was the agency notified first of the call? .. Do you know.have the times for when each agency received notification in comparison to the time the call was received? .. Do you know what details were given upon receipt of the call? .. - If you could answer those for me in clarification of your statement of the dispatch being rubbish, then I may be able to comment on the matter. - But at the moment I can't, because I don't know the facts, and im not just going to go off the pager website. :-)
[/quote]
Well said, all too often on this forum, it seems that some people have nothiing better to do with their life except, tune in to the scanner, eye the paging system and create rumeors.
I'd also like to add that unless the pager/response error directly concerns you or your brigade, keep you fingers off the keyboard and shut the (hmm cant write that word) up. sure ask a question about it.
Don't try to put a puzzle together unless you have all the peices.
No matter what is said, a person will only ever make the correct decision at the time. cause if they new it was wrong they wouldn't make it.. although in hindsight you may have been able to make a better one. These guys in com cens do a great job, even with the ERS7 system we had trucks go the wrong way due to communication breakdowns.
Please remember they work only with the information avaliable.
lets be positive and not bash the messengers.
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Was referring to the time taken to dispatch rescue etc to a job that obviously was required, yes i am only going by pager info however it doesn't take much too read into it.
Yes i have a sore spot regarding this subject, we have taken it further however was told it's a lost cause cfs can't force other agencies to abide by a book that everyone agreed to work by.
I aplogise if i offend anyone by my stand on this matter it is my opinion and mine alone that i represent, it just annoys hell out of me that there's a reasonably simple fix for all of this yet the heirachy's aren't all that interested.
I have all the admiration for the people who do the CRD for all agencies
they do a great job, but why not fix something that is obviously wrong???
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I heard the Ambos give this call out to their trucks...initial info given to their crews, from their Comms, per radio was "query one trapped"
I was surprised that the relevant CFS were not responded within a few minutes of that call (as it would appear is normally the case when Ambos get info that indicates a possible entrapment)
The Ambos arrived on scene, confirmed they did have a person trapped. It was after that call, that the CFS pages came through.
However, having heard / seen all of that, there is no indication of where the hold up was in calling the CFS...I would hope, however that this type of thing is put through the appropriate channels by the relevant people, as an issue, to try and determine where the hold up was......
On a slightly different topic, about other services calling CFS - yesterday, a person walking their dog observed a vehicle down a 40 metre, very steep embankment, upside & half submerged in the creek below.....
Police were the first ones called, and it was taken as just an abandoned vehicle. Then ambos were called, just in case there was someone inside. Problem was the location of this vehicle made it impossible for those crews to get to it, due to the 40m, very steep embankment. So they called the Ambo SOT's, who came from Adelaide (it would appear they were in the City when called). Then the SAPol STAR Group were called. Also coming from town, or perhaps even Netley (their base.) Because of the time of day, it was a 30 minute drive through the traffic to get to this scene. SAPol Water recovery Squad were called, just in case there was someone in the car - they are usually 40 minutes away, at least.
The local CFS can respond to the location, with the right gear to get to the vehicle (having done it before in similar locations) - in only 10 minutes from the time a page is sent.
Another CFS brigade, only about 15 minutes away from the location, has all the Rope rescue gear.
The CFS were never called to the scene. (Who I presume are supposed to be combatant authority...). SES (who are 30 minutes away) were not responded either.
In the end, (about 2 hours after SAPol were notified), it was finally determined that there was no-one in the vehicle, and that it was indeed a stolen vehicle.
We talk about SAAS perhaps not notifying other agencies soon enough, but in the scenario outlined above, it would appear that SAPol failed dismally in calling the appropriate resources... would have been bad luck if there had been a person in the vehicle. :oops:
Oh yeah, the water wasn't very deep in the creek...
Pip
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Similar situation Pip....
I know of someone who came accross an MVA, vehicle on side person trapped..... requested Fire Service for rescue, waited... waited.... waited... eventually with SAAS managed to extricate the person via the boot after removing seats etc after about 20 minutes... Did Fire Service ever arrive??? NOPE never called.... and this was in the Metro area!
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sometimes information can be not so much miss placed or lost but not always there when commcen's need it there is times where fire and rescue services are notified first and then saas dont know for however long after and vicea versa when there is a major incident for example MVA with entrapments saas commcen page the shift manager for that area with a sitrep so he or she knows what is going on it dosent matter who gets there first or last as long as every body get there
and as for assist saas for heli landing area saas may not know they need it till just before the page is put out if a PT is serious enough that retrival is needed at the scene then CFS/SES/MFS are paged to support that is why there is a delay in that area
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sometimes information can be not so much miss placed or lost but not always there when commcen's need it there is times where fire and rescue services are notified first and then saas dont know for however long after and vicea versa when there is a major incident for example MVA with entrapments saas commcen page the shift manager for that area with a sitrep so he or she knows what is going on it dosent matter who gets there first or last as long as every body get there
and as for assist saas for heli landing area saas may not know they need it till just before the page is put out if a PT is serious enough that retrival is needed at the scene then CFS/SES/MFS are paged to support that is why there is a delay in that area
I understand what you are saying, but when it comes to any area outside the metropolitan boundary, all services are to be notified upon recipt of the call.
So whether the details are available or not, all services are meant to be notified..
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yes they all are how ever i am in both and my SAAS pager has gone off up to 45 mins before my SES pager it dose happen and i realise how much of a pain it can be your right it shouldnt happen like this and its happening more and more for RCR form a SES side of it its a pain cause if there is a rescue and we dont get paged for 45mins then its hard it dosent help when MFS page us and the CFS but some how they seem to be paged first hopfuly they iron out these bugs in the system but form an ambo point of view sometime CFS/MFS/SES can get in the way (this refers to non RCR) if i am doing resus on some one the last thing i need is members of other services trying to get in sometimes its a help and sometimes its not but the amount of pressure and stress put on an ambo is massive i sometimes have to make desscisions that will aaffect the out come of the person/s involved and the extra stress of haveing other services around and getting grumpy cause they arnt getting involved can be off putting. i went to a MVA a few weeks ago as an ambo at 545am CFS were there first then us then SES while my partner and i were assesing the person the SES and CFS wer more interested in telling us how to do our job and to hurry up our occupent had ?spinal injurys this takes time to remove them from the car i had a unit manager and a captian as well as others yelling at me to go faster i realise that there are only a few like that but but ride an ambulance one day for one shift and see the stress in the emergency situation sometimes Ambos will seem rude but trust me they arnt being rude they are just concentrating on the job at hand and any dispatch of resorces is out of the hands of the crews and in the hands of the commcens in the city
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yes they all are how ever i am in both and my SAAS pager has gone off up to 45 mins before my SES pager it dose happen and i realise how much of a pain it can be your right it shouldnt happen like this and its happening more and more for RCR form a SES side of it its a pain cause if there is a rescue and we dont get paged for 45mins then its hard it dosent help when MFS page us and the CFS but some how they seem to be paged first hopfuly they iron out these bugs in the system but form an ambo point of view sometime CFS/MFS/SES can get in the way (this refers to non RCR) if i am doing resus on some one the last thing i need is members of other services trying to get in sometimes its a help and sometimes its not but the amount of pressure and stress put on an ambo is massive i sometimes have to make desscisions that will aaffect the out come of the person/s involved and the extra stress of haveing other services around and getting grumpy cause they arnt getting involved can be off putting. i went to a MVA a few weeks ago as an ambo at 545am CFS were there first then us then SES while my partner and i were assesing the person the SES and CFS wer more interested in telling us how to do our job and to hurry up our occupent had ?spinal injurys this takes time to remove them from the car i had a unit manager and a captian as well as others yelling at me to go faster i realise that there are only a few like that but but ride an ambulance one day for one shift and see the stress in the emergency situation sometimes Ambos will seem rude but trust me they arnt being rude they are just concentrating on the job at hand and any dispatch of resorces is out of the hands of the crews and in the hands of the commcens in the city
The same thing can be said for any members of emergency services, at an incident - they can also be quite stressed - not just the ambos. And other emergency services may also have to make life & death decisions - actions that can dramatically change the outcome for individuals. It is not the sole domain of ambos.
If the different services don't quite understand what the other service is actually doing (as opposed to what they think they are doing) then organise some training sessions with the other services, so they do have an understanding & appreciation of each others actions.
So, being at a resus, with a few extra pairs of hands, who know what they can do to help makes life a lot easier than trying to do resus with just you & your partner.... :-) )And yes, I have done resus before, and mobile resus at that..
Pip
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Ive been on both ends of the stick when people are getting a little impatient. 9.5/10 times its due to a misunderstanding of what has been said, or because nothing has been said at all. Big problem when creating the plan of attack. And in all of those times when the information has been pasees on or clarified, everything continues in a timely and 'relaxed' (as much as you can at that kind of thing) manner.
The other 0.5/10 (take a bit rather than give a bit) involves people who could only be described as tools. that to has been taken up in the correct manner after the incident.
Nothing like interservice debriefs and training!
However this will never change the fact that there should never be a delay beween paging all services, no matter what information is at hand. Another page can always be sent later with more info.
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Pip what is your link to the vollies??????? i know what you do for a job but what service are you with out side of work
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I was a St John Volunteer several years ago, and worked on ambulances for about 2 years in the metro area. In addition to that, have been in CFS for 24 & a bit years....currently Capatin of the brigade
Pip
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i understand that as a captain you have to make decissions that can affect the outcome of peoples lives but can i ask how often do you have mulitple services telling you to hurry up or complainig that it took 10mins extra to be paged or telling you how to do your job i understand that at times you have to say no to your BA crews going in or what ever but as a volunteer firefighter how often do you get to an mva and get to decide who lives and who dies im pretty sure i know the answer i know that no matter what service your in it gets stressful but as an ambulance officer i am responsible for the protection of life and prefention of futher harm as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged but reflect on your time as an ambo how often did this happen to you and now as a captain how often do you complain. complaining to the crews there isnt going to help you need to follow the chain. i am getting used to other services complaining and i love listening to it and laughing PIP this was not aimed at you or any paticular service all i was trying to get accross is that fact that VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE OFFICERS are under a lot of presure at jobs and dont need the extra presure put on them by other services infact my team are looking in to being trained in basic princepls or RCR so they know what the RCR crew are able to do and mabye make it a bit quicker between arriveing and getting the RCR crews working
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i understand that as a captain you have to make decissions that can affect the outcome of peoples lives but can i ask how often do you have mulitple services telling you to hurry up or complainig that it took 10mins extra to be paged or telling you how to do your job i understand that at times you have to say no to your BA crews going in or what ever but as a volunteer firefighter how often do you get to an mva and get to decide who lives and who dies im pretty sure i know the answer i know that no matter what service your in it gets stressful but as an ambulance officer i am responsible for the protection of life and prefention of futher harm as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged but reflect on your time as an ambo how often did this happen to you and now as a captain how often do you complain. complaining to the crews there isnt going to help you need to follow the chain. i am getting used to other services complaining and i love listening to it and laughing PIP this was not aimed at you or any paticular service all i was trying to get accross is that fact that VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE OFFICERS are under a lot of presure at jobs and dont need the extra presure put on them by other services infact my team are looking in to being trained in basic princepls or RCR so they know what the RCR crew are able to do and mabye make it a bit quicker between arriveing and getting the RCR crews working
That's totally harsh and uncalled for.
You are obviously removed from all reality of situations.
How about the pressure that Volunteer Ambulance Officers put on Volunteer Rescuers (be it CFS or SES) that they need the patient out of the vehicle 10 minutes ago and can't they go any quicker? Then tell them stop and change their minds on how they want the patient extricated five times in ten minutes?
It sounds like you had a specific incident that needs to be sorted out in the correct manner - through your chain of command. Whinging on this forum will not help the situation.
It is unfair that you tarnish every volunteer with your negative experience at one incident. Get some perspective!
Oh, and punctuation helps get your message across a lot clearer...
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ok situations change we all know that! sometimes the traped person has a turn for the worst or a new injury shows its self so what would have been a simple side removal and bring them out that way is now a full inline extrication. i do know how RCR works i have been around RCR for hmmm the last 6 years. I know it is slow i know its a pain to do all i am saying is look at it from the saas point of view thik of it this way. you are an ambulance office at a MVA you have a traped person who you are working on, The rescue and fire services turn up and start sooking about the fact that SAAS has been there for 10 15 20mins already there in your face trying to push you and get you out of the road so they do the cuts they want to do it there way not even interested in what your trying to say pushing in leaning in over the top of you how would you handle that??? im 6ft 4in tall i dont need people leaning in over me i have enough problems trying to get in the car my self the last thing i want or need is having fire trucks and rescue crews turn up and telling me what to do how would you handle this hmmmm tell me that
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It's simple mate tell them to SHUT THE filtered UP!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously the crews in your area have some major issues with each other and need to sort them out.
We work with AO's alot down here and we don't have a problem working with them!
IF theres a problem bring it up afterwards through the chain of command and get it fixed or you lot will do more harm than good.
Remind me not to get into a VA at Kapunda, might die while everyone argues with each other.
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Tell them, or their officer, to stand back and give you room and the time you need. If you have too, tell the Cop at the scene to get those who are hindering your efforts out of your face! (And if that includes other service members being pains in the asses, so be it.. If they are being a pain, they clearly don't respect the seriousness of the job.. Telling you to "hurry up" in your treatment is absurd..)
However, I agree with 'filtered'.. Don't allow one incident or negative experience at a job to make your mind up on every rescue operator.. And follow up from that negative experience and possibly have an Ops Debrief with the crews involved, and voice your concers with what happened at the job..
But I have to agree with Mundcfs, If you are being hassled by other services to "hurry up" so to speak, tell them to get knicked, and at the time, very clearly make it known they are hindering your efforts as an Ambo.. (People tend to take a step back when you shout at the top of your voice to their OIC that they are getting in your way and to have them pulled back).. They clearly have no idea as to the importance of patient stabalisation prior to extrication if they are acting in that way. . . (It would be a slightly diff. scenario if the fireys were saying.. " Hurry up mate, this LPG tank is about to let go " or something to that effect).
Must be something up your way, cause of all the jobs ive been too I have never seen anything like this..
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sesroadcrashrescue could you pleas break your slabs of writing into paragraphs or sentences rather
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ok situations change we all know that! sometimes the traped person has a turn for the worst or a new injury shows its self so what would have been a simple side removal and bring them out that way is now a full inline extrication. i do know how RCR works i have been around RCR for hmmm the last 6 years. I know it is slow i know its a pain to do all i am saying is look at it from the saas point of view thik of it this way. you are an ambulance office at a MVA you have a traped person who you are working on, The rescue and fire services turn up and start sooking about the fact that SAAS has been there for 10 15 20mins already there in your face trying to push you and get you out of the road so they do the cuts they want to do it there way not even interested in what your trying to say pushing in leaning in over the top of you how would you handle that??? im 6ft 4in tall i dont need people leaning in over me i have enough problems trying to get in the car my self the last thing i want or need is having fire trucks and rescue crews turn up and telling me what to do how would you handle this hmmmm tell me that
Meet them at a social gathering, at the pub, hold a debrief, get advice from a SPAM team member, complete an exercise together, do whatever it takes to talk to the other organisations away from the stress of the incident.
Something has happened & if the crews do not resolve the issues by talking as adults, then the next victim will not get the professional assistance they need.
Yes, your role in a RCR is important to patient comfort & the ultimate outcome for the patient from the incident. But in other peoples eyes you are not the most important.
The victim is the most important.
So the crew will need to manhandle & sometimes push to get equipment into place, so they can do their job to assist the victim. I would imagine that this accidental push happens at all incidents.
Aim to become a team of people who 'roughly' work together in each skill set to get the injured person as safe as possible.
The first step is talking to someone about the issues. This is sometimes the hardest step to do...
** my opinion only **
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As I have said in previous postings, members of all services can be under extreme stress at a serious incident, no matter what the type of incident, and what service
All services, at some time, have to make life & death decisions - it is not the sole domain of Ambulance Officers.
I pointed a loaded firearm at a person, who was coming at me with the knife...finger on the trigger, and all that was going through my mind, literally was "I'm going to have to shoot this prick" Luckily, in the end, I didn't have to.
To me that is a pretty serious life & death decision.
There are many other people, in all of the emergency services, who have made, and will have to make, life and death decisions.
As for people getting in your way, or hassling you, there are perhaps a few issues -
one, as I posted earlier, is perhaps a lack of understanding by the different services, of exactly what the other service does (excluding those people in dual services, do you know EXACTLY what the other service is actually doing? - you know if there is an injury, that ambos deal with that, if there is a person trapped, then firies come & cut them out, and police turn up & investigate the cause..but how do they do that? )
While it is not necessary to know the specifics of what each service does,it does help if all services have an appreciation of what the other services do.
So, hold some joint training sessions - learn from each other - what each service does, how the other services can assist in specific situations.
Second, if you are an ambo, focusing on your patient, you may not be seeing the big picture - those other services "hassling" you might be because they can see things that you can't.
I have been to several road crashes, from an ambo, fire & police perspective - and certainly haven't encountered negative experiences, in terms of the behaviour of other services on scene - sure, various members of the various services might be very short with others, demanding things be done (rather than asking politely!), but once things have settled done, patients gone to hospital etc, the other services become much friendlier, not rude - and I understand that their behaviour during the incident is not being rude & pushy - just doing what has to be done at the time.... having an informal debrief at the scene can be very beneficial!
Pip
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sesroadcrashrescue it sounds like you really need to sit down with he local crews up there and do some serious training together, i am really shocked that any rescue person would be telling an AO how to do there job or to hurry up, all people rescue trained know and accept that a rescue is dictated by the AO's. Also if a patient is being resused in a car i would consider that time critial, and be asking the rescue crew to dismantal that car asap.
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as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged
Of course, if SAAS management honoured its agreement to respond other services, you wouldn't be getting grief (which you shouldn't anyway - that should be going back up the CFS food-chain).
And this thread wouldn't exist.
(you really do need to use punctuation - 2/3 of your post was unintelligible gabble - SMS & chat habits only work for short no-brain stuff, not complex & important ideas & issues.)
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i understand that as a captain you have to make decissions that can affect the outcome of peoples lives but can i ask how often do you have mulitple services telling you to hurry up or complainig that it took 10mins extra to be paged or telling you how to do your job i understand that at times you have to say no to your BA crews going in or what ever but as a volunteer firefighter how often do you get to an mva and get to decide who lives and who dies im pretty sure i know the answer i know that no matter what service your in it gets stressful but as an ambulance officer i am responsible for the protection of life and prefention of futher harm as an ambulance officer i dont need crews complaining that we are going slow or that they had to wait an extra 10mins before they got paged but reflect on your time as an ambo how often did this happen to you and now as a captain how often do you complain. complaining to the crews there isnt going to help you need to follow the chain. i am getting used to other services complaining and i love listening to it and laughing PIP this was not aimed at you or any paticular service all i was trying to get accross is that fact that VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE OFFICERS are under a lot of presure at jobs and dont need the extra presure put on them by other services infact my team are looking in to being trained in basic princepls or RCR so they know what the RCR crew are able to do and mabye make it a bit quicker between arriveing and getting the RCR crews working
Everyone is under a lot of stress at these jobs. The problem is the caveman mentality involved in whose tribe is first at the car... You guys need to grow up and have a nice big chat over what SHOULD happen at an RCR and train together...
I also have a headache from trying to decipher these posts you keep making. Is there any possibility of not having a wall of unpunctuated text in every thread please? Full stops, capitals and spaces don't generally take much longer to put in...
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1924962 09:43:05 16-11-07 SA82 Cat2 Moloney Rd, Virginia 39 F14 SAAS Road Crash Research
1909192 10:45:37 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 19 - 16/11/07 10:45,RESPOND RCR,MOLONEY RD,VIRGINIA, MAP 39 F 14 ,,CAR V TRAIN - DOUBLE FATALY - POSSIBLE INSECTICIDE SPILL - NITOFOL - GROUP 1B..POLICE MESS 383,VIRG19 DALK19*CFSRES: CFS Virginia Response
Gotta be sh***ing me. :-(
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16:50:29 16-11-07 MB81 Cat2 Cnr Aldgate Strathalbyn Rd, Echunga
16:50:31 16-11-07 MB81 Cat2 Cnr Aldgate Strathalbyn Rd, Echunga
MFS: INC # 66 - 16/11/07 17:07,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,CHURCH HILL RD,ECHUNGA, MAP 183 E 8
,,INT. OF ALGATE TO STRATH ROAD,CLEAN UP ONLY FROM SAAS,ECHG00
MBKR19*CFSRES:
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Obviously they were having problems at SAAS today, they were getting better. We just got back from an Vehicle Accident
1909713 20:18:56 16-11-07 BE171 Cat2 Dalziel Rd, Winkie SAAS Berri
1918237 20:22:05 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 81 - 16/11/07 20:21,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,DALZIEL RD,WINKIE, MAP 000 0 0 ,,SINGLE CAR ROLLOVER, NO TRAPPED,BRI029 GLOS00*CFSRES: SES Berri1919306
20:22:16 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 81 - 16/11/07 20:21,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,DALZIEL RD,WINKIE, MAP 000 0 0 ,,SINGLE CAR ROLLOVER, NO TRAPPED,BRI029 GLOS00*CFSRES: CFS Glossop Response
so thats not to bad only 3 minute gap - nothing job both guys manage to get out of it with scatches.
Someone must have stuffed up today I hope the crews involved in that one are ok.
cheers
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All I will say is that one day the worst case scenario will happen and maybe then the "It Will Never Happen" attitude go away.
Every crash is a potential emergency situation and those few minutes can be the difference between life or death.
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1924962 09:43:05 16-11-07 SA82 Cat2 Moloney Rd, Virginia 39 F14 SAAS Road Crash Research
1909192 10:45:37 16-11-07 MFS: INC # 19 - 16/11/07 10:45,RESPOND RCR,MOLONEY RD,VIRGINIA, MAP 39 F 14 ,,CAR V TRAIN - DOUBLE FATALY - POSSIBLE INSECTICIDE SPILL - NITOFOL - GROUP 1B..POLICE MESS 383,VIRG19 DALK19*CFSRES: CFS Virginia Response
Gotta be sh***ing me. :-(
Were SAAS the Primary call takers?
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I'm not sure who that comment was aimed at mate, no body is saying that it"will never happen". Don't know about everyone else but my crew & I treat every job as an "emergency situation". I would (& have done) get rid of anybody who didn't!
The point is it was obvious that a mistake was made, hopefully those involved will learn & grow from it. Yes it was a very poor call to have a fire/ rescue responded 1 hour later - infact intolerable.
Sesrescues comments regarding the role of AO's seem over the top, also does this mean he/she is a member of two services?
Must admit never heard of the problems he describes occurring on a job, have had Junior (trainee) AO's making very stupid decisions, regarding removal of a PT instead of waiting for rescue (dragging a PT over a centre consol nil life threat) - reported the problem to there boss.
Had young CFS guys shouting the odds, pointed out that a) not their problem b) Quietly I'm the boss of a rescue not them - their Captain dealt with their youthful enthusiasm.
I might have said this previously but I will say it again, those who are in charge of Units, Brigades, Stations, Groups need to put their ego's in a tin & learn what each others roles is.
Also they need to manage their own teams, my guys are very clear on what is & what isn't acceptable behaviour on the scene and in relation to interaction with other services. Any filtered from them will bring Filtered from me " those who live in glass houses" Mind you it does help being appointed from above & not voted in :-D.
In all honesty I thought this stuff had died off years ago.
cheers
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Had young CFS guys shouting the odds, pointed out that a) not their problem b) Quietly I'm the boss of a rescue not them - their Captain dealt with their youthful enthusiasm.
when and where did this happen chook. not at your last mva.
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definitely not the crew I worked with last were as usual easy as to work with, a real pleasure.
No the incident happen a while ago due to a misunderstanding, easy when not all of the facts are not understood - nothing to write home about.
But as I said the crew I worked with last are a pure pleasure as are 99% of CFS/ MFS crews. cheers
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call me intuitive, but I'm detecting a lot of concern in relation to discrepancies between incident occurance times and how long it takes to dispatch other agencies.
many years ago, SAAS used to manage dispatch of it's crews locally. Then it became a regional thing - and a regional comcen used to manage crews in a geographical area. As of 4 years ago, the whole of SA's ambulance resources are all managed/dispatched from Eastwood - from calltaking right through to major incident management.
also at around the same time, SAAS management was having trouble getting road staff to work in the ComCen - so started employing civillians to undertake call-taking duties. Slowly but surely this leached into civillians co-ordinating all ambulance resources state wide. The guys who deal with regional ambulance co-ordination are generally on the ball and smart, but the one's who deal with metro and fringe metro ambulance co-ordination are civvy's who wouldn't know that their proverbial was on fire if they had the most expensive alarm fitted to their backsides!
now - you can't blame them entirely (they've never worked on an ambulance......)- management are focussed on meeting targets and ensuring that their own proverbials are covered and that they won't be smacked by the coroner.
so where does this leave the practical bits of ambulance resource management?
.......not even your average paramedic or VAO seems to know any more...and the usual reply is "just do what and go where you are told!"
now I know that there are some VAO's and even a reasonably senior SAAS manager that read this forum - and guess that they probably won't have the same perspective or entirely agree with me - but at the end of the day - these monkeys in Eastwood simply sit in front of a computer, and feed the cases on one PC screen an Ambulance from the other PC screen - and tell the crews where to go on a radio.
as for specific agreements on when should fire services be involved in VA's? I don't believe there is one - but I know that in Metro Adelaide - if we routinely called SAMFS for every single VA we attend - there would be appliances belting around the city almost as aimlessly as the ambulances which attend minor VA's more routinely than you have hot dinners. SAAS don't carry patients from a fair majority of these, and there is generally no requirement for SAMFS to attend....and given that these monkeys in Eastwood sit in front of a screen and "co-ordinate" (sic) - it's little wonder that the same rationale is starting to emerge in country SA!
sorry this took so long......enough of a rant...I think I need to go on a holiday!!
btw - for the record - I enjoy and appreciate the work all firey's do! have some very good mates in both SAMFC and CFS!!
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I am not sure that the Coordinators at Eastwood are Civilians... of those I know (and I don't know them all ) they were ambulances officers (and presumably now paramedics- I knew them a long time ago!)....
But that is not really the issue. Each service should have protocols to follow - presumably SAAS have those. Civilian or otherwise, in any service, those protocols should be followed.
Why it didn't occur in this situation, who knows!
Hopefully CFS will put through an issues form, and try & determine why the problem occurred.
In the situation at Virginia, in hind site, there was nothing CFS could of done....but when the next crash occurs, somewhere, it might be a different story...
Pip
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<snip>
as for specific agreements on when should fire services be involved in VA's? I don't believe there is one - but I know that in Metro Adelaide -
<snip>
But there is a written agreement. It's called the "Road Crash Rescue Memorandum of Understanding" or RCRMOU. It is dated around 2000 (+/- a couple of years) & on one of the first few pages are the signatures of the CEO's of SAPol, MFS, CFS & SAAS.
From memory - it's a few years since I held a copy in my paws & read it - it says that the agency receiving the 000 call WILL respond the other 2 services. First arriving agency can stop-call the others if not required.
cheers
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you're right, there is the RCR MOU - but cyncically, I don't think it get's used a whole lot in SAAS comms.
pipster - you'll have to trust me that there are not a lot of AO's up in the SAAS comms room anymore! I think we're up to about the 3rd or 4th "generation" of civvy's now. the guys who co-ordinate regional SA are the "old hands" and haven't worked on the road in years, but at least they have...and know what happens out there. these new bods wouldn't have a clue!! They have about 10000 work instructions to try and follow, while the managers breathe down their necks, pushing them to meet targets such as response times, call recieved to despatch times etc.
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
Nothing to do with procedures. It's about price.
People who actually know their stuff cost more than people who don't.
And they are a lot harder to bully into cooperation with management
targets vs. core business.
Sad thing is that it more-or-less works for a while. Just long enough
fpor the manglers who introduce the system to collect their bonusses
& bolt. Then the wheels fall off. Who here can spell "Intergraph"?
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
Nothing to do with procedures. It's about price.
People who actually know their stuff cost more than people who don't.
And they are a lot harder to bully into cooperation with management
targets vs. core business.
Sad thing is that it more-or-less works for a while. Just long enough
for the manglers who introduce the system to collect their bonusses
& bolt. Then the wheels fall off. Who here can spell "Intergraph"?
spoken like a true veteran SCK - and Mack like a true manager!!
why do you think banks have sent their call-centres off-shore?
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
Nothing to do with procedures. It's about price.
People who actually know their stuff cost more than people who don't.
And they are a lot harder to bully into cooperation with management
targets vs. core business.
Sad thing is that it more-or-less works for a while. Just long enough
fpor the manglers who introduce the system to collect their bonusses
& bolt. Then the wheels fall off. Who here can spell "Intergraph"?
not entirely sure whether youve missed my point or not...
boredmatrix - whether thats from a managerial point of view of not, im not sure. im simply saying that perhaps to get things done properly per procedures, that it is better to have people who dont have that little nagging voice in the back of there head saying "ahhh just a motorbike they cant possibly be trapped, wont bother with F&R".... i know it is important to have people with experience in positions, no doubt about that, however it is also important to have people who will enforce the service SOPs.
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
Nothing to do with procedures. It's about price.
People who actually know their stuff cost more than people who don't.
And they are a lot harder to bully into cooperation with management
targets vs. core business.
Sad thing is that it more-or-less works for a while. Just long enough
fpor the manglers who introduce the system to collect their bonusses
& bolt. Then the wheels fall off. Who here can spell "Intergraph"?
not entirely sure whether youve missed my point or not...
boredmatrix - whether thats from a managerial point of view of not, im not sure. im simply saying that perhaps to get things done properly per procedures, that it is better to have people who dont have that little nagging voice in the back of there head saying "ahhh just a motorbike they cant possibly be trapped, wont bother with F&R".... i know it is important to have people with experience in positions, no doubt about that, however it is also important to have people who will enforce the service SOPs.
I can absolutely see your point Mack - there does need to be process in order to ensure that all bases are covered and everything is achieved.
I guess from the perspective of those of us who like to see things resolved practically and with the most positive outcomes - there seems to be no medium between the old and the new. Process makes it easy to set goals and achieve outcomes, but completely removes any recognition that people are human, and hence still have physical, emotional and psychological constraints.
Some of the best managers I've ever worked for have maintained the human element while keeping the achievability of goals in focus. typically -these are the types of managers who never get far up the food chain because they are seen as "failing" in achieving outcomes!
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
Does that mean that if CRD were privatised you dont think CFS and SES VOls should be allowed to work there???
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aaah but surely 'civvys' as you call them... are the way to go.
that way they dont let personal experience or knowledge get in the way of enforcing procedures...
Does that mean that if CRD were privatised you dont think CFS and SES VOls should be allowed to work there???
24pumper - interesting point, that i hadnt really considered. But i guess what i am saying could be interpreted as that... but were not talking about 'privatising' comms, simply getting new blood in and moulding these people to actually follow and enforce procedure.
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I may be wrong but is this not a MVA :?
If so what no fire cover :?
11:31:22 25-11-07 WK81 CAT 2 VA COMING IN FOR WAIKERIE PLEASE. SAAS Waikerie
11:33:45 25-11-07 WK81 Cat2 Sturt Hwy, Waikerie C283 H5 SAAS Road Crash Research
11:35:30 25-11-07 BA71 Cat3 Sturt Hwy, Waikerie C283 H5 SAAS Barmera
11:35:33 25-11-07 BA71 Cat3 Sturt Hwy, Waikerie C283 H5 SAAS Road Crash Research
Does anyone now what was going on?
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was an mva with three people in the car. go figure
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was also one in murray bridge. with no fire or rescue.
happens quite often. one of things to put up with i guess as nothing will change in the mean time.
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Are the crew just as much to blame for not asking or requesting if other services have been responded as they are turning out? ..
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How would they know until they arrive or they ask? And they are getting used to not have those resources around when they are :wink:.
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Its commonsense isn't it? .. You would know your turning out to an MVA.. (Just listen to any dispatch and you will find 95% of the time, at least general details are known about the case)..- I can only vouch for myself but I will always ensure other services (Ambulance and Police etc) have been responded as we are turning out..
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Time for a very big overhaul of call taking/paging/contacting other services,someone is going to get hurt or killed if they keep playing this silly game.Time delays in paging other services is taking too long,we had a MVA Sunday I did not go but when I looked on the pager site from the time SAAS paged and from the time we where paged was a 9 min delay......There are a lot of issues with the dispatching and only one person can fix it....
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There are a lot of issues with the dispatching and only one person can fix it....
Who's that?
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Kevin 07 :-D
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The person who signed off on this with out looking into it fully.....
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Kevin 07 :-D
HAHAHAHA! :D
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Time for a very big overhaul of call taking/paging/contacting other services,someone is going to get hurt or killed if they keep playing this silly game.Time delays in paging other services is taking too long,we had a MVA Sunday I did not go but when I looked on the pager site from the time SAAS paged and from the time we where paged was a 9 min delay......There are a lot of issues with the dispatching and only one person can fix it....
hear hear!
the new coroner isn't afraid to get his teeth stuck into anything, and while I'd like to say it'd be one of the various service's managers or CEO/commissioners, the cynic in me backs it being Mr Johns hammering it home with a dirty big nail!
of late- being despatched to VA's in metro - It's usually a repetitive call for MFS attendance - because it doesn't happen initially. Granted, a majority of the VA's we attend in metro are so minor that not even a clean-up is neededand SAMFS aren't required, but the one we do go to that fire cover is really needed will be the one that lands on the coroners desk first.
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ambos use a method for sitreps thats when they ask about fire/rescue as an ambo the last thing on my mind is have the CFS/MFS/SES been paged im alredy thinking about the job infront of me once i can see whats going on then i start to think out side my bubble.
once im there i check out whats going on then when i give a sit rep i check to see about fire and rescue i know some dont ask at all i do ask not as im pulling out the door but as soon as i start thinking that line.
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Out of curiosity, why isn't that part of the line you're thinking as you respond? Surely you're thinking about the job you're going to, what you might find there, how you're going to deal with it, and how you're going to keep yourself safe?
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ambos use a method for sitreps thats when they ask about fire/rescue as an ambo the last thing on my mind is have the CFS/MFS/SES been paged im alredy thinking about the job infront of me once i can see whats going on then i start to think out side my bubble.
once im there i check out whats going on then when i give a sit rep i check to see about fire and rescue i know some dont ask at all i do ask not as im pulling out the door but as soon as i start thinking that line.
Whatever. - I work, with Paramedics/ambo's, who often check if the fire service or rescue have been responded when they are tasked to a Cat 2 MVA, or any incdent which may require other services.. (checking on turnout, well before arrival) - Comms do a great job, but they have a huge workload, there is nothing wrong with a polite request to make sure rescue / fire have been advised.
Not thinking outside of your "bubble", is called Tunnel vision.. - Think you might want to pop that bubble, sooner, rather than later!
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SESRCR - you're right - comms do have a big job - managing upwards of 15 cars per METRO talkgroup.
The issue comes about when the crew doesn't know if SAMFS/SACFS have been dispatched - and crews are then taking up valuable air time askng questions as to whether or not something has been done - and on days like last wednesday (19/12) - when the workload was absolutely horrendous (more than 1100 cases for the day) - the last thing you need is to be spending 10 minutes trying to get some airspace to comfirm resources when you're trying to manage 6 patients at a VA with just one car.
If you seem to think you're the Guru on everything SAAS - I'd invite you to come spend a day (or better still -a hot sat night in the middle of summer!) on the road and see what really happens out there when you get a high workload and a co-ordinator who's not that good and see how easy it is for a co-ordinator to make ambo's shifts hell!
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mate im not saying im a guru on saas just my opinion i know it can be hard to get on the air to talk to comms try having to call in every time you get a job before you have walked out the door to go to the station. i have worked in the metro area on hot nights i have been paged to go into town to help out as cases have come in faster then cars clear.
i have never had a problem with a coordinator they do the best they can depending on the shift workload. every one has crap shifts here and there build a bridge if you cant do that then drown quite simple. if you can handle the stress of a mistake by comms then get out of the job mate
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Dude, I know you wear a few different hats. And I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how strong. However due to your nickname, your strongly held views reflect on the rest of us. In fact you are tracking very close to bringing the service into disrepute. Remember others read & report on what is posted on these forums (so I have been reliably informed :wink:)Would it be possible to tone down your closing comments just a bit.
If not could you please change your handle? As your comments may reflect on all of us & as a fellow professional I find your closing comment "build a bridge if you cant do that then drown quite simple. if you can handle the stress of a mistake by comms then get out of the job mate" offensive to me & to someone who is obviously a fellow professional! I'm sure that you wouldn't make the same comment face to face. So in closing please do us all a favour and think before hitting the send button.
cheers
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Especially when you roll your cursor over their Email toggle and it shows exactly who the poster is.. - Makes it alot easier for the heirachy to monitor people online..
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Especially when you roll your cursor over their Email toggle and it shows exactly who the poster is.. - Makes it alot easier for the heirachy to monitor people online..
HAHAHAAH laugh my frikin donkey off...
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MMM, so thats what I've done wrong :-D
I have no fears of my bosses as the ae well aware of my opinions, and i'm very careful not to step over the line. Unlike some :wink:
And you may have noticed the Avitar is gone, can'tbe accused of inappropriate use of a corporate symbol.
cheers
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Wasn't referring to yours chook.. - The person you were talking too a few posts ago is in the same boat.
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Yeah I know mate was just joshin - I was also trying to give a very gentle hint :wink:
cheers
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hehe.. Too easy.
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MMM, so thats what I've done wrong :-D
I have no fears of my bosses as the ae well aware of my opinions, and i'm very careful not to step over the line. Unlike some :wink:
And you may have noticed the Avitar is gone, can'tbe accused of inappropriate use of a corporate symbol.
cheers
Yeh yeh, I know...I got my hand spanked again by the hierarchy the week before Christmas. Nice Christmas present.....but it answered some questions on my future.... :|
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You will have to let me know more Andrew, because it depends what for - there is such a thing as free speech you know. Not on here but :wink:
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Heard of a interesting discussion with David Place at one of SAFECOMS presentations one evening ,he is aware that other services feel that there is a problem with SAAS dispatch of complimentary services but its a "procedural issue"ie operators working their way through set procedures ,patient details and the like.
One of the SAAS CRD personnel that was present was summoned to give the good oil on the situation ,NO WAY was there a institutionalised problem the discussed incidents were anomolies,after much talk it was agreed that a SAAS "issues register", to track any, if at all of these suppossed problems might be the way to go, that way they could be documented and actioned IF it proves to be the case, hopefully this might see the light of day.
In saying this ,might a "issues register" for every agency be appropriate?????
Lets hope we can all sit back and look it for what it is ,emergency service organisations taking constructive critism ,that will cause our respective agencies to look at their SOPS to see if they could be improved,before it goes to far and somebody ends up crying, funding not withstanding.
Cheers Jaff
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Thas like SOP 2.8 that states SAPOL should be called for all incidents but a lot of brigades dont bother
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Thas like SOP 2.8 that states SAPOL should be called for all incidents but a lot of brigades dont bother
Thats cause no-one want to hang around for an hour or 2 waiting for them.
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Thas like SOP 2.8 that states SAPOL should be called for all incidents but a lot of brigades dont bother
Thats cause no-one want to hang around for an hour or 2 waiting for them.
BOOM BOOM
As long as you report the incident at least
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Thas like SOP 2.8 that states SAPOL should be called for all incidents but a lot of brigades dont bother
all "fire" incidents...
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Thas like SOP 2.8 that states SAPOL should be called for all incidents but a lot of brigades dont bother
all "fire" incidents...
I think you should read page 59 of the COSO's :wink:
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So Jim and Janes pet kitty up a tree, and we have to ring SAPOL !?!?!? .. - No wonder people don't!
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So Jim and Janes pet kitty up a tree, and we have to ring SAPOL !?!?!? .. - No wonder people don't!
If kitty resists the jet, SAPOL + Firearm = problem solved. Sorry i hate cats. :-D
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maybe you should have a re-read...
SOP 2.8
Responding SA Police to Vehicle Accidents, Fires and Other Emergencies
"this SOP relates to vehicle accidents, all fire types: structure (including electrical), rubbish bins, vehicle fires, brush fence fires, explosions and rural type fires."
:wink:
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Well its finally happened there are now separate issues registers for the services,so if you suffer from a extended paging/response delay before your called to a MVA put in a issues register, so that a reasonably accurate picture of the state of play can be seen!!
These response delays have been talked about adnauseum, now there is a vehicle to either show it to be the case or discount it! Its up to the masses to drive this issue if we want it addressed, if it happens to you put,register an issue immediately so that it can be addressed while its relevant.
Please note this is not a witch hunt, its a quick documented way of addressing what has been talked about for years.
Cheers Jaff
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It will be like the other issues forms. Straight through the shredder!
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Please note this is not a witch hunt, its a quick documented way of addressing what has been talked about for years.
Cheers Jaff
Where & how do we submit items for the issues registers ?
cheers
AJ
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The issue registers are compiled at the regional offices,it will be addressed.
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Where & how do we submit items for the issues registers ?
cheers
AJ
Region 1 sent the form out months ago (it's not new), otherwise download it from:
http://www.cfs.org.au/sacad/CRD_Registration_of_Issues_Form_NEW.doc
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Darius your right! it is not new as such, but what is new is that the regions(region 1 at least)are now breaking up the register to individual agencies to try to get to the root cause of some of our angst, again if we dont document it time and time again, we cant build a case for procedural change.
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1924962 17:58:56 25-01-08 BL181 Cat2 Dirt Rd, Owen SAAS: Aldinga
1916025 18:01:18 25-01-08 BL181 STILL LOOKING FOR 2ND CREW MEMBER FOR VEHICLE ACCIDENT AT OWEN. THANK YOU SAAS: Balaklava
The current set up is wrong, SES (If primary rescue) and CFS should have been responded at 17:58 as well...Its precious minutes counting by and more so if fire is involved...
I don't fully understand the CAD system, will this be resolved when its fully implemented?
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At least a CFS appliance has more likelyhood of having a first aider on it at least get them going :?
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Yeah definitely, not only that if they get responded at the call they can arrive at probably the same time as SAAS, either way it will cut some time of how long it is before they arrive.
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SES RCR would definitely have first aiders on board, yep I was curious about that page too. Just thought its all been said previously & seems to be the exception rather than the rule these days.
cheers
7
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18:04:56 25-01-08 MFS: MFS *CFSRES INC065 25/01/08 18:04,RESPOND RCR,MAIN NORTH RD,TARLEE MAP 0 0 0 TG097, DETAILS FROM TARLEE - NEAR GILES CNR,RIVN19 TARL00 CFS Riverton Response
Long way from a Dirt Rd at Owen :-o
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Long way from a Dirt Rd at Owen
depends on if it was on main north rd or giles cnr rd
how ever it is along way for balaklava to come and the closest saas crew that day were kapunda who had already left for a pick up in adelaide.
it is compulsory for all ses members to do Fisrt aid RCR unit or not
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Slight correct - all Rescue members but yes you are right not just RCR.
Thanks for the info though - didn't know where Owen was :oops:
cheers
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the job was at giles corner which is ten mins north of tarlee not even close to owen
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1916042 12:02:17 30-01-08 KA81 Cat2 Russell St, Kadina C124 L10 SAAS Kadina
1907895 12:13:54 30-01-08 MFS: MFS *CFSRES INC020 30/01/08 12:13,RESPOND RCR,RUSSELL ST,KADINA MAP 0 0 0 TG194,2 CAR MVA NEAR YOUNG STREET,KDNA19 KAD661 CFS Kadina Response
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ten mins isnt to bad least it wasnt 45 like we get some times
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If it was one of my kids trapped in a car, 10 seconds is too long ,the time discrepancy should be logged and a issues register form should be filled in.
Its amazing that SAAS would respond their crews into an seemingly unknown situation ,where do their duty of care responsibilities towards their own people lie!!
Cheers Jaff
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Maybe SAAS got the call from Police Jaff??.. - In which case it would not be their duty to respond fire service as they were not the primary call taking agency..
-I don't mind reading people bring up what they believe to be "issues".. But make sure you *can* back it with facts.
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there could have been a delay at any point of call taking and dispatching, there are so many delays between all services the other day adelaide fire sent one pump to a car fire 15mins latter CFS requested MFS to help. 15 mins latter i get a call from police re the car fire and ses required for a possible VA near by. SAPOL didnt have all the info these things happen, grow from the mistakes made deal with it there and then. then move on no point getting stuck on the past it wont help you at the next job if your still annoyed about the last one. cheers :-) :-) :-) :-)
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If it was one of my kids trapped in a car, 10 seconds is too long ,the time discrepancy should be logged and a issues register form should be filled in.
Its amazing that SAAS would respond their crews into an seemingly unknown situation ,where do their duty of care responsibilities towards their own people lie!!
Cheers Jaff
I don't know what you think of ambo's and paramedics Jaff - but give them a little credit for having some brains to think for themselves and their own safety at the very least! yes - I know...there are some idiots out there who throw it out the window in the heat of the moment - but so too is there a clown in every circus.......
to further compound your question - isn't every case that any of us attend a "seemingly unknown" situation?
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They need like a state-wide database like CRIIMSON where the emergency call taking center gets a call from a member of the public for a VA instantly they respond SAAS, SAPOL, CFS and or SES, to the incident and they can see that in this database that they have been responded, instead of going oh well we got the call from SAPOL we just assumed they'd call the CFS or whatever the case may be. SAAS do a great job thats true I dont think anyone doubts that but the time delay is completely unacceptable in this modern day and age. If CFS/SES/SAPOL/SAAS isn't needed then that will come later but everyone should be responding until proven otherwise. The delay can be the difference between life and death, fire and no-fire. Currently a response goes like this (all is fictional):
12:55 MA81 Cat 2, Dirt Rd, Mallala, POLICE REQUIRED
13:00 MA81 crew required for urgent case - contact comms
13:05 MA81 greg, fred will pick you at house
13:15 'Arrived on scene request FIRE,RESCUE fire is involved
13:16 MALLALA RESPOND VA/W ENTRAPMENTS AND FIRE 2KM ALONG DIRT RD MALLALA
13:20 MALLALA SIREN MANUALLY ACTIVATED
13:30 'Truck turns out full crew (if lucky)
13:40 'Arrives on scene well involved......
Yes the fire is an over exaggeration but they need to assume the worst until notified otherwise. Around 45+- minutes later a truck arrives all because they were not responded with the initial page it takes what 15 minutes to get a crew in a non urban fringe brigade. I mean its just craziness and if some blood sucking journalist knew this they would have a field day. But what can we do nothing unless we stare non stop at a pager site and respond to every lone cat 2 that floats up you know like ??81/181 Cat 2, Main Rd, RandomTown. I remember not that long ago there was a horrific crash near Blanchetown that resulted in fire and entrapments. I came home from school one day had a quick glance at the pager site saw a call for an ambulance going somewhere locally sure enuff a VA comes across delayed. It took 30 minutes for an ambulance to rock up to a CAT1.
This really is a serious issue!
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Yes I agree Boredmatrix every situation is a "seemingly unknown situation" when your responding as a first responder, so we bang on about make sure you all wear correct PPE and the like to give yourselves the best possible chance of getting the job done whilst minimising the risks. Wouldn't fire cover or entrapment stabilisation almost be an extension of PPE procedures for people without the adequate equipment to deal with those situations ,SAAS crews would not start treating a bleeding victim without donning latex gloves as a barrier, correct PPE procedures!!
So maybe despatch as part of there role in minimising the risk to the crews that they send ,whether it be SAAS or SAPOL who takes the call, should automatically send the complimentary services.
There have been various cases talked about on these posts over the last few months, were we have all been perplexed over "dispatch" irregularities and as
Rescuehazmat has pointed out to me, maybe without the hard facts,these are not for us to determine, put an issues register in, if you feel you have been affected and let the proper people deal withit.
As far as what I think of ambo's and paramedics ,in my dealing with them over 20 odd years ,they have never been anything but consumate professionals, who can sometimes be put into a difficult position .
Cheers Jaff
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.........I don't fully understand the CAD system, will this be resolved when its fully implemented?
I understand, that when SACAD (SA Computer Aided Dispatch)is implemented then SAAS, SES, CFS and MFS will be using the same database system based on maps. Some information can be found at https://www.sacad.so.gov.au/portal
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Can anyone explain the time discrepancy for an incident that occurred this morning, ambos responded to car rollover on the Strathalbyn-Meadows road at0225hrs. CFS and SES were responded to inc no 7 at 0259hrs car rollover Strathalbyn-Meadows road 4kms towards Meadows ,I assume the same incident.
That unless my maths is incorrect is a delay of response time of 34mins.
Question do SAPOL or SAAS carry dry powder fire extinguishers for perhaps using in the unfortunate event of an entrapment with a fire starting and no fire cover on scene.
Question do SAPOL or SAAS as a procedure at an accident scene check that the car involved ignition is turned off and in gear and handbrake applied.
Cheers Jaff
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All police and SAAS have dry chems,but only 2kg max one would hope that the brigade would find out why it took sooo long for them to be paged...
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Can anyone explain the time discrepancy for an incident that occurred this morning, ambos responded to car rollover on the Strathalbyn-Meadows road at0225hrs. CFS and SES were responded to inc no 7 at 0259hrs car rollover Strathalbyn-Meadows road 4kms towards Meadows ,I assume the same incident.
That unless my maths is incorrect is a delay of response time of 34mins.
Question do SAPOL or SAAS carry dry powder fire extinguishers for perhaps using in the unfortunate event of an entrapment with a fire starting and no fire cover on scene.
Question do SAPOL or SAAS as a procedure at an accident scene check that the car involved ignition is turned off and in gear and handbrake applied.
Cheers Jaff
up to the brigade effected by the incident to lodge a greivance form...
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1924063 19:13:23 01-02-08 S181 Cat2 O/s 18 Hawk Hill Rd, Crafers West 144 K5 SAAS: Stirling
1908998 19:34:53 01-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC068 01/02/08 19:34,RESPOND RCR,18 HAWK HILL RD,CRAFERS WEST MAP 144 K 5 TG136,CAR VS TREE AND ROAD SIGNS,STRL19 ALDG00 CFS: Stirling
More the of same, 21 minutes this time.....
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There have been a number of MVA'S today where SAAS where paged first and then some 20 to up 35 mins later fire service was paged.........one call the job was 45kms from kimba what did they do get half way there then said paged ses/cfs.....
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yeah i saw that one too
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Seems to come in cycles :-(
As said previously - grievance forms are the only way to officially deal with this.
cheers
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Not everyone is that politically vested in this kind of thing!
And its not like an individual occurrence, it happens in something like 70% of all accidents, it shouldn't have to be up to the volunteers to take more of their time out to complain about this states issues....
In addition most brigades don't monitor pager scanners so theres no way of them knowing what time the ambulance was paged!
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Yep agree, however what else do you do?
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You can't do anything, thats why the system is completely filtered!!!
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Yep
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Are there any SAAS personnel that participate in posts on this website that feel that these highlighted incidents are a concern?
Unfortunately these discrepancies will no doubt one day have a very public tragedy and it shouldn't be the onus of complimentary services to police other services,but at the moment that seems to be the case.
In this computer aided time that we all dedicate our volunteer time, to doing the best we can to serve the public (our clients),it shouldn't be to much to expect that ALL services CFS ,SES and MFS included refine their callout systems/procedures to a consistent acceptable standard.
Cheers Jaff
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One thing I've thought about is when this problem is solved and fire trucks are going to begin turning up at the same time or before the ambulance does, adelaide fire / SAAS comms is going to have to advise the CFS/SES of things like MRSA/HEP/HIV. That is entirely of course if they have names of the victims and are aptly able to pull up their medical details and records. I don't know that the ambos get their names initially or anything like that, there is no law saying you have to where a medical necklace that says you have any of those diseases......anyone agree?
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Crownie24 If the past is any indicator by the time this problem gets solved most of those diseases would have been cured :wink:
Cheers Jaff
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I think you may be right!
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Ah Jaff you have hit the nail on the head!
Never mind the specifics of the different posts, the common thread is standards & procedures in most of them. And the different interpretations of them!
Maybe that is what SAFECOM should be focused on, and Crownie is right. Not only the medical issues, but also non fire rescue teams arriving prior to the fire cover(which happens a lot around here).
That is why the payed staff should be focused on these issues, maybe one solution would be a SAFECOM liaison at SAAS comms?
Anyway maybe one day it will be soughted
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Chook unfortunately these issues are something that you ,me and every concerned responder has to push up through the chain of command ,as I said on a previous post David Place is aware of the issue, but palmed my concerns onto one of his minions ,and jack has been done, a sad inditement on SAFECOM .
Cheers Jaff
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Crownie24, SAAS do not have patient details logged in the system, and at an MVA, how are the responding crews going to know the patient details before they get there? The only details the crews get is the same that the caller tells the comms call taker, and there is a select list of questions asked, and if the caller has minimal info, then the crews have to run with it.
It is also basic PPE, gloves and glasses/goggles for a start.
As for the late paging of other services, can not answer that, that is a comms thing and have little idea of there procedures, it could also be a MFS/CFS/SES comms delayed paging not just SAAS. Plus as mentioned above, can only go on the information provided by the caller(s). Also pagers fail, and don't always go through, that therefore lies with the manager/owner/operater of the paging network to fix/be aware of. Comms of course need to re-page.
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No I didn't think they did... It was just a stab in the dark... Makes everyone have to be more careful around an accident scene...but whatever...
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Are there any SAAS personnel that participate in posts on this website that feel that these highlighted incidents are a concern?
yes I am - and no I don't think it is a big problem.
HOWEVER - I currently work in metro, so don't usually suffer from issues relating to fire and rescue cover - I usually have to cancel it before it gets there!! And I never had the problem when I was in the country as the local MFS retained were very good (and nearest CFS was over 90KM away)
There will always be differing opinion on this - but my take is that no matter what systems we implement, or however we attempt to make it better - there will always be cases when the system will fall down.
I think I need to correct a point where some are thinking that the SAAS system has access to medical records or actually inputs specific patient details. this is not the case - and unless major legislative changes occur (which will only incur the wrath of civil rights activists over concerns regarding privacy and medical records access) I don't think it will ever change.
The sole purpose of the system of call-taking SAAS use is a risk adverse system which essentially evaluates the severity of a patients condition, and the likelihood of deterioration and matches it to a tasking/priority matrix - and the resulting dispatch occurs as anywhere from Category 1 to 6.
There are some questions asked which affect crew safety such as patient weight and the possibility of infectious disease - but nothing that is majorly clinically relevant - bearing in mind that the staff who answer the phones are civillians who read the questions off a screen! (yes - we're running a book on when it will be outsourced to India!!)
I don't know what the answer is, except to perhaps make a gentle reminder that at the end of the day - if there are resources which are not readily available - most emergency services staff cope with the situation at hand! personally, I think we're becoming so concerned about the nitty gritty without looking at the bigger picture. Sure - I can request a helicopter retrieval whenever I want it - and it costs a lot of money to do so..........but I have two questions for further discussion....
1)what did we do 60 years ago when NONE of us had ANY of the resources available that we do today?
2) Are we messing too much with natural selection!!??
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Bored Matrix,
Question number 2, you might be on to something. :-D
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you must be in the job as well....posting comments like that at 4 in the morning!! :evil:
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I listen to the scanners and here the number of calls for a warning of MRSA and sounds like theres a pandemic out their!!! Question though what is with Papa 1 Lima 1???
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protection for staff and clean of the gear after the job will try to get it asap for you other wise broadmatrix may be able post it b4 me
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1916034 00:38:33 02-02-08 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C89 B18 SAAS Coober Pedy
1916034 00:41:48 02-02-08 CB181 NEED A SECOND CREW MEMBER TO GO OUT WITH MIKE TO VA 20km SOUTH OF COOBER PEDY PLEASE. SAAS Coober Pedy
At least the Coober pedy CFS/SES got to keep sleeping :|
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1916034 00:38:33 02-02-08 CB181 Cat2 Stuart Hwy, Coober Pedy C89 B18 SAAS Coober Pedy
1916034 00:41:48 02-02-08 CB181 NEED A SECOND CREW MEMBER TO GO OUT WITH MIKE TO VA 20km SOUTH OF COOBER PEDY PLEASE. SAAS Coober Pedy
At least the Coober pedy CFS/SES got to keep sleeping :|
They must like talking to themselves.....long way to go and suddenly find you need Fire or Rescue :-o
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I listen to the scanners and here the number of calls for a warning of MRSA and sounds like theres a pandemic out their!!! Question though what is with Papa 1 Lima 1???
Its a table of the precautions, and methods of cleaning. - Understood better if your in the service or use it semi-regularly and know how it refers to situations. - When I learnt it, it was as is below.
Precautions:
P1 - Contact
P2 - Contact, Droplet, Eye
P3 - Contact, Droplet, Eye, Non-Pregnant
P4 - Contact, Droplet, Eye, Airborne
P5 - Contact, Droplet, Eye, Airborne, Immunity
P6 - Droplet, Eye
P7 - Contact, Immuntiy
P8 - Airborne
P9 - Droplet, Eye, Airborne
Cleaning:
L1 - Use detergant and water to clean all surf.
L2 - Use detergant, water and disinfectant to clean all surf.
L3 - Use detergant and water to clean whole ambulance.
L4 - Air ambulance, use water and detergant to clean all surfaces.
L5 - Air ambulance, use water, detergant and disinfectanct to clean.
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Cheers thanks
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1919303 08:26:22 02-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC023 02/02/08 08:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,J C SMITH RD,BERRI MAP 0 0 0 TG203,,BRI029 GLOS00 CFS Chaffey Group Officers Response
1919306 08:26:20 02-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC023 02/02/08 08:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,J C SMITH RD,BERRI MAP 0 0 0 TG203,,BRI029 GLOS00 CFS Glossop Response
1928012 08:26:11 02-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC023 02/02/08 08:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,J C SMITH RD,BERRI MAP 0 0 0 TG203,,BRI029 GLOS00 SES East Region
1918237 08:26:09 02-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC023 02/02/08 08:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,J C SMITH RD,BERRI MAP 0 0 0 TG203,,BRI029 GLOS00 SES Berri
1924962 08:25:43 02-02-08 BA71 Cat2 J.c. Smith Rd, Berri SAAS Road Crash Research
1916007 08:25:41 02-02-08 BA71 Cat2 J.c. Smith Rd, Berri SAAS Barmera
Not a bad time, less than a minute between pages.
It was a nothing job but, car had left the scene after wrecking an irrigation main breather(water everywhere).
Curious though Glossop responded instead of Berri Mets, it turns out it is about 500 mtrs from their boundary! Makes a mockery of the Big Orange comments the other day :evil:
Anyway Glossop are a good mob, and they hand the tool to turn the water off :-D
cheers
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Curious though Glossop responded instead of Berri Mets, it turns out it is about 500 mtrs from their boundary! Makes a mockery of the Big Orange comments the other day
???????? from who's boundary. Its CFS right up to the the Caltex on that road, on the Golf course side its CFS as well right through to Renmark. You may need to have a look at the respounce boundery maps. Yes it might be needed to change as it will be later but until then when they get called they go.
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Thats what I was saying, I may have been misinterpreted. It was about 500 mtrs from the SAMFS boundary (according to your map book) on the CFS side. Obviously closest resource gets responded hasn't come in yet!
My point was the other week Big Orange Sturt hwy Berri created a SAMFS response, this week JC Smith drive Berri generated a CFS response. I was just curious why?
Just for those who don't know JC Smith drive is less than a kilometre from our station. cheers
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I was told that closest resource will come in later like yeah when ever, but then was there any Fire plugs to hook up to as MFS need them I was told that this will help decide closest resource. Not sure what closest resource actually mean?
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Not sure in this case too much water was the problem :-D
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Closest resource means nearest fire service or rescue resource as the case may be.
As for the one with the Big Orange, looks at the details, Sturt Hwy Berri, you can't divide a road up, JC Smith dr, Berri, must be entirely in Glossop's area. Find me a computer system that can divide a road up given the exact same name.
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Here we go again...if there are multiple hazards why not respond the Fire Service as well :?
1924962 14:29:28 03-02-08 RI81 Cat2 Barrier Hwy, Saddleworth C259 B10 MULTIPLE HAZARDS SAAS Road Crash Research
1924334 14:29:24 03-02-08 RI81 Cat2 Barrier Hwy, Saddleworth C259 B10 MULTIPLE HAZARDS SAAS Riverton
1924962 14:31:52 03-02-08 CA81 Cat2 Barrier Hwy, Saddleworth C259 B10 MULTIPLE HAZARDS SAAS Road Crash Research
1916031 14:31:48 03-02-08 CA81 Cat2 Barrier Hwy, Saddleworth C259 B10 MULTIPLE HAZARDS SAAS Clare
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Closest resource means nearest fire service or rescue resource as the case may be.
Sounds good but what if there is no fire plugs or water points along that area and there is a fire the truck only hold 800lt. Or you go down the River flats, National parks area then what? Would all that info help suggest who to send where? My map show the Big Orange is defiantly in Monash CFS area by 2 to 3km so they will work it out soon.
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Give it time, its only been 14 mins.
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RI 81 cant get a crew and KP81 are at a sporting event and about to respond CA81 are the only response at this time while they find crews to do the job
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Closest resource means nearest fire service or rescue resource as the case may be.
Sounds good but what if there is no fire plugs or water points along that area and there is a fire the truck only hold 800lt. Or you go down the River flats, National parks area then what? Would all that info help suggest who to send where? My map show the Big Orange is defiantly in Monash CFS area by 2 to 3km so they will work it out soon.
Thats all very well, but they are working with the old system, and the big orange doesn't show up on a map. They might not do everything right, but sometimes you can't get anymore info.
The new system will hopefully work with landmarks.
By the way, most MFS pumps have 1500 litres, only the ROSA's have less.
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JC Smith drive starts on the Berri side of the golf course and finishes just at Mortimer rd (both start in a SAMFS area).
But I guess you are right, was just curious thats all. As the town is expanding, it would be nice to know what is going on. Interestingly the Adelaide fire operator, told me Glossop was responding when I rang in to accept the task that hasn't happened before.
cheers
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Give it time, its only been 14 mins.
14:47:03 03-02-08 RI81 Full Crew has not responded - any available members please contact comcen SAAS Riverton
The ambulance aint there yet,at least CFS would have been by now :-o
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CA81 isnt to far off and they are working on a full crew from riverton as well as trying to get kapunda relief so they can go to back u clare and yes fire and rescue may have been there by now manoora CFS would have been anyway saddleworth SES would be on the way or getting a crew
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CA81 isnt to far off and they are working on a full crew from riverton as well as trying to get kapunda relief so they can go to back u clare and yes fire and rescue may have been there by now manoora CFS would have been anyway saddleworth SES would be on the way or getting a crew
CFS & SES have not been responded at all yet :?
14:51:33 03-02-08 Hi Craig - please ring Dieter in EOC re a tasking problem - cheers Dieter SAAS GROUP
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I saw the Kapunda police go past...like 10 minutes ago....
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JC Smith drive starts on the Berri side of the golf course and finishes just at Mortimer rd (both start in a SAMFS area).
But I guess you are right, was just curious thats all. As the town is expanding, it would be nice to know what is going on. Interestingly the Adelaide fire operator, told me Glossop was responding when I rang in to accept the task that hasn't happened before.
cheers
Sorry to say Chook if you look at the Maps from SAMFS you will see that they are in CFS area but should be MFS. But if CFS get the call they go. :evil: :lol:
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Thanks obviously more detailed than a CFS map book :oops:
Anyway thaks for the info
cheers
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no rescue minor injury's only one car required car is off the road and not a danger to public however no idea why Rescue and fire wasnt called as the call came from sapol and the callers mobile went flat
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Give it time, its only been 14 mins.
14:47:03 03-02-08 RI81 Full Crew has not responded - any available members please contact comcen SAAS Riverton
The ambulance aint there yet,at least CFS would have been by now :-o
How do you know CFS would have been there.. They are volunteers aren't they?..
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Not sure why ses or cfs where not paged for that job looked and sounded as if saas where having problems getting a crew,I had a friend here fromrural ambulance vic and he was horrified that now rescue or fire cover had been paged for the riverton job. he said if that was in vic,all services would have been sent....
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Ah but thats Victoria where things are done by the book :wink:
Here in SA it is what ever shift is on and where it is in the state :roll:
But we have a good system, so lets not criticize it :evil:
Seriously if some thing is not done soon like it or not the public will find out.
cheers
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Give it time, its only been 14 mins.
14:47:03 03-02-08 RI81 Full Crew has not responded - any available members please contact comcen SAAS Riverton
The ambulance aint there yet,at least CFS would have been by now :-o
How do you know CFS would have been there.. They are volunteers aren't they?..
The fact that SAAS didnt respond any other services is the issue and topic of this thread, and it was half an hour before a ambulance crew arrived on scene,other resources should have been dispatched.Even though the injuries were only minor,still a long time to wait for an emergency service to get to you whoever they might be.A vehicle accident has the potential to create other hazards for SAAS crews and the patients, and if they are not responding the fire service could lead to an unnecessary death :?
How many times have we seen this on the pager sites without any fire cover being responded....100's
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seems that the comcens are being filled with people from the metropolitan area with no clue how things go in/over the hills and past the northern/southern suburbs.
"Police required" is a slim chance that a single cop who will get there much later than SAAS, will be able to even provide enough scene protection on a windy road.
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The single cop may be covering a large area where the local copper is on his weekend off,country cops cover large areas when other one man stations are on a day off... I am sure if SAAS keep going this way its going to hit the papers better still those paid staff who come into this site may be keeping date's and time's of what is going on.......yes in Victoria they do it by the book and do it well but at least all service's are sent to a job in a tmely manner.....
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Boredmatrix, as a ambo ,these incidents and the comments they raise ,are they the sort of thing that the greater SAAS service are aware of ? and if so do you ever see change on the horizon either by force (coronial) or a voluntary, procedural change!
Cheers Jaff
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Jaff
these types of incidents are fairly few and far between fortunately. The biggest issue is that SAAS simply doesn't have the resources in the country! I don't have to spell it out that people don't have as much time to volunteer anymore - and with SAAS's requirements for training and qualifying for cert IV - it puts more strain on volunteers!
There are a number of volunteer stations which may well be (already) earmarked for 'takeover' in the future by career teams - but the politics involved in removing a competent volunteer team is ridiculously horrendous!!
SAAS has made a lot of changes in the way they manage volunteer teams in the last couple of years - and most of it is positive, but there still may come a time when the need for more paid staff in areas which have been traditionally volunteer stations comes around. Integrated crewing (ie: para and a volunteer as is used in Vic and QLD) is an option that has always been on the table - but just never implemented - SAAS only just have enough staff for their country and metro career stations!
As for changes happening by force (ie: coronial) - it's a tough one. How much jurisdiction does the coroner have over who volunteers their time to do this job? how would this affect recruitment and retention? It'd take just one volunteer ambo to get roasted in the coroners court - and it could be the first domino!
changes don't happen overnight - but to SAAS's credit, changes are a-foot!
yes -I think SAAS is well aware of their shortfalls - but like most things in the Government domain - there is very little scope to fix things overnight! It's almost an exciting time in SAAS at the moment - with new executive management coming onboard from OUTSIDE of SAAS - to a new CEO this year, plus becoming solely a Gov't Dept - there will be a lot of changes happening in the next couple of years - but as to the extent of impact on service delivery - only time will tell just how much change will happen!
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The short staffed sapol and saas country issues are even more reason for the CFS/SES to be responded to such MVA`s as the one yesterday. In a timely manner also. Assistance can be provided for traffic control and first aid at the very least.
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Give it time, its only been 14 mins.
14:47:03 03-02-08 RI81 Full Crew has not responded - any available members please contact comcen SAAS Riverton
The ambulance aint there yet,at least CFS would have been by now :-o
How do you know CFS would have been there.. They are volunteers aren't they?..
The fact that SAAS didnt respond any other services is the issue and topic of this thread, and it was half an hour before a ambulance crew arrived on scene,other resources should have been dispatched.Even though the injuries were only minor,still a long time to wait for an emergency service to get to you whoever they might be.A vehicle accident has the potential to create other hazards for SAAS crews and the patients, and if they are not responding the fire service could lead to an unnecessary death :?
How many times have we seen this on the pager sites without any fire cover being responded....100's
Im referring to *your* comment, that the CFS WOULD have already been there.. - This comment is incorrect, as you have no idea whether they would or wouldn't be.. - I wont start on the number of times a firefighter or other service member has said "Oh mate, they only have a bust shoulder" as they are walking someone around a vehicle after an accident with no care taken for lateral or cervical injuries.. - We can all pick on things with other services, why not leave this to the *ACTUAL* brigades involved/concerned to take these issues forward.
I find it ammusing, that *most* the people posting are not experiencing any problems, would suggest things are fine with the level of response in your neck(s) of the woods.. Yet people love picking out problems elsewhere?.. - Go figure..
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No one knew if the CAT CONVERTER was roasting away at the grass and a fire could have started at any moment, the CFS would have been there because they have a greater proportion of members than the local SAAS unit and Riverton/Saddleworth CFS are very prompt at response. These are highly trained people who have seen many of these accidents I'm sure that they wouldn't have got someone with internal injuries out and doing star jumps..... First aid is better than no aid...
I hate it when people generalize the CFS just because one dumb scheiße makes a mistake doesn't mean the entire CFS is going to make that same mistake.
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As an aside guys, I took one of the calls to SAAS for the Manoora VA, and while I was still on the phone to the original caller, another person was notifying SAPOL and MFS/CFS/SES, so there was certainly no delay from us telling everyone else about it. This is standard procedure for all country VA's, any shortfalls in this is an individual Call Taker problem, but everyone I work with is well aware of it.
Rule of thumb I use is if it's country, everyone comes out to play, no matter how minor it may seem.
As for who was tasked, I couldn't say anything as I wasn't involved in that side of it.
Oh, and the MULTIPLE HAZARDS on pages automatically comes up when we select more than one hazard (be it Traffic, Spillage, Animals, or Police Required) - this quite often happens at VA's as the CAD sometimes adds Police Required, so as soon as we add Traffic as a hazard, it'll go to Multiple Hazards.
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Thats interesting I guess Adelaide fire is the one playing god now....
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No one knew if the CAT CONVERTER was roasting away at the grass and a fire could have started at any moment, the CFS would have been there because they have a greater proportion of members than the local SAAS unit and Riverton/Saddleworth CFS are very prompt at response. These are highly trained people who have seen many of these accidents I'm sure that they wouldn't have got someone with internal injuries out and doing star jumps..... First aid is better than no aid...
I hate it when people generalize the CFS just because one dumb filtered makes a mistake doesn't mean the entire CFS is going to make that same mistake.
Not generalising, not calling anyone anything. - Point is, the original comment (and now yours), is not accurate. You CAN'T gaurentee a response! What if no one rocked up because they were all busy?!! I have full faith in the local crews, and have no doubt they are great operators, but at the end of the day, they/we are volunteers. If no one is around for some freak reason, the truck doesn't leave the station- That is all I am/was saying.
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In their defence - there may still be a few people here that don't call them, but I doubt it.
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As an aside guys, I took one of the calls to SAAS for the Manoora VA, and while I was still on the phone to the original caller, another person was notifying SAPOL and MFS/CFS/SES, so there was certainly no delay from us telling everyone else about it. This is standard procedure for all country VA's, any shortfalls in this is an individual Call Taker problem, but everyone I work with is well aware of it.
Rule of thumb I use is if it's country, everyone comes out to play, no matter how minor it may seem.
As for who was tasked, I couldn't say anything as I wasn't involved in that side of it.
Oh, and the MULTIPLE HAZARDS on pages automatically comes up when we select more than one hazard (be it Traffic, Spillage, Animals, or Police Required) - this quite often happens at VA's as the CAD sometimes adds Police Required, so as soon as we add Traffic as a hazard, it'll go to Multiple Hazards.
Thanks for the factual info. - I love it when facts, put people back into their boxes!! To all those who ragged on SAAS *without* knowing the facts (just look back and there are a few of you), I hope you read Will's post and sit back and think about what you write next time.
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Hi Will0936, its looks like you are in the dispatch section of SAAS ,from your posts,if so maybe you can let me know if there is a service level agreement for the role of dispatch/operator .Welcome aboard as RescueHazmat said its good to get the hard facts from the source.
Cheers Jaff
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So now we know that the problem is in MFS COMMS........ I am sure we have been saying it for a while...........
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Ah but they are saying "not us" & SAAS are saying "well its not us either".
So where is the road block then?
Could it possibly be a mixture of both? Who knows - we don't seem to have the same problems - lately.
cheers
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Hahahahaha, This is becoming like primary school here, lets all pick on the other services cause ours is superiour. CFS vs MFS vs SES vs SAAS. Calm down. 99% of time all services are responded (country) and in a timely manner. Metro, 50% of time, by time others are there, case cancelled as only a fender bender and all parties driven away.
Maybe those of you worried (about paging delay/or nil paging) need to report to your line manager and get them to follow through the appropriate channels, this forum won't fix it, and neither will whinging.
At the end of the day the SAAS volunteers do a fantastic job, and some stations struggle to recruit and retain, so it is the same people turning out all the time. Some of them work (and live) out of their town's limits (eg farmers) so response will be delayed, they are not sitting on station waiting for that pager to go off, and I would think the same would go for CFS and SES.
How many of you have actually sat in the SAAS communication centre with a call taker and dispatcher and got a full understanding of what they do? Especially when case numbers exceed 1000 for a day.
Just my view and some food for thought, untill you have a first hand experience you should not be to quick to pass judgement. I do not pretend to know anything about fighting fires, I leave that to you firies. :-D
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Hahahahaha, This is becoming like primary school here, lets all pick on the other services cause ours is superiour. CFS vs MFS vs SES vs SAAS. Calm down. 99% of time all services are responded (country) and in a timely manner. Metro, 50% of time, by time others are there, case cancelled as only a fender bender and all parties driven away.
Maybe those of you worried (about paging delay/or nil paging) need to report to your line manager and get them to follow through the appropriate channels, this forum won't fix it, and neither will whinging.
At the end of the day the SAAS volunteers do a fantastic job, and some stations struggle to recruit and retain, so it is the same people turning out all the time. Some of them work (and live) out of their town's limits (eg farmers) so response will be delayed, they are not sitting on station waiting for that pager to go off, and I would think the same would go for CFS and SES.
How many of you have actually sat in the SAAS communication centre with a call taker and dispatcher and got a full understanding of what they do? Especially when case numbers exceed 1000 for a day.
Just my view and some food for thought, untill you have a first hand experience you should not be to quick to pass judgement. I do not pretend to know anything about fighting fires, I leave that to you firies. :-D
Well it's fairly simple call for fire/rescue if its a VA at the same time you call for SAAS thats what everyone wants.
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Trouble is no one is blaming anyone - there is obviously a problem, Wills info is highly valuable, so is the stuff from the SAMFS comms guys.
However it does not fix the problem!
As Crownie said "Call fire/Rescue" when it a VA, Knackers there wasn't any mention of the SAAS vollies in relation to this.
And reports have gone through Line management, still keeps comming up.
And yes most of the time everything goes right, however what if it was your family involved in that 1%?
And nobody is saying one service is better than another - we all have our issues its the nature of the beast.
I'm sure that everyone here is after the best possible service for our community, I know I do! And here is a thought; in industry we go through our performance every day - both good & bad. Its not a pleasant experience when you are trying to explain bad numbers. However thats how we learn & grow!
If you remember years ago someone decided that it would be a great idea to get St Johns out of the ambulances & then decided it was a great idea to close down the country commcens - maybe we are now reaping the benefits of that decision :wink:
cheers
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And yes most of the time everything goes right, however what if it was your family involved in that 1%?
Without seeming insensitive, which i am sure i will get called for this, unfortunately it is a cold hard fact of life that people do die and people do get seriously injured, yeah it sucks but it happens and most of the time the damage is done before any emergency service are responded or can get to them. The fact that most of these occurrences are in the country probably double the chance of them happening because of their remoteness from emergency services and from other people who might be passing by.
What ever way you want to look at this there is never going to be a 100% success rate in anything aspect of CFS, MFS, SAAS, SAPOL, SES or any other agency in the world. There is always going to be that 1% chance that something is not going to be done correctly whether it be through human error, which happens from time to time for a huge number of reasons, or through a lack of information given to emergency services from people who call these jobs in. Through feel free to correct me if you are perfect and could do the job right 100% of the time! :wink:
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Yes of course you are right, sometimes it doesn't matter what occurs the PT outcome will be the same.
No not saying I'm perfect - just reducing the chances of a bad outcome by removing/reducing all of the controlables isn't such a bad idea :wink:.
And thats why we have debriefs, so that we can examine what happened, what went right, what can be improved etc - don't need to tell you guys about it you do it yourselves all of the time.
However in the health industry & other industries here & overseas they are now taking it a step further, by not just accepting that people die (the old **** happens) - but did we do it right? Could this outcome been changed?
Its called root cause analysis, not finding blame, not pointing fingers but instead finding the root causes of why these things happen & how measures can be put in place to prevent the same error occurring again.
Anyway it is highly unlikely we will find common ground on this subject.
so cheers
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Its called root cause analysis, not finding blame, not pointing fingers but instead finding the root causes of why these things happen & how measures can be put in place to prevent the same error occurring again.
Anyway it is highly unlikely we will find common ground on this subject.
so cheers
Too bad your comment this time is so far from your comments previous...No finding blame and no finger pointing seems exactly like what is happening lately in here!
However I agree that no common ground will ever be found because it seems everyone has their thoughts on who is to blame and how to fix the people who are the problem.
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A major part of emergency service work is reactive work. As such all services should strive to get the reaction to an incident correct 100% of the time.
The initial reaction (response) in this case, is not happening 100% and that is why we encourage all these incidents to be reported by the appropriate people in the appropriate manner.
I think the main gripe here is the perceived (or actual?) lack of investigation/action from the reports lodged.
People need to vent occasionally, just need to make sure that any person/service is not being targeted unnecessarily.
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Faux Pas,hopefully there is common ground amongst all of us --the want for the best possible emergency services-- how we achieve that is debateable, but looking closely at our performances and being open about our shortcomings and accepting constructive criticism will surely help ALL of the services to better their service delivery.
Some may look through these threads and look at them as just plain "service bashings",but I believe that they highlight possible deficancies and that may be hard to accept if your agency is the one highlighted, but we as 1st responders should always be trying to better ourselves and peer evaluation is usefull.
Indisputable history shows none of us can take the moral high ground.
Cheers Jaff
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Without seeming insensitive, which i am sure i will get called for this, unfortunately it is a cold hard fact of life that people do die and people do get seriously injured, yeah it sucks but it happens and most of the time the damage is done before any emergency service are responded or can get to them.
yes - it's called natural selection - and I'm of the strong belief that we mess with it far too much!!
let's face another fact - if it wasn't for the 'goodwill' (sic) of emergency services in rescuing people from their severely smashed cars in a timely fashion - they would die. Instead - they are alive- eating pureed food, getting regular UTI's from their catheter and sitting around all day in Julia Farr Centre.
lets ponder that for a minute shall we?
yes - I'm pro life, but I'm also about quality over quantity!!
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Jaff, I agree with you that there is a need for looking at and accepting shortcomings as emergency services but i think that there is more 'service bashing' than constructive criticism going on and i think that a lot of it comes down to all services, staff and volunteers, accepting that it is never going to be 100% achievable all the time. I am also certain that there is no one service that could take the moral high ground. Sorry if i haven't been able to express my view clearly to show that.
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The other indisputable is service rivalaries,these for the most part are very healthy ,those of us that have attended mutual aid jobs ,change of stations,and interstate deployments with a mix of vol and paid crew, always come back with a lot of respect for the other services.
So maybe some of these posts should be tempered with the possibility that some service rivalry has coloured them somewhat.
Cheers Jaff
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Just a small correction - if you look at all of the posts of mine I haven't pointed the finger at anyone or service in relation to this topic!
And yes I'm a great believer in natural selection (Darwin awards for example):wink:
And no I certainly wouldn't like to spend the rest of my life in the Julia Farr centre.
And yes I agree the most people are their own worst enemy.
However as far as the community is concerned, they believe we try our best (vollie, payed, full timer, whatever)every single time. So What is wrong with trying to get as close to 100% as humanly possible?
As I tell my crews everytime we have a less than favourable outcome "We are not angels as long as we did everything properly & we did our best so be it" thats not just for Mva's but missing kids/ old people etc etc.
So on my part there isn't any interservice rivalry.
Thought before I go - One day when we were practicing grenade throwing I asked the tiny female medic Why was she there? and she replied "Well someone has to pick up your bits and pieces when you stuff up!" then she continued to read her book.
Maybe sometimes thats what we do :wink:
cheers
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So What is wrong with trying to get as close to 100% as humanly possible?
.......and the nail on the head award goes to chook!
what is wrong with trying to get to 100% most of the time? Absolutely nothing - but it's all relative!
as a paramedic working in the city - trying to deal with numbskulls at 3am who've called us for their stubbed toe or their 6 month old cough, or 2 day old backpain (and just want us to give them something for the pain and go away) gets a little tiring after a while, especially when we're dealing with these idiots while someone with chestpain has to wait 20 minutes because the only car available in their area is tied up dealing with a peanut who doesn't think their ingrown hair can wait to see the GP in the morning, or it's too hard to hop in their own car and drive!
- and believe you me - with everyone sitting back telling us that we have to work harder and faster "because it's your job" - sooner or later there's going to be a big crack start appearing in my ability to maintain 100% ALL the time!!
Invariably - as a volunteer who may do anywhere from 1 to 10 jobs a week - you generally have enough adrenaline and drive to work long and hard for each job. Try compounding that same workload into one 10 hour day, or a 14 hour nightshift - and you'll find that burnout happens much quicker than you realise.
while the majority of users of this forum are volunteers in regional SA, and some from metro fringe areas - there is still bigger picture stuff which can't be seen by all! I'm not attempting to hammer any particular point home here - but understanding that while we're all doing a job - we are all still human! This element of humanity often seems to be covered over by some individuals keen sense of skewed reality which causes them to think they are some kind of super-hero!
your safety and health and welfare still rests with you first! If it's something thats bigger than you can handle - it gets handballed up the chain to those who hold the purse strings to deal with!
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boredmatrix you should have a read of http://randomreality.blogware.com/
he's a UK ambo but sounds like similar problems to what you're talking about.
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yes darius - Tom Reynolds (pseudonym obviously!) has had that blog going for a while - only ever read it once due to lack of time! :-P
he's also written a book on the life of an EMT - and the hours of sheer boredom interspersed with moments of sheer terror!
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Without seeming insensitive, which i am sure i will get called for this, unfortunately it is a cold hard fact of life that people do die and people do get seriously injured, yeah it sucks but it happens and most of the time the damage is done before any emergency service are responded or can get to them.
yes - it's called natural selection - and I'm of the strong belief that we mess with it far too much!!
let's face another fact - if it wasn't for the 'goodwill' (sic) of emergency services in rescuing people from their severely smashed cars in a timely fashion - they would die. Instead - they are alive- eating pureed food, getting regular UTI's from their catheter and sitting around all day in Julia Farr Centre.
lets ponder that for a minute shall we?
yes - I'm pro life, but I'm also about quality over quantity!!
scheiße and your an ambulance officer.....well i'm going to refuse if I get one with that attitude....
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This is not a question of ethics, bring it back on track people....
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Hi Will0936, its looks like you are in the dispatch section of SAAS ,from your posts,if so maybe you can let me know if there is a service level agreement for the role of dispatch/operator .Welcome aboard as RescueHazmat said its good to get the hard facts from the source.
Cheers Jaff
Not sure what you mean by SLA? As in do we have Standard Operating Procedures for who else to call?
Ah but they are saying "not us" & SAAS are saying "well its not us either".
So where is the road block then?
Could it possibly be a mixture of both? Who knows - we don't seem to have the same problems - lately.
cheers
I have no doubt it's a bit of both - hell, I know I've forgotten to call Adelaide Fire for a VA in Barmera, it was only when SAPOL asked if I'd called them that I remembered. Quite often someone else in the room will also confirm if everyone else has been told. The info I provided above was only for the particular job.
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filtered and your an ambulance officer.....well i'm going to refuse if I get one with that attitude....
Because the fact that boredmatrix understands that life as a vegetable isn't life, it is merely an existence, is really going to impact upon how he treats his patients.
Just like the fact I believe in the fundamentals of communism, am pro-choice, support homosexual marriages and do not believe in a god really impacts the way that I extinguish your burning house.
:roll:
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filtered and your an ambulance officer.....well i'm going to refuse if I get one with that attitude....
Because the fact that boredmatrix understands that life as a vegetable isn't life, it is merely an existence, is really going to impact upon how he treats his patients.
Just like the fact I believe in the fundamentals of communism, am pro-choice, support homosexual marriages and do not believe in a god really impacts the way that I extinguish your burning house.
:roll:
I understand what he's saying but I hope to god he doesn't use his own judgment on deciding who would be better of dead...
In addition my house doesn't/won't catch on fire....
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I understand what he's saying but I hope to god he doesn't use his own judgment on deciding who would be better of dead...
In addition my house doesn't/won't catch on fire....
Wow big attitude there!
I think that you are pretty harsh even suggesting that he would use his own judgement to decide who is better off dead, i don't think any person in that position would do anything of the sort. I don't think that you quite got the point that he was trying to make!
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I understand what he's saying but I hope to god he doesn't use his own judgment on deciding who would be better of dead...
In addition my house doesn't/won't catch on fire....
Wow big attitude there!
I think that you are pretty harsh even suggesting that he would use his own judgement to decide who is better off dead, i don't think any person in that position would do anything of the sort. I don't think that you quite got the point that he was trying to make!
Yep ok your right, I have no clue.... back on subject....
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I'm not having a go saying you don't know what you are talking about i just think that the comment you made was very unjust! Just my opinion is all, not right or wrong!
Question for other vollies with CFS or with SAAS who are out in the country.
What are relations like between the two services when they are on scene together at a job like a MVA etc? Do the services get along well and work together or do they not?
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Not sure what you mean by SLA? As in do we have Standard Operating Procedures for who else to call?
He would be meaning a Service Level Agreement. A set of Minimum tasks to be met as part of running a effective comcen. the SLA for MFS comcen has taken a long time to be met. (The MFS comcen SLA is a GREAT read).
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Depends the crew I have worked with in Barmera are excellent, some I have worked with in my new area not as brilliant.
There can be an attitude of superiority from some, others are great!
Doesn't so much depend on the service they are in, its more to do with the individual.
Have struck the same with SAMFS, CFS & dare I say it other SES crews! :-(
Its filtered annoying when the persons involved haven't even finished their probation yet & are running around like King filtered!
However back on subject as I said depends on the individual & the situation their in.
cheers
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filtered and your an ambulance officer.....well i'm going to refuse if I get one with that attitude....
Because the fact that boredmatrix understands that life as a vegetable isn't life, it is merely an existence, is really going to impact upon how he treats his patients.
Just like the fact I believe in the fundamentals of communism, am pro-choice, support homosexual marriages and do not believe in a god really impacts the way that I extinguish your burning house.
:roll:
Took me a while 6739264 to figure out where you were going with your quote but I think I've got it!
The fundamentals of communism - You use a state owned appliance.
Your pro-choice - You decide if you go to extinguish his burning house.
You support homosexual marriages - You think that BSP fitting are mighty fine but, WAYJAX fittings are also good
You dont beleive in god - God does'nt save burning houses , but we can.
Yeah I think I get Ya!! :-D
Cheers Jaff
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Because the fact that boredmatrix understands that life as a vegetable isn't life, it is merely an existence, is really going to impact upon how he treats his patients.
thank you 6739264 - I was beginning to wonder if there was in fact any intelligent beings who posted on this forum!
i highly doubt that you will find any paramedic who will not do everything they can in order to attempt a save - but at the end of the day - there is sometimes nothing you can do but watch someone take their last breath through their bloodied and mangled face and completely flaccid chest wall while their bilateral compounded femur fractures literally pour blood on the ground and whats left of the brain in their head through the open skull fracture stops pulsating! I don't think there will be one coroner in the country who would roast you for that!
are the ignorant ones amoungst us getting the picture yet??
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Because the fact that boredmatrix understands that life as a vegetable isn't life, it is merely an existence, is really going to impact upon how he treats his patients.
i highly doubt that you will find any paramedic who will not do everything they can in order to attempt a save - but at the end of the day - there is sometimes nothing you can do but watch someone take their last breath through their bloodied and mangled face and completely flaccid chest wall while their bilateral compounded femur fractures literally pour blood on the ground and whats left of the brain in their head through the open skull fracture stops pulsating! I don't think there will be one coroner in the country who would roast you for that!
are the ignorant ones amoungst us getting the picture yet??
Im hearing ya.
Question for other vollies with CFS or with SAAS who are out in the country.
What are relations like between the two services when they are on scene together at a job like a MVA etc? Do the services get along well and work together or do they not?
The services up here get along really well, everyone understands each others job well and most people know each other on a personal level. It also hepls that we are always working with just local guys, being so far from extra help, it makes you click better when its the same gang.
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I think we all got the picture - been on jobs just like you described. And helped your guys try and keep the persons going. And watched while the discussion was made whether to keep going or not. Sometimes yes sometimes no, and these individuals all significantly contributed to their own demise.
I have got very angry at some jobs where the individual concerned decided to wrap themselves around a tree, drying rack etc - one job even ruined that years Christmas!
Remember we are the ones who "baby sit" the body for hours on end & still have to cut them out when just about everyone else has gone home!.
But that has very little to do with the topic, it was in fact a nice(?) deflection from the subject.
Its of absolutely of no consequence whether you are prochoice, believe in a superior being or whatever; at the end of the day we provide a service & the public rightly or wrongly expects that service 7 days a week 365 days a year. So responding the appropriate resources in a timely manner is a requirement of the service & needs to happen! It doesn't matter who or what the road block is, it just needs to be fixed - How? Don't know. But up here the local SAPOL guys ring Adelaide fire to ensure all resources have been responded.
And I agree personally I wouldn't want to be a "veg" & don't think any professional including yourself would ever let personal feelings cloud their judgement (I wanted to punch the guy wrapped around the tree for example:-(), however just because our opinions are different to yours Boardmatrix, but that doesn't make us less intelligent!
Cheers and have an error free day :wink:
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Anyone know the details of inc no 011 page for mclaren flat to a MVA at 0640hrs pennys hill rd this morning.?
Was this the same job that SAAS were paged to at 0611hrs mva pennys hill rd this morning.?
Was there fire cover in place.?
Cheers Jaff
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put in a notification of issue and ye shall find (my group does one for every such occurance in our area).
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Not my area Darius,just curious and highlighting ,though I certainly agree every such occurence needs to be followed up.
Cheers Jaff
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Not my area Darius
Cheers Jaff
then who honestly cares... not having a go directly at you Jaff (or at least not meaning to be rude) but this sort of thing seems to be a huge problem on this forum... people comment & whinge about things that dont affect them in the slightest.
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then who honestly cares... not having a go directly at you Jaff (or at least not meaning to be rude) but this sort of thing seems to be a huge problem on this forum... people comment & whinge about things that dont affect them in the slightest.
Don't say that too loud... otherwise these boards wont have anything posted on them.
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Not my area Darius
Cheers Jaff
then who honestly cares... not having a go directly at you Jaff (or at least not meaning to be rude) but this sort of thing seems to be a huge problem on this forum... people comment & whinge about things that dont affect them in the slightest.
No offence taken Mack - Your right this particular incident did not affect me ,neither has one of my family been injured by a serial drink driver who continues to plays russian roulette with other peoples safety ,but it would certainly concern me if this continued to happen, and no one questioned it.
If you look at my previous posts on this issue ,Ive been consistent in my concerns and asking the question WHY? As has been said also by many others there can be compounding and mitigating circumstances that cause some delays, accepted ,but that should not stop any of us asking the questions.
I also intend no offence with my comments and questions and if any one has offended that was not my intent.
Cheers Jaff
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Not my area Darius
Cheers Jaff
then who honestly cares... not having a go directly at you Jaff (or at least not meaning to be rude) but this sort of thing seems to be a huge problem on this forum... people comment & whinge about things that dont affect them in the slightest.
Claps!.. - But mack, those that have nothing better to do but stare at the pager site all day would go troppo!
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put in a notification of issue and ye shall find (my group does one for every such occurance in our area).
I thought the law stated that it is illegal to act on the information found on a scanner/over the air, or am I mistaken....I'd be careful because some prick lawyer could turn it around and lock you up for breaking the law...our legal system is good like that :|
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If you look at my previous posts on this issue ,Ive been consistent in my concerns and asking the question WHY? As has been said also by many others there can be compounding and mitigating circumstances that cause some delays, accepted ,but that should not stop any of us asking the questions.
I also intend no offence with my comments and questions and if any one has offended that was not my intent.
Cheers Jaff
i understand that, just saying it... as this thread has gone round in circles for the past 20 pages.... what with Chook posting every incident his unit goes too, every CFS person blaming SAAS comms, and what not....
no offence to anyone... but i think everyone knows theres an issue, and everyone has said many times.. just fill out the forms, dont spam the forum anymore..
ahhh my rant/spam message done.
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Mack, checked the last 10 pages of posts - slight exaggeration.
Not sure why I'm single out - anyway care factor zero.
Yes basically everyone agrees there is an issue around 50% also believe that going through the grievance system does not work.
So ok no more filtered about this particular issue - cool.
As we all know there is plenty of other ways to skin a cat :wink:
cheers
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just an example, as we seem to hear about every riverland job.
no offence meant.
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No worries
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Oh I know if the grievance system doesn't work why doesn't everyone go to the media!! :-o
Oh wait no that's already happened and hey look things are still the same. Did anyone ever stop to think why? Probably because the CFS not being called can be justified.
Now this will, I am sure, see me cop an ear bashing from 90% of the forum but I will say it anyway. Consider that CFS was sent to all MVA's, including every little fender bender in the state, now not only does this tie up an emergency service that might be required elsewhere but it would also put increased pressure on all the comcens and waste a lot of time and money that could be used elsewhere. On the other side of the scale, how many times have you been to a MVA where the vehicle catches fire after a service has arrived on scene??? If there is no real threat of fire, no need for spill clean up and there is no need for rescue or assistance with first aid then why is there a need for CFS to be out there. This is why there are times that CFS are called way after the fact because SAAS don't need a bunch of vollies getting in their way while they do their job.
Having come from a reasonably busy brigade you get sick of responding to nothing MVA's it is a waste of volunteers time. I think that most of the problem is that people are just sticky beaks and want to get their call rates up! Just my opinion.
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Faux Pas - love your work!! I'm one who won't be bashing you for saying it!
I know the scenario you're talking about - metro paramedics do it ALL the time! It;s actually a refreshing change to rock up to a VA and actually have to do something!
i think the point that most forget is this;
1)how much $$ does it cost to turn one appliance out?
2)multiply this figure by the number of numpty VA's you attend in a year (at say -Salisbury for example)
<insert total dollar figure here>
now - insert that equated dollar figure back into third party insurance payouts figures for a year.
finally - sit back and get ready to complain when your car rego goes up by twice the rate of CPI next year.
yes - I know volunteers aren't paid, but it still costs just more than your time to turn out to every single VA!!
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Oh I know if the grievance system doesn't work why doesn't everyone go to the media!! :-o
Oh wait no that's already happened and hey look things are still the same. Did anyone ever stop to think why? Probably because the CFS not being called can be justified.
I think that most of the problem is that people are just sticky beaks and want to get their call rates up! Just my opinion.
Now, I'm sure that if we look at every grievance based around "We didn't get called" 95% of them will be based on the fact that a brigade has heard about a decent or interesting job *kinda* within their area, or that because of Hazmat/Rescue they should (according to them) have been there.
There are a few issues that need fixing - Yes, I totally agree and have been on both sides of the fence when it comes to not being called and not calling others.
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Wow i am surprised..here i was waiting to get an ear bashing and i actually got support...Thank you gentleman!
Yes there are some issues but at the end of the day like i have said before it is usually as a result of human error along the way and it is usually not a deliberate act against the other agency...there is no harm trying to get things right 100% of the time but i can tell you now you are never going to have a 100% success rate at anything in life..and goodluck if you do, maybe you should go buy a lotto ticket :-D
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This not an ear-bashing, i'm just trying to get you to see my/our point of view.
Well theres no risk of being tied up, all it means is we're going until SAAS get there assess the situation and stop call fire/rescue. That eliminates being tied up.
The main idea behind this is that if fire/rescue are required it allows us to get there faster because the time delay of responding to the station has been eliminated. And furthermore if it is a fender bender then SAAS aren't going to attend and I'm sure the operator will only call the police. I don't understand why it seems like such a crazy idea to call for fire/rescue to all NON-FENDER BENDER VA's, the METS goto just about all in the metro area they disconnect the batteries and clean up the glass/oil and fuel.
It is not about the number of calls, and it isn't about the money being spent its about safety.
FAUX PAS you've manage to name every situation where SAAS would have put a stop call, it comes down to my main point it removes the delay. SAAS members should be able to appreciate this because when you arrive on scene if you need fire/rescue you currently say "will require ses/cfs on scene" and then you wait, in place you say "we don't require ses/cfs on scene" if you don't, that takes a whole 5 seconds on your portable and in the event you do need them you don't say anything and their on their way. Right behind you.. Brilliant where here to help...
Because I'd rather be stop called than dead!
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Hmm not sure how many SAAS people are on here but can someone from SAAS please tell me how many times you have been called to a fender bender cause "oh my neck hurts" or "I've got whiplash" so that they can try to claim compo.
On top of that they are called to all manner of things that are classed as an MVA or TRAFFIC have no requirement what so ever for a CFS brigade to attend eg. car vs pedestrian or car vs bike etc.
Oh and if I have managed to name every situation that SAAS would have stop called us on then what is the point of this conversation continuing, it is a waste of our time to be turned out...tell me what situation that we aren't required at that we don't get called for...other than for spills that usually come in an hour after SAAS are there so that we don't tie up our service for time that we will just be waiting around for.
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I'm a fan of the good old "RESPOND MVA Spillage, Map 000,0,0, From police, Minor accident, No injuries, NO spillage."
THAT needs a dual brigade response.
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No no we should respond all brigades in that Group in case the car and the ambulance blow up...hey we can always stop call them if it doesn't happen :evil:
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I'm a fan of BOMS and Procedure, but also of common sense.
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Now your just exaggerating, well I meant you covered a great majority.
There is no need to go getting narkey about this, its a discussion a democratic discussion not a totalitarianism where you get angry and beat down everyone for having an opinion.
And your missing my point it removes the delay...because the call comes in at time A SAAS arrives time B calls CFS/SES at time B and they arrive at time C, it arranges it so that CFS/SES get called at time A and arrive circa time B, if you don't need them you quickly get on your GRN and you say CFS/SES not needed and all is well.
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I'm not exaggerating... I have 5 times been to jobs where the page has *exactly* specified "No Injury, No spillage" and we have had, as per groups SOP's, two brigades turn out.
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not you FAUX PAS
Such occurrence would not surprise me some GO's/DGO's are CRANKS well most are...
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It appears as though i am not the only one who is exaggerating, that is the point i was trying to make!
And your missing my point it removes the delay...because the call comes in at time A SAAS arrives time B calls CFS/SES at time B and they arrive at time C, it arranges it so that CFS/SES get called at time A and arrive circa time B, if you don't need them you quickly get on your GRN and you say CFS/SES not needed and all is well.
So please can someone tell me why if we know that for these incident we are going to get stop called we need to be responded in the first place, that is the big question here. If it is a job where cfs are required then they are 99% of the time called at the time the emergency call is taken when the other agencies are responded, I know this because I have some in-site in to the day to day running of the comcens. People here in other forums go on and on about not getting things they think their brigade deserves well most of the reason why is because it comes down to money, money that is wasted going to stupid calls that CFS are not required at that they get stop called to.
Oh and i am not saying you can't have an opinion but having some fact to back it up is really helpful in other people people being able to understand your point of view.
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Nothing to do with cranks in the group. Idiots in Commcen...
Faux Pas, I'm all for not turning out when not necessary, but there have been many times where we have been turned out a significant time after the Ambos have, and have copped flak at the site for taking as long as we have. Not to mention the few times commcen have confirmed no entrapments, only to cop flak from the ambos for not bringing our rescue to the entrapment....
I know that Commcen can only go on what they have been told, but on the whole there is certainly room for improvement across the board. Especially in rural areas where that 10-15 minute gap can be pretty crucial.
Now I don't agree with a bunch of armchair comms operators commenting on the response and notification times of different agencies when they have no real life experience outside of being a volly at their local station...
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If the call center can get a rational answer out of the caller then I don't see why they can't not call the SES/CFS but I don't think they can most times.
Maybe some people will still be picky and complain about not being called after such occurrences but they will be a minority.
It isn't like there is a plague of VA's in the country areas, they occur randomly (DUH) but they are so unpredictable in nature that it is safest to have SES/CFS respond just in case you do in fact need them...if you don't well thats simple.
But the CFS/SES would appreciate some recognition more than is currently occurring because at the moment everyones trying to avoid them.
Bordem / Frustration and money is a small price to pay for the of chance that it goes pair shaped...
SAAS arrive and low an behold the car is on fire or the person is trapped Murphy oh my we need CFS/SES, but all is well because they are right behind you.
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Do you mean comms operators in brigades of comcen officers?
If you mean comcen operators...i don't agree that a bunch of vollies should comment on the response and notification times of different agencies when they have NO real life experience in a comcen! It works two ways.
Generally speaking most of the calls that have entrapments that CFS aren't called to have more to do with people in the incident not giving people information and sometimes when it comes to country jobs it can take longer than 5 minutes to process a call when one person is taking a call and another person dispatches the call to the correct location and by the correct means.
Maybe there is a reason that some country SAAS avoid some CFS people...I would rather be in an accident in the country and be in a bad way to only have SAAS rock up than to have some CFS brigade try to take a punt at how to give me adequate first aid while they are waiting for SAAS and me never being able to walk again or me ending up worse than if i was left alone, and i am not referring to all CFS brigades but i am sure we all know someone that we wouldn't want to turn up and an MVA they were involved in for safety's sake!
And yes i know at times it can work the other way with SAAS trying to pull a person out with out rescue being on scene yet but that is a different topic all together.
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I've posed this question before on this forum, and others....but I'll ask the question again.
Does anyone know how many MVA's there are each year in SA? Do people really want to be called to every single on of them?
It would appear that many support the concept of fire service being called to all of them, until a stop is given....
I'll let people have a think about numbers, and I'll get the precise figures for you tomorrow.....
Pip
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Do you mean comms operators in brigades of comcen officers?
If you mean comcen operators...i don't agree that a bunch of vollies should comment on the response and notification times of different agencies when they have NO real life experience in a comcen! It works two ways.
Generally speaking most of the calls that have entrapments that CFS aren't called to have more to do with people in the incident not giving people information and sometimes when it comes to country jobs it can take longer than 5 minutes to process a call when one person is taking a call and another person dispatches the call to the correct location and by the correct means.
Maybe there is a reason that some country SAAS avoid some CFS people...I would rather be in an accident in the country and be in a bad way to only have SAAS rock up than to have some CFS brigade try to take a punt at how to give me adequate first aid while they are waiting for SAAS and me never being able to walk again or me ending up worse than if i was left alone, and i am not referring to all CFS brigades but i am sure we all know someone that we wouldn't want to turn up and an MVA they were involved in for safety's sake!
And yes i know at times it can work the other way with SAAS trying to pull a person out with out rescue being on scene yet but that is a different topic all together.
Well I think you missed the point because what you said about the comcen is what I said about the comcen, and first aid is better than no aid. The gaps we are talking about are not 5 minutes thats acceptable the gaps we are talking about are a minimum of 15 minutes, and i'm not talking about having this implemented in our current system the call taker must have a button on his screen that says VA with a severity number assigned to based on the limited picture that can be painted, they push this button and the appropriate incidents are logged in the various agencies databases and the responses go out...you think not?. Question do you view your fellow CFS/SES volunteers as incompetent because I think that a professional such as a CFS/SES volunteer can go up to a victim and say "everything is okay the ambulance is on its way, stay with me don't fall asleep stay with me..." they're bleeding profusely out the leg you apply pressure..you do first aid...if these professional volunteers are not there to support them and the people on scene don't have a level head and are freaking out, they aren't going to be providing any support, the CFS/SES can provide that support, until SAAS arrives and we hand them over (except for the person who made first contact because the patient is now attached...well at least thats what I got taught) and I don't think that the CFS/SES volunteers would try and do the job of SAAS, I for one would not go poking and prodding, but I can get some information from them about where they are hurting what feels strange and if they pass out then I'm able to pass this information on to the Ambos.
And to the oh do you really want to be called to all the VA's i've addressed this a number of times. If I'm in a car accident and I'm stuck in the car theres no one around i'm passing in out of consciousness I manage to dial 000 and told them "...car accident..." **passes out** they trace the call, the ambulance comes and they wake me up I'm bleeding out, I'm trapped and the car is smoking, now if the ambos then respond fire/rescue odds are I'm going to sue the living crap out of the person responsible for the delay, for all sorts of reasons, damages loss of earnings, depression, anxiety, stress all that bull'. All because someone didn't want to risk stop calls. This line here the one we are weary to tread because of stop calls is the choice between our comfort and the comfort of the person who is the one off 1% odd statistic.. so is his/her life worth the comfort?
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Ok well if you think that you can get every agency comcen to get it right 100% of the time or even 99% of the time then I vote you should become our next Emergency Services Minister.
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Thanks....any percent above 50 is better than what we got now... :|
Well actually I think the government leave the services in a certain position of disarray, and they don't guarantee 100% success because of the of chance that they fuk up. At least in its current state they can say woops wow yeah your right to sue me it looks very much screwed up....oh well we'll fix it...much like the black Tuesday event...they will always leave the services a portion screwed to cover their own assess (for that of chance that their 100% guarantee was really only 99%)...it isn't really about the public its about the level of comfort the politicians enjoy!
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Well said Crownie - totally agree with your comments.
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put in a notification of issue and ye shall find (my group does one for every such occurance in our area).
I thought the law stated that it is illegal to act on the information found on a scanner/over the air, or am I mistaken....I'd be careful because some prick lawyer could turn it around and lock you up for breaking the law...our legal system is good like that :|
oh look a bush lawyer! ;)
it is ok for a group to monitor the pages. I will wait for the media (just to name one) to cop it first, they monitor and act on it all the time (and make no secret of it).
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Well actually I think the government leave the services in a certain position of disarray, and they don't guarantee 100% success because of the of chance that they fuk up. At least in its current state they can say woops wow yeah your right to sue me it looks very much screwed up....oh well we'll fix it...much like the black Tuesday event...they will always leave the services a portion screwed to cover their own assess (for that of chance that their 100% guarantee was really only 99%)...it isn't really about the public its about the level of comfort the politicians enjoy!
I have to say i think that is a load of crap. To say the the service/government do that is a joke. The service, no matter what it is now, was started by volunteer decades ago based on a need to help the community. I am sure that from the day that this service began they have been trying to achieve 100% in the service that they provide the public.
Have you ever heard of the Centre for Lessons Learned?? Probably not because it seems if you had of you might not have stated that the service/government are holding back so that they don't have to take any real responsibility. From my understanding any incident where there was a issue registered the CFS has put together a group of people to look at the problem and find a solution...ie. Bushfire Warning Messages! Before Jan 11 the Phase warning system was not really that adequate in the delivery of its messages...a range of stakeholders sat down after Jan 11 and identified problems and developed the new Bushfire Information and Warning System that is in place now that is marks above what some other states in Australia have. Now if the Government was holding things back why would they fund these programs??
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13:44:18 07-02-08 MU71 HEAD FOR MACCLESFIELD CAT 2 SAAS Murray Bridge
13:44:36 07-02-08 MU71 Cat2 Macclesfield Rd, Macclesfield 204 F10 SAAS Murray Bridge
13:44:40 07-02-08 MU71 Cat2 Macclesfield Rd, Macclesfield 204 F10 SAAS Road Crash Research
13:44:42 07-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC055 07/02/08 13:43,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,MACCLESFIELD ,MACCLESFIELD MAP 0 0 0 TG128,5KM TOWARDS STRATH. NO ENTRAPMENTS, NO I,NJURIES,MDWS19 MBKR19 MACC00 CFS Meadows Response
13:44:53 07-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC055 07/02/08 13:43,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,MACCLESFIELD ,MACCLESFIELD MAP 0 0 0 TG128,5KM TOWARDS STRATH. NO ENTRAPMENTS, NO I,NJURIES,MDWS19 MBKR19 MACC00 CFS Mount Barker Response
13:44:59 07-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC055 07/02/08 13:43,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,MACCLESFIELD ,MACCLESFIELD MAP 0 0 0 TG128,5KM TOWARDS STRATH. NO ENTRAPMENTS, NO I,NJURIES,MDWS19 MBKR19 MACC00 CFS Macclesfield Response
least it all happened the correct way today
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It happened correctly? Two rescue brigades and fire cover for "No injuries, No entrapments"
Nice work...
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It happened correctly as in every body got paged close together instead of half an hour apart as per usual 2 rescue and 1 fire cover is a bit of over kill yes but to over respond and stop call is better then to under respond and have to wait for crews
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Maybe Meadows and Barker were paged because they are on Dual Response for MVA's in Meadows area therefore comms were doing the right thing in responding both rescues.
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Maybe Meadows and Barker were paged because they are on Dual Response for MVA's in Meadows area therefore comms were doing the right thing in responding both rescues.
affirm, correct CFS response to a VA, one fire one rescue.... and since meadows are dual response all MVAs.
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Just a question...If we are having such a big whinge about CFS not being called to a job by SAAS why are you whinging about sending 2 rescues? What happens if there are two cars involved and there are 2 people trapped in separate cars, not fair for 1 person to get rescued and the other to have to wait..Better to respond 2 rescues and stop call one if you arrive on scene and a 2nd rescue is not required! :evil:
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why is that just for CFS? If there's 10 patients in 2 cars - why not send 10 ambulances ....."Just in case!"
you lot need to get off your high horses - demands for the "just in case" scenario are all very 1980's!
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I was joking...what you just said was exactly the point i was trying to make by my post hence the :evil: at the end!
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Hey Boredy you judging equestrian events now,and maybe their 1980s influence came from looking at ya Freddy Mercury picture, "its a kinda magic!" :-D
cheers Jaff
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I thought Freddie was a great singer :wink:
You blokes wouldn't have 10 buses in one place - except Adelaide and they are all tied up :-D
And I guess Horses for courses :evil:
cheers
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1916081 19:00:15 07-02-08 V181 Cat2 8 Bond Av, Victor Harbor 310 B10 DIFFICULT ACCESS SAAS Victor Harbour
1916084 19:06:28 07-02-08 V126 Cat2 8 Bond Av, Victor Harbor 310 B10 DIFFICULT ACCESS SAAS Victor Harbour
1905665 19:15:42 07-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC075 07/02/08 19:15,RESPOND Assist SAAS,8 BOND AV,VICTOR HARBOR MAP 310 B 10 TG195,URGENT PATIENT LIFT - IN CARDIAC ARREST,VHB719 MFS Victor Response
If SAAS dispatch knows it's going to be a difficult access case or a larger person, why don't they respond MFS/CFS/SES on receipt of call as well. Could easily help save a life.
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Same as the job at Paringa local SAAS asked for SES, someone responded a fire truck. Matter is being persued further.
Anyway won't comment on these issues any further as I'm starting to get tired of the crap that flows. And I'm sure another grievance report will be going in.
cheers Jono fair point though :wink:
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...
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Great post Will except you made another assumption - we already do!
And we get woken in the middle of the night for jobs you guys don't attend!
Obvious deceased body recoveries come to mind.
I took Jono's post as an innocent question, not an attack on your profession.
Anyway take it easy cheers
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Because you're relying on the person at the scene's interpretation of what is difficult access, then the call taker's, then the coordinator's, and sometimes even then the crews initial assessment. More often that not a single crew is fine, maybe a second crew to assist.
As an aside, if the patient really was in cardiac arrest, the job should have been Category 1, not 2. By the looks of the delay between V181 and V126, it may not have been originally, or it worsened once the crews were there. Heck, perhaps if the patient was conscious, the two SAAS crews might have been fine with moving them on their own.
Who's to say that the patient was conscious and 'fine' when the first crew arrived, then arrested, therefore the second SAAS crew... of course they may have been too busy starting treatment before even worrying about moving the patient.
You people really read way too much into every little thing, might be a good time to step away from the pager site and get a dose of reality.
For those that are bitching about not being told about every little VA or heavy patient / difficult access, let me know what area you're in, I'll happily wake you up for EVERY job we get. Just like the one a few weeks ago, call from SAPOL, car vs shrub, driver and car decamped. But of course SAPOL class it as a VA, so we attend also. Hands up anyone in here that would like to be woken up at 3am to go out to that?
I didn't think so.
</rant>
Dude, *shakes head* I'm not even going to bother
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Yep I'm with you Jono waste of time.
Take it easy mate cheers :wink:
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Fair enuff no one really liked John and Jane Doe...silly beggers...crashing cars who would do such a stupid thing..... :-o :|
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And we wont even go into trying to get sense out of someone at the scene to make a judgement call. As far as I can tell you are in trouble if you respond everyone in the first place and their not needed and you are in trouble if you only respond one service then the others are needed and paged. Talk about stuck between a rock and a hard place. Give everyone a fair go
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[quote author=mack .
no offence to anyone... but i think everyone knows theres an issue, and everyone has said many times.. just fill out the forms, dont spam the forum anymore..
ahhh my rant/spam message done.
[/quote]
Yep it seems that most people are sick and tired of the "SAAS Responding Other Services" forum being filled with spam about "SAAS Responding Other Services" because it should be in the ------ Weeelll buggered if I know. :-D I'am just joshing.
Cheers Jaff
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I was joking...what you just said was exactly the point i was trying to make by my post hence the :evil: at the end!
Yep I'm with you Jono waste of time.
Take it easy mate cheers :wink:
Dude, *shakes head* I'm not even going to bother
whizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........plop
.........you lot come in like a king tide!!
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Boredy, we do come in like a king tide!.........But only when you remember to page us. :-)
Now That whizzzzzzzzzz ......plop, thing you did was that you fishing or sitting down for number 1 and 2s :-D
Cheers Jaff
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Time for new forum topics people :P
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take it as you will jaff - if it gives you the s h i t s - take it as that....
otherwise....GO FISH!!
at the end of the day - we can all agree to disagree - obviously us SAASites don't see the same issues you lot see, but again - it's all a matter of relevance and relativity!
and lets face it, we're all subject to the same Bovine Faeces which management throw around when we do things which involve spending more money than we should just to provide a service to the community!
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take it as you will jaff - if it gives you the s h i t s - take it as that....
otherwise....GO FISH!!
at the end of the day - we can all agree to disagree - obviously us SAASites don't see the same issues you lot see, but again - it's all a matter of relevance and relativity!
and lets face it, we're all subject to the same Bovine Faeces which management throw around when we do things which involve spending more money than we should just to provide a service to the community!
Boredy, your Bovine Faeces and managements hissy fits statement, will be struggling to find a dissenting voice amongst this lot, apart from the paid staff and ministers people. :-D
And yes my slant on things may be different to yours,and thats okay, but we are both doing our jobs to the best of our abilities ,in a system that sometimes throws up roadblocks for us all.(hug) :-D
Cheers Jaff
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fair point.
while I'm paid to do my job - I don't have much recourse, but being a staunch union type - I understand that sometimes, being banded together and ensuring that the combined cohesive voice of your staff is heard is the only way for action to be taken to resolve issues.
while I know that the reasons for which CFS/SES/Etc volunteers do their roles is not primarily financial - sometimes the only way for action to be taken is to band together and make things happen!
At the end of the day - a volunteer staffed, government 'supported' organisation should have more pull than any union! If all CFS vol's walked off the job tomorrow -what would the government do to maintain fire and rescue cover in this state? MFS barely maintains it's staffing levels!!
/offtopic
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Trouble is that the motivation for CFS/SES volunteers is what prevents them walking off the job. At the end of the day most of us would use our own gear & do our best with what we have if the government withdrew support - after all thats how we started!
I did float the idea once as a hypothetical with a small group - it wouldn't happen!
The closest anyone has come is when the ACT rural officers all resigned their rank & handed in the keys to the appliances.
And the community don't care either, when local units/brigades are threatened with closure due to lack of community support people become vocal but it doesn't really improve the support.
So yep it a nice idea but in reality it won't happen, in all honesty the volunteers services in rural areas are slowly dying anyway - so any industrial action by vollies would accelerate the process.
cheers
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Will0936 as an ambo i have noticed and this happend again the other day that EOC dont listen to the crews on the streets and do what they want the other day i asked for a ICP for pain relief EOC sent me a Paramedic that couldnt do anything for my patient.
the Paramedics told EOC before leaving station that ICP was required they were told just go even though three ICP cars were available when they arrived EOC disregarded the paramedics protocols on pain relief and refused to send ICP.
I dont think EOC is guilt free all the time. also only 2 months ago i asked for SES for an urgent lift EOC sent paramedics who are half an hour away on a three when we could have had SES there lifted and been at hospital and almost clear when the paramedics arrived and belittled me my partner and the wife of the patient and were grumpy at us for calling us when we didnt want them.
so its NOT always CFS/SES/MFS that get the short end of the stick and not get responded it happens to SAAS crews as well.
will0936 if you wish to know more just let me know il let you know everything
cheers
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...
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i still hope EOC will listen to the crews that are requesting help of other agency's in regards to the lift we have called in SES/CFS/MFS every other time with out a problem even with both Barossa crews at home as we like to go with timely events and not have to wait around for para/ICP's that are going to be grumpy when they get here.
and yes we know about rumors m my team has started to fall apart due to them i just hope we can keep the car on the road
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...
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1908542 16:29:50 15-02-08 PN81 No crew rostered Urgent case in area contact comms ONLY if able to attend SAAS Penola
1908543 16:29:30 15-02-08 NG81 Cat 2 - Failed Secondary SAAS Nangwarry
1908548 16:29:16 15-02-08 MG84 Cat 2 - Failed Secondary SAAS Mt Gambier
1908551 16:28:28 15-02-08 LU81 Cat 2 - Failed Secondary SAAS Lucindale
Bus into tree. No fire or rescue response as yet. Only been 20 minutes...
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16:52:00 15-02-08 FLEX-A ALPHA 1600 MFS: *CFSRES INC045 15/02/08 16:47,RESPOND RCR,NARACOORTE CFS,NARACOORTE MAP 0 0 0 TG227,BUS V TREE LOCK HARBOUR LANE AT LAKEROY,NRCT19
-= CFS Naracoorte Response =-
Eventually is better than not at all.
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16:27:52 15-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC044 15/02/08 16:26,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,KAPUNDA CFS,KAPUNDA DISTRICT MAP 0 0 0 TG100,SINGLE VEHICLE ROLLOVER.AT THE FORD,ANGELBY RD.NIL INJURIES.FROM KAPUNDA,CAPTAIN,KAPD00 CFS Light Group Response
saas responded on radio and no rescue responded
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as i replied in the other thread SESRCR - why bother, i see you missed out on a call, but if Kapunda Captain is on scene saying its a spill only...
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So Mack, next time I arrive on a job & no risk of fire I put in a stop call on fire response?
Tried that once Adelaide fire would not accept it - we have done many "Spill only" jobs.
You guys whinge when other services don't follow procedures, but you guys just do your own thing!
But it would be nice if RESCUE made the decision to respond or not. See Murray Bridge SES when they get a job, pager message - UM or deputy contact comms, makes the decision to respond or not based on info supplied -if not required Stop call sent via pager. Professional & by the book :-D
Anyway who cares? I don't because we do things properly around here :wink:
cheers
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So Mack, next time I arrive on a job & no risk of fire I put in a stop call on fire response?
Tried that once Adelaide fire would not accept it - we have done many "Spill only" jobs.
You guys whinge when other services don't follow procedures, but you guys just do your own thing!
Your missing the point Chook, if there is an officer on scene reporting the incident, telling Adelaide Fire there is no entrapment then i see no reason to respond rescue.
Re; fire coverage, go for it... not my problem. Id rather get stop called than get all the way out to an incident that didnt require our attendance... I guess it just depends on whether you deem it safe.
I think your trying to stir up an SES Vs CFS/MFS arguement with the wrong person here mate???? [if thats what your trying to do???]
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No not at all Rescue should have been contacted, told the situation & given the choice to respond at a low priority or don't respond.
Given the same situation I would make an assessment on the info & decide not to respond.
Trouble with one service making those decisions on behalf of another service is that occasionally they get it wrong. And these type discussions start :-D
I'm quite sure the Kapunda captain is a competent & Honourable person.
Sadly there has been occasions where others are not.
And on the subject of stopping a fire response, I don't I just let them know a P1 response isn't required and let them make their own decision.
Anyway as I said previously personally I don't care, just the protocols are in place for a reason and they should be followed - otherwise get rid of the protocols :wink:
Anyway cheers Mack
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Trouble with one service making those decisions on behalf of another service is that occasionally they get it wrong. And these type discussions start :-D
and on there head be it ;)
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Too true :-D
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what dose it say in the RCR directory the service receiving the call WILL respond fire,sapol,saas and first rescue regardless of the incident status. the officer on scene does not understand RCR and has no intension of trying to. and to top it of the car was in a creek and the tow truck just managed to retrieve the car
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Mate your wasting your time :wink:
It appears rules are meant to be broken.
I would save my breath & get your boss to to a grievance report (East region is averaging 8 a week)
Its a pointless exercise talking about it on here - hopefully our service will get enough filtereds one day to sought it all out for good :evil:
Maybe after we have all of the meetings we were promised :-D
cheers
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I'm sorry I must have missed it. Where is the protocol dictating that EVERY vehicle accident MUST have Police, Fire, Ambulance AND Rescue responded?
I was under the impression that Rescue was called if there was the possibility of an entrapment, be it either the caller is unsure or confirms there is an entrapment.
If I came across an accident, called it in, "Spill only, all persons out of vehicle, etc etc" and then had the local rescue boys come whipping around the corner, I would be the one putting in a grievance form.
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there is a paragraph in the RCR directory that talks about standards of response.
also had the R2 cfs commander ask me last night why my unit had been defaulting to nuri so much in the last six months. i siad that we hadn't been defaulting. he asked why Nuri were getting so many jobs close to kapunda i siadi i didnt know but we havent been getting responded to RCR in our area he is looking in to it as far as i know
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Apparently the issues with "not being responded" are being dealt with at the highest levels.
If future funding of our units will be based on numbers of responses per year & some other stuff, then"the operator pushed the wrong button" will have a dramatic impact.
It is interesting that a CFS commander is even interested unless they are fishing for dirt :wink:
Anyway mate I've been told its "being dealt with".
Not much point saying too much more about it publically though :evil:
cheers
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yeah no worries i guess he was interested in it from CFS view anyways lets see what happens
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No worries :wink:
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SESRCR, go and get your head read mate. The job you're crying about was not a rescue job and 'First Rescue' has no reason to be responded. As has been suggested before, would you like to be responded to every single little vehicle accident? If you really do, maybe you need something better to do with your time.
I know about the standards of response that relate to a 'Rescue' Incident. A vehicle accident with no-one trapped is most certainly NOT a rescue incident.
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You SES guys are kidding aren't you, its in the disptach rules, if there is a fire service officer on scene and he states that there is no entrapment, eg there is no one in the car, then you only need to respond fire cover. What is an SES truck gonna do besides looking, unbeleivable, you guys are a joke !!
As for the Murray Bridge example, if you think thats the way to run things, then thank god I am not covered by SES rescue in any areas I normally drive, how many times do we rock up to jobs when SAPOL have stated no entrapments and, blam, someone trapped.
Actually I would crash in Laura, those SES guys are pretty decent. Thankfully I noramlly deal with Noarlunga SES, there are some gun operators.
Sheesh, and you guys want us to give you respect. I am finding it very hard going from the posts on this site.
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Pumprescue, a normal overeaction. MurrayBridge also recon the job & they are "gun operators"! And have a read of your own post - you don't trust SAPOL, but we are supposed to trust you? I've seen non rescue firies trying to open doors with a hooligan, no stablisation, no nothin & no reason!
No offence but there are plenty of teams around as good as Laura they just don't bother with competitions :wink:
And Fire Service officers do get it wrong!
And I for one am not interested if you take us seriously or not!
And that is not how I read the rules - anyhow who cares?
I certainly don't! As I said previously you guys keep on doing what you are doing as the heads of our three organisations will be soughting out all of this crap.
While I agree in this instance rescue was not required based on the facts, but the priniciples are the same!
Anyway we have moved on, can't you?
be cool :wink:
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you don't trust SAPOL, but we are supposed to trust you?
you dont trust anyone :evil:
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Simple rule if there is someone still in the car they may be trapped , doesnt matter what anyone says.
Simple rule number 2 if everyone is out of the vehicle then there are obviously no entrapments and therefore there is no requirement for a rescue resource.
The old KISS principle...
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Thats pretty much how its supposed to work, I like how you put it Uniden.
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Simple rule if there is someone still in the car they may be trapped , doesnt matter what anyone says.
Simple rule number 2 if everyone is out of the vehicle then there are obviously no entrapments and therefore there is no requirement for a rescue resource.
The old KISS principle...
yes -but are they trapped with compression? or just trapped because someone needs to jemmy open a door? I've done plenty of RCR as a paramedic - with just the jemmy bar that is on every ambulance!
I have never had to wait for rescue to do something - EVER! In Metro areas - pretty much all MFS light pumps have enough rescue gear!
The only time I had an issue with rescue (in country area) was when there was no hydraulic cutters- Pneumatic gear took AGES (over an hour to cut the side out of a car in a simple T-bone.) - but we and the coppers kicked up a big stink through the proper channels and the appropriate CFS brigade magically recieved hydraulic gear shortly thereafter!
The cynic in me would suggest that anyone making out of context and ill-informed comments about how things "should" happen - are either new or lacking any credible experience......or just have a jack up their a r s e because they haven't been accepted to MFS after applying 46 times...............
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Sorry Matrix can't let that go - Never applied for MFS & have no wish to, have had plenty of credible experience both good & bad!
For example watched your blokes drag a rather large, elderly gentleman over a centre consol. No medical reason (not going into arrest or anything) just couldn't be bothered waiting for rescue which was less than 5 minutes away (they were informed of this). Couldn't get the RHS Door open (T-Boned).
As I said previously firies (non rescue) trying to open a door with a hooligan, car unstable, possible spinal.
Roof folded down on to a PT's head so far that his airway couldn't be be cleared properly & a Holmatro set that wouldn't start - need I go on!
I for one never joined the service to do RCR, don't really care who does what, don't have a jack up my filtered about the Mets.
All I have said all along is there is a process that has been developed over a number of years that needs to be followed. And if you and your mates choose not to follow it so be it! When it all goes pear shaped - Who cares as it won't be me or my contempories explaining why!
By the way the guys from your lot up here don't share your views :wink:
And on that happy note bye - bye for now cheers
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farkin AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaayyyy.....
:roll:
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Actually I would crash in Laura, those SES guys are pretty decent.
Good luck to you.....From what I have seen and heard......
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Next prang I get into, regardless of whose area its in, I'm just going to scream for the blokes to give me the gear and I'll cut myself out.
Makes things nice and simple!
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KISS :-D Gives a shout I'd like to see that :wink:
cheers Numbers
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For example watched your blokes drag a rather large, elderly gentleman over a centre consol. No medical reason (not going into arrest or anything) just couldn't be bothered waiting for rescue which was less than 5 minutes away (they were informed of this). Couldn't get the RHS Door open (T-Boned).
As I said previously firies (non rescue) trying to open a door with a hooligan, car unstable, possible spinal.
Roof folded down on to a PT's head so far that his airway couldn't be be cleared properly & a Holmatro set that wouldn't start - need I go on!
er yes - perhaps I should have clarified that to note that my comment was in reference to low speed VA's - not the highway work which I rarely every do now!
I guess I forget that not everyone intrinsically takes into consideration the basic safety which surrounds RCR/extrication!
yes - there will always be some clowns who are too impatient to wait - but again, I forget that there are some who don't intrinsically have any common-sense!
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Well said Matrix - cheers
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Another thing I thought of was un-inflated airbags, the batteries need to be disconnected and in most cases I think :| SAAS or whoever roll the seat back...does that effect the spinal issues if they're present?. And if your not careful that airbag could launch your head into the victims at 300km/h....and they don't use airbag suppressors anymore because apparently when the airbag detonates with the restraint on it ricochets the steering column into the floor it bounces up and spears you in the head!!!!NICE :| NOT
I know SAAS are quite capable of disconnecting batteries though they have bigger priorities, but if the patient is not trapped yet has a spinal injury so you can't roll the seat back would you call for further assistance or would they disconnect it themselves? RCR operators how do you go about isolating airbags?
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I'm no RCR expert - and had concerns re: non-deployed airbags after attending a highspeed VA in which the airbags HAD NOT deployed.
I followed it up and was duly informed by a number of various MAJOR Australian motor company technical staff that the airbags are isolated when the ignition is off.
is this the case or not?
either way - my head doesn't ever get between a patient and the steering wheel...........
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Yes & No yes the ignition switch isolates the air bag control modules, however the propellant charge is still "live" as is the seat belt pretensioners etc.
Therefore a stray spark may set it off & I did say may!
The current thinking is Keep out off it's deployment path! You are correct - the use of restraint systems for airbags is no longer practiced.
Also madly rushing in & disconnecting batteries is also not encouraged, as modern seat adjustments, windows etc all need electricity to work & if you disconnect the battery you loose that option (reconnection is not encouraged!).
Going forward the modern cars are moving batteries to the rear of the vehicle & it is likely the days of the old 12 volt battery are numbered, due to the increasing technology requiring more power.
The main point is Keep out of the deployment path! Simple.
There is a lot of urban myths about the whole subject, that is why up to date training is a must.
Anyway I hope that helps, I'm sure the more knowledgable of us can add more :wink:
cheers
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Im hearing there is a bit of a storm brewing ,the horses are getting edgy in the stalls,the dogs are barking incessantly and theres to be talks in high places and where is my dang gone hat,watch this space!
Cheers Jaff
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Also I think there is a full moon :-D
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1924962 22:15:48 21-02-08 BE171 Cat2 Bookpurnong Rd, Loxton C145 L3 TRAFFIC SAAS Road Crash Research
1918570 22:15:33 21-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC070 21/02/08 22:14,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,BOOKPURNONG RD,LOXTON MAP 0 O 0 TG193,,LOX029 LOX628 MFS Loxton Response
1928012 22:15:22 21-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC070 21/02/08 22:14,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,BOOKPURNONG RD,LOXTON MAP 0 O 0 TG193,,LOX029 LOX628 SES East Region
1915540 22:15:20 21-02-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC070 21/02/08 22:14,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,BOOKPURNONG RD,LOXTON MAP 0 O 0 TG193,,LOX029 LOX628 SES Loxton Response
Now thats more like it 8-)
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Good to see the research crew getting turned out...
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research is for info only
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research is for info only
i think that was numbers point... the berri crew was turned out by radio some time earlier it would seem, that page is just to the road crash info guys.
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Yep, my point exactly.
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21:19:20 26-02-08 SR181 Cat2 Blanchetown-swan Reach Rd, Swan Reach TRAFFIC SAAS Swan Reach
21:26:20 26-02-08 SR181 ONLY 1 PERSON TARCY HAS CALLED IN FOR MVA ON BLANCHETOWN ROAD SAAS Swan Reach
21:36:20 26-02-08 SR181 TRACY ADVISES FULL CREW - NOBODY ON AIR YET - ARE YOU STILL ON WAY IN TO STATION? COMMS SAAS Swan Reach
Are they going to get CFS or SES on the road tonight or not
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just cause it is has traffic or police required doesn't mean that CFS and SES are going to be responded i dont have the scanner on so dont have full details does anybody know what the job is. is it a RCR or is it a motorbike rider off?????
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Im hearing there is a bit of a storm brewing ,the horses are getting edgy in the stalls,the dogs are barking incessantly and theres to be talks in high places and where is my dang gone hat,watch this space!
Cheers Jaff
Well it happened, now for the washup. :evil:
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It was a MVA car not drivable people had now where to go and no way of getting there.
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Can anyone explain the time discrepancy for an incident that occurred this morning, ambos responded to car rollover on the Strathalbyn-Meadows road at0225hrs. CFS and SES were responded to inc no 7 at 0259hrs car rollover Strathalbyn-Meadows road 4kms towards Meadows ,I assume the same incident.
That unless my maths is incorrect is a delay of response time of 34mins.
Question do SAPOL or SAAS carry dry powder fire extinguishers for perhaps using in the unfortunate event of an entrapment with a fire starting and no fire cover on scene.
Question do SAPOL or SAAS as a procedure at an accident scene check that the car involved ignition is turned off and in gear and handbrake applied.
this happens all the time and not even a greivence report seems to do anything
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That comment, and this thread, has been stagnent and is over a year old.. FYI ..
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I wonder how long before the fire service that was asked by a SAAS crew at 13:52 hrs to be responded will have to wait to be paged almost an hour ago to a fatal at Blackfellows Creek :?
There's more http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25663816-5006301,00.html
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Sounds a bit like one a few weeks ago in our area, SAAS arrive at a car v truck and requested the fire service, no response ever happened though.
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Sadly we learnt tonight that the person killed at that job at Yundi was a friend of ours brother :-(
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Sounds a bit like one a few weeks ago in our area, SAAS arrive at a car v truck and requested the fire service, no response ever happened though.
yeah i heard about that from the crew... requested attendance, but there comms never passed it on
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not an unusual occurance.
SAPOL comms isn't much better tho
still...with everything going on -Adel Fire and their handful of calls a day Vs the volume that SAAS and SAPOL comms deal with on a daily basis could probably go a fair way toward explaining why it happens. SYSTEMS STATUS MANAGEMENT MY ARSE!
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Boredy....defending SAAS Comms?....wow....must print that and send it through...lol
You've chaaaaanged :evil:
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Fair call though.. - Could you imagine what would happen if MFS took 1200 calls in a day..
*shudders*
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Boredy....defending SAAS Comms?....wow....must print that and send it through...lol
You've chaaaaanged :evil:
**actively cutting off my little finger as I type this**
yes..it's strange!
however...the knucklheads they've got employed (most of them...not all - I know a small number personally and those ones do a good job.....) wouldn't have a clue as to how their role relates to real time (ie: what happens on the road.)
while you can can the individuals for it, the management up there need a rocket under them with a stark reminder that response times, while they are the only current measure of performance, are not true indicators of patient care outcomes.
sadly...methinks this will only happen via a medium which is commonly referred to as the CORONERS COURT.
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This was on the ABC today, it sounds like the stuff that has been discussed on here for the last few years but with SAPOL Comm's rather than SAAS.
New triple-0 system a danger: CFS officer
A Country Fire Service (CFS) group officer says a centralisation of the south-east's police communications to Adelaide has shown itself to be severely flawed.
Since Sunday, all emergency triple-0 calls in the south-east service area of South Australia have been diverted to a call centre in Adelaide and relevant emergency service crews are then contacted.
Michael Kemp from the CFS says an incident on Tuesday morning made clear how dangerous the new system is.
He says ambulance officers were notified of a crash near Beachport about 30 minutes before the call centre alerted fire crews to the potentially hazardous situation.
Mr Kemp says it was a gross oversight.
"It could actually prove to be fatal for those people actually working on it," he said.
"We have the expertise to be able to protect those people.
"In our eyes it's totally unacceptable, people's lives are being put at risk by the fire service not being told about it."
Mr Kemp says the government policy of centralising personnel and services in Adelaide must be reviewed.
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pfft happens all the time, our brigade has even spoken to the higher ups when they have visited and got the usual "oh well" shrug.
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Sounds like a broken record, I guess at least it takes the heat off Adelaide Fire for a day or 2. Not sure how long sapol had it?
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Wonder if he did his research and worked out whether SAAS or SAPOL were the initial call takers.
Wouldn't want anyone running off half cocked to the media to push another agenda :evil: